33 replies to this topic

[zaidon]

Hey everyone,

First time poster here, i've read a bit about nootropics in the past but have just decided recently to give them a serious shot, so have been doing a fair bit of research over the past few days. This seems like a pretty decent place for info

My main areas i want to work on are motivation and concentration. The list of supplements i was coming up with was fairly similar to the Cerebral multi pill (link here), so i've used that as a bit of a template.

This is what i've come up with for a twice a day stack:
L-tyrosine 1000mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine 1500mg
Ginkgo biloba 100mg
Bacopa monnieri 250mg
Piracetam 2500mg
DMAE bitartrate 200mg
Alpha GPC 500mg
Lecithin granules 1000mg
Vinpocetine 10mg
Deprenyl 1.25mg

The morning stack would also be complemented with:
OPC 100mg
B50 complex 1cap
Vitamin C

The second stack would be taken in the afternoon

Then before bed i'd take the following:
5-HTP 250mg
B50 complex 1cap
Magnesium 320mg
Vitamin C

Does this seem like a sensible combination?
Perhaps there's something i've left out that could be of use or i've overshot the mark with a few of the supps ... your comments are appreciated.

Cheers

[REGIMEN]

Hey everyone,

First time poster here, i've read a bit about nootropics in the past but have just decided recently to give them a serious shot, so have been doing a fair bit of research over the past few days. This seems like a pretty decent place for info

My main areas i want to work on are motivation and concentration. The list of supplements i was coming up with was fairly similar to the Cerebral multi pill (link here), so i've used that as a bit of a template.

This is what i've come up with for a twice a day stack:
L-tyrosine 1000mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine 1500mg
Ginkgo biloba 100mg
Bacopa monnieri 250mg
Piracetam 2500mg
DMAE bitartrate 200mg
Alpha GPC 500mg
Lecithin granules 1000mg
Vinpocetine 10mg
Deprenyl 1.25mg

The morning stack would also be complemented with:
OPC 100mg
B50 complex 1cap
Vitamin C

The second stack would be taken in the afternoon

Then before bed i'd take the following:
5-HTP 250mg
B50 complex 1cap
Magnesium 320mg
Vitamin C

Does this seem like a sensible combination?
Perhaps there's something i've left out that could be of use or i've overshot the mark with a few of the supps ... your comments are appreciated.

Cheers

Ginkgo and Vinpo? You haven't learned anything; at least not enough to safely embark upon ingesting numerous chemicals.

Go back and read more. Take negative and "unforeseeable" reactions seriously, also.

At least you didn't call it a regime... kudos.

Edited by REGIMEN, 08 September 2008 - 03:11 AM.

[Advanc3d]

i once took 30mg of Vinpocetine with 200mg Ginkgo 4 days in a row.

BIGGEST mistake of my life.

[bgwithadd]

Adderal, adderal, and adderal. Fialing that I'd ditch the gingko and bacopi they seem to do nothing. Ditch the lecithin, too, it's generally useless and likely counterproductive if you have a reaction.

Add in fish oil 6g a day. Add in SAM-e 400mg 2x a day. Switch the alcar to alcar+ala twice a day. Add in grape seed extract and pycnogenol once a day instead of the vincopectine, they are better and have no bad reactions. Lower your piracetem to about half that unless you have already gotten results at that dose. Might try selenium and phosywhateveritsnameis if you have the ADD, as well.

You will definitely notice something from that stack.

[hamishm00]

what kind of HTP are you taking?

As bgwithadd says, make sure you get your alpha lipoic acid in there, Super R-Lipoic like LEF's Super R, or standard ALA will be ok, just realise only half of it is RALA.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Lecithin, but you won't need it since you are taking Alpha GPC. Lower the piracetam dose a bit, as bgwithadd says. 2.5mg is almost an attack dose.

Ideally switch DMAE and Alpha GPC for Centrophenoxine.

[Advanc3d]

what kind of HTP are you taking?

As bgwithadd says, make sure you get your alpha lipoic acid in there, Super R-Lipoic like LEF's Super R, or standard ALA will be ok, just realise only half of it is RALA.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Lecithin, but you won't need it since you are taking Alpha GPC. Lower the piracetam dose a bit, as bgwithadd says. 2.5mg is almost an attack dose.

Ideally switch DMAE and Alpha GPC for Centrophenoxine.

theres actually nothing wrong with DMAE from what i researched and its a very potent choline source.. as long as methyl donors are present, since DMAE needs double methylation by the liver (hence why its a "slow" releasing choline source and why people favor it during bed time)

[desperate788]

Hey everyone,

First time poster here, i've read a bit about nootropics in the past but have just decided recently to give them a serious shot, so have been doing a fair bit of research over the past few days. This seems like a pretty decent place for info

My main areas i want to work on are motivation and concentration. The list of supplements i was coming up with was fairly similar to the Cerebral multi pill (link here), so i've used that as a bit of a template.

This is what i've come up with for a twice a day stack:
L-tyrosine 1000mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine 1500mg
Ginkgo biloba 100mg
Bacopa monnieri 250mg
Piracetam 2500mg
DMAE bitartrate 200mg
Alpha GPC 500mg
Lecithin granules 1000mg
Vinpocetine 10mg
Deprenyl 1.25mg

The morning stack would also be complemented with:
OPC 100mg
B50 complex 1cap
Vitamin C

The second stack would be taken in the afternoon

Then before bed i'd take the following:
5-HTP 250mg
B50 complex 1cap
Magnesium 320mg
Vitamin C

Does this seem like a sensible combination?
Perhaps there's something i've left out that could be of use or i've overshot the mark with a few of the supps ... your comments are appreciated.

Cheers

Ginkgo and Vinpo? You haven't learned anything; at least not enough to safely embark upon ingesting numerous chemicals.

Go back and read more. Take negative and "unforeseeable" reactions seriously, also.

At least you didn't call it a regime... kudos.

'ginkgo and vinpo' I take a similar combination, nicergoline and gotu cola, should I stop taking one of them? I use these for nearly 50 days, I didn't noticed anything negative.

[Wedrifid]

Ginkgo and Vinpo? You haven't learned anything; at least not enough to safely embark upon ingesting numerous chemicals.

Apparently AOR haven't learned anything either... wtf? Grab a bottle of Ortho Mind some day...

Not a bad combination at all desparate. Let us know how it works for you. I'll second these suggestions from bgwithadd:

Add in fish oil 6g a day. Add in SAM-e 400mg 2x a day. Switch the alcar to alcar+ala twice a day. Add in grape seed extract and pycnogenol once a day instead of the vincopectine, they are better and have no bad reactions. Lower your piracetem to about half that unless you have already gotten results at that dose. Might try selenium and phosywhateveritsnameis if you have the ADD, as well.

A huge ++ to Omega 3s. Omega 3s plus large doses of exercise are more important than the rest of the stack combined!

"Phosywhateveritsnameis" is phosphaditylserine. Definitely worth an addition. Well researched, in particular for enhancing concentration in ADDers over the longer term. It also facilitates recovery from both mental and physical stress. Not surprising really given that it is a key building block of cell membranes, including those of neurons!


I would keep the Bacopa. Anxiety and stress are the biggest concentration killers, herbs that reduce that tend to be helpful!

[REGIMEN]

Ginkgo and Vinpo? You haven't learned anything; at least not enough to safely embark upon ingesting numerous chemicals.

Apparently AOR haven't learned anything either... wtf? Grab a bottle of Ortho Mind some day...

Go ahead and let two vasodilators roll around in your brain; I personally wouldn't take any vasodilators when taking that many other supplements. I would avoid incurring a stroke at all costs. Or should I say...avoid stretching out the bloodworks in my physical brain that will eventually lead to an greatly increased risk of a brain trauma event.

Keep this in mind regardless of your opinion of mine:
"The nutrients in Ortho•Mind potentiate one another to create an “inverted ‘U’” response pattern. The optimal dosage is highly variable from one individual to the next. Begin with one capsule daily on an empty stomach, and increase to personal optimal level. For most people, peak results will be achieved at six capsules daily."
http://www.aviva.ca/...m...3&catid=193

And mygod, drop the 5-HTP. I tried that for a while and it did the opposite of everything it was meant to: made my sleep screwed up with nightmares and made the day an awful, confusing mess. You're going to find out sooner or later that applying one drug to fix one neurotranmitter is a major mistake. The brain and body are not that simple. The Braverman test is a joke since its foundation is this concept. Avoid it. It failed me and plenty of others if you would only take the time to find their posts from the last SEVEN years. Did you go back that far? Did you notice that the last two years these forums have been populated by newcomers? And not even very intelligent newcomers? Bawdy leet-speakers who can't even take the time to punctuate properly? Apparently the "noots" haven't kicked in for them yet so I advise against taking their experientially uninformed opinions. Go ahead and tell me, "sure it failed for you but I'm different and not an idiot like you." Go right ahead...

But really now, are you going to trust Wedrifid who joined this forum less than a week ago or are you going to believe someone who ran the gamut, had their ass handed to them, and finally got their shit straight by realizing how much of a "new untested science" this supplement game is? AOR may be great quality ingredients, but in use by lesser minds than those that produced a whole chemical product line in combination then with several other pharmaceuticals like Deprenyl and clinically employed neurotransmitter precursors piled on top...? Gigantic leap of faith based on internets gleaning...? If you don't cause problems you really are going to find that "expensive urine" trope to be true. From my experience even at its best it wasn't nearly as good as I thought it was because it was really just a very undependable hyperactive normalcy with no increase in ability, capacity, or intelligence (Aniracetam, Centrophenoxine, Galantamine, 0rth0core, Theanine, Bacopa: now *that* is a muh-fuh-in' stack!)

Pure junk.

=========================

Here's the original safe-line of advice:

Take it easy: you've gone this long in your life without supps so;
1) See an internist to dissolve any possibility that your "need for increased cognitive functioning" isn't stemming from an actual disease or condition. (If you read my post history you'll see I actually recommend seeing a TCM-doctor and ending the list right here.)
2) Read through the forum for at least 2 months before purchasing anything.
3) Add only one supplement or nootropic at a time and take it for at least a month to gauge your response in numerous daily stress configurations.
4) Buy only a one month supply at a time (no, a year supply is not cheaper when you have the creeping suspicion 3 months in that it may be caused by an item in your extensive stockpile.)
5) Ask questions. Find a doctor that deals with these supps and begin the relationship of a lifetime. Get blood, saliva, urine tests to have a full virgin profile to compare to down the line. If you're really serious about this and don't want to crash and burn or do irremediable damage you will consider these things necessary. Otherwise you're toying with your life.

There's a fine line between the Life-extension supplement usage and bluelight & erowid-style recreational drug use. They're both trying to "get something" which can be blinding of the dangers in these endeavors.


Well warranted rant over. (Instigated by: Replying moron.)


ps- Jesus, phosphaditylserine and attack-dosing were "out" back in 2006! Get it together, man!

[REGIMEN]

You should actually forget everything I've said and follow Wedrifid's Perfect Stack(best lines underlined by me to emphasize... something):

http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=261863

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and I'm currently not on any regimen. I was wondering, is there a regimen that is generally considered 'optimal' by this community? I see a lot of different regimens posted here and I was wondering, are there many different viewpoints and disagreements on what is the healthiest regimen, or is there more or less a general consensus?

• Don't touch carbohydrates unless they are in vegetables that grow above the ground.
• Live off steak, vegies and omega three capsules.
• Take Ortho Core and Ortho Mind. Increase the dosage of your top ten most prefered ingredients mentioned in the Ortho list by a factor of 5 to 10 as it pleases you, particularly the ones that sound like they are from an exotic plant. Those ones go well.
• Chew on Resveratol as if it were candy.
• Wash it all down with plenty of water.
• Swallow some melatonin before you sleep.
• Run (cardio train) 4 times a week
• Strength train thrice weekly.
• Meditate.
• Most important: guzzle Selegiline.

Edited by REGIMEN, 08 September 2008 - 04:13 PM.

[Wedrifid]

Fascinating. You managed to highlight the clear tongue in cheek indicators yet completely miss their implication. More racetams in your stack, perhaps? I hear the corpus callosum enhancement is a blessing when dealing with subtle nuances.

You should actually forget everything I've said and follow Wedrifid's Perfect Stack(best lines underlined by me to emphasize... something):

http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=261863

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and I'm currently not on any regimen. I was wondering, is there a regimen that is generally considered 'optimal' by this community? I see a lot of different regimens posted here and I was wondering, are there many different viewpoints and disagreements on what is the healthiest regimen, or is there more or less a general consensus?

• Don't touch carbohydrates unless they are in vegetables that grow above the ground.
• Live off steak, vegies and omega three capsules.
• Take Ortho Core and Ortho Mind. Increase the dosage of your top ten most prefered ingredients mentioned in the Ortho list by a factor of 5 to 10 as it pleases you, particularly the ones that sound like they are from an exotic plant. Those ones go well.
• Chew on Resveratol as if it were candy.
• Wash it all down with plenty of water.
• Swallow some melatonin before you sleep.
• Run (cardio train) 4 times a week
• Strength train thrice weekly.
• Meditate.
• Most important: guzzle Selegiline.

[Wedrifid]

Ginkgo and Vinpo? You haven't learned anything; at least not enough to safely embark upon ingesting numerous chemicals.

Apparently AOR haven't learned anything either... wtf? Grab a bottle of Ortho Mind some day...

...
But really now, are you going to trust Wedrifid who joined this forum less than a week ago or are you going to believe someone who ran the gamut, had their ass handed to them, and finally got their shit straight by realizing how much of a "new untested science" this supplement game is? AOR may be great quality ingredients, but in use by lesser minds than those that produced a whole chemical product line in combination then with several other pharmaceuticals like Deprenyl and clinically employed neurotransmitter precursors piled on top...? Gigantic leap of faith based on internets gleaning...? If you don't cause problems you really are going to find that "expensive urine" trope to be true. From my experience even at its best it wasn't nearly as good as I thought it was because it was really just a very undependable hyperactive normalcy with no increase in ability, capacity, or intelligence (Aniracetam, Centrophenoxine, Galantamine, 0rth0core, Theanine, Bacopa: now *that* is a muh-fuh-in' stack!)

Don't take my word for it. I'm new around here. I also do not recommend trusting Regimen in this instance. Not because I know him in the slightest. Simply because his advice here does not appear to be in accord with the practice of the most experienced and well researched individuals around here. Aggressive opinions and social politics are a warning sign to me that the advice given is low in information and high in status driven noise.

My strategy when navigating these boards is to seek out the most well researched leaders. Those that are clearly interested in making the best stack for themselves, not in proving themselves to anyone. In particular, I have found Zoolander's posts a goldmine of information. His selections are based off his extensive research and he takes the time to link to the research papers in question so I can verify for myself. I note that his extensive stack includes both Ortho Mind (Vinpo + Ginko) and deprenyl. I recommend reading through Cnorwood's regimen too, which includes Ortho Mind and Bacopa. His results, while obviously anecdotal, are encouraging.

Whatever choice you make for your stack, remember that you are here for you. You don't need to prove yourself to anyone here before you "earn your right" to join the "supplement users club". Do what is best for you, with the information you can find. That said, taking things slowly is never a bad idea. Having some bloodwork done can both give you a baseline to warn you if anything you add is causing an upset and show you some areas of health that are worth targeting. There is also a lot to be said for changing only one variable at a time!

Instigated by: Replying moron.

The insults are not necessary.

ps- Jesus, phosphaditylserine [was] "out" back in 2006! Get it together, man!

Is there something in particular about the research protocols involved with the studies on Phosphadityserine that you are uncomfortable with? The studies I have on file are all from before 2006. Have toxicity concerns emerged since then that would encourage me to reconsider my usage thereof? Or has it just lost popularity among the cool kids?

[Zoroaster]

I second Regimen's warning against overloading on vasodilators. They are some of the weakest nootropics and yet they carry some of the greatest risks. Ginko, in particular, is a garbage nootropic. Search recent research and you'll find that ginkgo is entirely ineffective in anyone but old, cognitively impaired individuals. And I wouldn't use Ortho-mind as a model of an efficacious or safe formula. The people who make these formulas know no more about supplements then many of our own board members. They're just slapping crap together. Pre-made nootropic pills are, more often than not, catch-all pills full of minute doses of every nootropic whose name could fit on the label. Most of them are overpriced, underpowered, and of questionable safety.

Anyway, like many others have mentioned, you should drop the lecethin if you're already going to be using alpha-gpc. You should also halve your piracetam dose, swap out DMEA for centro and most certainly add omega-3s. Also, you're probably not going to notice anything from the l-tyrosine. Oh and bacopa actually has some pretty solid research behind it. But it can make some people a little sleepy so you might want to add it to your night stack. And the memory enhancing effects are cumulative anyway so it doesn't really matter what time of day you take it.

And I can't stress enough how important it is to start taking these supplements one at a time. There's a fairly good probability that one or more of the items on your list will not agree with you. And you'll want to know what it is. The process will also help you get to know your body and how each ingredient of the stack seems to affect you (if at all). And that's valuable knowledge.

[Advanc3d]

for those people that advise halfing a dose on piracetam
i went on for a few months with so called 1000-4000mg piracetam per day and felt nothing..

over the lastweek i been taking 7 grams in the morning and 2 grams in the afternoon and i feel the best.


for anyone taking Dopamine precursors (tyrosine, levodopa), take EGCG extract (green tea) with it. green tea is a COMT inhibitor. plus, take Selegiline 2.5mg a day aswell..


i never felt anything from ginkgo other than "thump thump" feeling in my head, but its better than vinpo. although ginkgo it self doesnt really do much, having it as a addition to a nootopic stack is great. also bacopa is great also, i take 500-1000mg (20% extract) a day with positive results. i am a person that needs to take a large dose to feel nootopics.. (maybe because of my past mdma/speed abuse)


also there is nothing wrong with taking lecithin and alpha-gpc together. any mix of choline source is good. i take 1000mg Acetyl-l-carnitine + 1000mg tmg + 3000mg choline bitartate + 1500mg DMAE bitartrate a day.

Edited by Advanc3d, 09 September 2008 - 10:50 AM.

[hamishm00]

Not criticising, by why the choline bitartrate when it's bioavailability is probably pretty low as far as choline sources go? I know you have a nice dose going there so I'm sure it's all good.

[Advanc3d]

Not criticising, by why the choline bitartrate when it's bioavailability is probably pretty low as far as choline sources go? I know you have a nice dose going there so I'm sure it's all good.

well to keep a daily habit of alpha-gpc is god damn expensive considering i been using my choline bitartarte 500gram container since March this year and it still got a while to finish.

if i were to pay so much money for alpha=gpc, i rather go buy a better racetam

[bgwithadd]

The issue with lecithin is it's soy based, and many, many people are allergic. It's generally a crap source of virtually anything, but it's used because it's very cheap.

And I have to agree about REGIMINE - if he is such an expert he would not make such strong subjective statements. Most everything he has said is so great has done absolutely nothing for me, and 5htp works great for me (and virtually everyone else in the universe). Realize every supplement is going to have different reactions for everyone. Also, taken in the standard doses there is generally very little to fear - as if the gingko is a strong enough vasodillator to do anything serious. Some people do react to vinco and to soy products so there's no really great reason to bother with them, especially since any results you might get are probably going to be minimal and pygnogenol works much better.

Trying each supplement completely alone and judging its results as best you can would be best, but let's face it you only live so long. Also, if you are going to use deprenyl, may as well just get a prescription to adderal and/or stick on a nicotine patch.

[EmbraceUnity]

Can someone please provide evidence supporting the claim that vasodialators are dangerous? I have taken LEF's Cognitex for awhile, on and off, and never experienced any negative effects like some here have ambiguously hinted at.

I know that Shepherd and other respected members of ImmInst have personally recommended ginkgo + vinpocetine.

Finally, rather than causing strokes, the only information I can find on vinpocetine is its potential use in treating and preventing strokes!

[bgwithadd]

I don't think you will find any evidence anywhere that vasodilators are a bad thing unless in huge doses or by someone who has a serious medical condition.

vinpocetine has its own issues, though. Some people just have a bad reaction to it. Sort of like with kava - most people are fine, but some people don't tolerate it well. Since there are other things that have similar function and work better and are not dangerous at all, why bother?

[REGIMEN]

Fascinating. You managed to highlight the clear tongue in cheek indicators yet completely miss their implication. More racetams in your stack, perhaps? I hear the corpus callosum enhancement is a blessing when dealing with subtle nuances.

You should actually forget everything I've said and follow Wedrifid's Perfect Stack(best lines underlined by me to emphasize... something):

http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=261863

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and I'm currently not on any regimen. I was wondering, is there a regimen that is generally considered 'optimal' by this community? I see a lot of different regimens posted here and I was wondering, are there many different viewpoints and disagreements on what is the healthiest regimen, or is there more or less a general consensus?

• Don't touch carbohydrates unless they are in vegetables that grow above the ground.
• Live off steak, vegies and omega three capsules.
• Take Ortho Core and Ortho Mind. Increase the dosage of your top ten most prefered ingredients mentioned in the Ortho list by a factor of 5 to 10 as it pleases you, particularly the ones that sound like they are from an exotic plant. Those ones go well.
• Chew on Resveratol as if it were candy.
• Wash it all down with plenty of water.
• Swallow some melatonin before you sleep.
• Run (cardio train) 4 times a week
• Strength train thrice weekly.
• Meditate.
• Most important: guzzle Selegiline.

Your reply in that thread has no modifiers or preface or anything indicative of any kind of "implication" or "tongue in cheek" humor. You have unleashed a list of recommendations with so many mixed signals it is impossible to know if you're joking or serious. That's irresponsible and dangerous.

"Subtle implications" work when couched in supporting rhetoric... not an unmarked, no-return-address box of pyrite heaped in with gold which is missing its instruction manual of how to discern their difference.

And your "implicative" humor in this post is richly smug. I get it; you think my brain don't work right = "you're stupid"...

QUOTE
REGIMEN: Instigated by: Replying moron.
Wedrifed: The insults are not necessary.

So... I guess that makes you hypocrite. Not much of point to make but some revel in lashing their opponents with it. But on to the real shit. Next post please....

[Wedrifid]

Waiting on the papers supporting the dangers of of stroke induced by moderate use of vasodilators by healthy subjects. Even a news report would be good. Something along lines of "Geeks Too Smart for their Own Good: outbreak of deaths among performance enhancing nerds attributed to toxic cocktail traced back to elite supplement brand."

Edited by Wedrifid, 11 September 2008 - 02:19 AM.

[Wedrifid]

And your "implicative" humor in this post is richly smug.

I'm glad you appreciated it!

I get it; you think my brain don't work right = "you're stupid"...

That's fair. However I think you missed the essential point. That is, "The out of context quotations by Regimen do not in fact mean I am stupid. I'm actually smart. Regimen's incomprehension and inappropriate quotation does not suggest I am a moron, it in fact suggests nothing more than that Regimen does not like being disagreed with. Further, he is the dumb dumb face and not me so there."

Now, having established our credibility as mature *cough* and well informed advisers on mental health supplementation, back to the finer points of vasodilation...

PS: *cough* is an indication that I am using tongue in cheek humor to satirize my engagement with childish dramatics, which is not the mature response at all. Ignoring them is. 'Dumb dumb face' is not a real insult. It is hyperbole, again making light of the complete irrelevance of insults to vasodilation. Further, my explanations in a postscript are for Regimen's benefit and yes, do in fact include smug overtones of mockery. Perhaps I 'guzzled' too much selegiline? Does that contribute to a combination of aggression, irritability tempered with carefree lightheartedness?

[Wedrifid]

Wow. Your neurochem must be messed up! If that massive combo works for you then that is great I guess. Not concerned that you are doing more damage with the overstimulation? Could it perhaps not be necessary to 'feel' the nootropics and just rely on the subtler improvements that you would have to measure objectively to notice? I find that I get the best results when I can't 'feel' anything, yet just find at the end of the week I've got more done and in general enjoyed life more than I would have without the boost. Not that I don't consider living life constantly wired as a valid life choice if that's what you're after!

for those people that advise halfing a dose on piracetam
i went on for a few months with so called 1000-4000mg piracetam per day and felt nothing..

over the lastweek i been taking 7 grams in the morning and 2 grams in the afternoon and i feel the best.


for anyone taking Dopamine precursors (tyrosine, levodopa), take EGCG extract (green tea) with it. green tea is a COMT inhibitor. plus, take Selegiline 2.5mg a day aswell..


i never felt anything from ginkgo other than "thump thump" feeling in my head, but its better than vinpo. although ginkgo it self doesnt really do much, having it as a addition to a nootopic stack is great. also bacopa is great also, i take 500-1000mg (20% extract) a day with positive results. i am a person that needs to take a large dose to feel nootopics.. (maybe because of my past mdma/speed abuse)


also there is nothing wrong with taking lecithin and alpha-gpc together. any mix of choline source is good. i take 1000mg Acetyl-l-carnitine + 1000mg tmg + 3000mg choline bitartate + 1500mg DMAE bitartrate a day.

[REGIMEN]

Ginkgo and Vinpo? You haven't learned anything; at least not enough to safely embark upon ingesting numerous chemicals.

Apparently AOR haven't learned anything either... wtf? Grab a bottle of Ortho Mind some day...

...
But really now, are you going to trust Wedrifid who joined this forum less than a week ago or are you going to believe someone who ran the gamut, had their ass handed to them, and finally got their shit straight by realizing how much of a "new untested science" this supplement game is? AOR may be great quality ingredients, but in use by lesser minds than those that produced a whole chemical product line in combination then with several other pharmaceuticals like Deprenyl and clinically employed neurotransmitter precursors piled on top...? Gigantic leap of faith based on internets gleaning...? If you don't cause problems you really are going to find that "expensive urine" trope to be true. From my experience even at its best it wasn't nearly as good as I thought it was because it was really just a very undependable hyperactive normalcy with no increase in ability, capacity, or intelligence (Aniracetam, Centrophenoxine, Galantamine, 0rth0core, Theanine, Bacopa: now *that* is a muh-fuh-in' stack!)

Don't take my word for it. I'm new around here. I also do not recommend trusting Regimen in this instance. Not because I know him in the slightest. Simply because his advice here does not appear to be in accord with the practice of the most experienced and well researched individuals around here. Aggressive opinions and social politics are a warning sign to me that the advice given is low in information and high in status driven noise.

My strategy when navigating these boards is to seek out the most well researched leaders. Those that are clearly interested in making the best stack for themselves, not in proving themselves to anyone. In particular, I have found Zoolander's posts a goldmine of information. His selections are based off his extensive research and he takes the time to link to the research papers in question so I can verify for myself. I note that his extensive stack includes both Ortho Mind (Vinpo + Ginko) and deprenyl. I recommend reading through Cnorwood's regimen too, which includes Ortho Mind and Bacopa. His results, while obviously anecdotal, are encouraging.

Whatever choice you make for your stack, remember that you are here for you. You don't need to prove yourself to anyone here before you "earn your right" to join the "supplement users club". Do what is best for you, with the information you can find. That said, taking things slowly is never a bad idea. Having some bloodwork done can both give you a baseline to warn you if anything you add is causing an upset and show you some areas of health that are worth targeting. There is also a lot to be said for changing only one variable at a time!

Instigated by: Replying moron.

The insults are not necessary.

ps- Jesus, phosphaditylserine [was] "out" back in 2006! Get it together, man!

Is there something in particular about the research protocols involved with the studies on Phosphadityserine that you are uncomfortable with? The studies I have on file are all from before 2006. Have toxicity concerns emerged since then that would encourage me to reconsider my usage thereof? Or has it just lost popularity among the cool kids?

So standing on the shoulders of giants makes you a giant? Hardly. Have you any idea how much trouble has been caused by "well researched leaders" in this forum? I suggest you search out the debacles that surround two members on this forum named LifeMirage and nootropi (aka Adam Kamil). They gave out "recommendations" to anyone and everyone for more than a year each on which fresh-out-the-test supplements to take. I'm not putting zoolander or Dukenukem or any other respected member in that same boat. The strongest point I can make is that their success and sustained health from supplementation have come from ***years of personal experimentation and reconfiguration*** of their now famous stacks. They began with a fraction of what you're assuming to be an "universal human setpoint" for all of these chemicals each singly and all combined. Running before you yourself have crawled... but you say you've seen a video of someone running....uh...

Wedrifid:

"My strategy when navigating these boards is to seek out the most well researched leaders."

No way!? So did I! Soulmates 4EVR!

Face it, nearly no one on here is a doctor aside from perhaps scottl. Even then that's hardly enough to justify the use of so many supplements when starting, ever, or at all. All of the supporting researched studies are each of a single supplement used over relatively very short time periods. Most of them not even on humans. And now because you've discovered that there's a precedent of presumed safety in a very small and educated elite on this one forum you feel that you can stand on their shoulders and swing a full regimen like them first day out? This kind of thinking is supremely naive and dangerous to your health and anyone else's that may become indoctrinated by it. Especially when in the state of self/body-ignorance so many people come here looking for a quick fix for their failing cognitive functioning. These supplements can not and will not fix, remediate, re-align, nor adjust anything that is out of order. They are best for those healthy enough to not need them. As for zoolander, Dukenukem, and scottl...let's see...practicing scientist, wildly successful business owner and programmer, and practicing doctor... they were all well above the average in health and intelligence before they began taking these chemicals. It's probably best that you be this successful (or on track) in the world before you go downing handfuls of pills every day. So many people come here either saying absolutely nothing at all about their health or complaining that their doctor can't find anything wrong with them. Is this stuff really for them? Should anyone take this forum as the holy grail of intelligence enhancement?

Take your time. Learn about how your body feels under the influence of different chemicals one at a time. The grandest majority of people have no such sensitivity for noticing the changes in their own body before and during use of supplements. I also doubt someone that's been here for a little time as you have can make solid statements about what is safe about these supplements simply by appropriating the ideas of others.


Wedrifid:

"Those that are clearly interested in making the best stack for themselves, not in proving themselves to anyone."
"His results, while obviously anecdotal, are encouraging."

So I should quit "proving myself" and just give out encouraging anecdotes and research links....? Despite one's intention everyone on the face of the planet that communicates is "trying to prove themself". Baseless fluffy statement. I used to be interested in making the best stack for myself yet have discontinued this path. How does this change of course negate my extensive experience?


Wedrifid:

Aggressive opinions and social politics are a warning sign to me that the advice given is low in information and high in status driven noise.

I love how you conflate "aggressive opinions" with "attention whoring" and "informational bankruptcy". Explain your use of "social politics" and "status driven noise" if I didn't get it right.




===========================
Here's the original safe-line of advice:

Take it easy: you've gone this long in your life without supps so;
1) See an internist to dissolve any possibility that your "need for increased cognitive functioning" isn't stemming from an actual disease or condition. (If you read my post history you'll see I actually recommend seeing a TCM-doctor and ending the list right here.)
2) Read through the forum for at least 2 months before purchasing anything.
3) Add only one supplement or nootropic at a time and take it for at least a month to gauge your response in numerous daily stress configurations.
4) Buy only a one month supply at a time (no, a year supply is not cheaper when you have the creeping suspicion 3 months in that it may be caused by an item in your extensive stockpile.)
5) Ask questions. Find a doctor that deals with these supps and begin the relationship of a lifetime. Get blood, saliva, urine tests to have a full virgin profile to compare to down the line. If you're really serious about this and don't want to crash and burn or do irremediable damage you will consider these things necessary. Otherwise you're toying with your life.

[REGIMEN]

Waiting on the papers supporting the dangers of of stroke induced by moderate use of vasodilators by healthy subjects. Even a news report would be good. Something along lines of "Geeks Too Smart for their Own Good: outbreak of deaths among performance enhancing nerds attributed to toxic cocktail traced back to elite supplement brand."

Let's use common sense on this one. What is the clinical market for vasodilators? What is it that vasodilators do? Why take more than one? What exactly happens in the brain when someone has a stroke or aneuysm or embollism? Why is your first course of action taking supplements to fix a problem for which you have no understanding? Why would someone need to take vasodilators if they either do or do not live a sedentary lifestyle when they have no medical condition that requires it for remediation?

Edited by REGIMEN, 11 September 2008 - 03:17 AM.

[REGIMEN]

And your "implicative" humor in this post is richly smug.

I'm glad you appreciated it!

I get it; you think my brain don't work right = "you're stupid"...

That's fair. However I think you missed the essential point. That is, "The out of context quotations by Regimen do not in fact mean I am stupid. I'm actually smart. Regimen's incomprehension and inappropriate quotation does not suggest I am a moron, it in fact suggests nothing more than that Regimen does not like being disagreed with. Further, he is the dumb dumb face and not me so there."

Now, having established our credibility as mature *cough* and well informed advisers on mental health supplementation, back to the finer points of vasodilation...

PS: *cough* is an indication that I am using tongue in cheek humor to satirize my engagement with childish dramatics, which is not the mature response at all. Ignoring them is. 'Dumb dumb face' is not a real insult. It is hyperbole, again making light of the complete irrelevance of insults to vasodilation. Further, my explanations in a postscript are for Regimen's benefit and yes, do in fact include smug overtones of mockery. Perhaps I 'guzzled' too much selegiline? Does that contribute to a combination of aggression, irritability tempered with carefree lightheartedness?

This post is a retarded jumble with so many inadequately defined borders as to the nature of whom said what that it's indecipherable. Read it. It doesn't make sense.

Intentions of small groupings of words make sense but it reads like pigeon shit.

Edited by REGIMEN, 11 September 2008 - 02:57 AM.

[REGIMEN]

Wow. Your neurochem must be messed up! If that massive combo works for you then that is great I guess. Not concerned that you are doing more damage with the overstimulation? Could it perhaps not be necessary to 'feel' the nootropics and just rely on the subtler improvements that you would have to measure objectively to notice? I find that I get the best results when I can't 'feel' anything, yet just find at the end of the week I've got more done and in general enjoyed life more than I would have without the boost.

If you believe so much in the power of "well researched leaders" in this forum...why not send people to their threads to read and learn for themselves?

You don't add anything to the facts they presented and you're off on a sugar-loaded spew that speaks to itself.



=======================



Your whole post with your statement before their's...bad form.

Wow. Your neurochem must be messed up! If that massive combo works for you then that is great I guess. Not concerned that you are doing more damage with the overstimulation? Could it perhaps not be necessary to 'feel' the nootropics and just rely on the subtler improvements that you would have to measure objectively to notice? I find that I get the best results when I can't 'feel' anything, yet just find at the end of the week I've got more done and in general enjoyed life more than I would have without the boost. Not that I don't consider living life constantly wired as a valid life choice if that's what you're after!

for those people that advise halfing a dose on piracetam
i went on for a few months with so called 1000-4000mg piracetam per day and felt nothing..

over the lastweek i been taking 7 grams in the morning and 2 grams in the afternoon and i feel the best.


for anyone taking Dopamine precursors (tyrosine, levodopa), take EGCG extract (green tea) with it. green tea is a COMT inhibitor. plus, take Selegiline 2.5mg a day aswell..


i never felt anything from ginkgo other than "thump thump" feeling in my head, but its better than vinpo. although ginkgo it self doesnt really do much, having it as a addition to a nootopic stack is great. also bacopa is great also, i take 500-1000mg (20% extract) a day with positive results. i am a person that needs to take a large dose to feel nootopics.. (maybe because of my past mdma/speed abuse)


also there is nothing wrong with taking lecithin and alpha-gpc together. any mix of choline source is good. i take 1000mg Acetyl-l-carnitine + 1000mg tmg + 3000mg choline bitartate + 1500mg DMAE bitartrate a day.

Edited by REGIMEN, 11 September 2008 - 03:23 AM.

[Zoroaster]

Waiting on the papers supporting the dangers of of stroke induced by moderate use of vasodilators by healthy subjects. Even a news report would be good. Something along lines of "Geeks Too Smart for their Own Good: outbreak of deaths among performance enhancing nerds attributed to toxic cocktail traced back to elite supplement brand."

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2007/January08/Pages/Ginkgobilobaandstrokerisk.aspx

There's a news story. 7 people with strokes in the ginkgo group, and none in the placebo group. I have the full text article as well because I have access to the journal neurology through my med school but I couldn't figure out how to post it. The subjects were old but healthy. While it doesn't demonstrate a significant stroke risk for the young necessarily, it certainly can't help.

And that's not the only one. I looked 5 minutes and found three studies that indicated an increase in stroke risk when taking normal ginkgo doses, including the one above.

While researchers were at first interested in vinpocetine as a possible treatment for strokes, most of that excitement has since faded away. Most of the best designed studies have found no benefit. You'll also find that nearly every site that discusses vinpocetine with any kind of thoroughness notes that it is contraindicated in those who are taking prescription blood thinners (obviously) but also in those taking aspirin, vitamin E, garlic, and GINKGO. Likewise Ginkgo is contraindicated in those taking any kind of prescription, over the counter, or herbal blood thinners.

And its not just the risk of stroke that you have to be worried about with blood thinning herbs. Its the risk of excessive bleeding if you break a bone, the risk of cerebral hemorrhage if you get a knock in the head while playing sports, its the significantly increased risk of fainting, and its the reduced strength of your immune system. In fact vinpocetine has been undeniably linked to at least one case of agranulocytosis, which is a fairly serious condition that results in a significantly impaired immune system.

Is any of this that likely to happen to one of us? Not really. But the point is, with very little evidence demonstrating any kind of beneficial effect for either of these supps, and with side effects and risks that are, while not terrible, certainly worse than piracetam, choline, and the like, Its probably not worth it to take either of these supps alone, and its just stupid to take them together.



Speaking of stupid, neither you nor regimen is coming off very well in your little tiff. You guys should probably wrap it up so we can get back to the topic at hand, for everyone's benefit.

Edited by Zoroaster, 11 September 2008 - 09:02 AM.

[Wedrifid]

Thanks for the links Zoroaster. They are something to consider when taking either ginko or vinpo. However, they are not what is needed to support the conclusion that you draw. You need to find studies that suggest that 1 unit of ginko plus 1 unit of vinpo is worse than 2 units of either. You are concluding that the combination is the problem, not that the respective dosages merely have additive effects. Do you see the difference?

Waiting on the papers supporting the dangers of of stroke induced by moderate use of vasodilators by healthy subjects. Even a news report would be good. Something along lines of "Geeks Too Smart for their Own Good: outbreak of deaths among performance enhancing nerds attributed to toxic cocktail traced back to elite supplement brand."

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2007/January08/Pages/Ginkgobilobaandstrokerisk.aspx

There's a news story. 7 people with strokes in the ginkgo group, and none in the placebo group. I have the full text article as well because I have access to the journal neurology through my med school but I couldn't figure out how to post it. The subjects were old but healthy. While it doesn't demonstrate a significant stroke risk for the young necessarily, it certainly can't help.

And that's not the only one. I looked 5 minutes and found three studies that indicated an increase in stroke risk when taking normal ginkgo doses, including the one above.

While researchers were at first interested in vinpocetine as a possible treatment for strokes, most of that excitement has since faded away. Most of the best designed studies have found no benefit. You'll also find that nearly every site that discusses vinpocetine with any kind of thoroughness notes that it is contraindicated in those who are taking prescription blood thinners (obviously) but also in those taking aspirin, vitamin E, garlic, and GINKGO. Likewise Ginkgo is contraindicated in those taking any kind of prescription, over the counter, or herbal blood thinners.

And its not just the risk of stroke that you have to be worried about with blood thinning herbs. Its the risk of excessive bleeding if you break a bone, the risk of cerebral hemorrhage if you get a knock in the head while playing sports, its the significantly increased risk of fainting, and its the reduced strength of your immune system. In fact vinpocetine has been undeniably linked to at least one case of agranulocytosis, which is a fairly serious condition that results in a significantly impaired immune system.

Is any of this that likely to happen to one of us? Not really. But the point is, with very little evidence demonstrating any kind of beneficial effect for either of these supps, and with side effects and risks that are, while not terrible, certainly worse than piracetam, choline, and the like, Its probably not worth it to take either of these supps alone, and its just stupid to take them together.



Speaking of stupid, neither you nor regimen is coming off very well in your little tiff. You guys should probably wrap it up so we can get back to the topic at hand, for everyone's benefit.

co

[Zoroaster]

Thanks for the links Zoroaster. They are something to consider when taking either ginko or vinpo. However, they are not what is needed to support the conclusion that you draw. You need to find studies that suggest that 1 unit of ginko plus 1 unit of vinpo is worse than 2 units of either. You are concluding that the combination is the problem, not that the respective dosages merely have additive effects. Do you see the difference?

"Do I see the difference?" That's a simple concept wedrifid. I'm not a child. I was NOT concluding specifically that the combination was worse then the two individually. Only that neither is worth the risk separately so taking both of them (in other words taking two supplements that each carry more risk then they're worth) is a bad idea. Do YOU see the difference? I don't believe I ever implied that they had some kind of compounding effect on eachother. I'm sorry if you got that impression. You may be confusing my statements with regimens.

I did, however, point out that the use of either of these supps is always advised against when the subject is already taking any other kind of blood thinner, even on websites dedicated to each supp. So since each of these supps is a vasodialator and a blood thinner, each is officially contraindicated when taking the other. Why is this? Because blood thinners can have nasty side effects and they do carry risks, as I pointed out before. And taking two different blood thinners will only increase these risks, not necessarily in a exponential way but linearly, simple because you're now taking more blood thinner. So its a bad idea to take the two together simply because they have similar effects and taking both of them will increase the risks associated with these effects. Just like how taking a full dose of both aspirin and advil at the same time is a bad idea. Or just like how taking a full dose of alpha-GPC and a full dose of choline bitrate increases your chances of getting negative hypercholinergic symptoms. There doesn't have to be a synergistic effect for it to be a stupid idea.