23 replies to this topic

[Mind]

Peter Diamandis, Ray Kurzweil, Marc Adreessen, Elon Musk, and many other outrageously wealthy entrepreneurs, have been selling the idea of technological progress and a world of abundance for a couple of decades now. They keep claiming year after year that everything is going to be free or nearly so.

 

The reality is exactly the opposite, from the perspective of material wealth in the traditional sense - such as "the American Dream".

 

There are many examples that I will list in this thread, but I will start out with one obvious example: Air Travel.

 

Your typical middle and lower class person cannot fly very often because it keeps getting more and more expensive and less reliable every year. For those who fly commercial, it is about to get worse. Not only will you be paying more for a flight in the future, you will be even more cramped and uncomfortable than before.

 

There have been innumerable advancements in materials, engine design, efficiency, etc... over the last couple of decades but air travel has become more expensive and miserable for the general flying public. You don't even get a complimentary snack or beverage on some flights. You have to pay more and more for your luggage.

 

In a world of "abundance", we would all be flying in large comfortable/reclining seats, with complimentary food, at an easily affordable price. (business class amenities at a commercial class price)

 

There is no sign that air travel will get any more "abundant" anytime soon.

[Mind]

Something as simple as electricity is another example. For most people in the US - it is getting more expensive. In places with high implementation of solar and wind power the prices are even higher on average.

 

Where is the abundant nearly free energy?

 

It is even worse than you think. Where I live in Wisconsin, it is not an ideal location for solar farms - but we are getting them anyway.

 

So we pay taxes to subsidize renewable energy (1st expense)

Then we pay high electricity bills after implementation (2nd expense)

Our forests and farmland are also being destroyed to put in the "farms" (3rd expense)

 

To cap it all off - if CO2 is causing "global warming" - these expenses are a meaningless sacrifice because China emits more CO2 than the almost all of the rest of the world combined!!

 

In addition, AI data centers are causing a spike in electricity bills. So the same extremely wealthy guys (yes, they are almost all men), who talk about abundance all the time are the same ones causing our lives to be more expensive and difficult (while they are possibly creating a new form of intelligence that could torture and kill us all.)

[adamh]

Musk and others are right. There is a lot of potential in robotics, ai, and the internet. One reason the rollout of benefits has been slow is because of political logjams. Politicians want to keep stuffing their pockets and the dinosaur industries that will be impacted by new advances don't want to rock the boat.

 

China offers robots now for less than $10k, good quality ones may cost double that but that is cheap if it can do a job like work an assembly line or any number of repetitive tasks as well as customer service. A bot on the phone will be easier to understand than the typical indian call center and will have all information. Farming is becoming automated as are other industries.

 

I know you assume the worst possible outcome, killer robots, everyone out of work, etc but the benefits are numerous. Mass production brought goods to the public at low prices. It put a lot of people out of work but it created even more jobs than it lost. People with an outlook much like yours used to sabotage factories when they first appeared, believing much as you do that the jobs will be lost forever. It turned out not to be true, factories and mass production have turned out to be a great benefit.

 

A factory that fires all workers replaced with robots will turn a huge profit that the govt will tax. It will also cause prices to come down, the factory owner will not be able to keep all the savings to himself. They say half the population is getting some sort of govt assistance, that will simply be expanded, paid for by increased tax revenue from bots.

[Mind]

Musk and others are right. There is a lot of potential in robotics, ai, and the internet. One reason the rollout of benefits has been slow is because of political logjams. Politicians want to keep stuffing their pockets and the dinosaur industries that will be impacted by new advances don't want to rock the boat.

 

China offers robots now for less than $10k, good quality ones may cost double that but that is cheap if it can do a job like work an assembly line or any number of repetitive tasks as well as customer service. A bot on the phone will be easier to understand than the typical indian call center and will have all information. Farming is becoming automated as are other industries.

 

I know you assume the worst possible outcome, killer robots, everyone out of work, etc but the benefits are numerous. Mass production brought goods to the public at low prices. It put a lot of people out of work but it created even more jobs than it lost. People with an outlook much like yours used to sabotage factories when they first appeared, believing much as you do that the jobs will be lost forever. It turned out not to be true, factories and mass production have turned out to be a great benefit.

 

A factory that fires all workers replaced with robots will turn a huge profit that the govt will tax. It will also cause prices to come down, the factory owner will not be able to keep all the savings to himself. They say half the population is getting some sort of govt assistance, that will simply be expanded, paid for by increased tax revenue from bots.

 

I like your optimistic take, however, this vision has been sold to us for decades now and none of it has come true.

 

You mentioned farming. Farming has been automated to a huge extent over the last few decades. Yet grocery bills are as high as they have ever been. Food in restaurants is more expensive than it has ever been. Just the other night I was with two people. I bought a round of beer (served in a plastic cup no less) and it cost $20 for 3 beers (plus $2.00 tip). Just ten years ago the same round of beer plus a tip was LESS than $10.

 

What is relatively cheap (inflation-adjusted) is non-nutritious ultra-processed crap in a box. Good, whole, nutritious, and delicious food is becoming out of reach for the common consumer. Instead of "abundance" we are getting very expensive food - even as farming has become highly automated. 

 

In the future, we might all be eating techno-slop made in a lab.

 

Meanwhile, I guarantee all of the tech billionaires never touch the crappy food or the techno-slop. I would be willing to bet that their families are always eating top-of-the-line quality organic food.

[Mind]

What about health care and medicine. Where is the abundance?

 

All a common person has to do is step into a hospital and they will go broke. Even if they don't get any treatments, diagnosis, cures, or tests. This sounds a little hyperbolic, but it is close to the truth. I went to the walk in clinic a couple of years ago for a tick bite. I saw a nurse for 5 minutes who did the normal questionnaire thing. I saw a doctor for 2 minutes, then got a Lyme disease test. The cost was $1,300. The same routine today is well over $3,000.

 

The diagnostics and testing are highly automated. The questionnaire is digital. Hospitals have implemented all kinds of efficiencies (just like every other industry), yet "healthcare" is outrageously expensive. Why is Medicare and Medicaid going bankrupt? Because healthcare is outrageously expensive.

 

Real healthcare is NOT "abundant". What is abundant is expensive medication that doesn't cure any disease and comes with innumerable negative side effects. All of the baby boomer generation is being drained of their wealth taking 20 pills a day until they are out of money, then the "system" tosses them out on the street to die.

 

If we were living in the promised age of abundance (promised for over two decades now), we would have cures and they would be cheap and widely available. We have just the opposite.

[Mind]

Housing? Don't make me laugh and say anything about "abundance".

 

Housing costs are skyrocketing. Rental costs are skyrocketing. Living space is diminishing. The average person in the US has little hope of enjoying a spacious/beautiful living arrangement for lost cost. The tech billionaires who talk about abundance all the time typically have multiple luxury apartments/homes. The rest of us are increasingly being crammed into little boxes.

Edited by Mind, 13 August 2025 - 05:47 PM.

[Mind]

Crappy social media entertainment is abundant.

 

High quality human art - not so much.

 

What is the price of a concert ticket to any A-list musician? $100 at a minimum. How about sports? A family of four going to an NFL game might drop $500 or more - paying several dollars for a single hot dog. What about streaming entertainment? The prices keep inching upward every year while the quality of the shows is diminished. Movies in the theatre? $20 per ticket.

 

Current entertainment is like the food supply mentioned above. If you want to eat ultra-processed crap in a box - that is somewhat affordable. If you want to scroll endlessly on your phone for good entertainment - you can find a little here and there. Step out into the real world and real quality human entertainment is super expensive - not abundant.

[Mind]

One thing we certainly have is an abundance of is taxes. Every community, every municipality, every state, and every nation is finding new ways to tax the common person.

 

If new efficiencies were truly being implemented throughout the structure of government, taxes would be going down. There would be less tax and less regulation in an "abundant" society. Instead, just the opposite is happening. 

[Mind]

Insurance? Getting more expensive with less coverage year after year.

 

The deductible in the "high deductible" health plans are getting higher every year, while what is approved or covered gets less every year.

 

My house insurance has ended full coverage for roofs - only partial coverage for roofs - depending upon the age. Yet, I pay more in insurance costs every year because the assessment on my house keeps going up.

 

Insurance companies are increasingly using a tactic of denying all claims until someone complains and or threatens legal action.

 

Insurance might be available, but it is certainly not affordable (abundant).

[adamh]

Ok gloomy gus, things are indeed more expensive now, its called inflation. People behind the scenes are making billions but in spite of increased productivity, wages compared to prices have gone down. This is not because of robots and automation, its in spite of it. Its an economic situation, not a technical one. The increased productivity goes into the pockets of the moguls while the workers struggle. This is because there is no end to greed with some people and there are flaws in the economy that allow massive profit taking to take place. Its also due to stupid govt policies that encourage inefficiency

 

The technical solution is more automation and robotics, not less. This reduces further the costs of production and distribution. There may be a political and economic solution also but politics is a dirty business. If a widget that used to cost $5 to make and sells for $15 can be produced for $1.25, then the retail price will inevitably fall. 

 

More automation makes farming more productive. We discussed robots that can zap harmful insects with lasers while leaving beneficial bugs behind. This is not only more efficient, it reduces or eliminates the use of harmful pesticides making our food safer. Feral hogs can be dealt with the same way, the laser won't kill them but it hurts so they run.

 

"If new efficiencies were truly being implemented throughout the structure of government, taxes would be going down. There would be less tax and less regulation in an "abundant" society. Instead, just the opposite is happening."

 

Back to politics. Government is one of the most inefficient structures and is ripe for embezzlement and corruption. Get the humans out, have robots do the administrative tasks. They don't steal and don't need a salary. Inspectors, clerical, everything can be automated. If a mistake is made, It isn't he said she said, its all recorded minute by minute and fixed rapidly. State as well as feds can be cleaned up, trump is trying to do it but that is another topic entirely.

 

Insurance is another racket, I don't even have insurance on my property and have saved a large amount over the years. I had one event in the last 40 years that might have paid me back a little but it would not have covered even one years premiums. Self insuring means if something happens, I fix it right away instead of dealing with adjusters whose entire job revolves around denying as much of your claim as they can. "You don't have all the receipts?" Having a fire is no excuse and no receipts means you are at their mercy. After a long wait, they make an offer, if they have not denied the claim outright, and the offer is always way less that what it will take to make you whole again. Now after waiting months, your only option is to sue to get what you deserve and wait longer or take the bad offer. Meanwhile rain is coming in and your house is uninhabitable. 

 

"What is the price of a concert ticket to any A-list musician? $100 at a minimum. How about sports? A family of four going to an NFL game might drop $500 or more - paying several dollars for a single hot dog. What about streaming entertainment? The prices keep inching upward every year while the quality of the shows is diminished. Movies in the theatre? $20 per ticket."

 

Hollywood is crap nowdays, full of political correctness and left tard nonsense like trans. Soon ai will make all films and those high priced actors will be out of a job. AI art is getting better and soon they will take over music and other fields. Football too is infected with PC and liberal crapola

 

You of course say why hasn't all this happened already? The technology is evolving and much of it is not yet mature. AI still makes up facts and lies occasionally. Lawyers have been caught using it to prepare briefs and arguments but then the cases they cite turn out to be non existent. Little by little it makes life easier and eventually the economic benefits will kick in

[Mind]

You make some good points, but you also hit on the problem. Business Moguls and Governments are not in it for "the people" or for "abundance for all". You have to make an argument that somehow prices are going to go down. I don't see it. Robotics companies are in it to make a profit. Robots are going to be expensive. Companies that purchase robots are going to charge obscene amounts for their products.

 

That fact is, material wealth is not more "abundant" than it was in the recent past and there is no sign that it will be more abundant anytime soon. Prices are not going down. The common person cannot afford the nice amenities that their grandparents did. They are slaves to debt. The business moguls like it that way. They aren't going to relinquish their hold on money and power anytime soon. They will just continue singing the siren song of "abundance" while raking in the cash.

[pamojja]

Ok gloomy gus, things are indeed more expensive now, its called inflation. People behind the scenes are making billions but in spite of increased productivity, wages compared to prices have gone down. This is not because of robots and automation, its in spite of it. Its an economic situation, not a technical one. The increased productivity goes into the pockets of the moguls while the workers struggle. This is because there is no end to greed with some people and there are flaws in the economy that allow massive profit taking to take place. Its also due to stupid govt policies that encourage inefficiency.

 

I really can't solve the chicken or egg problem here. Technical advance was always first put to use by those in power. Think of horse chariots of antiquity. So with every technical advance or industrial revolutions. With which the extent of international, unfathomable inflation was made possible in the first place only. With the simple invention of the printing press, now digital currency. All still in the hand of those in power, and of course primarily to create abundance for themselves, foremost.
 

Inflation was always a tool by those in power, to compensate for spending money out of thin air. Which created technical advance and industrial revolutions. Someone had to pay the bill for that in a world with limited resources. But too much thin air in the hands of a few.

 

That fact is, material wealth is not more "abundant" than it was in the recent past and there is no sign that it will be more abundant anytime soon. Prices are not going down. The common person cannot afford the nice amenities that their grandparents did. They are slaves to debt. The business moguls like it that way.

 

I was away on ruck-sack 3rd world travel from 1993 to 2002. Back the first I mentioned were all the technical gadgets, very few could afford before I left. Complaining about lack of wealth surprisingly had become abundant in such a changed situation. Needs had clearly increased, too, with the endless bombardment of advertisements and media.

 

My grandparents lived off self-grown potatoes, raised pigs, and day-jobs. My parents had everything materially, but beside work never learned to enjoy (or had time for their children). I, now myself possibly a parent too (which I consciously tried to avoid, for not falling in the same mind-numbing trap as my parents), can afford food, shelter, and for remissions from health problems, supplements, and still can fly every winter for vacation to a tropical beach (if not necessary I would avoid flying) - all that by a 60% part-time white-collar job. My ancestors, through their evolving and societal influenced needs, could only dream of. 

 

However, I could reach satisfied circumstances only by questioning real needs (no need for cars, house, tv, children with no time for them, etc.) Thereby, I could also minimize my support fur such an unethical economy, based on exploitation of weaker members of society as much as possible. Many are not in that situation, and lack of abundance will become more than ever.

 

Abundance was always the advertisement for technological progress, transferring wealth, the intention behind. The situation for grandparents was of course much different after world-war 2 in the US, but now much worse for those with real needs, than for example in Central Europe. Not to talk about developing countries.

Edited by pamojja, 21 August 2025 - 12:49 PM.

[adamh]

You have to make an argument that somehow prices are going to go down. I don't see it. Robotics companies are in it to make a profit. Robots are going to be expensive. Companies that purchase robots are going to charge obscene amounts for their products.

 

China is offering bots for under $10k, I've seen videos of them doing repetitive tasks like what might be done in a factory. A robot's ongoing costs are only electricity and maintenance, no $25 to $40 an hour union wages. If a company can lower costs from $5 per unit to $1, they will lower the retail price. They have no choice, if they try to charge "obscene" amounts for the product, simple economic principles dictate that customers stop buying it and buy the cheaper version. Companies constantly compete on price and features, if they can sell for a buck cheaper and take more market share, they do it. Your company that tries to keep prices high, goes under

 

"That fact is, material wealth is not more "abundant" than it was in the recent past and there is no sign that it will be more abundant anytime soon. Prices are not going down"

 

Electronics among many other things, have come down in price dramatically. In your grandparents day, they had no air conditioning, no tv, may not have had a phone or radio. Today, even poor people even those on welfare have all those things and plenty to eat. Just take a look at the land whales walking around. Adjusting for inflation, all those things have come down dramatically.

 

" The common person cannot afford the nice amenities that their grandparents did. They are slaves to debt."

 

The common person today is a fool. They do not save or invest, they did a survey and found that 50% of the public could not cover a $1000 unexpected expense without borrowing. And around half of people near retirement age had little more than social security to count on. Whose fault is that?

 

The reason for all that has little to do with companies charging too high prices. A lot has to do with outdated regulations that drive up the cost to do business as well as taxes. They find that some insect is "threatened" and forbid the company to build a mine, a factory or anything else so they have to spend much more to do it. They mandate hiring incompetent people based on skin color or ethnicity. They can't be fired because that would be racism. Fire the white guy and hire 2 blacks to take his place

 

"They (moguls) aren't going to relinquish their hold on money and power anytime soon. They will just continue singing the siren song of "abundance" while raking in the cash.

 

There is some truth to that, some people have to have more and more even if it does not help them any. If you have a billion, making a million dollars does you no good, its just a numbers game. They are not going to buy another yacht or mansion, they have dozens already. But they will cheat to make that million extra
 

(pamoja) Inflation was always a tool by those in power, to compensate for spending money out of thin air.

 

Yes, via money printing, so called QE and the fed buying us treasuries that no one else wanted. The value of the dollar has declined by at least 98% since 1913 when the fed was created. In the 50's 60's and even 70's one man could with one job support a family, buy a house and car and have enough for retirement

[Mind]

 

 

China is offering bots for under $10k, I've seen videos of them doing repetitive tasks like what might be done in a factory. A robot's ongoing costs are only electricity and maintenance, no $25 to $40 an hour union wages. If a company can lower costs from $5 per unit to $1, they will lower the retail price. They have no choice, if they try to charge "obscene" amounts for the product, simple economic principles dictate that customers stop buying it and buy the cheaper version. Companies constantly compete on price and features, if they can sell for a buck cheaper and take more market share, they do it. Your company that tries to keep prices high, goes under

 

I understand market dynamics, of course, but those dynamics are obviously not in play right now. You have to make an argument why prices will go down and there will be "radical abundance"  - when that has not happened in the last 50 years. My grandparents DID have electricity, AC, refrigerators, etc... Now those exact same items are outrageously expensive (not to mentions cars, air travel, health care, housing, etc...) Everything is outrageously expensive EVEN though there have been radical advances in technology, business processes, and efficiency over the past 50 years. If 50 years of advancements did not produce "abundance" for the common man, why would robots suddenly be able to do it?

 

The hypothetical UBI will never match the purchasing power of out grandparent's generation. You will not be travelling around the world "business class" on the UBI. You will be a pauper. 

 

If things continue on as is, robots/AI will take everyone's job/career/income and then kill everyone. What is the use of having people around consuming resources if they are useless. We are staring at a dystopian future.

[adamh]

"Everything is outrageously expensive EVEN though there have been radical advances in technology, business processes, and efficiency over the past 50 years. If 50 years of advancements did not produce "abundance" for the common man, why would robots suddenly be able to do it?"

 

There is where you are wrong, prices for most things like the tv, phone, have come way down. You are simply not taking into account inflation. There was a time when people would work for 25 cents an hour and thought it was a good wage because others worked for 10 cents. If wages have gone up x50 or even x100, why are you surprised to see prices rise equally? The cost in real terms has gone down.

 

" My grandparents DID have electricity, AC, refrigerators, etc..."

 

I bet they didn't have ac growing up. That is a later invention. They likely had an ice box

 

Another thing you are not taking into account is the fact that work conditions have improved drastically since early 20th century. There was child labor, 12 hour days and even longer, no overtime and you could be fired for speaking up. In the later 20th we got the 40 hour week, time and a half for overtime, no child labor, etc

 

"If things continue on as is, robots/AI will take everyone's job/career/income and then kill everyone. What is the use of having people around consuming resources if they are useless. We are staring at a dystopian future."

 

That is simply a statement of belief, you have no evidence to back it up. It also makes no sense because robots do not have the ability to kill everyone or anyone except under certain circumstances. You say you understand market dynamics but you fail to see the obvious which is that if robots do the work for super cheap, there will be a surplus of profit that can be used to pay off everyone. Do you realize around half the country today receives some sort of benefit from govt like food stamps, free tuition and so on? Giving everyone $40k a year basic income is just ramping it up a bit

 

"The hypothetical UBI will never match the purchasing power of out grandparent's generation. You will not be travelling around the world "business class" on the UBI. You will be a pauper. "

 

Again, a statement of belief. With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. This post of yours does not rise to your usual level. You usually give logical statements in support. Perhaps you were tired and just jotted down angry feelings?

 

When efficiencies lower the cost of manufacturing or farming, the reduced costs are eventually passed to the consumer. This has always happened throughout history. At times the benefits are hoarded by certain groups, and this happens still today. But the benefits always end up with the common folk. What happens then is that they demand more and use more so they are spending more than before not due to price rises but because they consume more goods and services

 

The secret to getting ahead is the same as it was 50 or 100 years ago and even farther back. Work, save instead of spending, and invest in something that will help you down the road

[Mind]

 

 

When efficiencies lower the cost of manufacturing or farming, the reduced costs are eventually passed to the consumer. This has always happened throughout history. At times the benefits are hoarded by certain groups, and this happens still today. But the benefits always end up with the common folk. What happens then is that they demand more and use more so they are spending more than before not due to price rises but because they consume more goods and services

 

This is the crux of the matter. We have had decades of efficiencies - yet everything is outrageously expensive for the common person. Talk to any person on the street (outside of Silicon Valley or Wall Street) and they are depressed that they cannot afford a home, cannot afford groceries, etc...

 

You have astutely pointed out that inflation is out of control and wages are down (which is crushing the hopes and futures of common middle class people), but you have not made any argument as to how robots and AI are going to reverse those particular trends. There is no sign that any government is going to stop printing money - and thus inflation will continue. With robots coming on to the scene, wages will go down, not up because human labor will be worthless (except for a very few skilled jobs). People will have less money and everything will cost more.

 

In the world that all of the tech billionaires have promised (radical abundance) wages would be going up and prices would be going down. Just the opposite is happening. 

[adamh]

"This is the crux of the matter. We have had decades of efficiencies - yet everything is outrageously expensive for the common person."

 

And you blame this on robotics somehow? The blame lies squarely with the economic system itself along with govt interference. We have already discussed how electronics have dropped a lot in cost over recent decades. So thats not it. Housing prices keep going up and up because taxes go up constantly. You haven't mentioned a word about the government tax burden but that keeps people down more so than price gouging. Insane regulations have become the norm, a "snail darter" some tiny fish no one cares about is threatened so vast areas must be set aside and you can't build on your land. They have to do an ecological study and 20 different agencies have to give approval. Try to build a new refinery and it may be decades before its built or before they finally give up unable to get approval

 

"There is no sign that any government is going to stop printing money - and thus inflation will continue."

 

Like I've been saying, govt is the problem, not the solution. The green energy initiatives soak up vast amounts of taxpayer money with nothing to show for it. Wind farms are a failure; they fall apart rapidly and spread pollution in the form of oil all over the area they are on. Does that sound green? Solar only lasts a few years, is expensive and doesn't work when the sun doesn't shine. Nuclear has worked for many years, rain or shine, windy or calm but the greenies don't want it so electricity is expensive

 

Put the blame where it belongs, on obstructive govt regulations, high taxes, and insane "green" projects that don't work. Remember the high speed train to nowhere in cali? Newscum wants to continue the boondoggle that has wasted billions over years and will never be completed. Citizens have to pay for this govt stupidity.

 

Attacking robotics which have already brought great savings is backward. In the industrial revolution you would be one of those against factories because the jobs "will never come back" and yet they did. Should we get rid of the assembly lines and programmable machinery that saves huge amounts of labor? After all, things are still expensive so it must not work. You want to end robots since things are expensive, might as well go all the way

 

"In the world that all of the tech billionaires have promised (radical abundance) wages would be going up and prices would be going down. Just the opposite is happening. "

 

So you don't want the billionaires to make more money? How do you expect them to move up on the world's list of richest persons? How can you be so heartless? They must make their money first then the crumbs trickle down to the rest of us, the way its always been. If you want to make the system better talk about fixing the system, get rid of stupid regulations and burdensome taxes. Why when you buy a house with money you were taxed on, you have to continue paying the government to live there? You own nothing

 

Products are expensive also because govt imposes racial quotas on business. They will deny there is a quota, will say its illegal and does not exist. But if a big company does not meet the quota, they may get a lawsuit from the  doj and be forced to hire more and more unqualified people to meet the outrageous demands from the court. They changed the name from quota to "must look like the community" If there are 20% blacks in the community, most of whom have no training, may not  speak english, then the company must hire 20% of black workers and the board and ceo, vp and so on must meet that standard too. Under far leftists like biden, this happened a lot

 

But lets get rid of the robots then we will all be fine

[Mind]

 

 

And you blame this on robotics somehow? The blame lies squarely with the economic system itself along with govt interference. 

 

I am not blaming automation/robots or new efficient business processes. I am asking you to make an argument as to why these (robots and AI) will make a difference in the current economic system with government interference - which has caused the life of the average person to get much much worse. There is no "radical abundance" (as has been predicted for decades now) and I would be willing to bet the robots and AI will only make the current system worse for the average person. People will get stuck on a UBI/welfare that will make it impossible for them to own a home, afford a new car, purchase high quality food, or travel around the world.

[adamh]

I already explained how more efficiency lowers the cost of goods. Did you think they would send everyone a check for hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions? It sounds like you expected something like that. Your "radical abundance" sounds like pie in the sky everyone has everything they want. Its not realistic. Saudi arabia is one of the richest countries on earth but if you go there will you instantly become rich? Of course not, you have to work for it. Same here. The people doing well did not spend every cent they made as so many have done, they saved and invested, now they are comfortable or much better off than they were. The big spenders usually live beyond their means and are poor and in debt. 

 

If you are asking how increases in efficiency will lift the lazy people up, for the ones who want things handed to them, about all they will get is some ubi but despite your beliefs, most of them would be very happy with that. You refuse to discuss the political problems which cause the economy to flatten but there is where a lot of the hang up lies. Stupid money wasting regulations are a big part of it but you never rail against that, you just want to know why the rainbow and unicorns haven't arrived yet

 

Explain why you think everyone should be rolling in abundance instead of demanding an answer why lazy people are poor. I already told you

[Mind]

I already explained how more efficiency lowers the cost of goods. Did you think they would send everyone a check for hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions? It sounds like you expected something like that. Your "radical abundance" sounds like pie in the sky everyone has everything they want. Its not realistic. Saudi arabia is one of the richest countries on earth but if you go there will you instantly become rich? Of course not, you have to work for it. Same here. The people doing well did not spend every cent they made as so many have done, they saved and invested, now they are comfortable or much better off than they were. The big spenders usually live beyond their means and are poor and in debt. 

 

If you are asking how increases in efficiency will lift the lazy people up, for the ones who want things handed to them, about all they will get is some ubi but despite your beliefs, most of them would be very happy with that. You refuse to discuss the political problems which cause the economy to flatten but there is where a lot of the hang up lies. Stupid money wasting regulations are a big part of it but you never rail against that, you just want to know why the rainbow and unicorns haven't arrived yet

 

Explain why you think everyone should be rolling in abundance instead of demanding an answer why lazy people are poor. I already told you

 

If radical abundance does not mean material wealth, what does it mean?

 

Here is another example of how things are getting worse for the the average person. Back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I could get an airplane ticket to Las Vegas (from Wisconsin) for $99, plus a two night stay at a hotel was free, if you packaged it together. Now Las Vegas is struggling because the average person can no longer afford to go there. Buffets used to be all you can eat for $10. Now you pay over $10 for a single bagel. This is not "radical" abundance.

[adamh]

"If radical abundance does not mean material wealth, what does it mean?"

 

You seem to think that it means everyone gets a fat check or something. There is abundance everywhere but its not just handed out for nothing, you have to earn it. That seems to be the part that you resent. What exactly is it that you expect? Things were booming in the 60's but you still were expected to work to get your share. What period in history was that not true? 

 

You wrote:

Here is another example of how things are getting worse for the the average person. Back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I could get an airplane ticket to Las Vegas (from Wisconsin) for $99, plus a two night stay at a hotel was free, if you packaged it together. Now Las Vegas is struggling because the average person can no longer afford to go there. Buffets used to be all you can eat for $10. Now you pay over $10 for a single bagel. This is not "radical" abundance.

 

Lol and OMG! I used to go on those junkets once in a while. The perks were decent because they made their money on gambling. However, the hotel was never completely free. You could get a voucher if you gambled for x amount of hours. Those who didn't gamble enough did not get invited back. Now people are gambling less so they can't afford to do it anymore or not as much. You could figure that out yourself. It wasn't so cheap for those who lost a bundle gambling. It seems that you want business to give things away while trying to lure you into gambling away your money. Thats abundance?

 

You never say a word about stupid regulations or govt interfering with business and personal life. Thats where a large part of the problem is. Tell us how you think things should be, you always dodge that part. Should govt hand out checks to everyone, should business run at a loss to make things cheaper? You won't touch any of that but keep demanding 'where is my abundance'

 

Here is one of the questions you "forgot" to answer

"Explain why you think everyone should be rolling in abundance instead of demanding an answer why lazy people are poor."

[Mind]

 

 

Lol and OMG! I used to go on those junkets once in a while. The perks were decent because they made their money on gambling. However, the hotel was never completely free. You could get a voucher if you gambled for x amount of hours. Those who didn't gamble enough did not get invited back. Now people are gambling less so they can't afford to do it anymore or not as much. You could figure that out yourself. It wasn't so cheap for those who lost a bundle gambling. It seems that you want business to give things away while trying to lure you into gambling away your money.

 

No vouchers. I could (and anyone could) get a $99 ticket from Wisconsin to Las Vegas with a two night hotel room stay for free. I hardly gamble when I go there. I would gamble $20 in the morning. $20 at night. I also did once play in a round of Texas Hold'em with a $50 entry fee. Believe me, Vegas doesn't court a person like me.

 

This type of travel would be considered "abundant". Now we don't have that abundance. It is not coming back anytime soon. Please try to make an argument as to why air travel will become abundant for most people? When will we have $99 flights with free hotel stays again?

 

The same goes for housing, health care, insurance, automobiles, and even food. None of these are getting more abundant. The only reason I have high-quality food is that I work my butt off growing it all Summer.

 

Take a look at this factory video from 7 years ago. It was already almost completely automated. Most factories are already mostly automated. Adding robots will do nothing to impact the costs. Robots will only make the products more expensive because the owners of the factory have to pay to implement the robots and then they will want to recoup the cost of that investment.

 

Adding AI is making things more expensive as well. The accounting software that I use for my business is now twice as expensive as it was 5 years ago. Why? Inflation, but they also paid to have AI integrated into the software. The AI doesn't help me on any day to day tasks, but I am still paying for it.

 

Some of these AI-techno-optimist billionaires in silicon valley need to stop talking about "radical abundance" for all. What they are really talking about is abundance for themselves.

 

Almost nothing is getting more abundant other than crappy ultra-processed food, crappy social media/digital entertainment, and porn. Everything bad it in the world is getting more abundant.

[Mind]

If common people can no longer afford to own a car (many people used to own 2 or 3), that is NOT a sign of "radical abundance". If we had "radical abundance", cars would be getting cheaper, not more expensive.

[adamh]

"When will we have $99 flights with free hotel stays again?"

 

That was a special deal offered for a limited time by certain hotels. They obviously lose money on it but made it back on the gamblers. People like yourself who took advantage of it and didn't gamble any to speak of, got put on a "non invite" list. They aren't stupid, they don't mind if someone wins as long as they gamble a lot. Years ago there was a statistic that over half of the visitors to vegas won money. The reason the casino did well is because most people quit when they are a little bit up but if they are a little down, they keep playing to get even and many of them lose a bundle

 

Is this seriously your idea of abundance that you want to see? You dodged that question along with others

 

"The same goes for housing, health care, insurance, automobiles, and even food. None of these are getting more abundant."

 

Do you mean they aren't free? That is true but there is plenty to go around if you are willing to pay for it. Abundant usually means found in many places and available. In what way are these things no longer around? You will no doubt dodge that one too

 

"Most factories are already mostly automated. Adding robots will do nothing to impact the costs"

 

If a facility is totally automated, then they have enough robots. I question your statement that most are in this situation. My suggestion was to replace expensive humans with bots so naturally you argue against a different idea which was never said

 

"Almost nothing is getting more abundant other than crappy ultra-processed food, crappy social media/digital entertainment, and porn. Everything bad it in the world is getting more abundant."

 

Really, I see ads for loads of good things. You don't have to eat the ultra processed junk, I don't, there are alternatives. You claim there is not enough housing, food, etc to go around. I see grocery stores jammed with food, plenty of housing available, insurance companies will gladly take your money. What is in short supply and can you show that with more than just a statement?

 

" If we had "radical abundance", cars would be getting cheaper, not more expensive"

 

We already discussed how prices are actually lower in terms of buying power. 60 or 70 years ago you could buy a chevy for $2000 plus taxes, fees, etc. Today it might cost 20k, but what you consistently ignore is the fact that wages have gone up by 10x or more. There is no point in discussing economics if you don't understand this or choose to deny it

 

You seem to think inflation proves that goods are not available or something. I will ask one last time this question. If you choose to avoid it again, this conversation is done, bye

 

"Explain why you think everyone should be rolling in abundance instead of demanding an answer why lazy people are poor."