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#31 luv2increase

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 08:42 PM

They aren't safe of you consider the legal aspects, getting arrested and convicted is a big "danger"

Dose makes the poison, depends on the exact substance, depends on the person, depends on your liver and blood pressure, depends on...

They aren't exactly methampetamine or crack cocaine, most (I'd say ALL ) pro bodybuilders take them regulary and they aren't dropping like flyes, Millions of doses have been administered, and very few (if any) fatalities have occured.

www.mesomorphosis.com is a good study guide


Having previously been a user of steroids and pro-hormones along with much research and time spent on bodybuilding forums etc, I can attest that use of these substances is very dangerous. It is true that many of the dangers can be countered with proper liver support and post cycle supplementation along with a good stack and not taking a crazy long cycle. Also, it is best to stray from methylated steroid compounds.

robosapiens, it isn't just about legal concerns. People don't 'not' get help because they are illegal. That was a very erroneous statement. If that were true there wouldn't be rehab facilities for anything unrelated to alcohol abuse. Give me a break.

Also, one's natural, normal ratio of hormones within their body is nothing to be tinkering with! The only reason they are prescribed is when one's hormones are out of balance. They are also never used in the medical establishment in the extreme dosages in which are used recreationally.

When your hormones are above optimal range, there are more things that get bigger than just besides your muscles. For instance, one that first comes to mind and most importantly is YOUR HEART!

Furthermore, anyone with the slightest knowledge of biology and the endocrine system should know that anabolic/androgenic steroid use along with pro-steroids and pro-hormones is not smart to do. If one must partake in this, they should surely do it with the assistance of a doctor. A doctor with routinely give you liver enzyme tests along with a host of other tests before, during, and after your cycle to make sure everything is ok. The doctor cannot notify the authorities in this situation. They know that you aren't going to change your mind, so they will help in all they can. They will probably lecture you about the inherit dangers but will be happy that you are at least going about it in a cautious, mature manner.

The final note is that steroid use is bad. End of story.

#32 mike250

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 12:36 AM

how ''long'' would you define a cycle to be?

#33 kenj

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 01:38 PM

Women on average do live longer than men... ;-)

I was taking protein sups on top of my diet several y/ago to assist my weight training, but I have been leaning uch more towards a low protein diet over the last 12 months, subsequently taking in an overall lower calorie intake (not really tracked calorie RESTRICTION, though). I do a little weight training now, for enhancing the insulin sensitivity (and yeah, for many other benefits).
I aim for some protein in the morning after morning cardio exercises, and then I'm set for some fruits, berries and nuts, fiber sups, and teas during the day -- and a smaller serving of protein early in the evening (fish, chicken, eggwhite protein isolates usually).

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#34 icyT

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:32 AM

IMO the exercises which use the body's own weight for working out are the most optimal. And bodybuilding is just plain dumb as also pointed out by dukenukem. It's well known that hardcore bodybuilders have many health problems later in life. Overall I have nothing against weightlifting, I was negatively implying to bodybuilding which is its exaggerated form. By evolution the human body wasn't meant to be optimal by being a mountain of meat.

If you mean limiting yourself to using your own bodyweight alone, I disagree. Humans manipulate objects, and work against forces other than gravity. There are ways of stressing certain muscles not best attained by our body and gravity. If you mean focusing a program that uses the body as resistance if possible, including lessening it or going beyond it, then I would agree. Machines can work for people too weak to be able to manipulate their bodies, like a lat pulldown to achieve a chin-up. It also works well enough in place of it. Using the body makes sense though, especially if your head is moving, moving through space I think is stimulating rather than staying fixed and moving things. Maybe both are good. Tethering weight to the body also works and can simulate resisting opposing forces, or simply be a faster way of accomplishing things. Time is precious after all.

The articles posted above are, in particular, aimed at individuals who feel small and go to extreme lengths to make themselves feel bigger...such as taking steroids and other artificial ways of making oneself feel more manly...such as HGH supplementation etc. There is a BIG difference between being in excellent physical shape through exercise and feeling small about yourself and taking drugs instead of doing the work to be in good shape.

Even steroid-users exercise, steroids alone aren't sufficient for mass normally, and even if they are, they do not teach one to use that mass, to recruit the muscle grown, to apply it to strength. It often might affect the bones/soft tissue less than the muscle and lead to tissue imbalances. That being said, steroids and 'artificial ways' are not extreme. People have different capacity for exercise and recovery, and drugs can often balance what is not gifted through genes or the nurture during one's youth. Drugs, 'cheating', whatever, they are not wrong. They are strategies. What makes them reckless is if they cause health problems. Things that cause problems should be avoided, even if they limit the speed, and the maximum height of your progress. Lifespan is more important. If something causes problems, even if it is decades down the line, then it should be avoided until a solution can be found explaining the problem. Whenever I read about these problems, it is related to people taking excessive amounts of steroids and not basing it on any sort of research. This says nothing about the potential uses of them in a healthy relationship. We all know that steroids are sometimes perscribed in medicine.

Link to sourceWeightlifting May Increase Glaucoma Risk

This article you quoted, I don't see the point in it. I'll accept that it increases intraocular pressure, but that pressure in the eye causes glaucoma, what proves that? If I hang upside down my eye pressure would increase too. Who's to say the eye can't adapt to increased pressure the same way the rest of the body does? Perhaps it is health-building. I'm suspicious that intraocular pressure may only be correlated with glaucoma. I guess I'll read about it. It's a concern to someone like me who wears glasses, if there are to be eye injuries, since my eyeball is misshapen, I would likely be more prone to developing them, and I plan to do both weightlifting and inversion.

Besides prolonged heavy training keeps up the cortisol levels in the body which eventually has detrimental results on the mind. Maybe that's why athelethes tend to get the "stupid" label more often.
prolonged heavy training is unnecessary, and in fact detremental to hypertrophy, One should only spend about 30 to 45 min in the gym.

I think she may have been referring to doing it regularly. Aren't cortisol levels elevated for a period after the lifting as well as during recovery?

Side effects of steroid misuse in men *may* include reduced sperm count, kidney and liver problems, high blood pressure and increased aggression.

To me, a reduced sperm count would be a beneficial side effect :p I see that as more of a potential symptom of disease rather than one in and of itself. It only matters to those attempting to conceive.

I'm glad I've never had those pressures placed on me, I'm a lanky person by nature and I have no problem with it, if people have a problem with it, well, that's their problem, not mine. I feel bad for people who live their lives in the eyes of other people, it must be a really depressing lifestyle. I live for one person, and one person only, that's myself. I really could care less what anyone's opinion of me might be, unless that opinion is important in me getting somewhere I need to be, then every other 'opinion' is 100% irrelevant to my existence. I wasn't always like that, and it's not easy to adapt to, but it makes life more enjoyable since you don't live for anyone but yourself (which makes me want to start  a rant about people who think true happiness is solely found in dating/relationships, but I'll save that discussion for another time).

You do realize that there are other reasons that people build their bodies besides impressing people, right? This is probably the main draw that leads to people exploring it, but over time, when you're bathed in that sort of attitude, it becomes boring and depressing and you look to other philosophies people have developed for doing it. It makes quite a bit of sense. Impressing others would then only be a side benefit, and then, likely an asset in certain personal dealings. Impressing others does not only serve the purpose of self-satisfaction, but also beneficial interactions that can land you business deals.

But, well, some kind of resistance training with weights, especially for upper body muscle maintenance is incredibly important. But how big muscles get is very much up to genetic predisposition. It's important that muscle mass and strength is maintained, but good strength can exist without gaining a lot of visible muscle mass. Building and maintaining 'invisible' parts of skeletal muscle is most important, for example.

I've never seen any studies done linking maximal size to genetic predisposition. Initial size, or how much stress it takes to increase it, sure, but not the maximum. Strength gained without much visible mass is due to motor learning and more efficient recruiting of fibres at the proper times. There's a limit to what it can do, and hypertrophy can accelerate how you recover and how good your endurance with this enhanced strength is.

jumping and trampolining is THE most efficient way to increase lymph circulation. Regular joggers of course get a good amount of these benefits, but buying a small trampoline if you have the space anywhere, is one of the best things to do for your metabolism, aerobic exercise-wise, plus it can release and prevent muscle tensions.

Jumping and trampolining are great, but I'm not sure if any comparisons have been done comparing the effects of it to certain kinds of weight lifting. Getting a small rebounder for indoors and a giant enclosed trampoline for my future mansion are definately in my plans though :) They're also a much safer way to learn things like backflips, and loads of fun, good for progressive jumping practise.

Well for one CR and getting bigger contradict each other.  This is something I'm struggling with personally.  As a naturally thin guy, I can gain fairly significant muscle, but only if I eat a lot of calories.  I'm not doing CR and the biggest reason is vanity :(  There I admitted it.

Eh, not technically... you need more calories to get bigger, sure, but it's all the passive increases in metabolism from extra muscle mass, plus energy expended in creating and maintaining muscle mass, which is the problem. Muscular guys probably age faster from metabolism faster than fat people do. It's only the beneficial side-effects from exercise and the degenerative effects of extra blubber that make this less apparent. I'm struggling with this too, because I really admire muscle, and bodybuilding-style training is probably the best way for me to become leaner. I really like food :) Only... blah, CR.

Same exact situation here.  I'm a little jealous that women can engage in moderate CR and still maintain some degree of attractiveness.  There is nothing sexually appealing about a man that looks like he's starving (that is not to say he won't have successful sexual relations, but I am certain they will not be based on visual lust for his physique).

Allow time for changing cultures. Actually, thin physiques have become quite appealing in certain circles, part of the whole 'effeminate man' metrosexual sort of thing. My look and proportions don't really pull this off though, so blah. Anyway, being sexually appealing shouldn't be such a big concern, nor should be securing sexual relations. These are all temporary and useless pursuits. Form naturally follows function, so if we pursue effect and anti-aging, the appealing looks associated with them would follow if done right. Ideally, do we want relations solely based on lust for physique? I wonder how satisfying a character such a person would be.

Also, one's natural, normal ratio of hormones within their body is nothing to be tinkering with!  The only reason they are prescribed is when one's hormones are out of balance.  They are also never used in the medical establishment in the extreme dosages in which are used recreationally. 

When your hormones are above optimal range, there are more things that get bigger than just besides your muscles.  For instance, one that first comes to mind and most importantly is YOUR HEART!

Furthermore, anyone with the slightest knowledge of biology and the endocrine system should know that anabolic/androgenic steroid use along with pro-steroids and pro-hormones is not smart to do.  If one must partake in this, they should surely do it with the assistance of a doctor.  A doctor with routinely give you liver enzyme tests along with a host of other tests before, during, and after your cycle to make sure everything is ok.  The doctor cannot notify the authorities in this situation.  They know that you aren't going to change your mind, so they will help in all they can.  They will probably lecture you about the inherit dangers but will be happy that you are at least going about it in a cautious, mature manner.

The final note is that steroid use is bad.  End of story.

There is nothing inherantly benign about 'natural'. A normal ratio of hormones never stopped aging. Aging is associated with a reduction in them, too. That means it bears looking at. What 'balance' is, is often debated, I think 'optimal levels' accounting for interactions is a better way to look at it. No one is advocating the extreme recreational doses, but moderate ones on level with medicine.

Lance Armstrong's heart is pretty big... what's wrong with a large heart exactly? It certainly doesn't cause testicular cancer. It allows more activity, and a slower resting pulse. Just so long as it isn't bursting I don't see the problem. Steroid use is not inherantly bad, overdosing IS. It's not the end of the story. With biochemistry, there's never an end to any story. There's always more to learn.

Women on average do live longer than men... ;-) I do a little weight training now, for enhancing the insulin sensitivity (and yeah, for many other benefits).

Men's having a higher metabolism on average due to our having more muscle may be related to this lower life expectation, but it has not been isolated as the only factor. It also has to do with aggressiveness, general lifestyle choices, etc. Weight-training isn't really needed to increase insulin sensitivity, just minimizing carbohydrates in the diet would do. Carbohydrates are delicious though, so I can see your point.

#35 mike250

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:57 AM

with regards to cortisol, we all know that it can be be blunted with proper peri, pre and post-workout supplementation. not to mention a solid diet and not going to failure all the time.

#36 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 07:22 PM

Anyway, being sexually appealing shouldn't be such a big concern, nor should be securing sexual relations. These are all temporary and useless pursuits.

This depends on your personal set of values. Most people would argue that having sex is one of the most positive and enjoyable aspects of the human condition, one that even many transhumanists would like to preserve. I personally am very uncomfortable with the idea of a woman having sex with me in the absence of genuine physical attraction (not that there shouldn't be other reasons, but that is a requisite). Therefore, maintaining a sexually appealing appearance does rate highly for me.

Actually, thin physiques have become quite appealing in certain circles, part of the whole 'effeminate man' metrosexual sort of thing.

I don't agree that the effeminate metrosexual look is widely admired by women at the level of the naked body -- clothing, hair, etc may be a different story. My fiancee would define a sexually appealing male body as having a low percentage of body fat and at least a moderate amount of muscle (more than could be maintained on CR), and from what I've seen, the majority of women share this view.

#37 Shepard

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 09:02 PM

I don't agree that the effeminate metrosexual look is widely admired by women at the level of the naked body -- clothing, hair, etc may be a different story.  My fiancee would define a sexually appealing male body as having a low percentage of body fat and at least a moderate amount of muscle (more than could be maintained on CR), and from what I've seen, the majority of women share this view.


Yeah, you've got stuff like this http://www.reuters.c...C04599320070710, which makes sense.

But, when I look around at my friends that are the most attractive to women, none have impressive physiques. They are all thin, though.This is probably due to whatever drives a lot of guys to improve their physiques has a substantial negative affect on their attractiveness.

#38 robosapiens

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 11:44 PM

Having previously been a user of steroids and pro-hormones along with much research and time spent on bodybuilding forums etc, I can attest that use of these substances is very dangerous


I didn't mean to say this, I meant to say the above statement was an appeal to authority

I wonder what happened to my original post?

I do not agree with the above quote, who has the ability to edit my posts besides myself?

This is very strange, what the heck?

Edited by robosapiens, 16 August 2007 - 04:52 PM.


#39 t234

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 10:51 PM

How so? The consensus of every single bodybuilding forum I've been on is that they are perfectly safe when used properly.

#40 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:07 PM

How so?  The consensus of every single bodybuilding forum I've been on is that they are perfectly safe when used properly.


The consensus of every scientology forum is that there are aliens living in our brains.... what is your point? That is an appeal to authority, and a blatantly biased authority at that.

#41 mike250

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 09:12 PM

Having previously been a user of steroids and pro-hormones along with much research and time spent on bodybuilding forums etc, I can attest that use of these substances is very dangerous


I agree that long-term use of these substances is not a good idea.

#42 rombus

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 01:54 AM

Link to source

Weightlifting May Increase Glaucoma Risk

12 Sep 2006

If you are a regular weightlifter perhaps you should bear in mind that you could be increasing your chances of developing glaucoma, a condition that can make you blind, say Brazilian researchers.

The scientists found that weightlifting is associated with a temporary increase in intraocular pressure (pressure inside the eye). Introcular pressure is raised further if the person holds his/her breath during reps. This increase in pressure inside the eye raises the risk of developing glaucoma.
Reps = repetitions of an exercise. The total repetitions done in one go is called a Set. A person may do '3 sets of 7 reps of a bench press exercise')

You can read about this study in the journal Archives of Ophthalmology.

When air is forced against a closed windpipe (Valsalva manoeuvre) pressure inside the eyeball tends to go up. Valsalva manoeuvre commonly occurs when a person coughs, vomits, plays a brass wind instrument (trumpet) and does heavy weightlifting.

Aerobic exercise, such as jogging, cycling and swimming is usually followed by a fall in intraocular pressure. In fact, even non-aerobic exercise, such as weightlifting is also followed by a drop in intraocular pressure. The difference is that during the act of heavy weightlifting intraocular pressure can go up.

The scientists did research on 30 weight-training men. None of the men at the start of the study had any signs of glaucoma. All of them had normal intraocular pressure (<21 mm of mercury).

The 30 volunteers had to do a bench press exercise, four reps in two different ways:


1. holding their breath during the four reps
2. breathing normally during the four reps

While they were holding their breath, pressure in the right eye was measured. While they breathed normally, pressure in the left eye was measured. In both cases eye pressure was measured during the last rep.

When they held their breath

Eye pressure rose 4.3 mm of mercury (average) in 90% of the weightlifters.

When they breathed normally

Eye pressure rose 2.2 mm or mercury in 62% of weightlifters.

The researchers concluded that prolonged weightlifting might be a potential risk factor for the development as well as the progression of glaucoma.

Team leader, Dr Geraldo Magela Vieira, said "Intermittent intraocular pressure increases during weightlifting should be suspected in patients with normal-tension glaucoma who perform such exercises. Patients with normal-tension glaucoma should be questioned as to a history of regular weightlifting."

What is Glaucoma?

Glaucoma is an eye disease that gradually takes away a person's eyesight without warning. During the initial stages of Glaucoma there are often no symptoms at all. Health professionals say half of glaucoma sufferers probably don't know they have it.

The optic nerve, which carries visual messages from the eye to the brain, becomes damaged.

There is currently no cure for Glaucoma. Medication can slow down and even prevent further vision loss. Early detection is crucial to preserve a person's eyesight.

High pressure within the eye is a major cause of Glaucoma. It is not the only cause, as people with normal intraocular pressure have been known to experience vision loss from glaucoma.

"Intraocular Pressure Variation During Weight Lifting"
Geraldo Magela Vieira, MD; Hildeamo Bonifácio Oliveira, MSD; Daniel Tavares de Andrade, MSD; Martim Bottaro, PhD; Robert Ritch, MD
Arch Ophthalmol. 2006;124:1251-1254.
Click here to see Abstract online

Written by: Christian Nordqvist
Editor: Medical News Today
Article URL: http://www.medicalne...hp?newsid=51707


Save time! Get the latest medical news headlines for your specialist area, in a weekly newsletter e-mail. See http://www.medicalne...newsletters.php for details.

Send your press releases to pressrelease@medicalnewstoday.com


Seems to be conflicting studies on IOP pressure. Says here that IOP pressure was actually reduced during as well as for a time after leg presses and chest press.

Resistance training exercises acutely reduce intraocular pressure in physically active men and women.

Chromiak JA, Abadie BR, Braswell RA, Koh YS, Chilek DR.

Department of Health, Physical Education, Recreation, and Sport, Mississippi State University, Starkville, Mississippi 39762, USA. jchrom@colled.msstate.edu

Our purpose was to examine the effect of the chest press and leg press exercises on intraocular pressure (IOP) in physically active, college-aged students. Fifteen healthy males and 15 females performed 3 sets of 10 repetitions of the chest press or leg press with 70% 1 repetition maximum (1RM). IOP was measured using applanation tonometry with a Tono-PenXL prior to exercise, following each set and 5 minutes after the third set. Data were analyzed with a repeated-measures two-way analysis of variance and paired t-tests when necessary. A p < 0.05 was accepted as statistically significant. For the chest press, IOP was reduced 8.0% after the first set, up to 14.5% after the second and third sets, and remained depressed 5 minutes post exercise. For the leg press, IOP was reduced 6.9% after the second set and 13.2% after the third set. IOP began to return to the pre-exercise value during 5 minutes post exercise. Males and females had similar IOP responses to the chest press and leg press exercise. Dynamic resistance exercises induce modest postexercise decreases in IOP.

PMID: 14636115 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14636115

#43 doug123

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 02:20 AM

Link to source

Weightlifting May Increase Glaucoma Risk

12 Sep 2006

If you are a regular weightlifter perhaps you should bear in mind that you could be increasing your chances of developing glaucoma, a condition that can make you blind, say Brazilian researchers.

The scientists found that weightlifting is associated with a temporary increase in intraocular pressure (pressure inside the eye). Introcular pressure is raised further if the person holds his/her breath during reps. This increase in pressure inside the eye raises the risk of developing glaucoma.
Reps = repetitions of an exercise. The total repetitions done in one go is called a Set. A person may do '3 sets of 7 reps of a bench press exercise')

You can read about this study in the journal Archives of Ophthalmology.

When air is forced against a closed windpipe (Valsalva manoeuvre) pressure inside the eyeball tends to go up. Valsalva manoeuvre commonly occurs when a person coughs, vomits, plays a brass wind instrument (trumpet) and does heavy weightlifting.

Aerobic exercise, such as jogging, cycling and swimming is usually followed by a fall in intraocular pressure. In fact, even non-aerobic exercise, such as weightlifting is also followed by a drop in intraocular pressure. The difference is that during the act of heavy weightlifting intraocular pressure can go up.

The scientists did research on 30 weight-training men. None of the men at the start of the study had any signs of glaucoma. All of them had normal intraocular pressure (<21 mm of mercury).

The 30 volunteers had to do a bench press exercise, four reps in two different ways:


1. holding their breath during the four reps
2. breathing normally during the four reps

While they were holding their breath, pressure in the right eye was measured. While they breathed normally, pressure in the left eye was measured. In both cases eye pressure was measured during the last rep.

When they held their breath

Eye pressure rose 4.3 mm of mercury (average) in 90% of the weightlifters.

When they breathed normally

Eye pressure rose 2.2 mm or mercury in 62% of weightlifters.

The researchers concluded that prolonged weightlifting might be a potential risk factor for the development as well as the progression of glaucoma.

Team leader, Dr Geraldo Magela Vieira, said "Intermittent intraocular pressure increases during weightlifting should be suspected in patients with normal-tension glaucoma who perform such exercises. Patients with normal-tension glaucoma should be questioned as to a history of regular weightlifting."

What is Glaucoma?

Glaucoma is an eye disease that gradually takes away a person's eyesight without warning. During the initial stages of Glaucoma there are often no symptoms at all. Health professionals say half of glaucoma sufferers probably don't know they have it.

The optic nerve, which carries visual messages from the eye to the brain, becomes damaged.

There is currently no cure for Glaucoma. Medication can slow down and even prevent further vision loss. Early detection is crucial to preserve a person's eyesight.

High pressure within the eye is a major cause of Glaucoma. It is not the only cause, as people with normal intraocular pressure have been known to experience vision loss from glaucoma.

"Intraocular Pressure Variation During Weight Lifting"
Geraldo Magela Vieira, MD; Hildeamo Bonifácio Oliveira, MSD; Daniel Tavares de Andrade, MSD; Martim Bottaro, PhD; Robert Ritch, MD
Arch Ophthalmol. 2006;124:1251-1254.
Click here to see Abstract online

Written by: Christian Nordqvist
Editor: Medical News Today
Article URL: http://www.medicalne...hp?newsid=51707


Save time! Get the latest medical news headlines for your specialist area, in a weekly newsletter e-mail. See http://www.medicalne...newsletters.php for details.

Send your press releases to pressrelease@medicalnewstoday.com


Seems to be conflicting studies on IOP pressure. Says here that IOP pressure was actually reduced during as well as for a time after leg presses and chest press.

Resistance training exercises acutely reduce intraocular pressure in physically active men and women.

Chromiak JA, Abadie BR, Braswell RA, Koh YS, Chilek DR.

Department of Health, Physical Education, Recreation, and Sport, Mississippi State University, Starkville, Mississippi 39762, USA. jchrom@colled.msstate.edu

Our purpose was to examine the effect of the chest press and leg press exercises on intraocular pressure (IOP) in physically active, college-aged students. Fifteen healthy males and 15 females performed 3 sets of 10 repetitions of the chest press or leg press with 70% 1 repetition maximum (1RM). IOP was measured using applanation tonometry with a Tono-PenXL prior to exercise, following each set and 5 minutes after the third set. Data were analyzed with a repeated-measures two-way analysis of variance and paired t-tests when necessary. A p < 0.05 was accepted as statistically significant. For the chest press, IOP was reduced 8.0% after the first set, up to 14.5% after the second and third sets, and remained depressed 5 minutes post exercise. For the leg press, IOP was reduced 6.9% after the second set and 13.2% after the third set. IOP began to return to the pre-exercise value during 5 minutes post exercise. Males and females had similar IOP responses to the chest press and leg press exercise. Dynamic resistance exercises induce modest postexercise decreases in IOP.

PMID: 14636115 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14636115


Thank you for commenting; without having evaluated all the replies in this topic -- I took a quick look at the abstract you pasted above -- and I noted it wasn't published with peer review.

Here is a link to the study you cited: Resistance Training Exercises Acutely Reduce Intraocular Pressure in Physically Active Men and Women

Are you suggesting we compare data published in 2006 by Archives of Ophthalmology, a peer-reviewed publication of the American Medical Association with the abstract posted above (data from 2003)? I'm not saying we should dispose of all non-peer reviewed journals -- nor am I suggesting we only allow AMA to set forward health policy -- but one thing I can say is the study you referenced above isn't published with full peer review.

Here is the abstract that Medical News Today was reporting on:

Posted Image

Vol. 124 No. 9, September 2006   

Intraocular Pressure Variation During Weight Lifting
Geraldo Magela Vieira, MD; Hildeamo Bonifácio Oliveira, MSD; Daniel Tavares de Andrade, MSD; Martim Bottaro, PhD; Robert Ritch, MD


Arch Ophthalmol. 2006;124:1251-1254.

ABSTRACT 

Objective  To evaluate the effect of weight lifting on intraocular pressure (IOP).

Methods  Subjects performed 4 repetitions of a bench press exercise in 2 ways: in mode I (right eyes), the breath was held during the last repetition; in mode II (left eyes), subjects exhaled normally during the last repetition. The IOP was measured with an electronic tonometer during the fourth repetition in both modes while the subject sustained the exercise.

Results  Mean IOP during exercise in mode I increased by 4.3 ± 4.2 mm Hg (P<.001, paired t test; range, –3.6 to 17.7 mm Hg). In mode II, mean IOP increased by 2.2 ± 3.0 mm Hg (P<.001, paired t test; range, –6.0 to 8.7 mm Hg). The IOP increased in 90% of subjects in mode I and in 62% in mode II. An increase in IOP greater than 5.0 mm Hg was observed in 9 subjects (30%) in mode I and in 6 (21%) in mode II. In 2 subjects, IOP during exercise mode I was markedly increased (>10.0 mm Hg).

Conclusions
  The IOP increases significantly during a bench press exercise. Breath holding during the exercise leads to a greater IOP increase.



Thoughts or comments? I will try to take a closer look at the issues raised in this topic when I get back from the gym.

Take care.

#44 robosapiens

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:36 PM

These are all temporary and useless pursuits. Form naturally follows function, so if we pursue effect and anti-aging, the appealing looks associated with them would follow if done right.


Every pursuit is temporary, given enough time.

Ideally, do we want relations solely based on lust for physique? I wonder how satisfying a character such a person would be.


Quite satisfying actually, depending on ones values.

further, relations aren't necessarily "solely based on lust", however it's an essential component, at least to me.

relations with the opposite sex, without lust, become "just freinds"

*yawn*

#45 tarbtl

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:31 AM

Besides prolonged heavy training keeps up the cortisol levels in the body which eventually has detrimental results on the mind. Maybe that's why athelethes tend to get the "stupid" label more often.


This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.

#46 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:57 PM

Besides prolonged heavy training keeps up the cortisol levels in the body which eventually has detrimental results on the mind. Maybe that's why athelethes tend to get the "stupid" label more often.


This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.


Yea, I think that is a post-hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Non-intellectual activities such as sports are simply more welcoming to those who have less intelligence than, say, molecular biology.

Stupid people are not more athletic and athletic people are not generally stupid.

#47 doug123

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 09:47 PM

CORRECTION: The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research seems to be a peer-reviewed journal. Regardless, Archives of Ophthalmology is a more recent publication and I wholly believe in the integrity of that journal.

Instructions to Authors—The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research
Updated: 2/05

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (JSCR) is the official research journal of the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA). Membership in the NSCA is not a requirement for publication in the journal. It publishes original investigations, reviews, symposia, research notes, and technical and methodological reports contributing to the knowledge about strength and conditioning in sport and exercise. All manuscripts must be original works and present applications to the strength and conditioning professional or provide the basis for further applied research in the area. Manuscripts are subjected to a “double blind” peer review by at least two reviewers who are experts in the field. Editorial decisions will be based on the quality, clarity, style, and importance of the submission relative to the goals and objectives of the NSCA and the journal. Tips for writing a manuscript for the JSCR can be found at http://www.nsca-lift.../JSCRtips.shtml. Please read this document carefully prior to preparation of a manuscript.


My bad. If you take a look at the PubMed citation, which is what I used to determine whether or not a publication is peer-reviewed, it isn't listed as a review. That could be because I (or PubMed) mixed up the definition of peer review with meta analysis.

Anyways, for now, I'm just here to correct for the error; I am still planning on commenting on this topic; I would do so now, but I am overwhelmed with work right now plus it seems my life's soap opera has just evolved to a new level; luckily I've got my I ching with me. [wis]

Take care.

Attached Files



#48 rmoore

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:02 PM

Quote (shepard)
"But, when I look around at my friends that are the most attractive to women, none have impressive physiques. They are all thin, though.This is probably due to whatever drives a lot of guys to improve their physiques has a substantial negative affect on their attractiveness."

I totally agree with you, shepard. I think women find too much muscle cheesy looking. Decent muscle tone and average body size is what women seem to like.

Here is a decent article on the subject:

http://fitnessblackb...cheesy-looking/

#49 ikaros

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:43 PM

QUOTE (ikaros)
Besides prolonged heavy training keeps up the cortisol levels in the body which eventually has detrimental results on the mind. Maybe that's why athelethes tend to get the "stupid" label more often.


This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.


Congrats then.

Yea, I think that is a post-hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Non-intellectual activities such as sports are simply more welcoming to those who have less intelligence than, say, molecular biology.

Stupid people are not more athletic and athletic people are not generally stupid


I never implied that it's more healthy to not move. Moderate exercise is optimal. If one wishes to work out 15 times a week 2h workout, be my guest, I prefer 3-4 times.
Although I admit I generalized, your last statement is also ironically generalizing.

#50 sentinel

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 11:57 AM

I think its all like the Big Tits/Small Tits scenario aka the grass is always greener.

IF a woman is with a skinny albeit toned guy then I think often their eye will drift to what they don't "have" and vice-versa.

The compromise "quite muscular, low body fat" look hedge's your bets and shields you from the above phenomenon.

If you are average size and a bit pudgey, really skinny or fat then you're just going to have to fall back on your personality or wallet (not necessarily in that order [sfty] )

Sentinel

#51 lars

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 08:30 AM

I want to be as healthy as Jack Lelanne when i'm 92 so i work out 3-4 times a week ;)

#52 suspire

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 06:55 PM

Well, here are some positives of resistence training, especially with regards to diabetes:

http://www.washingto...7091701330.html

#53 nihilist

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 07:00 AM

what problems are endemic to bodybuilders and not others? with how common certain issues the body get as we age, whos to say theres any effect? this is, of course, saying the person didnt acquire injuries from the bodybuilding or sport they bodybuild for.

seems to me injuries would be the main concern, and those certainly happen every day, bodybuilder or not.

i will say this: guys who stick at it for awhile tend to take stupid chances, if theyre of a certain mindset. this is on top of being too committed, and not getting regular time off. at 25, i take a week or two off about every 8, and i only deadlift every other week. i suspect that as i get older, if i maintain this, ill take more time off.

if bodybuilding is bad long term, id hate to see someone who runs or bikes regularly. my joints gave me far more problems after 9 months of interval biking than 2 years of bodybuilding. perhaps thats just due to my size and abilities [im 6'4", 272].

of potential note, unless its already been mentioned, is spartan health. its what the guys on The 300 did to get into shape, before they started sword and shield work. if youre worried, for whatever reason, about bodybuilding, its a good substitute. im going to add some of it to my BBing, and add a day or 2 of spartan training as long as it doesnt overtrain me to easily.

#54 nihilist

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 07:03 AM

as an aside, getting big is not easy, not even with steroids. if theres a body mass concern here, i would relax.

#55 kenj

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 01:52 PM

>>> Besides prolonged heavy training keeps up the cortisol levels in the body which eventually has detrimental results on the mind. Maybe that's why athelethes tend to get the "stupid" label more often. <<<

FWIW, I used to - for several years - perform cardio 1st thing in the morning, on empty stomach. I'd assume it would elevate hGH levels from the night's sleep.
However, it will also elevate cortisol (which is already high in the morning), and I'm thinking now it's more beneficial, to get a little snack (a few hundred cals and a cup of green tea) in the stomach, to minimize the stress response that will occur, following the exercise.

#56 doug123

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 06:03 PM

http://www.upi.com/C...10-043847-9157r

Male drive for beefy bodies unhealthy

By CHRISTINE DELL'AMORE
UPI Consumer Health Correspondent
WASHINGTON, Aug. 10 (UPI) -- The bulging Olympic weight lifter's body is out of reach for most college-aged men, but that doesn't stop them from trying -- sometimes to their detriment, a new study says.

The pressure from society, friends and family to have muscular bodies may make men see themselves as objects, and that any body type besides big and burly is unworthy, said study author Tracy Tylka, an assistant professor of psychology at Ohio State University in Marion.

"Men can be affected by pressures to be muscular, and that can increase their own dissatisfaction with their muscularity and body fat," said Tylka, who presented her research Aug. 10 at the American Psychological Association annual meeting.

Since most body image research and attention has focused on women trying to be thin, people tend to downplay male pressures to be muscular.

"Anyone who cares about these men (should) not minimize it," she said.


Tylka and colleagues gave questionnaires to 285 predominantly white men with an average age of 19 at Ohio State University. The men were asked questions targeted at how much pressure they felt from family, friends, romantic partners and the media to become more muscular.

The researchers then used a technique called structural equation modeling to see if objectification theory could predict men's muscularity behavior, which included weight lifting, using supplements to increase muscle mass and restricting their diet. Objectification theory means a person is focused on their external appearance as an object, instead of their internal qualities such as personality. The theory has been thoroughly studied in women, but never in men.

The model provided an adequate to excellent fit to the data, which suggested that pressures to be muscular are associated with men dissatisfied with their muscle tone and body fat. However, it is still not possible to say media and societal pressure caused the behaviors.

The body-fat finding advanced the literature on male body image, Tylka said, because the research on muscularity often overshadows the fact men are also insecure about their body composition.

Men concerned about their body fat were more likely to report symptoms of eating disorders, such as restricting diet and a fear of obesity.

Those worried about lacking muscle were more likely to become obsessed with weightlifting or taking steroids -- which, if taken in excess, could be lethal.

A fascination with weightlifting and getting bigger may in some cases be signs of a mental illness called muscle dysmorphia. The opposite of anorexia, muscle dysmorphia, or "bigorexia," is a variant of obsessive-compulsive disorder; people who are affected become fixated with remedying their perceived smallness.

Previous research has shown college-aged men exposed to advertisements depicting highly muscular men experienced greater dissatisfaction with their bodies than men exposed to neutral ads. Tylka also found this connection: The more pressure the Ohio State University men felt, the greater their dissatisfaction.


Society has pumped up the male image in recent decades into a Herculean, sinewy ideal. "Playgirl" centerfolds have become increasingly muscular since the 1980s; likewise, the waist, chest and biceps of male action figure toys have grown bulkier over time. Like Barbie, many of the current toys exceed the muscularity of even the biggest bodybuilders, Tylka pointed out.


Tylka expects her study to be published in 2007. The results should be viewed with caution, since the findings have not undergone final peer review and may change. Tylka also warns not to generalize the findings to other populations beyond white college-aged students -- more studies are needed to confirm the results.

But any study that examines men's construction of self image is a step forward, said Dr. Doug Bunnell, clinical director of the Renfrew Center of Connecticut.

"It's been an understudied phenomenon, and we've all been (too) content with the explanation that men don't struggle with these sorts of issues," said Bunnell, who is also a past president of the National Eating Disorders Association.

Applying the objectification theory to men is a novel idea, Bunnell said, and he's not surprised that men also internalize messages from the media.

"These messages become part of the foundation for self-image, and men are not immune to it," he said.



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Does anyone know whether or not if Tylka's research was published with full peer review? It says in the article posted above, from UPI that: "Tylka expects her study to be published in 2007." Were follow-up studies performed to confirm the findings? Can anyone find the publication?

It seems many individuals are interested in performance enhancement -- especially in sports. In today's news: Jones pleads guilty to lying in steroids case.

An excerpt:

Posted Image

Jones pleads guilty to lying in steroids case

Updated Fri. Oct. 5 2007 11:10 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

After telling a New York state judge that she would plead guilty to two counts of felonies, three-time Olympic gold medalist Marion Jones said she plans to retire from track and field.
...

Medals

At the Sydney Olympics, Jones won three gold medals and two bronze medals.

Under statute of limitations rules, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and other sports bodies have the power to go back eight years to strip medals and void results.

The IOC, which first launched an investigation against Jones in 2004, said Friday it was ready to move quickly to strip Jones of her Olympic medals following her reported confession.

"We welcome that there is now some light to be shed on the whole affair," IOC vice-president Thomas Bach told AP. "Now, with this admission, we can accelerate and speed up the procedures."

Jones could also face a long competition ban from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA).

If the track star admits to using illegal drugs during specific time periods, the International Association of Athletics Federations could also strip Jones of awards received at world championships and other events.

Jones won three gold medals, a silver and a bronze at the 1999 and 2001 worlds.

"Our rules are clear if she confesses," IAAF spokesman Nick Davies told AP.
...


So besides getting stripped of Olympic medals, there also may be side effects from using performance enhancing drugs. Which ones work and what is the risk/return?

To provide further perspective on this matter, I am going to share a presentation by a clinical professor in medicine that is also board certified in Family Medicine and Sports Medicine; Suraj Achar, MD. When I requested permission to show his presentation in public that he gave at the Jan, 2007 supplements conference in La Jolla, CA, he requested that I remove some images from his 60 page presentation, so I removed all of the colorful images. The message still gets across. There is also information on creatine and bitter orange among others.

The presentation is called: "Supplements Performance: Enhancing or Weight Loss?" The presentation actually starts on the second slide; please enter the following into your browser:

http://www.slide.com...a0JLRSQxo510aKA

Have a great weekend.

Take care.

#57 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 05:59 AM

I have a very modest amount of muscle mass. I can do 20 chin-ups. 40 push ups, and curl 50 pound weights, but my muscles are very lean.

I don't want to put too much stress on my body, but I also want to look good and have the other positive effects of strength training (lower triglycerides, etc)

So what would be the ideal muscle mass to have? Is there a way to measure muscle mass percentage?

#58 krillin

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 05:48 PM

I have a very modest amount of muscle mass. I can do 20 chin-ups. 40 push ups, and curl 50 pound weights, but my muscles are very lean.


Have you ever tried doing more push-ups? I've been doing 60 since I'd been under the impression that that maxes out the Army standards, but it appears that I've been slacking. Time to ramp up to 77!

http://www.army.com/...t/push-ups.html

The Chair Force standards are a joke.

#59 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 08:49 PM

I used to be able to do 50-55.... I think I did 60 once and was hurting afterwards. I am sure I could work up to that again if I tried, but I have been trying to do everything Tabata-style to see if it works.

I think it might somewhat work for running. I just ran 2 miles and it was seriously easy. I used to run 2 or 3 miles regularly, but for the last few months I have only been doing tabata-style sprinting. You would think I'd have lost all long distance ability.

I suppose being able to do 60 would be good... just in case I get drafted into a war with Iran or something... but I would probably want to work on my dodging more, if you know what I mean.

#60 doug123

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:28 PM

Dear progressive,

I am really not sure what the "ideal" muscle mass to have is -- for you; and BMI (Body Mass Index) doesn't appear to be a reliable indicator of health if you have substantial muscle mass. This is a case that might be best determined by a partnership with a licensed physician that specializes in sports medicine.

By the way, for those interested, I do have (on my computer) the approximately one-hour fifteen minute (01:14:52) audio file that goes along with Dr. Achar's 60 page presentation that I linked to above from the supplements conference in La Jolla earlier this year. If anyone wants a copy, please contact me and I'll contact the doctor and see if he doesn't mind me sending it around.

Take care.




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