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NDE white tunnel


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#1 Infernity

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 04:42 PM


Many NDE (near death experience) people and recently I've found oddly that mom too, say there was this bright tunnel and all.
My theory is (and I've seen a research about that that claims the same thing), is that this "tunnel of light" is merely the doctor's flashlight/the room's light, for people who experienced NDE, live just because they were in the right time at the hospital for such cases happen in matter of seconds or you die. you see blurry because there is no oxygen, you feel loose, cause of the same reason, and your brain accumulates all the light sources and gathers it, and all you "see" is light and all, what do you think?
It was the first time I spoke with mom of that, was kinda shocked. It was just when I was born.


So what do you think is that tunnel thingie?

-Infernity

#2 Lazarus Long

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 05:15 PM

If you research further Adi you will find that there is a significant spike, or *firing of neurons and the corresponding massive cascading release* of neurotransmitters at the moment of NDE.

It is likely this experience is more like a simulated sensory overload that also could explain the appearance of the *white light* and even perhaps, the relived your life perception. This kind of thing is more analogous to why people see *lights flashing before their eyes* after an impact to the eye than necessarily a physical external source.

The chemistry of the optic-neural relationship goes much farther to explain the phenomenon than coincidental outside influence or a mystical one. However the mundane neurochemistry is nowhere near as romantic, or emotionally inspiring and satisfying as the spiritual interpretation.

http://www.abc.net.a...es/s1617998.htm

http://www.ingentaco.../...20at death"

#3 Infernity

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:10 AM

Oh, thank you Laz, I will read further when I get back home (currently in school break) ..

-Infernity

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#4 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:03 AM

Yeah, I've heard here and there that NDEs were most likely just massive amounts of neural activity due to stress on the body, but I never actually spent the time to look it up... I think that it is very interesting that religious types find it so easy to apply a spiritual meaning to something as simple as a white out... so what else is being mislabeled here? could some be arbitrarily applying god's words to their own conscious thoughts claiming that it is god talking to them? It seems that even my president does that... kind of scary...

#5 kylyssa

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 11:56 AM

Pain crushed in, unbearable, and with it, terror. Logically, I knew I had at least punctured a
lung and I remembered the thick, deep, deafening snap of the bones in my head. "Mama!!"
A child screamed in my darkest heart. Something made a freakish, wet, squeaking, gurgling
sound. I remembered a kitten, accidentally crushed underfoot, pink froth on its tiny snout.
I felt nauseous and light-headed even though I was flat in my back. Metallic, choking foam
filled my mouth and my nostrils clogged with burning vomit. The child whithered near to silence,
whimpered, "Mama?" almost unheard beneath static, or was it surf? I felt oddly detached, almost
comfortable as my vision grew dim, a shrinking circle of light which collapsed into blackness.

"Mama?"

I suddenly felt an incredible lightness of self, as if my mind were full of helium and was floating
through the top of my head. Then I WAS mind. All pain was lifted from me. I shot through a
long tunnel, wind whistling through my self. I splashed into a glorious fountain of light. It was full
of beautiful people of all ages flushed in the glory of perfect youth. They were playing and laughing
with all-consuming joy. The music of every song ever written and to be written throbbed coolly
through the fire of my being. I had thirsted and was quenched. I felt as if cradled in pure love.
I felt safer than I ever had before while held there like a babe in my Mother's arms.




...........



I remember this from when my heart stopped when I went into shock. However, I also do not
believe it indicates an afterlife in any way. I believe the experience was completely biological/
psychological in nature. I've had brain trauma injuries and have experienced "religious ecstasies"
during seizures. Without the pre-conditioning to interpret the feelings as afterlife experiences or
"God" experiences I just didn't. Well, and my Mom wasn't even dead at the time. I can see why
these profound biochemical events reinforce religious thoughts. The experience is more intense
than reality because it isn't reality filtering through your senses to your brain, it's happening
right in your brain. Freakish electrical activity and endorphins must combine and produce these
visions. I have no religious or sentimental feelings about the NDE I described above but a part of
me still longs for that nonexistent fountain. The pain must have created a highly addictive natural
opiate cocktail. If running past the pain gives you a runner's high, imagine what kind of high the
endorphins of a “mortal wounding” must give you?



No one sees it as a mystical experience when many people report loss of consciousness preceded
by tunnel vision when they faint. To me, the lighted tunnel is just a further biological phenomenon.
Everything goes wonky, a sizzling, roaring sound fills your head. Static fills your field of vision,
which shrinks from the outside edges inward until "swoosh" ... blackness covers you like a blanket.
Normally, that's it, you remember no more. You just recover from your brief fall towards a lower
consciousness. When your heart stops it takes it another step out there. Maybe it's more like a
reboot than a shallow loss of consciousness? That the hallucinations are similar in nature between
different people is not surprising - most of us have similar feelings and impressions of fainting, don't
we? Our hardware is all very similar so why wouldn't a decent percentage experience similar reboot
hallucinations if a decent percentage experiences similar shutdown sensations??



I see the NDE's as a RETURN from a deeper level of unconsciousness or profound shutdown
rather than as the entry to the "death" experience. I equate it with not sliding in to a death state
but rising up out of a near death state with the perceived rising into the tunnel as an elevation of
consciousness up to the sleeping, dreaming state and then anything following is a waking to
consciousness from that state.

I see the "tunnel thingie" as a sort of reverse of "tunnel vision" that occurs when you black out.
Light "blooms" out of the center of your field of vision and fills in the whole of it.

#6 Infernity

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 04:13 PM

Oh kylyssa, I'd hug you.


Thank you for sharing all this.


-Infernity

#7 kylyssa

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 03:05 PM

You're as sweet as you are brilliant. Thank you.

It needs to be shared. I can understand how people come to the idea that they are being shown the afterlife so it's important to let people know that it's an illusion. If I had been comforted by a dead loved one in that "vision" I'm not 100% sure I wouldn't have taken to some belief in the afterlife. It was that powerful. In my mind, my Mother was the embodiment of love and comfort. Most people who get "restarted" are probably older than I was and have a pretty good chance of having a deceased Parent at the time, or if they see God as an embodiment of love or comfort, they'd see/feel that.

I have a theory about people who see "Hell," too. Often when you get "restarted" you'll get injected with adrenaline (epinephrine) during CPR. Even any leftovers should be quite a lot of adrenaline compared to what your brain is used to and definitely more than your brain is used to during dream states. Excess adrenalin causes anxiety. Basically you then have a person in a dream state having a panic attack as they rise up through lower states of consciousness to dreaming - another unusual and profound but not pleasant experience.

#8 braz

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:12 PM

We only hear about NDE from a few certain cases of patients who are snapped out of consciousness, and whose organs have stopped functioning. However, in the majority of NDE cases, there is no religious experience. People who are revived later tell that they felt nothing during their struggle with life and death. It was just like a void in their memory. So what happened there? Did those people miss out on the religious experience or something?

#9 kylyssa

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 10:52 PM

The unique biochemical conditions required didn't come about. It requires a bizarre set of physical, mental, and emotional circumstances to cause those NDE "afterlife" experiences.

#10 braz

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 04:49 AM

Yes, it obviously seems to be the case. Also, people of different religious backgrounds tend to see images that suit their own imagination about afterlife. Hindus, muslims, christians all report experiences with elements from their own religion. Quite strangely, there's never been a detailed, proven case of a person going through a NDE, and then speaking a different language or doing something completely abnormal after. All these stories are a load of BULL.

However, http://www.near-death.com/ provides information about cases when a patient was brain-dead, and still managed to have a NDE. Supposedly, they described the process of operation, as well as managing to go down the vortex tunnel, approaching light at the end and meeting their deceased relatives. But again, there is no solid proof or any hard, scientific evidence that would completely prove the validity of these supernatural experiences. It could easily be carefully pre-planned lies in order to keep religion alive and keep the church sedated in power.

#11 Infernity

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 11:49 AM

Also, people of different religious backgrounds tend to see images that suit their own imagination about afterlife. Hindus, muslims, christians all report experiences with elements from their own religion.


Every individual believes with his entire heart in his own God, and that's what his brain knows. Though deep inside, it's all a self-comfort. Of course they want is to be their God, of course they convince themselves it is- otherwise it means there is nothing.


-Infernity

#12 kylyssa

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 02:52 PM

It could easily be carefully pre-planned lies in order to keep religion alive and keep the church sedated in power.


I doubt it. I'm an atheist and had a "vision." I'm still an atheist. I've also had "visions" during seizures. It's purely brain chemistry/electricity/biology. Without my upbringing and absence of beliefs I'm sure I would have ascribed a religious meaning to it.

The tendency of "true believers" is to take whatever feeble straws of "proof" they can.

I've encountered many a believer who did not believe the brain and it's health had anything at all to do with behaviour. In rehab I met a lot of people less fortunate than I. One had suffered a brain injury causing him to have no apparent conscience. In discussing this with believers I've asked what they thought about his "soul" now that he would be apt to "sin" without remorse due to his condition. Many have responded that he can choose not to behave in a sinful manner. Huh??? They are also the most apt to tell depressives they can choose not to be depressed, etc. Religious folk get indoctrinated to the point they refuse to believe any organic basis to thought. Believing the brain is the center of thought and emotion is too dangerous to their "soul" concept.

#13 braz

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 09:37 PM

Here's an interesting article. http://www.mindsprin...de/jansen1.html





The Ketamine Model of the Near Death Experience: A Central Role for the NMDA Receptor Dr. Karl L. R.

Jansen, MD, PhD, MRCPsych.
Psychiatrist
The Maudsley Hospital
Denmark Hill
London SE5 8AZ
United Kingdom
K@BTInternet.com
About the Author

Dr. Karl Jansen was born in New Zealand and trained in medicine at the University of Otago. After registering as a medical practitioner, he proceeded to carry out brain research at the University of Auckland as a research fellow of the New Zealand Medical Research Council. At this time he became interested in ketamine and its effects and published his first observations in this area, and also in antipodean use, users and consequences of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. He then went to the United Kingdom, and attended the University of Oxford (New College) were he completed a Doctor of Philosophy in Clinical Pharmacology. He was the Glaxo Fellow at Green College. On completion of his studies at Oxford, he went to the Maudsley Hospital and London Institute of Psychiatry to complete his training as a psychiatrist. He is now a member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. His current research interests are the ketamine model of the near-death experience and the consequences of long-term, high dose recreational use of Ecstasy (MDMA).

He would like to receive correspondence concening the subject of this paper.

Dr. Jansen has the following to say about the journal article that follows:
'I am no longer as opposed to spritual explanations of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof. Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states' and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term at all. But the apparent emphasis on matter over mind contained within this particular article no longer accurately represents my attitudes. My forthcoming book 'Ketamine' will consider mystical issues from quite a different perspective, and will give a much stronger voice to those who see drugs as just another door to a space, and not as actually producing that space'.


Abstract
Near-death experiences (NDE's) can be reproduced by ketamine via blockade of receptors in the brain (the N-methyl-D-aspartate, NMDA receptors) for the neurotransmitter glutamate. Conditions which precipitate NDE's (hypoxia, ischaemia, hypoglycaemia, temporal lobe epilepsy etc.) have been shown to release a flood of glutamate, overactivating NMDA receptors resulting in neuro ('excito') toxicity. Ketamine prevents this neurotoxicity. There are substances in the brain which bind to the same receptor site as ketamine. Conditions which trigger a glutamate flood may also trigger a flood of neuroprotective agents which bind to NMDA receptors to protect cells, leading to an altered state of consciousness like that produced by ketamine. This article extends and updates the theory proposed in 1990 (Jansen, 1990b).

Introduction
The near-death experience (NDE) is a phenomenon of considerable importance to medicine, neuroscience, neurology, psychiatry, philosophy and religon (Stevenson and Greyson, 1979; Greyson and Stevenson, 1980; Ring, 1980; Sabom, 1982; Jansen, 1989a,b, 1990b). Unfortunately, some scientists have been deterred from conducting research upon the NDE by claims that NDE's are evidence for life after death, and sensationalist media reports which impart the air of a pseudoscience to NDE studies. Irrespective of religous beliefs, NDE's are not evidence for life after death on simple logical grounds: death is defined as the final, irreversible end. Anyone who 'returned' did not, by definition, die - although their mind, brain and body may have been in a very unusual state.
There is overwhelming evidence that 'mind' results from neuronal activity. The dramatic effects on the mind of adding hallucinogenic drugs to the brain, and the religous experiences which sometimes result, provide further evidence for this (Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981). One of the many contradictions which 'after-lifers' can not resolve is that "the spirit rises out of the body leaving the brain behind, but somehow still incorporating neuronal functions such as sight, hearing, and proprioception" (Morse, 1989, original italics).

All features of a classic NDE can be reproduced by the intravenous administration of 50 - 100 mg of ketamine (Domino et al., 1965; Rumpf ,1969; Collier, 1972; Siegel,1978, 1980,1981; Stafford, 1977; Lilly, 1978; Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981; White, 1982; Ghoniem et al., 1985; Sputz, 1989; Jansen, 1989a,b, 1990b, 1993). There is increasing evidence which suggests that the reproduction of NDE's by ketamine is unlikely to be a coincidence. This evidence includes the discovery of the major neuronal binding site for ketamine, known as the phencyclidine (PCP) binding site of the NMDA receptor (Thomson et al., 1985), the importance of NMDA receptors in the cerebral cortex, particularly in the temporal and frontal lobes, the key role of these sites in cognitive processing, memory, and perception, their role in epilepsy, psychoses, hypoxic/ischaemic and epileptic cell damage (excitotoxicity), the prevention of this damage by ketamine, the discovery of substances in the brain called 'endopsychosins' which bind to the same site as ketamine, and the role of ions such as magnesium and zinc in regulating the site (Anis et al., 1983; Quirion et al., 1984; Simon et al., 1984; Benveniste et al., 1984; Ben-Ari,1985; Thomson, 1986; Coan and Collingridge, 1987; Collingridge, 1987; Contreras et al., 1987; Rothman et al., 1987; Mody et al., 1987; Quirion et al., 1987; Westbrook and Mayer, 1987; Sonders et al., 1988; Barnes,1988; Choi,1988; Monaghan et al., 1989; Jansen et al., 1989a,b,c, 1990a,b,c, 1991a,b,c, 1993).


Characteristic Features of the Near-Death Experience
There is no internationally determined and agreed set of criteria which define the NDE, no list of 'research diagnostic criteria' similar to those provided by the American Psychiatric Association (APA) for psychiatric disorders. This lack has allowed some critics of neurobiological models to dismiss these models because some particular criterion which they believe to be important may not have been fully accounted for by the model being proposed, although it may well be that a consensus, statistical definition of the key features of the NDE would not include those features - just as, for example, the APA definition of schizophrenia (1980) represents an international consensus and avoids the sectarian views of a few, or inclusion of obscure cases which do not meet the general rule. For example, Gabbard and Twemlow (1989) argued that Saavedra -Aguilar and Gomez-Jeria's neurobiological hypothesis (1989), which was based on temporal lobe electrical abnormalities, did not have general validity because Gabbard and Twemlow had identified 5 cases in which hypoxia and stress did not appear to be a triggering factor (temporal lobe epilepsy, and many acute psychoses, can occur spontaneously without any apparent triggering factors). These cases are certainly not adequate grounds for the dismissal of neurobiological models.
Ketamine administered by intravenous injection, in appropriate dosage, is capable of reproducing all of the features of the NDE which have been commonly described in the most cited works in this field, and the following account is based upon these (Domino et al., 1965; Rumpf, 1969; Collier, 1972; Siegel,1978, 1980, 1981; Stafford, 1977; Lilly, 1978; Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981; White, 1982; Ghoniem et al., 1985; Sputz, 1989; Jansen, 1989a, b,1990b, 1991c, 1993). Important features of NDE's include a sense that what is experienced is 'real' and that one is actually dead, a sense of ineffability, timelessness, and feelings of calm and peace, although some cases have been frightening. There may be analgesia, apparent clarity of thought, a perception of separation from the body, and hallucinations of landscapes, beings such as 'angels', people including partners, parents, teachers and friends (who may be alive at the time), and religous and mythical figures. Transcendant mystical states are commonly described. Memories may emerge into consciousness, and are rarely organised into a 'life review' (Greyson, 1983).

Hearing noises during the initial part of the NDE has also been described (Noyes and Kletti, 1976a; Morse et al., 1985; Osis and Haraldsson, 1977; Greyson and Stevenson, 1980; Ring, 1980; Sabom, 1982). Ring (1980) classified NDE's on a 5 stage continuum: 1.feelings of peace and contentment; 2.a sense of detachment from the body; 3. entering a transitional world of darkness (rapid movements through tunnels: 'the tunnel experience'); 4. emerging into bright light; and 5. 'entering the light'. 60% experienced stage 1, but only 10% attained stage 5 (Ring, 1980). As might be expected in a mental state with a neurobiological origin, more mundane accounts also occur, e.g. children who may 'see' their schoolfellows rather than God and angels (Morse, 1985). It is clear that NDE's are not as homogeneous as some have claimed.


Ketamine and Phencyclidine
Ketamine is a short-acting, hallucinogenic, dissociative anaesthetic related to phencyclidine (PCP). Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anaesthetic for children (White et al., 1982). Anaesthetists attempt to prevent patients from having NDE's (emergence phenomena) by the co-administration of benzodiazepines and other sedative substances which produce 'true' unconsciousness rather than dissociation (Reich and Silvay, 1989).
Ketamine produces an altered state of consciousness which is very different from that of the 'psychedelic' drugs such as LSD (Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981). It can reproduce all features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into light, the conviction that one is dead, 'telepathic communion with God', hallucinations, out-of-body experiences and mystical states (see ketamine references above). If given intravenously, it has a short action with an abrupt end. Grinspoon and Bakalar (1981, p34) wrote of: '...becoming a disembodied mind or soul, dying and going to another world. Childhood events may also be re-lived. The loss of contact with ordinary reality and the sense of participation in another reality are more pronounced and less easily resisted than is usually the case with LSD. The dissociative experiences often seem so genuine that users are not sure that they have not actually left their bodies.'

A psychologist with experience of LSD described ketamine as 'experiments in voluntary death' (Leary, 1983, p375). Sputz (1989, p65) noted:'one infrequent ketamine user reported a classic near-death experience..."I was convinced I was dead. I was floating above my body. I reviewed all of the events of my life and saw a lot of areas where I could have done better". The psychiatrist Stanislav Grof stated: "If you have a full-blown experience of ketamine, you can never believe there is death or that death can possibly influence who you are" (Stevens, 1989, p481-482). 'Ketamine allows some patients to reason that ...the strange, unexpected intensity and unfamiliar dimension of their experience means they must have died..' (Collier, 1981, p552).

Attempts to explain NDE's as hallucinations are sometimes rejected by spiritualists because many persons insist upon the reality of their experiences (Osis and Haraldsson, 1977; Ring, 1980). However, 30% of normal subjects given ketamine were certain that they had not been dreaming or hallucinating, but that the events had really happened (Rumpf et al., 1969; see also Siegel, 1978). What is a hallucination ? " a hallucination has the immediate sense of reality of a true perception .....transient hallucinatory experiences are common in individuals without mental disorder" (APA, 1980). The apparently clear sensorium of some persons who have had NDE's has also been used to argue that the NDE is 'real' and not a hallucination (Osis and Haraldsson, 1977; Ring, 1980). It is thus important to note that hallucinations in schizophrenia typically occur in clear consciousness and are believed to be real (APA, 1980). A personal conviction of the 'reality' of an NDE does not invalidate scientific explanations. Some users of LSD have claimed that their minds are clearer than usual, and that the LSD world is real while the 'normal' world is a veil of illusion (Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981). Cardiac arrest survivors have been reported as describing their resuscitation in detail (Sabom, 1982). Ketamine can permit sufficient sensory input to allow accounts of procedures during which the patient appeared wholly unconscious (Siegel, 1981).


Glutamate, NMDA and Sigma Receptors, and the Hippocampus
Most large neurones in the cerebral cortex use glutamate as their neurotransmitter. Glutamate, an excitatory amino acid, is central to the function of the hippocampus, temporal and frontal lobes (Cotman et al., 1987; Fagg and Foster, 1983; Greenamyre et al., 1984; Monaghan, Bridges and Cotman, 1989; Jansen et al., 1989c, 1990a) and plays a vital role in all cognitive processes involving the cerebral cortex, including thinking, memory and perception (Monaghan, Bridges and Cotman, 1989; Oye et al., 1992).
The major neuronal binding site for ketamine is called the PCP receptor, which is itself attached to the NMDA receptor (Monaghan, Bridges and Cotman, 1989). As they are part of the same macromolecular complex, the two terms are sometimes used interchangeably. It was formerly believed that the sigma and PCP sites were the same entity, but it is now clear that sigma receptors are very different, have a unique distribution in the CNS, and are not a form of opioid receptor (Walker et al., 1990; Jansen et al., 1991b) .

There was initially some debate as to whether the hallucinogenic properties of ketamine were due to NMDA or sigma receptors (Jansen, 1990b). These effects are now largely attributed to NMDA receptor blockade (Krystal et al., 1994). Sigma ligands with a high degree of specificity (e.g. (+)pentazocine) do not produce NDE's at doses where most of the binding is to sigma rather than NMDA and/or kappa opioid receptors (sigma receptor ligands frequently have affinity for NMDA and/or kappa opioid receptors at higher doses) (Musacchio et al., 1990; Walker et al., 1990).

When glutamate is present in excess, neurones die via a process called excitotoxicity. Conditions which have been proven to lead to excessive release of glutamate include hypoxia/ischaemia, epilepsy and hypoglycaemia (e.g. Rothman, 1984; Rothman and Olney, 1986, 1987). Blockade of PCP receptors prevents cell death from excitotoxicity (e.g. Rothman et al., 1987). The brain may thus have a protective mechanism against a glutamate flood: release of a counter-flood of substances which block PCP receptors, preventing neuronal death. Considering the sophistication of the brain's many known defences, and the vulnerability of neurones to hypoxia, a protective mechanism against excitotoxicity seems very likely. This is the only speculation in the process outlined above: the other statements are strongly supported by experimental evidence (Benveniste et al.,1984; Simon et al., 1984; Ben-Ari, 1985; King and Dingledine, 1986; Rothman et al., 1987; Westerberg et al., 1987; Hoyer and Nitsch, 1989). A peptide called a-endopsychosin, which binds to the PCP receptor, has been found in the brain (Quirion et al., 1984). Certain ions such as magnesium and zinc also act as endogenous PCP channel blockers (Thomson, 1986; Westbrook and Mayer, 1987; Cotman, Monaghan and Ganong, 1988), and it is possible that these ions are centrally involved in producing NDE's.


Scientific Hypotheses and NDE's
Claims that NDE's must have a single explanation (e.g. Ring, 1980), or that a scientific theory must explain all of the experiences ever given the name of NDE (e.g. Gabbard and Twemlow, 1989) are difficult to justify. It is well established that mental phenomena have multiple causes and variable expressions. The NDE is more likely to be the final common expression of several different causes. Even then, the final 'common' expression contains sufficient variability to suggest different types of NDE, for example in Ring's study (1980), only 10% 'enter the light'. A multi-levelled interpretation is thus the most useful. The glutamate hypothesis of the NDE is not intended to apply to every NDE, and is not necessarily incompatible with the theories described below.

Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
It has been claimed that there is some similarity between the phenomena experienced in temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) and NDE's (Persinger and Makarec ,1987; Saavedra-Aguilar and Gomez-Jeria,1989). Glutamate is the key neurotransmitter in the temporal lobe, particularly in the hippocampus, and is implicated in epilepsy. The neuropathology of epilepsy is believed to result from excito-toxic cell death (Ben-Ari, 1985; King and Dingledine, 1986; Olney, Collins and Sloviter, 1986; Mody and Heinemann, 1987; Cotman, Monaghan and Ganong, 1988).
A neuroprotective system might become active in any excitotoxic situation including epilepsy. The degree of damage, and the mental state, resulting from a glutamate flood may depend on the final balance in each neuronal pathway between excito-toxic forces and neuroprotective mechanisms. Persons who were oxygen deprived for prolonged periods and had a profound NDE, sometimes survived the episode unimpaired (Sabom, 1982). The lack of apparent brain damage may result from a very effective mechanism for glutamatergic blockade in those individuals.

It is also possible that ketamine has its effects by mimicing some of the pathological processes seen in temporal lobe epilepsy. Even though ketamine blocks glutamatergic transmission, and prevents excitotoxic cell death, the effect of ketamine upon the human electroencephalograph (the EEG) suggests that it can be epileptogenic - the final result of ketamine acting in the brain is the result of a complex interplay of forces. There is a reduction in a wave activity, but b, d and q wave activity are increased (Schwartz et al. 1974; Pichlmayr et al., 1984). Ketamine acts both as an anticonvulsant (e.g. McCarthy et al., 1965; Celesia and Chen, 1974; Taberner, 1976; Leccese et al., 1986; Mares et al., 1992) and as a pro-convulsant (Bennet et al., 1973; Gourie et al., 1983; Myslobodsky, 1981). Myslobodsky (1981) reported that ketamine could produce epileptiform EEG patterns in human limbic and thalamic regions, but that there was no evidence that this affected other cortical regions or that fits were likely to occur. This is consistent with the NDE model presented by Saavedra-Aguilar and Gomez-Jeria (1989) involving limited electrical abnormalites in the limbic system. Thus production of NDE's by ketamine is not at odds with proposals that NDE's may result from abnormal electrical activity. Reich and Silvay (1989): " it is hard to draw objective conclusions regarding the anti-convulsant properties of ketamine...animal data are particularly difficult to interpret because of interspecies variations". Ketamine is probably anticonvulsant at NDE producing doses (Myslobodsky, 1981) suggesting that a PCP receptor blocker is released to produce the NDE.


A Flood of Endorphins
Carr (1981, 1989) proposed that NDE's resulted from a flood release of endogenous opioids (endorphins). It had been reported that survival time was increased by giving opiate antagonists (e.g. naloxone) in fatal circumstances (Holoday and Faden, 1978). More recently, a sudden increment of b-endorphin has been reported in the brain and body fluids of dogs who are 'conscious' at the moment of death (Sotelo et al., 1995). It is now known that a glutamate flood results in excitotoxic cell death in hypoxia/ischaemia and epilepsy (see above). However, glutamate is an amino acid. Endorphins are unlikely to produce NDE's as they are not potent dissociative hallucinogens (Oyama et al., 1980). Injection of b-endorphin into the CSF has analgesic effects lasting well over 22 hours (Oyama et al.,1980). This does not match the time course of a typical NDE which is relatively brief. Ketamine produces brief, deep analgesia (White et al., 1982) due to NMDA (PCP) receptor blockade ( e.g. Schouenberg and Sjolund, 1986; Parsons et al., 1988). The limited psychotomimetic properties of some opioids (e.g. (-) pentazocine) result from binding to k opioid receptors, and to PCP receptors at higher doses (Pfieffer et al., 1986; Mussachio et al., 1990). However, the effects of (-)pentazocine binding to k receptors, at doses which are relatively selective, are described as 'feelings of cheerfulness and strength' (Belville and Forrest, 1968), a description bearing no resemblance to the dramatic effects of ketamine or NDE's. With higher doses, more marked effects may appear as a result of binding to PCP receptors - but pentazocine is not an endorphin. Claims that sigma- selective (+)isomers of benzomorphan opiates have psychotomimetic effects are not generally supported by human trials, carried out in the 1960's, which demonstrated that it is the (-)isomers which have psychotomimetic properties - and these may prefer PCP receptors rather than sigma sites (review: Mussachio,1990). The naloxone-reversible component is due to k opioid receptor binding, while the naloxone insensitive component is due to PCP (i.e. NMDA) receptor binding, not sigma binding (Walker et al., 1990). The role of opioid receptors in ketamine effects is contoversial (Reich and Silvay, 1989). Naloxone could not reverse the effects of ketamine in humans (Amiot et al., 1985) and dogs (Vaupel, 1983). However, ketamine is supplied as a racemic mixture of (+)and (-) isomers. The controversy may be resolved by studying the separate effects of the isomers, and the doses at which these appear. As doses rise, drugs bind to a wider range of receptors. Ketamine can induce NDE's at doses about four times less than those required for anaesthesia (Stafford, 1977; Lilly, 1979; Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981; Sputz, 1989). White et al. (1980) reported that it was (+)ketamine which has some opioid binding properties and which produced the most anaesthesia, while (-)ketamine produced more NDE's (described by anaesthetists as 'psychic emergence reactions'). White et al. (1985) went on to show that (+)ketamine is about four times more potent as a hypnotic and analgesic, and has different effects upon the EEG.
Saavedra-Aguilar and Gomez-Jeria (1989) cited animal experiments showing b-endorphin to be epileptogenic to support an argument that b-endorphins produce NDE's (e.g. McGinty et al., 1986; Henriksen et al., 1978). While b-endorphin may have had these effects within the rat paradigms used, opioids usually produce calming, inhibitory effects in humans - not excitation or states resembling epilepsy (Meltzer, 1987). Released peptides probably have protective functions rather than contributing further to excito-toxicity. The finding of Su, London and Jaffe (1988), that some steroids bind to sigma receptors, was cited to suggest that steroids could play a role in NDE's. However, the steroid was progesterone which is not a hallucinogen. Schwartz et al. (1989) reported that the affinity of progesterone for the sigma site is insufficient to result in significant receptor occupancy, except in pregnancy.


Hypoxia and Hypercarbia
1. Hypoxia: Blacher (1980) suggested that hypoxia induced NDE's. This has been criticised by some authors (Sabom, 1982) as studies involving a slow fall in inspired oxygen produced mental clouding rather than NDE's (Henderson et al., 1927). However, these studies are not an accurate model of events in, for example, cardiac arrest. Sudden hypoxia causes an excessive release of glutamate with resulting excitotoxicity, which can be prevented by ketamine (see previous references).
2. Hypercarbia: a CO2-enriched breathing mixture can result in typical NDE phenomena such as bodily detachment and the perception of being drawn towards a bright light. Diverse personality types produced broadly similar reports, suggesting a shared neurological substrate (Meduna, 1950).


Serotonin
Like endorphins, serotonergic effects may be contributory but are unlikely to play a central role in the NDE. Psychedelic drugs such as LSD are serotonergic in action and produce a mental state very different from NDE's . There is frequently an overwhelming increase in sensory input from the external environment (Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981), in contrast to the dissociation produced by ketamine. Psychedelic visual phenomena bear little relationship to the dream-like images of ketamine and the NDE. 'Ego dissolution' experienced on LSD has a different quality from the conviction of having died which may arise with ketamine. Loss of contact with the external environment leading rapidly to the 'tunnel experience' is not a typical psychedelic drug effect, although it may occur.

Psychological
1. Depersonalisation: The NDE may be an adaptive mechanism which alerts one to the threat of death while potentially overwhelming emotion is held at bay. The reality can then be integrated without panic (Greyson, 1983; Noyes and Kletti, 1976a,b). This model is applicable when death is psychologically near as when falling from a cliff. While protecting nerve cells from excitotoxicity is then irrelevant, glutamate and NMDA receptors would be involved in producing the experience as they play a key role in cognition and perception.
2. Regression in the service of the ego: confronting death cuts off the external world resulting in regression to a pre-verbal level. This is experienced as mystical ineffability (Greyson, 1983). Losing contact with the external world is one of the most typical effects of ketamine. This is partially due to blockade of NMDA receptors involved in sensory transmission. NMDA receptors play a central role in the transmission of data from all sensory modalities (Davies and Watkins, 1983; Greenamyre et al., 1984; Headley et al., 1985; Cotman et al., 1987; Cline et al.,1987; Monaghan, Bridges and Cotman, 1988; Kisvardy et al., 1989; Oye et al., 1992).

3. State dependant reactivation of birth memories (Grof and Halifax, 1977). Movement through tunnels towards light may be a memory of being born : a 'near-birth experience'. NMDA receptor blockade could be the mechanism for such a reactivation of primitive memories.

4. Sensory deprivation: memories may normally be suppressed by a 'gate' which admits primarily external signals when we are fully conscious and concentrating upon an external task (Siegel,1980, 1981). If this input is dramatically reduced (e.g. by ketamine or a heart attack) in combination with central stimulation (e.g. by excessive glutamate release during hypoxia, epilepsy, or arising without external provocation), stored perceptions are released and become 'organised' into a meaningful experience by psychodynamic forces in the mind in question (Greyson, 1983). The 'white light' may result from CNS stimulation , and also a possible lowering of the phosphene perceptual threshold (Siegel,1980, 1981). Sensory deprivation can produce profound alterations in consciousness (Lilly, 1961,1978).

The hippocampus is the anatomical location of the 'memory gate' described above. NMDA receptors form the molecular substrate of the gate. NMDA receptors have their highest concentration in the hippocampus, a part of the medial temporal lobe where data from the external world is integrated with internal programs. The NMDA receptor plays an important role in learning, and in the formation and retrieval of memories. The PCP receptor is referred to as a 'gated channel'. Whether the gate is open or closed depends on the degree of excitation - specifically, the position of a magnesium ion in the channel. In simple terms, ketamine blocks this channel and closes the gate to incoming data (Monaghan, Bridges and Cotman, 1989; Morris et al., 1986; Collingridge, 1987; McNaughton and Morris, 1987; Cotman, Monaghan and Ganong, 1988).


Drug-induced hallucinations ?
Administered drugs may explain some cases of NDE's, but in most no drugs were given with effects of this nature (Sabom, 1982).

Conclusions
NDE's can be safely induced by ketamine, and the glutamate theory of the NDE can thus be investigated by experiment. Discoveries in neuroscience suggest a common origin for ketamine experiences and the NDE in events occuring at glutamatergic synapses, mediated by NMDA receptors via their PCP channel component. This hypothesis links most of the neurobiological and psychological theories (hypoxia, a peptide flood, temporal lobe electrical abnormalities, regression in the service of the ego, reactivation of birth memories, sensory deprivation etc.) rather than being an alternative to them. Most of the tenets of the hypothesis are strongly supported by experimental evidence which implicates glutamate and NMDA receptors in the processes which precipitate NDE's. The postulate that anti-excitotoxic agents can flood the brain remains to be clearly established.
Spiritualists have sometimes seen scientific explanations of NDE's as dull and reductionist. However, the exploration of the mind-brain interface is one of the most exciting adventures which humans have ever undertaken. The real reductionism lies in attempts to draw a mystical shroud over the NDE, and to belittle the substantial evidence in favour of an scientific explanation.

#14 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:47 PM

Wow, yeah... very good find...

It's amazing that such a simple combination of atoms (Ketamine) can induce such an effect on a system as complex as our brain... so bizarre...

#15 kylyssa

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 03:43 AM

Any idea what makes it such a powerful experience even for an atheist like me? I have this suspicion that if I could hit a button and make that sensation/experience happen I'd whack the button until I died of thirst. Some sort of pleasure center involvement?

Or is it maybe the association with the wonderfulness of not being dead? Though I've missed a number of dates with death, some of which occurred while I was far more conscious and while the not-being-deadness is always heady nothing compares to that nonsensical "NDE" episode.

#16 braz

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 04:05 AM

Kylyssa,

Could you please describe in detail your NDE, what triggered them, what kind of experiences/feelings you had etc?

I would really appreciate if you did, but I would totally understand if its personal.

#17 kylyssa

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 06:44 AM

At a later point I may talk about it in less general terms but we can start in general terms.
I suffered a punctured lung and a great deal of blood loss.

A relatively large time gap occurred between my last conscious recollection (as described
in my post above) and my "NDE." I lost consciousness, was found by someone who called
for help, an ambulance arrived and EMTs worked on me, my heart (which had stopped)
was restarted either en route to or at the hospital, I had emergency surgery and transfusions,
THEN quite some time later by external indicators I woke with that recollection which included
the hallucination. What I presume to be reality (the pain, weird shocky thoughts, physical
traumas, mortal terror) melded seamlessly with what I presume to be hallucination (the "NDE"
fountain, the perfect people, my Mom, the all-sensory "music," the euphoria) with just a brief
"fadeout" in the middle. It's entirely possibly and probable that the "NDE" occurred hours after
my heart was restarted but subjectively speaking it occurred directly as I was "dying."

To me, that's the unique aspect. The fact that somehow an interlude out of Alice in Wonderland
merged flawlessly with reality without me seeing the edges or even pausing to question the
weirdness of it is what intrigues me. It's especially odd considering how greatly the reality
(terror, pain, panic) contrasted with the hallucination/dream (comfort, bliss, feeling of oneness
with the universe, beauty, synesthesia, etc) world.


#18 Lazarus Long

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 02:43 PM

(kylyssa)
Any idea what makes it such a powerful experience even for an atheist like me? I have this suspicion that if I could hit a button and make that sensation/experience happen I'd whack the button until I died of thirst. Some sort of pleasure center involvement?


It is a powerful kynesthetic and emotional experience that is real but not in the sense most interpret it to be. The *physical* perspective is analogous to what some in meditation achieve during what is also known as the "Out of Body Experience".

OBE & NDE are essentially the same kind of physiological event but one is generally the result of intentional development and the other is the result of consequences. A person remains *self aware* yet incorporeal and without *physical pain* yet is emotionally sensitive and cognitively aware of an event transpiring, albeit if only in their minds.

The result is an experience that does operate in some ways on the same basis as drugs or direct neural stimulation of pleasure centers and more. Interestingly enough there is also claimed to be a risk to practitioners of OBE that feel that they can become lost in that netherworld experience as well due to its "associated feeling".

I expect that the button you describe may be around sooner than we all might like as this would tend to incapacitate more than liberate IMHO. Oh there is more than just the pleasure center getting stimulated that is why some people can remember the event and also why there is a sense of self awareness and a disjointed passage of time.

I say *disjointed* because it does not have to be linear in the fashion we normally are aware of but can jump around as you describe and also encompass the perception of long periods that are really only brief moments or the reverse.

This is why some get the impression that they are seeing future events while in this state and others are also able to better recall past events because they are *reliving the moment* rather than operatively recalling it.

OBE in those that claim to practice can be the result of years and years of disciplined meditation and focused study but there are others that claim to experience through the use of hallucinogenics like LSD, Mescaline etc. In fact most shamanistic cultures throughout the world use some kind of hallucinogen to facilitate their OBE and what is happening is not the same as the event en toto but does trigger some of its aspects pharmacologically.

The experience you describe is also one of the enticements of many to partake of hallucinogens even though they suffer the severe side effects of what are essentially toxic byproducts. During those states however the mind can accomplish things that it is unable to do in normal function and that is why a scientist like Crick, that now admits he was high on LSD when he recognized the structure of DNA, can achieve a significant *out of the box* analysis.

That is not meant to advocate the behavior. Crick did not go around high all the time and rarely used the drug before or since but he was able to connect the dots on the complex pattern of the molecular architecture of something he was closely scrutinizing during that time period in a very disciplined manner.

But beware, for every example like Crick there are thousands that simply waste away.

#19 braz

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 05:57 AM

At a later point I may talk about it in less general terms but we can start in general terms.
I suffered a punctured lung and a great deal of blood loss. 

A relatively large time gap occurred between my last conscious recollection (as described
in my post above) and my "NDE."  I lost consciousness, was found by someone who called
for help, an ambulance arrived and EMTs worked on me, my heart (which had stopped)
was restarted either en route to or at the hospital, I had emergency surgery and transfusions,
THEN quite some time later by external indicators I woke with that recollection which included
the hallucination.  What I presume to be reality (the pain, weird shocky thoughts, physical
traumas, mortal terror) melded seamlessly with what I presume to be hallucination (the "NDE"
fountain, the perfect people, my Mom, the all-sensory "music," the euphoria) with just a brief
"fadeout" in the middle.  It's entirely possibly and probable that the "NDE" occurred hours after
my heart was restarted but subjectively speaking it occurred directly as I was "dying."   

To me, that's the unique aspect.  The fact that somehow an interlude out of Alice in Wonderland
merged flawlessly with reality without me seeing the edges or even pausing to question the
weirdness of it is what intrigues me.  It's especially odd considering how greatly the reality
(terror, pain, panic) contrasted with the hallucination/dream (comfort, bliss, feeling of oneness
with the universe, beauty, synesthesia, etc) world.


Wow, congragulations of making it out of that mess...

Anyway, could you clarify when exactly you experienced NDE? Was it after you regained your full consciousness and had a recollection of it during your "lights-out" state, or did it seem to you first regained consciousness and then started NDE? Were you fully aware during the NDE? Did it seem like a dream-like state and you being just a character, or were you fully conscious?

Also, not to sound theistic, but how are you exactly sure that your NDE was merely a hallucination and not a supernatural occurance?

#20 kylyssa

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 04:06 PM

Anyway, could you clarify when exactly you experienced NDE?  Was it after
you regained your full consciousness and had a recollection of it during your "lights-out"
state, or did it seem to you first regained consciousness and then started NDE?


It's difficult to pin down but here's the subjective chronology:
First there was panic and etc. with realization of imminent death. Then I experienced a
spiral towards unconsciousness with much the same markers as simply passing out -
roaring sound, tunnel vision, etc. There was an eye-blink of falling into darkness immediately
followed by a feeling that something had been lifted off me (including pain and fear) and
I felt like I floated out through the top of my head. Then light streamed back onto (into?
I was definitely bodiless or possessed of some completely permeable body) me from above.
I could "feel" wind which seemed to be substance rushing through me as I flew (under my
own control) very, very fast through a long tunnel which was not dark (think more on the
lines of the wormhole CGI used in the Stargate SG1 series) but held a much more bright
light at it's termination. As I exited the tunnel or more accurately it merged into something
different the light appeared to be coming from everywhere as if matter and energy were
both visible as light energy and I was inside a great deal of both and the greatest intensity
was coming from a fountain. I instinctively plunged into it. The fountain was not necessarily
of water but of some energy or substance that also flowed right through me. I was not alone
in the fountain, there were other people in untold numbers - possibly billions - who were young
and old but all posessed of perfect young bodies. I knew their joys and sorrows but all were
feeling great joy at that point in time. All played with abandon in the fountain. Music penetrated
my body (I have always been exquisitely sensitive to music) and my mind that was indescribable.
It was all music ever played and all music ever to be played throughout time lived in that infinite
zone. The music surged and pushed me towards one of these perfect people. It was my Mother
in perfect, youthful, ageless form. She held me gently and I knew she wanted me to close my
eyes and rest. I did. With no feeling of time having passed between closing my eyes in my
Mother's arms and waking, I woke with what felt like hot lead sucking in and out of my lungs.
This was my actual waking many hours after the assault.

Subjectively the whole experience occurred all at once.


Were you fully aware during the NDE? Did it seem like a dream-like state and you
being just a character, or were you fully conscious?


I was fully conscious (whatever that may mean) and in control of my actions but I usually am in
control of my actions in dreams anyway. It departed from a regular dream in that I was not in
control of my environment and the feeling of reality was intense. However, I did not feel like I was
"on earth," I felt like I was between the substance of the universe.



Also, not to sound theistic, but how are you exactly sure that your NDE was merely
a hallucination and not a supernatural occurance?


My Mother was living at the time and shared no memory of the event. She was not even aware of
the assault. The "Mother" in the dream was to every detail of scent, comfort, and essence identical
to my real Mother. I assume I was "playing a recording" of my Mother to soothe myself. I remember
crying out for my Mother when I was damaged and still conscious. My interior fantasy retreat
required a Mom so I created one in some deep childhood region of my brain.

Additionally, I have a seizure disorder and have experienced hallucinations so I'm familiar with how
the mind can produce bizarre things under unusual circumstances. If I were to drop some acid (no
chance in nonexistant hell of this but that's another story) and the walls began to breathe I wouldn't
think afterwards that the walls had actually been breathing but that my mind reacted to the LSD in
that way. A crude example, I know but a relevant one - the brain is a soft, squishy, and delicate
biological device that the slightest tinkering with can produce strange effects. If a "soul" were behind
who we are how could a little dose of chemicals here or there change it so dramatically?


#21 Lazarus Long

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 03:51 AM

I had meant to put this article in the thread about the brain but perhaps it is better here. The real problem I see is that while these explanations are true, that "truth" may be a lot less emotionally satisfactory to people that A, do not understand them and B, they do not fit into their meme set or their desire for a greater than self, motivational source.


Posted Image Posted Image

Out-of-Body Experience? Your Brain Is to Blame
By SANDRA BLAKESLEE
Published: October 3, 2006

They are eerie sensations, more common than one might think: A man describes feeling a shadowy figure standing behind him, then turning around to find no one there. A woman feels herself leaving her body and floating in space, looking down on her corporeal self.

Such experiences are often attributed by those who have them to paranormal forces. But according to recent work by neuroscientists, they can be induced by delivering mild electric current to specific spots in the brain. In one woman, for example, a zap to a brain region called the angular gyrus resulted in a sensation that she was hanging from the ceiling, looking down at her body. In another woman, electrical current delivered to the angular gyrus produced an uncanny feeling that someone was behind her, intent on interfering with her actions.

The two women were being evaluated for epilepsy surgery at University Hospital in Geneva, where doctors implanted dozens of electrodes into their brains to pinpoint the abnormal tissue causing the seizures and to identify adjacent areas involved in language, hearing or other essential functions that should be avoided in the surgery. As each electrode was activated, stimulating a different patch of brain tissue, the patient was asked to say what she was experiencing.

Dr. Olaf Blanke, a neurologist at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne in Switzerland who carried out the procedures, said that the women had normal psychiatric histories and that they were stunned by the bizarre nature of their experiences.

The Sept. 21 issue of Nature magazine includes an account by Dr. Blanke and his colleagues of the woman who sensed a shadow person behind her. They described the out-of-body experiences in the February 2004 issue of the journal Brain.

There is nothing mystical about these ghostly experiences, said Peter Brugger, a neuroscientist at University Hospital in Zurich, who was not involved in the experiments but is an expert on phantom limbs, the sensation of still feeling a limb that has been amputated, and other mind-bending phenomena.

“The research shows that the self can be detached from the body and can live a phantom existence on its own, as in an out-of-body experience, or it can be felt outside of personal space, as in a sense of a presence,” Dr. Brugger said.

Scientists have gained new understanding of these odd bodily sensations as they have learned more about how the brain works, Dr. Blanke said. For example, researchers have discovered that some areas of the brain combine information from several senses. Vision, hearing and touch are initially processed in the primary sensory regions. But then they flow together, like tributaries into a river, to create the wholeness of a person’s perceptions. A dog is visually recognized far more quickly if it is simultaneously accompanied by the sound of its bark.

These multisensory processing regions also build up perceptions of the body as it moves through the world, Dr. Blanke said. Sensors in the skin provide information about pressure, pain, heat, cold and similar sensations. Sensors in the joints, tendons and bones tell the brain where the body is positioned in space. Sensors in the ears track the sense of balance. And sensors in the internal organs, including the heart, liver and intestines, provide a readout of a person’s emotional state.

Real-time information from the body, the space around the body and the subjective feelings from the body are also represented in multisensory regions, Dr. Blanke said. And if these regions are directly simulated by an electric current, as in the cases of the two women he studied, the integrity of the sense of body can be altered.

As an example, Dr. Blanke described the case of a 22-year-old student who had electrodes implanted into the left side of her brain in 2004.

“We were checking language areas,” Dr. Blanke said, when the woman turned her head to the right. That made no sense, he said, because the electrode was nowhere near areas involved in the control of movement. Instead, the current was stimulating a multisensory area called the angular gyrus.

Dr. Blanke applied the current again. Again, the woman turned her head to the right. “Why are you doing this?” he asked.

The woman replied that she had a weird sensation that another person was lying beneath her on the bed. The figure, she said, felt like a “shadow” that did not speak or move; it was young, more like a man than a woman, and it wanted to interfere with her. When Dr. Blanke turned off the current, the woman stopped looking to the right, and said the strange presence had gone away. Each time he reapplied the current, she once again turned her head to try to see the shadow figure.

When the woman sat up, leaned forward and hugged her knees, she said that she felt as if the shadow man was also sitting and that he was clasping her in his arms. She said it felt unpleasant. When she held a card in her right hand, she reported that the shadow figure tried to take it from her. “He doesn’t want me to read,” she said.

Because the presence closely mimicked the patient’s body posture and position, Dr. Blanke concluded that the patient was experiencing an unusual perception of her own body, as a double. But for reasons that scientists have not been able to explain, he said, she did not recognize that it was her own body she was sensing.

The feeling of a shadowy presence can occur without electrical stimulation to the brain, Dr. Brugger said. It has been described by people who undergo sensory deprivation, as in mountaineers trekking at high altitude or sailors crossing the ocean alone, and by people who have suffered minor strokes or other disruptions in blood flow to the brain.

Six years ago, another of Dr. Blanke’s patients underwent brain stimulation to a different multisensory area, the angular gyrus, which blends vision with the body sense. The patient experienced a complete out-of-body experience.

When the current flowed, she said: “I am at the ceiling. I am looking down at my legs.”

When the current ceased, she said: “I’m back on the table now. What happened?”

Further applications of the current returned the woman to the ceiling, causing her to feel as if she were outside of her body, floating, her legs dangling below her. When she closed her eyes, she had the sensation of doing sit-ups, with her upper body approaching her legs. Because the woman’s felt position in space and her actual position in space did not match, her mind cast about for the best way to turn her confusion into a coherent experience, Dr. Blanke said. She concluded that she must be floating up and away while looking downward.

Some schizophrenics, Dr. Blanke said, experience paranoid delusions and the sense that someone is following them. They also sometimes confuse their own actions with the actions of other people. While the cause of these symptoms is not known, he said, multisensory processing areas may be involved.

When otherwise normal people experience bodily delusions, Dr. Blanke said, they are often flummoxed. The felt sensation of the body is so seamless, so familiar, that people do not realize it is a creation of the brain, even when something goes wrong and the brain is perturbed.

Yet the sense of body integrity is rather easily duped, Dr. Blanke said.

And while it may be tempting to invoke the supernatural when this body sense goes awry, he said the true explanation is a very natural one, the brain’s attempt to make sense of conflicting information.


Related
Web Links
Induction of an Illusory Shadow Person (Nature)
Out-of-body Experience and Autoscopy of Neurological Origin (Brain)

#22 kylyssa

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 04:42 AM

That's cool!

#23 braz

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 11:42 PM

Judging from your response, it does seem like your NDE was a product of the brain's imagination. WOot, no bearded guy in heaven =)

Thanks for the very interesting info. Hope you won't experience anything of this sort ever again [thumb]

#24 Ghostrider

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 08:05 AM

The study seems somewhat weak because the patients were unconscious. In the most interesting near-death experience, you are unconscious. One of the things we know about brain function in unconsciousness is that you cannot create images and if you do, you cannot remember them ... But, yet, after one of these experiences (a NDE), you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact.

#25 biknut

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 05:19 AM

I heard a couple of different research scientists on the radio lately talking about NDE. Both of them have interviewed hundreds of people over the years that had NDE . Both scientists said similar things that their research had revealed.

Stuff like tunnel of light.
Saw dead relatives.
Entire life relived.
Felt like they were going home.
Most people say it wasn't a religious experience.
The experience was similar no matter what back ground, or part of the world.

It was pointed out that about 10 seconds after your heart stops beating you flat line. After that no thoughts can be going on in your head, but

people have been revived long after they flat lined that were able to accurately describe things happening during that time period. Like where personal items were placed in the room after they died, and conversations doctors and nurses had. Even serial numbers of machines used by the doctors. One guy saw a shoe that was on the roof top of the hospital.

Both researchers were doctors and both came to the conclusion that NDE were real and not chemical reactions of a dying brain.

http://www.nderf.org/

http://www.lifeafterlife.com/

#26 Luna

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 02:43 PM

Seems to me like they wanted to believe in NDE.
I seen other researchs that said the persons noticed things which "seemed" to be out of vision, but he could have seen them.

Also another one said that after heart attack, some sensors still work which can give images and sounds and be recoreded.

And btw..

"One of the things we know about brain function in unconsciousness is that you cannot create images and if you do, you cannot remember them ... But, yet, after one of these experiences (a NDE), you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."

That's not quite true.
As dreams can be remembered, those stuff can be too.
Also many people who were in coma for years reported that they could hear and sometimes see people talking to them for years but couldn't response.

One guy was saved because he heard he was going to be pulled out and managed to start crying.
Few years later I think he woke completely.

#27 Luna

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 02:51 PM

And I forgot, if any researcher which said something is true was right, should we believe Dick Bierman and Dean Radin?

Ohhhh! the psychics are among us! let's wear anti-telepathy helmets..
Seriously..

Some researchs just do those researchs with hope to find something and only find it cause they are looking for it.

Read Dick's telephone telepathy research? it found out telephone telepathy, the ability to know who is calling you is REAL.

And people do it better if the callers are good friends, family relatives.
Also the power is stronger at some hours of the day.

Well if someone calls at 16:00, it's 99% my mother's friend, inviting her for a walk.
Wow, I'm a psychic :/

#28 Luna

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 08:34 AM

http://www.youtube.c...related&search=

#29 Ghostrider

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 07:38 PM

Careful, Penn and Teller are not anti-aging advocates. I do not mean to advocate censorship, but if you saw their anti-aging hoaxes episode where they attack (deservedly so) quack supplements, they end the episode by advocating that death due to old age is something that should be accepted. They do not like the idea of immortality.

Also, a lot of NDEs are ambiguous and might be dreams or something happening inside the mind. However, it is this stuff: "Even serial numbers of machines used by the doctors. One guy saw a shoe that was on the roof top of the hospital." that cannot be so easily explained. *If* that stuff really did happen, I think that would be pretty conclusive evidence for out-of-body consciousness / perception.

I am not advocating NDEs are real, I just do not see why we have to close the door of possibility without sufficient proof.

#30 Luna

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 08:07 PM

Well if it was real, OBE are quite common and unlike NDE, can be done easily.
Some of the researchers *cough* Dick Bierman *cough* Dean Radin *cough* would just ask "Ok, go OBE and read me the note."




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