21 replies to this topic

[osris]

Does the rate at which we age increase as we get older?

 

I ask because until I was 45, I looked 35, and from then on I looked older with each year.

 

I heard somewhere, I forget where, that after the age of 50 our age rate increases almost double that of before 50. Is that true?

[Mind]

Dr. Rose at UC Irvine would argue that the rate of aging plateaus as we get very old.

[osris]

Does he mention what age that occurs around?

[Dorian Grey]

From my own experience (66 years old) aging is not linear.  My 20s & 30s were very much the same, apart from the wisdom that comes over time.  Suddenly, right at 40, I noticed my first gray hair coming in, and I could no longer read close-up.  Got my first bifocals.  Also started using Viagra, more as an insurance med than for basic ability to perform.  

 

Cruising through my 40s & 50s, I didn't have a lot of changes.  I recall at 60, marveling at my balance, hearing and ability to climb the 100 steps up to the top of the San Diego convention center, without even becoming winded.  I felt about the same at 60 as I did at 40.  Suddenly, in my early 60s, things started going South.  I had a retinal tear, & now have persistent floaters.  I used to enjoy a pub lunch with a couple of pints once a week, but suddenly found I was zombified for a couple of hours afterwards and quit this simple pleasure.  

 

Muscles became noticeably weaker from 60-65, & my a$$ seemed to flatten.  Pants fall down now without cinching my belt higher up over my hips.  Now I know why old men hike the waistline of their pants up like they do.  I also have a paunch now, though my weight is the same.  Sense of smell is greatly diminished.  This seemed to happen overnight (pre-COVID).  I used to wax my car twice a year, and this hasn't happened since 2018.  

 

I retired at 62, as I couldn't stand the 12 hour days on my feet anymore.  Life has become very routine.  I still go out to lunch every day, but have started napping for 30 minutes when I get home.  This may be my cat's fault!  I've got money, but I really don't feel like travelling, like I used to dream of when younger & poorer.  

 

I'm very thankful my health is still remarkably good. Had my first episode of angina in January...  What fresh hell is this?  Oh well; my dad got cancer at 67, & he never smoked or drank much at all.  They say if you reach your senior years, it's either cancer or heart disease that takes you out.  Given a choice, I'll choose heart disease.  A stent or bypass surgery should give me another decade if I don't crump suddenly with a massive MI.  

 

Hope this isn't too depressing.  I've had a great life, and strangely am no longer frightened of dying.  I fear only chronic illness & disease, which I still have not seen.  

 

Bottom line...  No, aging is not linear.  It goes in spurts, much like the growth spurt of adolescents & puberty.  You're just cruising along, and all of a sudden, you wake up one day and you're old!  

[Mind]

From my own experience (66 years old) aging is not linear.  My 20s & 30s were very much the same, apart from the wisdom that comes over time.  Suddenly, right at 40, I noticed my first gray hair coming in, and I could no longer read close-up.  Got my first bifocals.  Also started using Viagra, more as an insurance med than for basic ability to perform.  

 

Cruising through my 40s & 50s, I didn't have a lot of changes.  I recall at 60, marveling at my balance, hearing and ability to climb the 100 steps up to the top of the San Diego convention center, without even becoming winded.  I felt about the same at 60 as I did at 40.  Suddenly, in my early 60s, things started going South.  I had a retinal tear, & now have persistent floaters.  I used to enjoy a pub lunch with a couple of pints once a week, but suddenly found I was zombified for a couple of hours afterwards and quit this simple pleasure.  

 

Muscles became noticeably weaker from 60-65, & my a$$ seemed to flatten.  Pants fall down now without cinching my belt higher up over my hips.  Now I know why old men hike the waistline of their pants up like they do.  I also have a paunch now, though my weight is the same.  Sense of smell is greatly diminished.  This seemed to happen overnight (pre-COVID).  I used to wax my car twice a year, and this hasn't happened since 2018.  

 

I retired at 62, as I couldn't stand the 12 hour days on my feet anymore.  Life has become very routine.  I still go out to lunch every day, but have started napping for 30 minutes when I get home.  This may be my cat's fault!  I've got money, but I really don't feel like travelling, like I used to dream of when younger & poorer.  

 

I'm very thankful my health is still remarkably good. Had my first episode of angina in January...  What fresh hell is this?  Oh well; my dad got cancer at 67, & he never smoked or drank much at all.  They say if you reach your senior years, it's either cancer or heart disease that takes you out.  Given a choice, I'll choose heart disease.  A stent or bypass surgery should give me another decade if I don't crump suddenly with a massive MI.  

 

Hope this isn't too depressing.  I've had a great life, and strangely am no longer frightened of dying.  I fear only chronic illness & disease, which I still have not seen.  

 

Bottom line...  No, aging is not linear.  It goes in spurts, much like the growth spurt of adolescents & puberty.  You're just cruising along, and all of a sudden, you wake up one day and you're old!  

 

Thanks for sharing this - a real account of how it feels to get old. No sugar-coating it.

 

One thing I often wonder about it when it comes to aging - do we really accept it as a natural course of events (as we get older), or is it a side effect of an aging brain/nervous system? We think slower, we can't remember things as well, we speak slower, etc. I think that if our brain was still as sharp as it was when we were younger, we would never accept all of the ailments of aging. When we suffered some ailment, we would immediately be horrified and try to fix it. Because our senses are dulled as we age, we don't realize how bad our condition is.

Edited by Mind, 22 April 2023 - 10:14 AM.

[hplus]

This is from a recent paper by Steve Horvath, the inventor of the epigenetic clock:

 

In young animals, DNAm age moves faster than physical time whereas in very old rats DNAm age enters a virtual plateau.

 

 

DNAm stands for blood DNA methylation. To put it simply, young animals undergo quicker aging, and their biological age comes to a halt after a particular point in time. Recent research indicates that the aging process is most rapid during embryogenesis, that is before we are born.

 

Explain that with the wear and tear theory of aging.

[Rocket]

I think aging does speed up around 35 and then slowly slows down. The difference between 35 and 45 is big. The difference between 100 and 90 not so great. Plenty of 35 year old athletes. Hardly any at 45. I think it slows down around 65. 35 to 65 is nothing but a freefall of health

Edited by Rocket, 01 May 2023 - 01:01 AM.

[hplus]

I think aging does speed up around 35 and then slowly slows down. The difference between 35 and 45 is big. The difference between 100 and 90 not so great. Plenty of 35 year old athletes. Hardly any at 45. I think it slows down around 65. 35 to 65 is nothing but a freefall of health

 

From my own experience (66 years old) aging is not linear.  My 20s & 30s were very much the same, apart from the wisdom that comes over time.  Suddenly, right at 40, I noticed my first gray hair coming in, and I could no longer read close-up.  Got my first bifocals.  Also started using Viagra, more as an insurance med than for basic ability to perform.  

 

It's natural to feel like aging is speeding up when you start to notice the negative impacts of getting older for the first time in your life. However, that doesn't mean that aging accelerates. Remember when you were a child? Back then, you were eager to age quickly, as you longed to grow bigger, stronger, and more independent. Many people mistakenly associate aging only with its negative consequences. As time goes on, the feeling of aging seems to quicken as one's physical condition gradually declines.

 

However, scientists are discovering more evidence that aging is a natural process that begins 4.5-10.5 days after the union of the sperm and egg cells. Initially, the aging process occurs at a rapid pace, but as time goes on, it gradually slows down until it eventually comes to a halt. Numerous supercentenarians have effectively halted the aging process completely. They die because systemic damage in one of their organs is not repaired. As we age, our body's ability to repair damage gradually decreases due to programmed changes in the developmental process. As people reach the age of 100, most of their stem cells have been programmatically eliminated, resulting in a decreased ability to repair organs.

Edited by hplus, 01 May 2023 - 08:43 AM.

[hplus]

Thanks for sharing this - a real account of how it feels to get old. No sugar-coating it.

 

One thing I often wonder about it when it comes to aging - do we really accept it as a natural course of events (as we get older), or is it a side effect of an aging brain/nervous system? We think slower, we can't remember things as well, we speak slower, etc. I think that if our brain was still as sharp as it was when we were younger, we would never accept all of the ailments of aging. When we suffered some ailment, we would immediately be horrified and try to fix it. Because our senses are dulled as we age, we don't realize how bad our condition is.

 

There are a significant number of elderly individuals who are very sharp and still accept the "natural course of events." In fact, aging is a natural process. The flaw here is that everything that is natural is good. 

 

Currently, a lot of individuals hold the belief that they are powerless when it comes to combating the effects of aging, therefore they resign themselves to accepting the unavoidable. In general, the strategy is not bad. The only flaw here is that aging really is inevitable. In my opinion, if a cure for aging becomes available, most people may no longer be willing to accept the natural process of aging.

[Rocket]

There are a significant number of elderly individuals who are very sharp and still accept the "natural course of events." In fact, aging is a natural process. The flaw here is that everything that is natural is good.

Currently, a lot of individuals hold the belief that they are powerless when it comes to combating the effects of aging, therefore they resign themselves to accepting the unavoidable. In general, the strategy is not bad. The only flaw here is that aging really is inevitable. In my opinion, if a cure for aging becomes available, most people may no longer be willing to accept the natural process of aging.

People have to accept the fact that life is short and there is no hope of ever living to be 305 for example in your body. Brain space is limited regardless of how slow you can reduce aging even to a crawl. You don't have infinite storage in the brain to live very long. After all why would nature give is brains capable of going to 200 when the body gives out at 80? There's no reason to evolve such a brain. The best you can hope for is a life with a longer healthspan

[hplus]

People have to accept the fact that life is short and there is no hope of ever living to be 305 for example in your body. Brain space is limited regardless of how slow you can reduce aging even to a crawl. You don't have infinite storage in the brain to live very long. After all why would nature give is brains capable of going to 200 when the body gives out at 80? There's no reason to evolve such a brain. The best you can hope for is a life with a longer healthspan

 

Why is "infinite storage" a requirement? It's natural to forget some memories as time passes. The brain is not a computer that stores every piece of information you entered until the storage limit is reached.

 

Perhaps accepting the brevity of life can bring you some solace at present, but regrettably, it cannot alter the reality that you will end up in a nursing home soon, restricted to a wheelchair, saliva drooling out of your mouth, and your "evolved" brain not even being able to remember your own name. This is the best you can hope for if we don't find a cure for the aging disease soon.

[Rocket]

Why is "infinite storage" a requirement? It's natural to forget some memories as time passes. The brain is not a computer that stores every piece of information you entered until the storage limit is reached.

Perhaps accepting the brevity of life can bring you some solace at present, but regrettably, it cannot alter the reality that you will end up in a nursing home soon, restricted to a wheelchair, saliva drooling out of your mouth, and your "evolved" brain not even being able to remember your own name. This is the best you can hope for if we don't find a cure for the aging disease soon.

What are you when every hundred and fifty years or so you forget everything you learned including who you are? Are you even the same person? What's the point? Essentially it's like reincarnation in the same body. you're making assumptions about how the brain works without any evidence.

As I said, you need to expand healthspan so you don't end up in a nursing home. I think I was clear.

[hplus]

What are you when every hundred and fifty years or so you forget everything you learned including who you are? Are you even the same person? What's the point? Essentially it's like reincarnation in the same body. you're making assumptions about how the brain works without any evidence.

As I said, you need to expand healthspan so you don't end up in a nursing home. I think I was clear.

 

I think you didn't get the point. It is not that you forget things every hundred years or so. Every second, an enormous amount of information floods your brain, but most of it is quickly discarded. The remaining information is constantly being manipulated. According to most brain scientists, the brain doesn't actually store information. Rather, information in the brain is constantly in a state of flux. 

 

Try to recall the attire of everyone you encountered yesterday. It is all gone. If you captured images with your smartphone, then you still possess the data, as only computers are capable of storing information.

 

If you converse with ChatGPT, which employs advanced neural networks to process data, you may also encounter this phenomenon. If you ask the same question twice, you may receive a different answer. 

 

And I don't make these things up. During my studies at the University, I delved extensively into the brain sciences and my Master's thesis focused on the processing of language information by neural networks. There is no need for providing evidence. Just grab an arbitrary textbook about brain science near you.

 

As to personal identity, philosophers have discussed this for ages and I have attended a few seminars on this topic myself. I can tell you that this question is entirely unresolved. My personal view is that I am a totally different person compared to who I was a year ago. I feel grateful to have been given permission to use the same passport as my predecessors. ;-)

 

And what's the use of prolonging your healthspan if you only end up in a nursing home a few years later anyway? If I didn't have faith in our progress towards discovering a cure for aging, I would rather eat what I want, not torture myself with exercise, and party every night, thereby minimizing my healthspan and maximizing my funspan. 

[Hebbeh]

I understand what you're saying to a point. But if we don't permanently retain what our brain processes, what point is there in going to university and learning anything new if it's just to be discarded?

I'm 66 and I can still vividly recall experiences throughout my life all the way back to 4 years old...62 years ago and everything in-between. And I don't believe that's uncommon. Fortunately I can recall much of what I've learned over my lifetime or I wouldn't be able to function. In fact, hopefully most of us never stop learning but I don't think it's because we've discarded what we've learned in the past.

In regards to your silly example of the attire of everyone I met yesterday, like everything else, it would depend on whether I found it interesting or important enough to take note. In some cases I may find it interesting though, depending on the person I met and what they were wearing.
However I could remember them all if I cared to.

My wife has an uncanny ability to remember dates and will frequently tell me exactly where she was and what she was doing on any particular day from years and years ago. She's amazed me with that many times. Apparently she is able to connect places and experiences with dates in her brain while I find dates not particularly important or useful.

And as far as you becoming a different person through your experiences, just like ChatGPT, I would hope that we all intellectually grow throughout our lives from our experiences and wisdom gained. Of course we're not the same person now than when we were 4, 14, 24, or 64.

And like ChatGPT, most will find that their viewpoints, opinions, and how they approach problems and the solutions they apply will change throughout their life as they gain knowledge and wisdom.

Even negative experiences serve a purpose and may be worth committing to memory. None of us would probably be here if ancient man hadn't learned to survive by remembering what not to do.

It's interesting how many teens think they have all the answers and how their views change 20,30,40,50 years later.

None of this would be possible if our brain was discarding any of our thoughts we've deemed important enough to keep.

And it's not just the thoughts we find important that we retain.
Just like my example of remembering all the experiences of my childhood even though most no longer serve a useful purpose, my brain will simply not discard them. They are permanently a part of me and like all my other experiences throughout my 66 years, have slowly evolved who I am. And that wouldn't be the case if my brain was discarding the life I've lived.

[hplus]

I understand what you're saying to a point. But if we don't permanently retain what our brain processes, what point is there in going to university and learning anything new if it's just to be discarded?

 

Studying is more than just memorizing facts, despite the emphasis exams may place on it. For the facts, we have Google and now ChagGPT. As you study, you develop and refine your skills through the knowledge you acquire. Having more experience can significantly enhance your performance, even if a considerable amount of information has been deleted or forgotten.

 

In regards to your silly example of the attire of everyone I met yesterday, like everything else, it would depend on whether I found it interesting or important enough to take note. In some cases I may find it interesting though, depending on the person I met and what they were wearing.

However I could remember them all if I cared to.

 

You will laugh, but my silly example is typical for peer-reviewed studies within the field of Cognitive Science.

 

Just like my example of remembering all the experiences of my childhood even though most no longer serve a useful purpose, my brain will simply not discard them. They are permanently a part of me and like all my other experiences throughout my 66 years, have slowly evolved who I am. And that wouldn't be the case if my brain was discarding the life I've lived.

 

Exactly! The experiences you've had in the past have shaped you into the person you are today, even though many of the specific details may have faded from memory. As a result, you are a different individual compared to who you were twenty years ago. If scientists find a cure for aging in time, in 200 years, you would be a completely different version of yourself. And as far as your brain is concerned, this can continue forever.

[QuestforLife]

I think it is a valid point that what you retain is not irreducible data per se, as when you come to understand something more deeply, you are able to simplify it. So you won't necessary lose information if you live to be 200, it will just undergo a form of compression. And with the correct trigger, that can be 'unzipped' with many more details returning. The brain really isn't very well understood, so we shouldn't worry too much about its capacity when discussing extending the life of the whole body (including brain). 

[Rocket]

If you don't solve dementia, Alzheimer's, loss of brain cells with age, demyelination, there's not any point in extending lifespan. why should we expect the brain to last 200 years when people have no reason to evolve such a brain?

[QuestforLife]

If you don't solve dementia, Alzheimer's, loss of brain cells with age, demyelination, there's not any point in extending lifespan. why should we expect the brain to last 200 years when people have no reason to evolve such a brain?

 

Why should any of the body last for 200 years? It clearly is not intended to, but if - a big if - the body can be rejuvenated, there is no reason to expect the brain not to be. I've already addressed the question of capacity - we don't know what its capacity is anyway. 

[MikeDC]

Does the rate at which we age increase as we get older?

I ask because until I was 45, I looked 35, and from then on I looked older with each year.

I heard somewhere, I forget where, that after the age of 50 our age rate increases almost double that of before 50. Is that true?

Obviously yes. As our epigenetic age increases, cellular function decreases.

Edited by MikeDC, 10 August 2023 - 08:59 PM.

[hplus]

Obviously yes. As our epigenetic age increases, cellular function decreases.

Obviously, not. Provide evidence if you make wild claims.

 

According to Steve Horvath, the foremost authority on measuring epigenetic age, there is significant scientific evidence indicating that age-related changes in the epigenome slow down as individuals age chronologically. These are citations from the paper:

 

 

Blood DNAm age versus chronological age showed that DNAm age in young animals increased faster than chronological age then slowed down progressively, entering a plateau after 27 months. 

 

An interesting observation is that in young animals epigenetic time moves faster than physical time whereas in very old rats the ticking rate of the clock either markedly slows down or stops altogether.

 

Incidentally, the observation that the epigenetic clock seems to stop ticking at advanced ages has a bearing on the hypothesis that the clock may be quasi-programming the aging process in mammals (19). In effect, in the context of this hypothesis, when the epigenetic clock of a senile mammal stops ticking, the developmental program runs out, and the ensuing deterioration of the homeostatic networks would be consequential to an epigenetic drift of the senile organism.

[QuestforLife]

'when the epigenetic clock of a senile mammal stops ticking, the developmental program runs out, and the ensuing deterioration of the homeostatic networks would be consequential to an epigenetic drift of the senile organism.'

This assumes all deterioration is a consequence of epigenetic changes. This may not be true. For example, even if aging up to that point is epigenetic in nature, it might be that once you are deteriorated to a certain degree, no further aging would be required to ensure your demise in short order, due to your already elevated mortality rate. This is akin to many animals in the wild that have high mortality even without any aging.

We should also try and avoid using epigenetic aging as a black box. We age because of deteriorating organ function. This may be due to deteriorating cellular function, which in turn may be due to altered gene expression, which may in turn be in part due to changes in methylation of CpG Islands in regulatory regions of the genome. Only this last part is measured by 'epigenetic aging' tests, and these aren't even cell specific.

[MikeDC]

Obviously, not. Provide evidence if you make wild claims.

According to Steve Horvath, the foremost authority on measuring epigenetic age, there is significant scientific evidence indicating that age-related changes in the epigenome slow down as individuals age chronologically. These are citations from the paper:

Epigenetic changes may slow down when really old. But the deterioration of the body is determined by the absolute epigenetic changes. In addition, the accumulated damage in the tissue is another factor causing deterioration in the tissue