33 replies to this topic

[Wedrifid]

A clear explaination Zoro. Thanks. It seems we are in agreement that caution is warranted when considering the use of vasodilators. While the risks are not enormous, the consequences are and the evidence suggests that it is the dosage of vasodilator rather than particular combination that should be considered with caution. Taking multiple vasodilators carries a potential problem in so much as it may indicate the overall vasodilator dosage is greater. It is tempting to make judgements based on the names alone, so I keep reminding myself that it is the names * numbers that I must watch.

As for the efficacy of the supps in question, it is clear that you don't consider either of them worth the risk. Is that because you do not believe the risk warrants the reward or do simply believe that they just aren't that helpful anyway. While the vasodilators aren't something I have looked into as extensively as other more promising substances my findings so far suggest that Vinpo at least tends to be associated with some impressive benefits as well as the risks. From what I understand, in some cases it can actually reduce the risk of complications, particularly when excessive constrictions on blood flow are in place. This is where actually knowing what is going on in your head starts to matter!

Thanks for the links Zoroaster. They are something to consider when taking either ginko or vinpo. However, they are not what is needed to support the conclusion that you draw. You need to find studies that suggest that 1 unit of ginko plus 1 unit of vinpo is worse than 2 units of either. You are concluding that the combination is the problem, not that the respective dosages merely have additive effects. Do you see the difference?

"Do I see the difference?" That's a simple concept wedrifid. I'm not a child. I was NOT concluding specifically that the combination was worse then the two individually. Only that neither is worth the risk separately so taking both of them (in other words taking two supplements that each carry more risk then they're worth) is a bad idea. Do YOU see the difference? I don't believe I ever implied that they had some kind of compounding effect on eachother. I'm sorry if you got that impression. You may be confusing my statements with regimens.

I did, however, point out that the use of either of these supps is always advised against when the subject is already taking any other kind of blood thinner, even on websites dedicated to each supp. So since each of these supps is a vasodialator and a blood thinner, each is officially contraindicated when taking the other. Why is this? Because blood thinners can have nasty side effects and they do carry risks, as I pointed out before. And taking two different blood thinners will only increase these risks, not necessarily in a exponential way but linearly, simple because you're now taking more blood thinner. So its a bad idea to take the two together simply because they have similar effects and taking both of them will increase the risks associated with these effects. Just like how taking a full dose of both aspirin and advil at the same time is a bad idea. Or just like how taking a full dose of alpha-GPC and a full dose of choline bitrate increases your chances of getting negative hypercholinergic symptoms. There doesn't have to be a synergistic effect for it to be a stupid idea.

[Zoroaster]

A clear explaination Zoro. Thanks. It seems we are in agreement that caution is warranted when considering the use of vasodilators. While the risks are not enormous, the consequences are and the evidence suggests that it is the dosage of vasodilator rather than particular combination that should be considered with caution. Taking multiple vasodilators carries a potential problem in so much as it may indicate the overall vasodilator dosage is greater. It is tempting to make judgements based on the names alone, so I keep reminding myself that it is the names * numbers that I must watch.

As for the efficacy of the supps in question, it is clear that you don't consider either of them worth the risk. Is that because you do not believe the risk warrants the reward or do simply believe that they just aren't that helpful anyway. While the vasodilators aren't something I have looked into as extensively as other more promising substances my findings so far suggest that Vinpo at least tends to be associated with some impressive benefits as well as the risks. From what I understand, in some cases it can actually reduce the risk of complications, particularly when excessive constrictions on blood flow are in place. This is where actually knowing what is going on in your head starts to matter!

I'm glad we're on the same page. I think ginkgo has been pretty well debunked as a nootropic for healthy subjects. So obviously if it incurs any risk at all its not worth it. Vinpocetine has a lot of great research on its benefits for people with compromised mental function or who are recovering from stroke or brain damage. I would definitely be taking a dose a day if I had just had a stroke. But back in the day when I was putting together my stack I searched and searched for vinpocetine studies that demonstrated benefit for healthy subjects and could only find two. One was in the late 70's one in the early 80's. And they both had less than 20 subjects. Now there may be some better studies out there, I'm not sure. If you know of any feel free to send them my way. But if a nootropic is going to carry any risks at all then I've got to be fairly certain its going to provide discernable benefit before I'm going to make it part of my daily regimin. Sure you can find people that claim it changed their life but honestly that means almost nothing to me. I know people who eat clay every day and claim it changed their life. Anyway, my issue is that Vinpocetine just doesn't seem to have much research behind it. And there are risks associated with it that will be small for most people but for certain people in certain situations they could be very large. Until we know more about its benefits I'm not going to spend money on it and I wouldn't advise other people to either.

[Wedrifid]

I'm glad we're on the same page. I think ginkgo has been pretty well debunked as a nootropic for healthy subjects. So obviously if it incurs any risk at all its not worth it. Vinpocetine has a lot of great research on its benefits for people with compromised mental function or who are recovering from stroke or brain damage. I would definitely be taking a dose a day if I had just had a stroke. But back in the day when I was putting together my stack I searched and searched for vinpocetine studies that demonstrated benefit for healthy subjects and could only find two. One was in the late 70's one in the early 80's. And they both had less than 20 subjects. Now there may be some better studies out there, I'm not sure. If you know of any feel free to send them my way. But if a nootropic is going to carry any risks at all then I've got to be fairly certain its going to provide discernable benefit before I'm going to make it part of my daily regimin. Sure you can find people that claim it changed their life but honestly that means almost nothing to me. I know people who eat clay every day and claim it changed their life. Anyway, my issue is that Vinpocetine just doesn't seem to have much research behind it. And there are risks associated with it that will be small for most people but for certain people in certain situations they could be very large. Until we know more about its benefits I'm not going to spend money on it and I wouldn't advise other people to either.

It does seem that Vinpo has little backing. I guess I shouldn't be too concerned that Ortho Mind is recommended for an empty stomach, thus giving ~6% absorbtion of the Vinpo content!

[Mixter]

Personally, I'd start with as low as 400mg and work up to more than 2g of Piracetam, and see which dose yields the most benefit.

Stack looks good, but only in combination with high dose multivitamin and EPA/DHA rich omegas, hope you're taking these