116 replies to this topic

[bgwowk]

I find moral indignation at use of the atom bomb on Japan to be rather selective. Even before the atom bomb there were fire bombing campaigns over Japan that killed 100,000 people in a single night. The decision to target civilians with horrible weapons that would kill hundreds of thousands had been made by multiple combatants, including the British, long before the atom bomb. Dresden is the most famous example, but similar or worse carnage was repeated many times. People who were not there cannot imagine the desperation there was to end the war. There is also an element of historical injustice in forgetting the greater numbers of people who died in those conventional fire bombing campaigns. The main new ingredient added by the atom bomb that ended the war was that it made committing such acts look... easy. :(

[jaydfox]

The point is centered on, and is an easy to research example of how effortlessly the masses can follow and propagate propaganda more than half a century later. When we can so easily rationalize such decisions we doom ourselves and our children to more of the same.

I could see this as the case if it were an open-and-shut case that there was absolutely no justification for dropping the bomb. This is not borne out by the historial record.

If, in our 20/20 hindsight, it was possibly justifiable, then who are we to judge the decision made at the time, under duress, with far less available information? I agree that, if we could go back with all we know today and remake the decision, perhaps a different decision might be justified. But I'm not convinced it was obvious at the time that they were going over some line they should have known not to cross. As opposed to the current administration, where even with the current facts it seems fairly clear that we are crossing lines better not crossed.

[eternaltraveler]

The European union whose states at one point were incomparably vicious towards each other with long standing blood and border grudges managed to transcend their differences by being forced to consider peaceful and cooperative solutions. Speak to the average European and you encounter a stark contrast to the ideology and sense of history in the context of war and conflict compared to the average American. Think on this.

last I checked, the US, Europe, and Japan are all friends these days. None of us here are the average anything

[jaydfox]

last I checked, the US, Europe, and Japan are all friends these days.

I'm not sure how that point relates to what Prometheus said. Could you elaborate?

[eternaltraveler]

it seems that we all managed to consider peaceful cooperative solutions.

[eternaltraveler]

they also mostly managed to do all that transcendence due to of the larger threat of the Soviet Union.

[jaydfox]

The US is the only western civilization whose main preoccupation is war despite the fact that it has never been directly attacked.

Hawaii might not have been a full-fledged state within the union when Pearl Harbor was attacked, but ideologically most Americans consider that a direct attack (if for no other reason than that it was a large-scale direct attack on our navy). And while the war on terror might not be a "war" in the traditional sense, most Americans consider 9/11 a direct attack.

[marcus]

Prometheus,

The US is still by far the land of opportunity with the greatest amount of social mobility. The US economy is based upon the principle of “creative destruction” with great emphasis placed on competition while the EU has more of a social-market economy with more emphasis on cooperation. The result of this fundamental difference in economic philosophies leads to the US having far more social-economic mobility and a much higher economic growth rate. I also think the diversity of life-style is relatively equal in the US and Europe as both cultures are as about diverse as they can get.

[eternaltraveler]

Yah, Europe is shangrala all right. And the Japanese resentment of america runs straight to the core, explains their love of baseball.

As should be obvious, I'm no fan of a lot that has been going on in the US. Our constitution is essentially toilet paper. But to state that the US, Europe and Japan don't have extremely friendly relations is bunk. Hopping a flight to Europe or Japan is no more complicated than hopping a flight from philadelphia to new york (well you need a passport and customs coming back can be annoying).

Great Britian is as neck deep into this iraq mess as we are, which last I checked was in Europe.

[eternaltraveler]

Not only has America's image been very seriously marred by the present administration, but people cannot understand why they were elected for a second term and wondering if the American public is as disconnected from reality as much as their Government appears to be.

the same feelings expressed by the europeans you refer too can be found expressed in every US city, so we even have that in common. Bush didn't win by much. In several polls I saw before the second term election the option of "Not Bush" was shown to be ahead of both Bush, and Kerry. Which to me demonstrates just how terrible of a canidate the democrats put forth. The US is currently very polarized.

[chipl]

No surprise about the opinion of people on a public forum. I am reminded of Gore's movie, scientists don't disagree that humans have impacted the environment but in the public media most (by a small margin) think there is a debate. The media is certainly complicit with only about five major corporations controlling most channels and they all being heavily invested in weapons production. Still, the populous is not happy with Bush, http://www.pollingre...com/BushJob.htm . The actions to change the voting procedures have put control of the vote count into technology that is easily manipulated by those who are into dirty tricks and surprise, surprise, those dirty tricks are usurping elections in favor of the MIC. The people of this geographical space of which I am a part are not in control.

Europe? England has fallen right in to the garbage with Blair promised a two million dollars per year job as a board member of the Carlisle group (I understand) when he finally steps down. Germany, I understand, as well as Sweden (?) recently succumbed to so-called right wing domination in recent elections.

I think we are seeing a breakdown of our poorly constured social teleology. I further believe that it will impact people's ability to pursue immortality more than any other technology. The weather this winter should be interesting. Science is taking a back seat to second order cybernetic assumptions, a terminal state of affairs from my perspective. Heck, I don't even believe in America, just humans on a planet blowing away options and life for the sake of fantasies.

[marcus]

Prometheus,

I think most Americans share your opinions about our current administration's policies. The last approval rating for Bush I remember seeing was in the 30's. The reason it is even in the 30's is there is still a large core of Christian conservatives who will pretty much support any President they see as sharing their same views on God. Unfortunately, there is little we can do to try to present any different solutions to a President who stays isolated in his own rigid world views. One thing I have learned as I have gotten a little older and had a chance to see more history first hand is that the Executive branch in our government holds a lot of power. And Bush has worked to try and expand that power even further. Especially when it comes to matters of foreign affairs, we are fairly well subject to our President's ability or lack there of. There is some hope that the mid-term elections this year can cause a little bit of a shake-up in Congress and maybe change a few policies, but in reality I think we are stuck until '08 when we elect a new President.

As many problems as our country may have, I still argue there is great economic opportunity here like nowhere else in the world. The infra-structure Silicon Valley and our venture capital industry provide in starting new and innovative businesses is still rolling strong providing us with a steady stream of productivity growth and overall economic growth. Our willingness to sacrifice jobs in dead industries and retrain people for new industries still makes this the place to be for any kind of serious socio-economic advancement.

Marcus

Edited by marcus, 26 September 2006 - 03:19 AM.

[attis]

As for the pre-occupation with war, I don't think it's solely an American vice. Many countries, driven by blind patriotism will often chant the war slogans that deify their nation and 'cause' for the simple fact that it 'feels good.' Because of this, it's not a matter of reason nor discourse should these ideas be accepted, but are rather accepted in place of such things. Germany had its time as the savage nation, now America is becoming as such. It's sad too, considering how many inventions, scientific discoveries, and economic advances have all been possible within its borders. Now, the inheritors of this legacy turn their backs, passively or actively, on it to sanction the evils that are the anthithesis to it. It's strange to be one of those folks that is an American and won't turn away from the legacy I was given, because I feel like a stranger in a strange land, as if this country is not the country I was taught about by teachers and philosophers. Ultimately, this nation will probably fall or be ripped apart to make way for another Republic. I hope though, that the evil that has been spawned here by mediocrity and collectivism will die with it.

[RighteousReason]

Germany had its time as the savage nation, now America is becoming as such.

The Nazi regime went on a worldwide conquest to slaughter Jews, handicapped people, retards, homosexuals, etc etc etc. They rounded up millions of people and killed them in gas chambers, and invaded peaceful, and soveriegn countries for the purposes of murder and empire.

America went to war in Iraq and arrested a genocidal war-mongering dictator who was replaced with a government body that allows the people of Iraq to vote for their leaders that control their country. Our military only fires if they are fired upon. We arrest people that are attempting to murder innocent civilians.

America fights for peace, justice, and tolerance. Our enemies fight for death and religious hegemony.

What the hell is wrong with you?

[RighteousReason]

Why just Iraq? Why not Iran and North Korea? What about the genocidal governments in Africa? China has one of the worst human rights records in recent history. Err.. what government body? The country is technically in civil war. It appears Saddams regime for all its brutality kept far better order than the most powerful nation in the world can today.

I didn't say the war was not horribly executed and probably a really bad idea to begin with, or that even our approach to solving our problems was a good one. But it's certainly not the worst possible strategy.

And it is DEFINITELY NOT comparable to Nazi Germany for Christ's sake.

[mikelorrey]

Prometheus said: "Why just Iraq? Why not Iran and North Korea? What about the genocidal governments in Africa? China has one of the worst human rights records in recent history. Err.. what government body? The country is technically in civil war. It appears Saddams regime for all its brutality kept far better order than the most powerful nation in the world can today. "

Yeah, that is what they loved about Hitler and Moussolini as well: they made the trains run on time.

Get real. Iraq is NOT in civil war. There is an active insurgency in one, maybe two provinces, the rest of the country is pretty peaceful. Those insurgencies are actively supported by foreign nations (Syria, Iran) with weaponry, funds, and people (an Iranian intel officer was recently caught at an al Qaeda in Iraq safehouse, truckloads of IEDs made in Iran have been intercepted crossing the border).

You only see on the news what the MSM puts there, and only violence gets ratings. Video clips of the good, peaceful BORING things going on in the rest of Iraq are not news because BORING isn't BLEEDING.

[attis]

By my comparison of Germany to America is not that we're like the nazis, but rather our government is fueled by the same attitude of nationalism in its actions. As for the Iraq war, it was not to free a nation, it was to stop what was assumed a growing threat. If you want proof, read the transcript of GWB's speech at the UN just prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom. He spelt out his whole agenda for all to hear and understand. It was never for freedom, and it never will be. It was for simple PNAC aggressive foreign policy. All hinged on the belief that we can be like the British Empire and take the 'bush' out of the bushman. Good luck, the Brits are staying home this turn around and for a good reason. We'll get our black eye and learn our lesson, to stay out of the affairs of others whether it's right or wrong. Sometimes, being the hero isn't enough if you are the one dying for the cause no one cares about or wants to care about.

[JohnDoe1234]

By my comparison of Germany to America is not that we're like the nazis, but rather our government is fueled by the same attitude of nationalism in its actions. As for the Iraq war, it was not to free a nation, it was to stop what was assumed a growing threat. If you want proof, read the transcript of GWB's speech at the UN just prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom. He spelt out his whole agenda for all to hear and understand. It was never for freedom, and it never will be. It was for simple PNAC aggressive foreign policy. All hinged on the belief that we can be like the British Empire and take the 'bush' out of the bushman. Good luck, the Brits are staying home this turn around and for a good reason. We'll get our black eye and learn our lesson, to stay out of the affairs of others whether it's right or wrong. Sometimes, being the hero isn't enough if you are the one dying for the cause no one cares about or wants to care about.

It doesn't matter how you meant it, you are still completely wrong, America nor its leader cannot be compared to the Nazis in any way other than both forces wear uniforms, and they are human, their views are completely opposite of one another, Hitler justified his actions by stating that his race is superior and that all others were inferior and were only fit as firewood and slaves... Bush (even though I hate his guts) justifies his military actions by the fact that he is Reacting to a threat, he is not causing it, he is merely attempting to resolve it.

What would you rather America do? sit here and go "It's ok Al Qaeda, it was just two buildings... we have plenty more... just be careful next time"?

I think a long-term occupation of the entire region is the only way that this problem will be resolved, and I think that is what will end up happening, even if it takes decades, however, within the next 10 years we will have some significantly advanced ground/air drone technology which will save American lives, and make the process much less bloody.

Great Britain got it's Black-Eye because it spread its forces WAY too thin, we however do not have that problem, we are the only nation with the logistics capability to wage a major overseas regional war for decades on end.

And you are also very wrong when you say that no one cares about the cause, you answer this... if there was no American military willing to die for your sorry ass how would you like to wake up to IEDs, RPGs and Suicidal freaks with bombs strapped to their stomach in your neighborhood? We aren't doing this for the sake of being a hero, but rather setting the world straight!... you are just sitting in your comfortable chair at your nice little computer b*tching about how things aren't done right while others are doing all of the work!

When a nation is attacked, it must defend itself!, If a leader had your attitude their nation wouldn't last a year, it would be overcome by more powerful and forthcoming nations... we simply can't tolerate this terrorism in any part of the world, and we can't tolerate weakness!

It's a real shame that we don't have more nations like Israel, they really know how to deal with terrorists, they are just limited on their resources.