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Male drive for beefy bodies unhealthy


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#61 Chiggy

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 07:43 PM

I totally agree.

Most problems with steroids occur with lack of knowledge, not knowing correct dosage and kind of steroid used. Following incorrect and non sterile injection procedures, not even knowing what the hell they are doing. When taking any drug you should know as much as you can about it, that includes all drugs that have any possibility of side effects or future damage to your body, not just steroids.




so are steriods actually fairly safe?


They aren't safe of you consider the legal aspects, getting arrested and convicted is a big "danger"

Dose makes the poison, depends on the exact substance, depends on the person, depends on your liver and blood pressure, depends on...

They aren't exactly methampetamine or crack cocaine, most (I'd say ALL ) pro bodybuilders take them regulary and they aren't dropping like flyes, Millions of doses have been administered, and very few (if any) fatalities have occured.

www.mesomorphosis.com is a good study guide



#62 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 11:55 PM

But it isn't really healthy to be a beefy bodybuilder of 250 pounds regardless of steroids or not.........

#63 Shepard

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:11 AM

But it isn't really healthy to be a beefy bodybuilder of 250 pounds regardless of steroids or not.........



Relative to.....

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#64 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:37 AM

But it isn't really healthy to be a beefy bodybuilder of 250 pounds regardless of steroids or not.........



Relative to.....


CR people, Raw food people,some average people, etc..........

#65 Shepard

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 01:14 AM

CR people, Raw food people,some average people, etc..........


Because...

There are plenty of people that are 250 that are quite lean and I imagine what you would consider "healthy". They are called the genetically blessed (from an aesthetic perspective).

I wish I were Samoan.

Edited by shepard, 25 June 2008 - 01:16 AM.


#66 mike250

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 01:43 PM

But it isn't really healthy to be a beefy bodybuilder of 250 pounds regardless of steroids or not.........


unhealthy relative to you and others with piss-poor to average genetics. Not everybody can be 6'1 230lbs before touching a single weight :p
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#67 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 08:40 PM

CR people, Raw food people,some average people, etc..........


Because...

There are plenty of people that are 250 that are quite lean and I imagine what you would consider "healthy". They are called the genetically blessed (from an aesthetic perspective).

I wish I were Samoan.


What about samoan men? Are they particularly healthy compared to other populations?

#68 Shepard

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 09:14 PM

What about samoan men? Are they particularly healthy compared to other populations?


No, most Samoan men have the potential to carry enormous amounts of muscle and fat pretty naturally. Very good strength/power athletes. If they can manage to stay lean, they can have very impressive physiques that aren't that difficult to maintain.

See: Dwayne Johnson, half-Samoan.

#69 Chiggy

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 01:09 AM

Very interesting about Samoan's never knew that.



In response to strongbow:

As an example of dangerous steroid use:

If a naturally skinny person normally 140 pounds trains hard and takes steroids and reaches 280 then he probably is damaging his health for many reasons.

Stress on heart carrying all that muscle mass and while lifting the heavy weights required to hold that mass
Increased blood pressure due to lots of extra muscle mass
Quantity of steroids required to reach that bodyweight and just to maintain
Stress on the liver from quantity of steroids required to maintain.
Use of additional drugs with possible negative health side effects to counteract side effects from the quantity of steroids used.
Psychological damage caused by brain neurotransmitter changes
Stress on the digestive system due to quantities of food needed to maintain body weight.

There are many more reasons, but each person reacts differently, some people can be fine and suffer few health problems but others could suffer all the above and more.

However being mature and using steroids responsibly, and not trying to gain a massive unnatural increase in bodyweight and following cycles with regular blood work it could be done relatively safely, but still I would not recommend it.

Steroids are nowhere near as dangerous as some may think if used responsibly. Alcohol kills much more with little control or regulation of it.


What about samoan men? Are they particularly healthy compared to other populations?


No, most Samoan men have the potential to carry enormous amounts of muscle and fat pretty naturally. Very good strength/power athletes. If they can manage to stay lean, they can have very impressive physiques that aren't that difficult to maintain.

See: Dwayne Johnson, half-Samoan.



#70 Heliotrope

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 08:34 AM

yeah i think it's unhealthy too, tho a hard body sure looks mean.

one of my heroes is bruce lee. i just learned Bruce Lee the kung fu master and one of the greatest fighters, had approximately only 1% body fat!, maybe even a bit less than 1%, and it was unhealthy, lee still died at 32-yo from taking prescription painkiller w/o doctor's approval. who knows, if he had more fat, maybe he'd have lived.

Too bad, Bruce was one of the guys who actually advocated taking supplements (taking dozens of supplements himself and mixed his own drinks) and sought out Arnold Schwarznegger for body building tips. pound for pound, bruce lee was among the strongest w/ flesh made of pure muscle, used to think his body was a "deadly weapon" now after i look at his picture, i think "deadly"

btw, at the peak of my physical fitness which was back when i was 18, doing long-distance running, soccer, karate/kickboxing, a bit weight-lifting, exercised twice a day, I had 7 to 8% body fat, lowest ever was nearly 6% for a brief period as measured by a personal trainer. The trainer exclaimed " You have no fat!" but i still felt i had enough fat, though would be VERY flabby compared to bruce lee. now i quit all that. my stomach can form folds of fat when i sit and bow the back in a certain way, even knead it like dough LOL. I FELT DISGUSTING. but somehow i feel okay now. even a bit healthy ... How Weird IS THAT

Edited by HYP86, 26 June 2008 - 08:53 AM.


#71 Shepard

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 12:09 PM

i just learned Bruce Lee the kung fu master and one of the greatest fighters, had approximately only 1% body fat!, maybe even a bit less than 1%,


No, he didn't.

He could shoot lighting from his eyes, though.

#72 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 01:33 PM

Well isn't it very dangerous for a 140 lbs naturally skinny man to train hard and reach 280 lbs consisting of both muscles and fat although not using any steroids?

What about the heart?such a massive gain in body weight should itself seriously damage the heart as well as other organs.Wouldn't that mass put a lot of strain on it as well as the weight lifting itself?

#73 Shepard

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 03:47 PM

What about the heart?such a massive gain in body weight should itself seriously damage the heart as well as other organs.Wouldn't that mass put a lot of strain on it as well as the weight lifting itself?


The body does a wonderful thing called adaptation that you seem to be forgetting about. The wear may still be greater at a higher body weight, but it's not a linear relationship.

#74 Chiggy

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Posted 27 June 2008 - 12:19 AM

Agree with Shep.

Also, I doubt its even possible for a 140 pound man not using steroids to get to 280 with hard training unless he was very fat like some of the power lifters, maybe those Samoans can do it though and stay lean, who knows.

Just by being heavy, from fat or muscle the body will get stronger from lifting all the body weight around every day.

The weight gain is slow over time, so the body gets used to it and changes, tendons get stronger, the whole body structure changes.

If he was very fat I am sure his heart would suffer. His joints probably would too. Although again individuals vary greatly.


Well isn't it very dangerous for a 140 lbs naturally skinny man to train hard and reach 280 lbs consisting of both muscles and fat although not using any steroids?

What about the heart?such a massive gain in body weight should itself seriously damage the heart as well as other organs.Wouldn't that mass put a lot of strain on it as well as the weight lifting itself?


Edited by Chiggy, 27 June 2008 - 12:31 AM.


#75 pleb

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 09:37 AM

Well for one CR and getting bigger contradict each other. This is something I'm struggling with personally. As a naturally thin guy, I can gain fairly significant muscle, but only if I eat a lot of calories. I'm not doing CR and the biggest reason is vanity :( There I admitted it.

Same exact situation here. I'm a little jealous that women can engage in moderate CR and still maintain some degree of attractiveness. There is nothing sexually appealing about a man that looks like he's starving (that is not to say he won't have successful sexual relations, but I am certain they will not be based on visual lust for his physique).


I totaly agree on this, i'm moving to Mexico in about three months and while online found a Latin Dating site.
i was contacted by a very good looking Mexican woman who just wanted a friend, i had seen her profile and passed by as i figured she would have to many guys interested in her, but she had seen that i had visited her profile and she contacted me,
i did fall for her big time we chatted both online via skype and with emails almost every day,, but she was obsessed with guys with muscles and rejected me as a partner as i'm not a hunk, despite saying i was the nicest guy she had met, including the guy who she has now married,
it hurt like hell at the time, he's 4 years younger than me but looks a few years older but he had the muscles she was looking for, but it meant she has had to move to his country as he would not move to hers, all the giving in the relationship has been on her part, he has the same life he had before, she has had to give up almost everything,

#76 platypus

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 10:42 AM

I totaly agree on this, i'm moving to Mexico in about three months and while online found a Latin Dating site.
i was contacted by a very good looking Mexican woman who just wanted a friend, i had seen her profile and passed by as i figured she would have to many guys interested in her, but she had seen that i had visited her profile and she contacted me,
i did fall for her big time we chatted both online via skype and with emails almost every day,, but she was obsessed with guys with muscles and rejected me as a partner as i'm not a hunk, despite saying i was the nicest guy she had met, including the guy who she has now married,
it hurt like hell at the time, he's 4 years younger than me but looks a few years older but he had the muscles she was looking for, but it meant she has had to move to his country as he would not move to hers, all the giving in the relationship has been on her part, he has the same life he had before, she has had to give up almost everything,

Don't fall in the "nice guy" trap that just leads to LJBF (Let's Just Be Friends). Learn som game, there are tons of material online.

#77 pleb

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 10:55 AM

this was 4 years ago I was 63 then, she's in her 50's we were both past the playing games stage, despite her rejecting me we are still friends, i would have gone out to Mexico to meet her, but i was not what she was looking for,
also it was all on-line
but she had this obsession about guys with muscles, mainly i would guess because of her vanity which she admitted to on her profile, she wanted male elbow candy, only a hunk would do, and it was the game players she was trying to avoid,

#78 TheKidInside

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 07:34 PM

Besides prolonged heavy training keeps up the cortisol levels in the body which eventually has detrimental results on the mind. Maybe that's why athelethes tend to get the "stupid" label more often.


where on Earth did you get this from? Cortisol is involved in low-to-moderate activity like running LSD. So, if anything that is a problem for joggers and marathon runners.

#79 TheFountain

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:12 AM

Well for one CR and getting bigger contradict each other. This is something I'm struggling with personally. As a naturally thin guy, I can gain fairly significant muscle, but only if I eat a lot of calories. I'm not doing CR and the biggest reason is vanity :( There I admitted it.

Same exact situation here. I'm a little jealous that women can engage in moderate CR and still maintain some degree of attractiveness. There is nothing sexually appealing about a man that looks like he's starving (that is not to say he won't have successful sexual relations, but I am certain they will not be based on visual lust for his physique).


I totaly agree on this, i'm moving to Mexico in about three months and while online found a Latin Dating site.
i was contacted by a very good looking Mexican woman who just wanted a friend, i had seen her profile and passed by as i figured she would have to many guys interested in her, but she had seen that i had visited her profile and she contacted me,
i did fall for her big time we chatted both online via skype and with emails almost every day,, but she was obsessed with guys with muscles and rejected me as a partner as i'm not a hunk, despite saying i was the nicest guy she had met, including the guy who she has now married,
it hurt like hell at the time, he's 4 years younger than me but looks a few years older but he had the muscles she was looking for, but it meant she has had to move to his country as he would not move to hers, all the giving in the relationship has been on her part, he has the same life he had before, she has had to give up almost everything,


^^^ I don't get stuff like this.

I am lean and have fairly low body fat that fluctuates between 9% and 11% most of the time but I am not a bulky muscle man, just lean and tight, and the type of female who I would be interested in would be the type who prefer my body type, who also so happen to follow the same philosophy I do regarding the relationship between the body and the brain. Meaning we understand the importance of physical health, but we realize that does not mean having to be a hulk in the process. The other part of this philosophy is an integrative relationship between the body and the mind. One does not take precedence over the other. Harmony. I assume other life extensionists would share this philosophy and want women who share it in their lives. And yes, the women I date are beautiful on the outside too and none are overweight or out of shape. And gee, it just so happens they are attracted to men who are NOT hulking monsters.

Besides prolonged heavy training keeps up the cortisol levels in the body which eventually has detrimental results on the mind. Maybe that's why athelethes tend to get the "stupid" label more often.


where on Earth did you get this from? Cortisol is involved in low-to-moderate activity like running LSD. So, if anything that is a problem for joggers and marathon runners.

Where did YOU get that running of all things is a "low to moderate activity"?

You guys gotta stop making stuff up man.

I totaly agree on this, i'm moving to Mexico in about three months and while online found a Latin Dating site.
i was contacted by a very good looking Mexican woman who just wanted a friend, i had seen her profile and passed by as i figured she would have to many guys interested in her, but she had seen that i had visited her profile and she contacted me,
i did fall for her big time we chatted both online via skype and with emails almost every day,, but she was obsessed with guys with muscles and rejected me as a partner as i'm not a hunk, despite saying i was the nicest guy she had met, including the guy who she has now married,
it hurt like hell at the time, he's 4 years younger than me but looks a few years older but he had the muscles she was looking for, but it meant she has had to move to his country as he would not move to hers, all the giving in the relationship has been on her part, he has the same life he had before, she has had to give up almost everything,

Don't fall in the "nice guy" trap that just leads to LJBF (Let's Just Be Friends). Learn som game, there are tons of material online.

I just slap a bitches ass when I need to.

Edited by TheFountain, 03 September 2012 - 12:08 AM.


#80 TheKidInside

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:19 AM

Because that's what running is....also from the physio view point it's utilizing oxygen and is therefore is an "o2 energy pathway" otherwise you wouldn't prolong the expenditure past a few moments like an intense sprint, 40 or 100 yard dash....LOL regardless during running it's cortisol ;-)

#81 pleb

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:16 AM

I agree that most women are not attracted to hulking monsters, but when your on a dating site the first thing you see is a face whether your a woman or a man,
you don't look at their profile first and then decide, it's that first photo that attracts you, if she has a face like the back of a bus you go past you don't even look at her profile and think well she may have the same Philosophy as me so i'll put up with the fact that she's butt ugly,
you look at the profile after the photo has attracted you, and quite often see that what they are interested in may be different to yours so then you pass them by, but it always comes down to that initial photo, I've seen a few who i liked from their picture but then decided AFTER looking at their profile she was not what, i was looking for the the physical attraction comes first and the as you call it philosophy comes after wards, and as they say beauty IS in the eye of the beholder,
as it turned out she thought i was a good looking guy but i was to slim she was obsessed with muscles,and looking for a hunk, that was her philosophy,

#82 nowayout

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:15 PM

There will always be women (and men) who are obsessed with bulky muscles in a partner, and who will not return our interest if that is not our body type. It sucks if for whatever reason we get hung up on them, especially if we get to a point in our life where it feels as if our prospects are dwindling, but we just have to remind ourselves that there are tons of good people (and good-looking people) out there who like guys who are not bulky, as any walk in the street in any city will prove.

Meeting one of them is difficult, though, especially if you don't live in a big city, as I know from experience. It is even more the case in a large part of the male gay world that your body is never good enough, which drives a lot of us to steroids.

Edited by viveutvivas, 03 September 2012 - 04:26 PM.


#83 TheFountain

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 03:44 AM

Getting back to the original topic. I find it interesting that two famous people with fairly bulky looking physiques just died of heart related problems. At fairly young ages too.

Michael Clarke Duncan at 54
Posted Image

And mark Abrahamian, aged 46. Guitarist for 'Starship' apparently.

Posted Image

What's the deal here?

Edited by TheFountain, 04 September 2012 - 03:46 AM.


#84 zorba990

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:06 AM

Then there is this guy:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Jack_LaLanne

#85 TheFountain

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:11 AM

Then there is this guy:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Jack_LaLanne

I agree with you. But couldn't Jack be described as more lean/muscular rather than bulky/muscular? What's up with those two famous people who died today, both of which having quite muscular physiques and fairly low body fat? That bugs me out.

#86 nowayout

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:15 AM

Then there is this guy:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Jack_LaLanne

I agree with you. But couldn't Jack be described as more lean/muscular rather than bulky/muscular? What's up with those two famous people who died today, both of which having quite muscular physiques and fairly low body fat? That bugs me out.


Coincidence, probably.

But yes, while I am not saying it is the case for either individual, exogenous steroids and exogenous growth hormone use have been implicated in heart problems, notably enlargement of the heart, as have the kinds of diets used for bulking and the stimulants used for cutting. Your second example is not really that bulky in my opinion, but being a rocker, who knows what drugs he has used in his life? Cocaine and amphetamines can also cause heart problems.

I have actually lately seen a rash of news reports of cardiac deaths of young muscular men, apparently in enviable physical shape, due to from some combination of recreational drug use and steroid use. I suspect the recreational drugs tend to have more to do with it than the steroid use, but who knows?

Edited by viveutvivas, 04 September 2012 - 04:30 AM.


#87 zorba990

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 05:09 AM

Then there is this guy:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Jack_LaLanne

I agree with you. But couldn't Jack be described as more lean/muscular rather than bulky/muscular? What's up with those two famous people who died today, both of which having quite muscular physiques and fairly low body fat? That bugs me out.

 

I wouldn't call the second picture bulky.  Jack Lalanne looks at least as big as that guy in his youth.  

http://www.success.com/articles/684-founding-father-of-fitness

 

In any case, diet obviously plays a role as does cardio shape.  Just bulking to a huge size (steroid enhanced or not) seems unlikely to be healthy.   Dare I call Michael Duncan fat?   I think he was for a lot of his life.   Just because you have alot of muscle also doesn't mean you are not obese.   There are some pictures of him with a fairly large gut at 300lbs.  

 

http://aznbadger.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/michael-clarke-duncan-6205.jpg

 

He apparently recently switched to a vegetarian diet.   No idea if that helped him extend his life or not.   There is a lot of Hollywood information that is, um, well less than truthful when probed to any depth.   Drug use is much higher than reported (IMO) and some OTC 'supplements' now contain many unsafe stimulants and pro-hormones providing easy access to bulk up and rip up in a less than healthy manner.  I think Hollywood and professional athletics are skewing the stats with this in that the drug use outweighs the fitness lifestyle in effect.  Shoot, just look at Jean Claude Van Damm lately.  Yikes!

 

http://screencrave.com/2010-10-20/jean-claude-van-damme-suffers-heart-attack/

 

Stallone (unreported) and Arnold (reported) have both had heart issues.   They explain them away with nice stories but it seems fairly obvious that drugs have played a role.

 

Probably moderation works best.   Eating junk or starving yourself probably depletes minerals like magnesium. Old bodybuilders... some are still out there... we'll see how they fare...

 

 

Attached Files


Edited by zorba990, 04 September 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#88 TheFountain

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:18 PM

Then there is this guy:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Jack_LaLanne

I agree with you. But couldn't Jack be described as more lean/muscular rather than bulky/muscular? What's up with those two famous people who died today, both of which having quite muscular physiques and fairly low body fat? That bugs me out.


I wouldn't call the second picture bulky. Jack Lalanne looks at least as big as that guy in his youth.
http://www.success.c...ther-of-fitness

In any case, diet obviously plays a role as does cardio shape. Just bulking to a huge size (steroid enhanced or not) seems unlikely to be healthy. Dare I call Michael Duncan fat? I think he was for a lot of his life. Just because you have alot of muscle also doesn't mean you are not obese. There are some pictures of him with a fairly large gut at 300lbs.

http://aznbadger.fil...duncan-6205.jpg

He apparently recently switched to a vegetarian diet. No idea if that helped him extend his life or not. There is a lot of Hollywood information that is, um, well less than truthful when probed to any depth. Drug use is much higher than reported (IMO) and some OTC 'supplements' now contain many unsafe stimulants and pro-hormones providing easy access to bulk up and rip up in a less than healthy manner. I think Hollywood and professional athletics are skewing the stats with this in that the drug use outweighs the fitness lifestyle in effect. Shoot, just look at Jean Claude Van Damm lately. Yikes!

http://screencrave.c...s-heart-attack/

Stallone (unreported) and Arnold (reported) have both had heart issues. They explain them away with nice stories but it seems fairly obvious that drugs have played a role.

Probably moderation works best. Eating junk or starving yourself probably depletes minerals like magnesium. Old bodybuilders... some are still out there... we'll see how they fare...




What are some of these OTC stimulants you are referring to that may causes problems? And what does magnesium depletion lead to other than electrolyte imbalance?

#89 zorba990

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 06:39 PM

What are some of these OTC stimulants you are referring to that may causes problems? And what does magnesium depletion lead to other than electrolyte imbalance?


e.g. DMAA, http://www.nytimes.c...r-2-deaths.html
before that
phenylpropanolamine PPA
before that
ECA stack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECA_stack

How Magnesium prevent heart disease: http://www.naturalne...al_disease.html

#90 TheFountain

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 03:20 AM


What are some of these OTC stimulants you are referring to that may causes problems? And what does magnesium depletion lead to other than electrolyte imbalance?


e.g. DMAA, http://www.nytimes.c...r-2-deaths.html
before that
phenylpropanolamine PPA
before that
ECA stack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECA_stack

How Magnesium prevent heart disease: http://www.naturalne...al_disease.html

Some of those are pharmaceutical agents and I would not define those as supplements.




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