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President Bush: "It's unacceptable to think"


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#31 jaydfox

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:28 AM

They could have made their point just as easily by dropping a bomb on an uninhabitable or military-only target as a proof of concept. The use of nuclear weapons against a civilian population was a war crime that the United States has yet to be held accountable for. More than 200,000 people, mostly civilians, perished on account of the two nuclear bombs that exploded in the cities of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I'm not proud of what America did when we dropped the bomb. The typical justification given is that it saved more lives than it took, since an invasion of Japan to end the war would have cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of Japanese and at least tens if not hundreds of thousands of American lives.

A military and/or industrial target, with minimal civilian casualties, but within viewing distance of heavily populated areas, could have achieved much the same effect. If I had to pick one disgraceful event in America's history, it would be the atomic bombing of civilian targets.

However, if I had to pick one disgraceful administration in America's history, the current one wins hands down. One event is much easier to try to justify than a systematic erosion of rights and integrity, the primary object of which is to increase the power of the executive branch, the secondary object of which is to gain a minimal advantage over an enemy.

#32 RighteousReason

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:33 AM

They could have made their point just as easily by dropping a bomb on an uninhabitable or military-only target as a proof of concept.

That's very obviously false. The first one didn't stop them at all.

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:35 AM

There is yet another disgraceful administration, the one that chose to ignore the pleadings for help from the Jews who were being slaughtered in their millions.

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#34

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:38 AM

That's very obviously false. The first one didn't stop them at all.

Obviously? How so? How on earth would you be able to make such an authoritative claim? Were you privy to their council meetings?

#35 RighteousReason

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:39 AM

Speaking of which, do we all recognize the clear intentions of Mahmoud I'mamadjihad?

No, no, no!

When he said he wants to "wipe Israel off the map", what he *really* meant was that Israel's military aggressiveness should be wiped off the map. And when he said Jews are evil, what he *really* means what that militaristic Zionism is evil. And when he said each and every Jew in the entire world should be rounded up and taken to concentration camps to be killed, what he *really* meant was that he wants to kill the spirit of hatred that resides in the hearts of Israel's policymakters!

Don't read him out of context!



#36 jaydfox

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:49 AM

There is yet another disgraceful administration, the one that chose to ignore the pleadings for help from the Jews who were being slaughtered in their millions.

I wasn't aware that the FDR's administration knew of the slaughter of millions of Jews before we went to war. In fact, I wasn't aware that the scope of the slaughter of the Jews was known during the first two and a half years of the war.

And I didn't say the current administration was the only one with disgraces to be ashamed of. I just said I think it's the most disgraceful.

#37 marcus

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:41 PM

Prometheus,

It is fairly well documented that consideration was given to dropping the bomb on an uninhabited test site to demonstrate the awsome destructive potential to scare the Japanese into surrender, but this plan wasn't pursued for a couple of reasons. The main reason being that scientist's at the time weren't sure that the bomb would work. Although the US had a successful test in detonating a nuclear device on a tower in the desert, there was no assurance that the bomb they had designed would work with the added complexity of dropping the bomb from an airplane. What sort of effect would a dud test have caused on Japanese resolve? At the time, the US also didn't possess a large enough stock-pile of enriched uranium or plutonium for more than the 2 bombs we did drop. A second demonstration/test explosion would have left the US with only 1 potential bomb to use as a weapon. It wasn't until late '46 that the US was able to produce another atomic weaon. We did give the Japanese a warning of "ultimate destruction" and even after the first bomb fell on Hiroshima the Japanese still did not surrender right away. Looking at the tremendous Japanese resolve in WW II, I'm not sure what if any effect even a successful test drop would have had. Sadly, I think the only option at the time was to use the weapon. This is a great site that has aggregated much of the historical information as it relates to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

http://www.dannen.co...sion/index.html

I haven't done any research on the topic, but I do remember reading that the allies were aware of the slaughter of the Jews as early as 1943, but at a time when the outcome of the war was still uncertain the allied leadership didn't make it as big of a priority as they should have in hind-sight.

Marcus

#38 eternaltraveler

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:59 PM

war sucks, for civilians especially. Guess Japan shouldn't have attacked the US.

It was very unfortunate that we were forced to nuke Japan. As Marcus pointed out we only had two bombs. We couldn't afford to waste them on remote uninhabited locations. The war could have dragged on for a lot longer. If you are going to fight a war and have to worry about PR at every turn you are going to loose. My grandfather was in Okinawa getting ready for the invasion of Japan proper. If that happened I probably wouldn't be here because he would have died then. It would have made D day look like a walk in the park.

There is yet another disgraceful administration, the one that chose to ignore the pleadings for help from the Jews who were being slaughtered in their millions.


criticize us for being world police, criticize us for not being world police. Jeeze :))


Oh, and as for what started this thread. Gimmie a break. Why don't we just take individual words out of Bush's sentences and string them together however we want. I'm no Bush fan, but this is pure grasping at straws.

#39 Brainbox

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 09:51 PM

That is, conservatives might be against evolution in theory (some of them), but they certainly understand the principle of natural selection.

Weakness = death.

Maybe a bit off-topic, but

organised religion = orchestrated natural selection = death for humanity on the long run.
Honor is a very subjective concept.


Regarding dropping THE bomb, you can legitimately argue about the level of ethical assessment that has been carried out before deciding to go on with it at that time. Probably this kind of decision would not have been made in the current political arena. But why would it not? It's very plausible that using the thing once or twice scared the hell out of politicians that that's actually the reason we became a lot more thoughtful. We learn by acting...

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 03:22 AM

We did give the Japanese a warning of "ultimate destruction" and even after the first bomb fell on Hiroshima the Japanese still did not surrender right away.

Perhaps they were still in shock.. unaware of the full extent of destruction.. The act was monstrous - defies any sort of justification. Astonishing how civilized human beings can so calmly rationalize the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.

I haven't done any research on the topic, but I do remember reading that the allies were aware of the slaughter of the Jews as early as 1943, but at a time when the outcome of the war was still uncertain the allied leadership didn't make it as big of a priority as they should have in hind-sight.

Of course they were aware! By it's blatant nonintervention and silence towards atrocities that were committed against the Jews at that time the US and Britain could almost be seen to be condoning these actions.

Guess Japan shouldn't have attacked the US

Really? Are you referring to the attack on Pearl Harbor? There were 70 civilian casualties only. Extraordinary, considering this was before the advent of so-called surgical strikes. In case you missed it, there were 200,000 - repeat two hundred thousand civilans - annihilated during the nuclear attack on Japan.

#41 eternaltraveler

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 03:58 AM

Really? Are you referring to the attack on Pearl Harbor? There were 70 civilian casualties only. Extraordinary, considering this was before the advent of so-called surgical strikes. In case you missed it, there were 200,000 - repeat two hundred thousand civilans - annihilated during the nuclear attack on Japan.


If you'd like to repeat yourself over and over again by all means do so. The fact is 37 million civilians lost their lives in WWII, which happens to be 185 times 200,000. The majority of deaths in WWII were civilians, and the vast majority of those civilian deaths were from allied nations. Noncombatant deaths in Asia alone before the bombing were occurring at a rate of 200,000 a month. Would the war have stretched on a month longer without such drastic action? Undoubtedly. How many multiples of that do you think would have died in the invasion of Japan? War sucks.

The best form of defense is not to engage in battle, but once battle begins you must take the shortest path to victory.

#42 jaydfox

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 04:17 AM

I haven't done any research on the topic, but I do remember reading that the allies were aware of the slaughter of the Jews as early as 1943, but at a time when the outcome of the war was still uncertain the allied leadership didn't make it as big of a priority as they should have in hind-sight.

Of course they were aware! By it's blatant nonintervention and silence towards atrocities that were committed against the Jews at that time the US and Britain could almost be seen to be condoning these actions.

I'm sorry, but if the U.S. was already involved in the war by 1943, and we were preparing for invasion in 1944, then how did we stand by? Non-intervention ceased the moment Germany declared war on the U.S., via their pact with Japan.

I'm not a WWII history buff, so I don't know all the particulars of our involvement in the European theater prior to D-Day, but I wasn't under the impression that we were ignoring the European theater altogether. And we were rather preoccupied with the Pacific theater.

War is war. It's not like we were ignoring the plight of the Jews because we didn't try "harder" to win a war we were already engaged in.

#43 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 04:49 AM

As a point of reference Jay the Allies were fully aware of the Warsaw Uprising and were asked repeatedly to simply airdrop supplies to the rebels to use to defend themselves during the two months they fought the Nazis. These pleas were ignored. It certainly would not have required a deviation from the war plan and in fact would have helped it.

http://en.wikipedia....Warsaw_Uprising

http://www.warsawuprising.com/

In addition the allies overflew the death camps and took extensive reconnaissance photos that showed them. The inmates were after all being used as slave labor to promote the German war effort. Requests to actually bomb the areas around the camps to allow the inmates to attempt escape also were ignored.

Again this was a tactic that would have helped the war effort.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Auschwitz...sn't_bombed

http://www.guardian....1125102,00.html

http://www.holocaust...rg/see-no-evil/

http://www.globalsec...eye/monitor.htm

#44 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 05:06 AM

(Jay)
I wasn't aware that the FDR's administration knew of the slaughter of millions of Jews before we went to war. In fact, I wasn't aware that the scope of the slaughter of the Jews was known during the first two and a half years of the war.


Also the use of Jewish prisoners as slave labor and their mass murders during arrests were well known but the actual systematic * industrialized* holocaust doesn't move into high gear until after the war gets going. We all knew that Jews and others were being rounded up throughout German occupied territories and then transferred to the concentration camps.

Hence the Holocaust as we have come to know it didn't occur until after the war began in earnest but the mass arrests and deportations, as well as forced labor and mass murders were certainly well documented prior to the US entry into the war in 1941.

Timeline of the Holocaust

http://www.ushmm.org...duleId=10005143

Background

http://www.kn.pacbel...holocausmr.html

#45 marcus

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 05:33 AM

Prometheus,

Did you take the time to check out the link I posted earlier or go to the national archive site and look at some of the documented evidence about what went into the decision making process to drop the bomb? You can read the minutes of high level meetings where target criteria and alternatives such as demonstrating the weapon were discussed. It's particuarly enlightening to read the view-points of Fermi, Oppenheimer, and other scientists regarding the bombs use. Check out Truman's diary for his thoughts as ultimately the decison was his and it sheds a lot of light on what his thinking was at the time. You also have to consider the alternative of what a conventional invasion of mainland Japan would have looked like. The low-end of estimates were for 1 million allied casualties and 10-15 million more Japanese. These statistics are based on losses incurred in some of the bloodiest battles of the war at Iwo Jima, Okinawa, the Phillipines ect. Most histortians feel the battle for Japan would have been far worse then those estimates when you consider the preperations the Japanese were making to ensure that the battle would be as bloody and costly as possible for the allies. Kamikaze air-craft was only the beginning of the planned suicide attacks.

It would have been so much better if a demonstration would have done the trick in forcing the Japanese to surrender. But looking at the incredible fight to the last man resolve the Japanese possesed, the fact that surrender meant dishonor and that was unthinkable to the Japanese, the fact there were only 2 bombs we weren't entirely sure would work, and considering we were in a wartime environment where countless millions had already died I can understand how the decision was reached to go ahead and drop the bomb on a target for maximum psychological impact to bring the war to an end. We'll never know if a test would have been sufficient to bring the Japanese to terms, but most historians believe it would not have and the war most likely would have been prolonged. I'm not sure what I would have done in that situation and it's a terrible decision to have to make. It is horrible beyond belief that 200,000 people died because of that decision and it should be debated, but I don't think it is beyond ANY justification that the US decided the way it did.

I'm also not sure how you can call it blatant non-intervention by the allies on behalf of the Jews. It was the US and Britain that ultimately liberated the camps and exposed the atrocities. This may not have been until early 1945, but the Germans had the camps in protected inland locations that they moved closer and closer to the heart of Germany as the allies advanced. What has been argued is that there should have been more of an emphasis put on freeing the Jews at all costs considering what was happening, but you have to rememeber that the outcome of the war was not certain and all deference was given toward making sure we defeated our enemies so that we could ultimately free ALL the Jews and the rest of the Europeans oppressed under Nazi rule. In hindsight, I agree there should have been a risky airborne type of resuce mission to free the camps sooner rather than later. But I can appreciate that the allied leadership didn't exactly have the best intelligence on the total scope of the situation and any sort of rescue mission would have been extremely dangerous.

Marcus

#46

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 06:00 AM

The best form of defense is not to engage in battle, but once battle begins you must take the shortest path to victory.

There is never victory through conflict unless one is able to extinguish the enemy and all they stand for. Otherwise, in time whatever survives from the enemy - whether it is the physical or ideological progeny of the vanquished - will revisit in one form or another. Then it is not victory but a respite from a never ceasing struggle. True victory means never having to wage war - once battle begins all paths lead to doom.

Would the war have stretched on a month longer without such drastic action? Undoubtedly.

Impossible to know and unwise to assume. It was incumbent upon those able to wield such weapons of unprecedented mass destruction that they should think of the best way to use them in accordance to their self-proclaimed ethical standards.

I'm sorry, but if the U.S. was already involved in the war by 1943, and we were preparing for invasion in 1944, then how did we stand by?

The US was always cognizant of the atrocities but they wanted nothing to do with the situation. Recall in 1939 that Roosevelt ignored the pleadings from the SS St Louis when it arrived at Miami and was filled with almost 1000 Jews feeing from the Nazis? All these poor people had to go back into hell when they were only a few hundred metres from the Florida coast. Despicable.

#47 eternaltraveler

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 06:12 AM

uh huh

#48

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 06:13 AM

uh huh

Stunning, profound.

In hindsight, I agree there should have been a risky airborne type of resuce mission to free the camps sooner rather than later. But I can appreciate that the allied leadership didn't exactly have the best intelligence on the total scope of the situation and any sort of rescue mission would have been extremely dangerous.

That is the scenario we say to our children lest they realize too soon how unkind human beings can be towards each other. The reality is that they did not care, or if they did, it was not worth the effort. This attitude has not changed. The US shows time and time again that it is interested only in defending the rights and freedoms of the wealthy even if they are muslim (think Kuwait). Nothing wrong with choosing who they want to help, of course, provided they don't act all sanctimonious about it.

#49 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 06:20 AM

It is often said in such discussion that hindsight is always 20/20.

Marcus the idea of landing paratroopers to liberate the camps was not a reasonable tactic and no serious historians or strategists of the time would have considered it. However the tactic that was suggested and could have had profound effect was to have actually bombed the camps themselves thus stopping much of the systematic mass killing.

This was fully expected as it would have simply destroyed the crematoria and also created chaos that would have allowed a prisoner uprising and taken more troops away from the front. Many of the prisoners fully expected such an attack and desired it. They could not understand why it never happened since allied aircraft overflew the camps relatively routinely and bombers delivered loads all around them.

Also this is not the situation in the Warsaw uprising that would have given the Jews there a fighting chance and also forced even more Nazi troops away from the front. Helping the Jews of Warsaw could have contributed seriously to the Allied efforts and the Soviets could have relatively easily delivered aid supplied by us. However they were interested in returning to occupy Poland not help liberate it. The politics of the time were nothing if not complicated.

Now as to the use of the Atom Bomb I think it is important to remember the extent of the ignorance about its effects at the time. Some suspected the dangers and were aware of the impacts of fallout and potential shock wave but few really appreciated the destructive power before the use of the weapon.

In other words I somewhat agree with the arguments you are making for strategic reasons as well as for simpler ones, the US was not even sure the subsequent bombs would work, let alone the extent of destruction they would cause. This is not an excuse they clearly intended massive destruction but it stretched the credulity of the times.

However it should also be remembered that the systematic bombing of civilian targets was actually begun by the Allies and intended as a "terror tactic" to quote the terminology of the period.

It is true that the Germans bombed a civilian target in England first but the tacticians of the time knew it was both an accident and an example of that wonderful military term, collateral damage. The response however was quite intentional and culminates in the fire bombings of Dresden and Kobe. The fire bombing of Tokyo caused more civilian deaths than the more spectacular nuclear bombings.

Dresden and Kobe were not even remotely military targets and it was well understood what would happen when the US fire bombed Tokyo, it just didn't leave radioactive ash in its aftermath or provide the instantaneous shock factor.

http://en.wikipedia....kyo_firebombing

http://en.wikipedia....in_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia....in_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Firebombing

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 06:32 AM

Did you take the time to check out the link I posted earlier or go to the national archive site and look at some of the documented evidence about what went into the decision making process to drop the bomb?

Yes, thanks for the link. I found the following memorandum by Bard most disturbing:

Ever since I have been in touch with this program I have had a feeling that before the bomb is actually used against Japan that Japan should have some preliminary warning for say two or three days in advance of use. The position of the United States as a great humanitarian nation and the fair play attitude of our people generally is responsible in the main for this feeling.

During recent weeks I have also had the feeling very definitely that the Japanese government may be searching for some opportunity which they could use as a medium of surrender. Following the three-power conference emissaries from this country could contact representatives from Japan somewhere on the China Coast and make representations with regard to Russia's position and at the same time give them some information regarding the proposed use of atomic power, together with whatever assurances the President might care to make with regard to the Emperor of Japan and the treatment of the Japanese nation following unconditional surrender. It seems quite possible to me that this presents the opportunity which the Japanese are looking for.

I don't see that we have anything in particular to lose in following such a program. The stakes are so tremendous that it is my opinion very real consideration should be given to some plan of this kind. I do not believe under present circumstances existing that there is anyone in this country whose evaluation of the chances of the success of such a program is worth a great deal. The only way to find out is to try it out.



#51

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 06:41 AM

However it should also be remembered that the systematic bombing of civilian targets was actually begun by the Allies and intended as a "terror tactic" to quote the terminology of the period.

Sort of like what is these days referred to as the strategy of "Shock and Awe" because the rubric of "Terror" is occupied.

#52 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 06:42 AM

BTW the Japanese had sued for peace in the months before the use of the Atom Bomb.

Most people are unaware of the fact that these requests to surrender were rejected by the Allies as we would accept nothing but unconditional surrender.

#53 eternaltraveler

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 07:49 AM

BTW the Japanese had sued for peace in the months before the use of the Atom Bomb.

Most people are unaware of the fact that these requests to surrender were rejected by the Allies as we would accept nothing but unconditional surrender.


Elements of the Japanese government were seeking terms of settlement if that's what you mean. Japan was hoping for settlements like they had earlier with Russia where they would retain as much of their conquered territory as possible (not at all a good deal for the people in that territory, as well as potentially leaving Japan as a future threat). In order to get the best settlement the Japanese policy was to inflict as much damage on the allies as possible, and make defeating them as costly as possible. Modern estimates put invasion of Japan at costing at least a million allied lives (as well as all the Japanese lives it would cost). Estimates at the time were much lower, but still very high.

Even after the bombing of Nagasaki there was almost a military coup to overthrow the emperor so they could keep fighting.

the potsdam declaration was the surrender document given by the allies to Japan on July 26th which was ignored. http://en.wikipedia....dam_Declaration

#54 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 01:24 PM

The Potsdam Declaration insisted on unconditional surrender and actually can be understood in part at least as a response to secret entreaties by Japanese through the Soviets for a *conditional* surrender in which they would retain various advantages of their war effort, territory, some military, keeping the Emporer etc.

I am not suggesting that was not a reasonable strategy for the times and conditions, or that a prolonged war of constriction or a direct invasion would not have cost many more civilian lives. I was not second guessing the use of the bomb directly I was addressing one of the common fallacies of the premise.

A May 5 cable, intercepted and decoded by the US, dispelled any possible doubt that the Japanese were eager to sue for peace. Sent to Berlin by the German ambassador in Tokyo, after he talked to a ranking Japanese naval officer, it read:

Since the situation is clearly recognized to be hopeless, large sections of the Japanese armed forces would not regard with disfavor an American request for capitulation even if the terms were hard.{7}

     As far as is known, Washington did nothing to pursue this opening. Later that month, Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson almost capriciously dismissed three separate high-level recommendations from within the Truman administration (Roosevelt had just died) to activate peace negotiations. The proposals advocated signaling Japan that the US was willing to consider the all-important retention of the emperor system; i.e., the US would not insist upon "unconditional surrender".{8}

     Stimson, like other high US officials, did not really care in principle whether or not the emperor was retained. The term "unconditional surrender" was always a propaganda measure; wars are always ended with some kind of conditions. To some extent the insistence was a domestic consideration -- not wanting to appear to "appease" the Japanese. More important, however, it reflected a desire that the Japanese not surrender before the bomb could be used. One of the few people who had been aware of the Manhattan Project from the beginning, Stimson had come to think of it as his bomb --"my secret", as he called it in his diary.{9} On June 6, he told President Truman he was "fearful" that before the A-bombs were ready to be delivered, the Air Force would have Japan so "bombed out" that the new weapon "would not
have a fair background to show its strength".{10} In his later memoirs, Stimson admitted that "no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb".{11}


Meeting at Potsdam

And to be successful, that effort could have been minimal. In July, before the leaders of the US, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union met at Potsdam, the Japanese government sent several radio messages to its ambassador, Naotake Sato, in Moscow, asking him to request Soviet help in mediating a peace settlement. "His Majesty is extremely anxious to terminate the war as soon as possible", said one communication. "Should, however, the United States and Great Britain insist on unconditional surrender, Japan would be forced to fight to the bitter end."{12}

     On July 25, while the Potsdam meeting was taking place, Japan instructed Sato to keep meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Molotov to impress the Russians "with the sincerity of our desire to end the war [and] have them understand that we are trying to end hostilities by asking for very reasonable terms in order to secure and maintain our national existence and honor" (a reference to retention of Emperor Hirohito).{13}

     Having broken the Japanese code years earlier, Washington did not have to wait to be informed by the Soviets of these peace overtures; it knew immediately, and did nothing. Indeed, the National Archives in Washington contains US government documents reporting similarly ill-fated Japanese peace overtures as far back as 1943.{14}

     Thus, it was with full knowledge that Japan was frantically trying to end the war, that President Truman and his hardline Secretary of State, James Byrnes, included the term "unconditional surrender" in the July 26 Potsdam Declaration. This "final warning" and expression of surrender terms to Japan was in any case a charade. The day before it was issued, Harry Truman had approved the order to release a 15 kiloton atomic bomb over the city of Hiroshima.{15}


BTW another factor was the introduction of the Soviets into the Pacific Theater. They only declared war on Japan after the Potsdam Declaration and until that happened the Japanese had actually been hoping they would help them obtain a more favorable surrender. Their motives of the Soviets were in part territorial and certainly they were *strategic* for the post war period. Some argue that a part of the reason that the division of Europe went ahead without significant resistance by the Allies in the beginning was the agreement that Russia would enter the war in the east but not pursue significant territory (Yalta) even though they desperately wanted to and did in fact seize and hold a northern Japanese island until the end of the Cold War.

There are some that also suggest that the A-bomb was also used to accelerate Japan's surrender so as to prevent the Soviets from seizing more territory in Japan and forcing a division of rule there like what happened in Germany. As I said earlier, the politics of the period were nothing if not complicated.

IOW's the use of the bomb on Japan WAS intended as a demonstration of its power but that demonstration was not intended only for the Japanese but also for the Soviets that the Western Allies were growing intensely fearful of.

#55 eternaltraveler

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 01:35 PM

Marcus the idea of landing paratroopers to liberate the camps was not a reasonable tactic and no serious historians or strategists of the time would have considered it. However the tactic that was suggested and could have had profound effect was to have actually bombed the camps themselves thus stopping much of the systematic mass killing.

This was fully expected as it would have simply destroyed the crematoria and also created chaos that would have allowed a prisoner uprising and taken more troops away from the front. Many of the prisoners fully expected such an attack and desired it. They could not understand why it never happened since allied aircraft overflew the camps relatively routinely and bombers delivered loads all around them.

Also this is not the situation in the Warsaw uprising that would have given the Jews there a fighting chance and also forced even more Nazi troops away from the front. Helping the Jews of Warsaw could have contributed seriously to the Allied efforts and the Soviets could have relatively easily delivered aid supplied by us. However they were interested in returning to occupy Poland not help liberate it. The politics of the time were nothing if not complicated.



Hindsight is indeed 20/20. It boggles my mind that the Allies didn't do the very things you suggest.

On the other side of the coin some of the actions of the Axis (or lack of action) boggle my mind as well. Attacking Russia at that point was plain strategic nonsense forcing them to fight a war on two fronts which cost them the war.

But even after the invasion of soviet territory they could have potentially won. The Ukrainians were very unhappy with the Soviets (as were many Russians), if the Nazis when they initially advanced through the Ukraine to Russia, recruited Ukrainians to fight along side of them the situation may have been a very different one. This wouldn't have been out of line with the Nazi strategy, the last division of Nazis fighting was composed of Frenchmen. But they considered the Slavic people to be sub human.

Good for the rest of the Allies I guess, as Russia bore by far the brunt of the Nazi force.

#56 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 02:31 PM

BTW to get back on topic I suggest we follow closely the process of negotiations today with Musharraf of Pakistan.

The growing crisis developing with them is one that demonstrates how inept this administration has been at recognizing the importance of true diplomacy and also how the warnings that Bush was alienating our *allies* in a dangerous manner went ignored and now is a cause for real concern.

If you don't know what I am referring to I suggest reading the news. Pakistan has declared an independent truce with the Taliban, Bush is threatening unilateral action possibly invading or bombing Pakistan and Musharraf has responded by warning this would not be tolerated.

It should be remembered that Pakistan more than US intelligence is responsible for most of the real victories against al Qaeda. It was Pakistani intelligence that captured the top al Qaeda prisoners we have and also obtained the intelligence that warned us in advance of recent threatened attacks.

This hubris and bravado is causing a rift between Musharraf and the military that is being exploited by the Islamist opposition in that country. By putting Musharraf publicly between a rock and a hard place he is driving a dangerous wedge between us and a country we depend on for logistics, intelligence and support in the field.

I will watch closely as the day progresses because the two are supposed to meet in closed session. Mussharaf has survived multiple assaination attempts and if we lose him, as bad as he is, we could see a rapid destabilizaton of the entire region, including hostilities in the Kashimir between Pakistan and India.

Musharraf cannot back down on this point over territorial prerogative or he will be taken out at home and if Bush doesn't back down Musharraf will be forced to step back from his support of the US resulting in a far more dangerous situation vis a vis terrorist strongholds.

The other side of the problem is that Pakistan is now contributing to the growing unrest in Afghanistan and NATO is seeing a serious deterioration of conditions on the ground going into winter that bodes ill for the spring.

Like they say: "with friends like these who needs enemies".

#57 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 03:04 PM

It looks like Bush is trying to rethink his approach, maybe Condi really can talk to him.

http://news.yahoo.co...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

#58 mikelorrey

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 09:00 PM

(Jayfox)

Of course they were aware! By it's blatant nonintervention and silence towards atrocities that were committed against the Jews at that time the US and Britain could almost be seen to be condoning these actions.

I'm sorry, but if the U.S. was already involved in the war by 1943, and we were preparing for invasion in 1944, then how did we stand by? Non-intervention ceased the moment Germany declared war on the U.S., via their pact with Japan.

I'm not a WWII history buff, so I don't know all the particulars of our involvement in the European theater prior to D-Day, but I wasn't under the impression that we were ignoring the European theater altogether. And we were rather preoccupied with the Pacific theater.

War is war. It's not like we were ignoring the plight of the Jews because we didn't try "harder" to win a war we were already engaged in.


Actually, the main focus of US military might was on the European theater. This was an agreed policy between Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin, but Stalin had committed to attacking Japan, and didn't mention he had a secret treaty with them, which is why he didn't declare war on them until the last few days of the war.

Contrary to pacifists claims, both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were cities with military assets, and if you study the history of strategic bombing, you'd notice that US assertions that invading Japan would have cost millions of lives was generally accurate. If you scaled US casualties taking Okinawa and Iwo Jima, both considered Japanese home islands, up to taking the main islands, the casualty estimates were accurate.

Furthermore, the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not significantly different in casualty counts than any firebombing campaigns on any other city by conventional weapons. The only difference was it took several wings of planes to accomplish with incindiaries what one plane with a nuke could do.

So then, lets look at the practice of firebombing. For instance, Bomber Harris, the British Bomber Forces commander, is generally attacked for his rather ruthless policies of firebombing anything, and not caring what, which is why the Brits didn't mind bombing at night.

The US had its Norden bomb sights, and bombed during the day, and so long as they had fighter cover, they were rather safe in the air. But not having fighter cover meant ten times the casualties to your bomber squadrons. Pretty soon, you are out of bombers. The long range flying required to bomb the Japanese home islands across the Pacific excluded the possibility of fighter escort over the main islands. Worse, ground air defenses: AA particularly, was rather intense, while the B-29 was nowhere near as accurate as its builders claimed it would be. In order to bomb accurately, they had to fly low, but this caused bomber losses to increase exponentially. Bombing from high altitude was not accurate and produced little to no damage to targets. So, firebombing was the only option that produced the damage desired with minimal losses to crews.

In the Pacific, the Japanese were at least as heinous as the Nazis. Many people like to pretend the Nazis were evil for their treatment of the Jews, but that treatment was not unique. The Germans, at least, had regulations mandating x many calories a day of food, etc. just enough to keep the prisoners alive and able to work, a system which only broke down toward the end when food became short and they needed to dispose of all the bodies that piled up. Many deaths of concentration camp prisoners didn't happen until after the Germans abandoned the camps ahead of allied advance. Many camps were ignored by the allies for at least several days up to weeks because they were not military targets. This neglect led to far more disease and starvation related deaths than would have otherwise happened. The German treatment of POWs was somewhat better. Little to no slave labor, better food and living conditions, though certainly not any sort of spa conditions.

The Japanese, on the other hand, treated anybody who wasn't Japanese the same way: like shit. There was the rape of Nanking, but that was only the most well known incident. There was the Bataan Death March, and the Japanese treated American prisoners with contempt: rare feedings, frequent beatings, always slave labor. Those who were sick or injured were bayoneted or shot or beheaded. Allied prisoners were used as test subjects for chemical and biological weapons. The Bridge on the River Qwai was also a real story of the slave labor construction of the Japanese rail line through southeast asia. When the Japs were retreating from the Phillipines, they raped and killed the women and children of Intramuros before abandoning it to a firestorm they set. They sometimes took their prisoners with them, and sometimes didn't. Those they abandoned, they abandoned, and didn't tell the allies of the presence of the POW camps, leaving the prisoners to starve and die for months. Those they took with them, they often shipped in the holds of cargo ships that were not marked as prisoner ships, leaving them open to being torpedoed and dive bombed by American subs and aircraft. Those prisoners that made it to the main islands were put to slave labor in mines and other menial jobs. Those that misbehaved were beheaded, or worse, impaled on bamboo shafts and left to die, and often abused by Japanese civilians who happened by.

Then there was the genocide of millions of Chinese, the abuse of the Koreans and kidnapping of Korean women to serve the Japanese military as 'comfort girls', etc.

Don't tell me that Japan shouldn't have been nuked. They had it coming.

#59 mikelorrey

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 09:10 PM

BTW the Japanese had sued for peace in the months before the use of the Atom Bomb. 

Most people are unaware of the fact that these requests to surrender were rejected by the Allies as we would accept nothing but unconditional surrender.


Yes, but their idea of conditional surrender was to hold on to Korea, Taiwan, Manchuria, and keep the militarists in power, along with the Emperor. The pacifists today try to claim the Japs only wanted to hold onto the Emperor, but thats a lie: they got to hold onto the Emperor anyways, even with an unconditional surrender.

#60 jaydfox

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 09:34 PM

Thanks for the history lessons, everyone. Very fascinating indeed. I had always accepted the dropping of the A-bomb as a necessary event, something we strive to teach our children, right or wrong. I hadn't really allowed myself to question it until this thread. After reviewing a variety of opinions from multiple angles, I'm still conflicted, but generally leaning towards that it was justifiable under the tremendous circumstances.

But feel free to debate on.




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