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Global Warming - The Little Known Underlying Cause


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#91 biknut

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 06:25 PM

I am a lot older than many people here so I can remember when the Florida coast was hundreds of feet father out. In fact when I free dive well over a thousand feet  off the Palm Beach shore one of my favorite weird sites is to chase skates along the broken pieces of the original US highway 1 that is now at the bottom of about 20 feet of ocean. Oh yeah I forgot to mention that the highway was on the maps and in use 60 years ago.


Lazarus, are you certain this is not because of subsidence. New Orleans is sinking into the ocean too. I'm not aware of Padre Island or Galveston to be loosing shore line. Maybe they are but I'm not aware of it happening. Even if it is, it's not necessarily caused by man.

Still it does make since that man probably has some effect on the climate. If we can effect it one way, then we can probably effect it the other. Are we at the point where we want to start playing mother nature and terra form the planet? Isn't that what we're really talking about.

#92 william7

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 06:26 PM

Yeah I saw that news article. I don't really question that there is climate change. There's always climate change. What I question is that it's caused by man, however recommendations like these make a lot of since to me.

Replace the 20-year-old fridge with an energy-saver model. 3,000 pounds.

Send out one fewer 30-gallon bag of garbage per week. 300 pounds.

Leave the car at home two days per week. 1,590 pounds.

Recycle cans, bottles, plastic, cardboard and newspapers. 850 pounds.

Switch two standard light bulbs to fluorescents. 1,000 pounds

Replace the current shower head with a low-flow model. 300 pounds.

Turn the thermostat down two degrees for one year. 500 pounds

Cut vehicle fuel use by 10 gallons in 2003. 200 pounds

Switch from hot to warm or cold water for laundry. 600 pounds

Most of these things don't cost very much to implement so peoples lives won't be impacted in a negitive way. I might even go a little farther with some of them. I think more laws should be enacted to get more people to ride motorcycles. Even large motorcycles can get 60 to 70 mpg. The commie Democrats love to enact tax incentives. Where are they?

This ones not as painless though. When I first heard about it I didn't believe it, but it turned out to be true.

Last year, in 2006 a federal law was passed forcing air conditioning manufactures to up the efficiency of residential condensing units to 13 seer. This is proving to be very expensive for my customers because most people don't have the indoor equipment to work with these new units so the cost of installation is more than twice what it would have been before this law went into effect. Just the condensing unit alone is a $1000 more than a 2005 unit. In 2005 I could replace your condensing unit for under $2000 in most cases and get you up and running. Now because of the need to replace the inside equipment in almost all cases, and because of the fact that the new high efficient equipment costs more than the old equipment, it costs people $5000 to $7000 to get a/c back online. These are just my reasonable charges. Many crooks charge more than twice this much. There is some tax relief but it doesn't help enough. Most people don't even know about this yet. Did you? Do you care? You will when it happens to you.

How about putting a vegan diet, and "simplicity of lifestyle" kibbutz living according to the Scriptures, in that list too?

#93 Lazarus Long

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 06:34 PM

A question I sometimes think of when pondering global warming.... Is it a bad thing? No one ever seems to ask that question, everyone just seems to assume that it is. It seems like more of the same status quo bias to me.


Actually a lot of people ask that question and on balance it is answered as yes but like most things there will be some winners even if there are a LOT of losers.

The real problem is our inadequate/ incomplete understanding of all of the ecological factors. If Milankovitch's theory is correct, then we are more or less at the end of an interglacial as it is, so perhaps it is a good thing that we are warming things up a bit. Unless of course we'd prefer to live in an ice age. shifty.jpg (Note: I don't necessarily believe this last statement I made. I was just using it to demonstrate how a range of arguments can be made because of the inadequate knowledge base we are working with.)


The problem with this perspective is two fold:

Because we have not accurately quantified the human component to the equation we see the model resolve itself in two very distinctly different results.

The first possibility is that due to human impact the rate of warming is drastically faster than is normal resulting in a prolonged period of super storms, catastrophic drought and an inability to adapt to drastically shifting destabilized climate conditions across the whole globe to the largest dependent species on climate there is; us.

The second is that due to rapid warming and saturation of the atmosphere while we have not fully exited the conditions that define the ice age could mean a catastrophic return to a sustained period of glaciation. One that can have a similar, or even worse impact than the last *mini Ice Age* did: plague, famine,, 100 years war etc.

Neither outcome is definite, both have a remarkable level of probability associated with them given our admittedly limited knowledge of all the contributory phenomena and also most scenarios for a positive swing somewhere still show catastrophic impacts across large swaths of the world.

There are just not too many ways to lose as much as 15% of our most currently populated land areas at the same time as catastrophically disrupting food production, without drastic consequences socially. Remember that up to 85% of the world's population still lives at or near sea level. The trans-location of a minimum of a billion or so people over a few decades when properly conducted is possible but what is more likely will resemble and dwarf the aftermath of Katrina.

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#94 eternaltraveler

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 06:34 PM

I don't view climate change as having much impact to our civilization at all. Humans successfully thrive in all environments on earth.

Global warming is not going to change the climate to a great enough degree to be outside of the parameters where humans already successfully live.

What it is going to do is change a few certain environments where humans presently successfully live to be more like other environments where humans presently successfully live. Big deal. :))

If global warming did result in the melting of the arctic ice-cap sea levels will not rise to any appreciable degree, as Jay has already mentioned the arctic icecap rests in water, and thus already displaces the same amount of water it would as liquid.

If the Antarctic ice cap melts (highly unlikely) sea levels would rise by about 200 feet. This rise would be extremely slow (even if the average temperature in Antarctica were 30 degrees C it would still take thousands of years to melt that much ice). Cities would not suddenly find themselves underwater, they could take tens of thousands of years to move gradually inland, nothing one needs to actively worry about. Yes we would loose a lot of land in low lying areas, however that would be made up for by the fact that we would gain an entire continent (Antarctica). Also in the multi-millennia time scale we would be dealing with if the only land we have is restricted to earth then we deserve to drown :))

If you're worried about an increase of severe weather like hurricanes, don't. There are one of two pragmatic strategies you can use in construction in areas where such severe weather can strike.

1. Don't build your house out of crap. Plenty of construction can stand up to hurricanes just fine.

2. Build your house out of the cheapest materials you can and take shelter elsewhere. When your construction is destroyed it doesn't cost much to start over.

I've been in two hurricanes. We humans already have devised acceptable countermeasures to deal with them even if they aren't as widely implemented as they should be.

As far as drought, plague, famine and the like. Humans already can grow foodstuffs in deserts and in mountains, and at sea. If you think our fertile cropland is going to be useless

a) it is anyway as we're building on top of it

b)somewhere else is going to become fertile cropland, probably not where we presently like to build a lot as we generally really like to build on the most fertile areas.

c)take a lesson from the Israelis and grow crops in the desert.


So, no Laz, I am not a short sighted immortalist. I have simply analyzed this particular problem according to my own judgment, and determined that it doesn't pose much of a problem :))

#95 eternaltraveler

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 06:41 PM

i would however like to hear how others expect globabl warming to be such a terrible thing rather than simply assuming that it will be a terrible thing.

#96 eternaltraveler

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 06:41 PM

also, I'm plenty convinced that it does exist and humans are presently causing it.

#97 Lazarus Long

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 07:08 PM

(elrond)
If you're worried about an increase of severe weather like hurricanes, don't. There are one of two pragmatic strategies you can use in construction in areas where such severe weather can strike.

1. Don't build your house out of crap. Plenty of construction can stand up to hurricanes just fine.

2. Build your house out of the cheapest materials you can and take shelter elsewhere. When your construction is destroyed it doesn't cost much to start over.

I've been in two hurricanes. We humans already have devised acceptable countermeasures to deal with them even if they aren't as widely implemented as they should be.

As far as drought, plague, famine and the like. Humans already can grow foodstuffs in deserts and in mountains, and at sea. If you think our fertile cropland is going to be useless

a) it is anyway as we're building on top of it

b)somewhere else is going to become fertile cropland, probably not where we presently like to build a lot as we generally really like to build on the most fertile areas.

c)take a lesson from the Israelis and grow crops in the desert.


An interesting set of options elrond so let's address them one at time. Oh and BTW I have been positioning myself to be a winner in this mess but I am also interested in seeing the impacts minimized rather than simply exploited.

I live 750+ feet above sea level in a region that can redevelop agriculture. I maintain independent power production for my homestead and I am already in possession of a small fleet of HPV's and alternative fuel sources. So I suggest that no one should think in a one sided manner on this but what also needs to be understood are the real time consequences to most people that simply are not, and never will be adequately prepared and what will happen to those of us that are when the survivors decide to take what they are desperate for.

Oh did I mention potable water?

I control my own supply. How long will a city of millions survive without it?

You can look at Baghdad for examples of a broken infrastructure and the aftermath.


(Elrond)
If you're worried about an increase of severe weather like hurricanes, don't. There are one of two pragmatic strategies you can use in construction in areas where such severe weather can strike.


I would worry more about storms striking large metropoli and many regions of the world that do not consider themselves at risk like Long Island with a population of over 4 million, which are not prepared at all. It is only one of too many such examples now.

No one is prepared for tens of thousands of dead and maybe hundreds of thousands of injured from a Cat 5 strike in the NE. They are not even currently able to properly evacuate the island and won't be for many years to come because growth is exceeding current planning for a response ability.

Another more important and subtle problem will be when the Gulf Stream shifts south after the cold water currents that drive it out of arctic waters end and the European growing season is actually drastically shortened, resulting in a catastrophic reduction of European food production.

Well I guess many Europeans can migrate to Africa after that region depopulates considerably due to drought and disease even worse than they currently experience; not to mention the unending internecine strife.

1. Don't build your house out of crap. Plenty of construction can stand up to hurricanes just fine.


Yes and plenty of excellent construction might even survive a period underwater during a serious surge but few of the inhabitants foolish enough to be in them will.

A real serious Cat 5 related surge at high tide is equivalent to a violent tsunami, a brick sh*t house is still usually little more than a foundation mark on a coastal plain afterward.

2. Build your house out of the cheapest materials you can and take shelter elsewhere. When your construction is destroyed it doesn't cost much to start over.


There is more merit in this suggestion than many realize but I will add that it requires a level of social mobility that still very few people have; not to mention a level of social cooperation that humans seem unwilling to commit to, plan around or even tolerate in the form of cultural competition.

I've been in two hurricanes. We humans already have devised acceptable countermeasures to deal with them even if they aren't as widely implemented as they should be.


I have too, once as part of the rescue and relief groups bringing aid into the Virgin Islands and picking up the pieces after Hurricane Hugo (not to mention just living through a few more). I have seen some pretty impressive massive destruction close up but again this is just not only about hurricanes.

Just wait till the tornadoes are a far more common occurrence just about everywhere in tornado alley, rather than one region at a time. Did you know there was a rare tornado in England near London I believe not that long ago last fall?

As far as drought, plague, famine and the like. Humans already can grow foodstuffs in deserts and in mountains, and at sea. If you think our fertile cropland is going to be useless

a) it is anyway as we're building on top of it

b)somewhere else is going to become fertile cropland, probably not where we presently like to build a lot as we generally really like to build on the most fertile areas.


Again, more and growing numbers of people on less land, with less arable land to use, in different regions of the world than have growing capacity at the moment is a formula for the catastrophic dislocation of very large groups of people. BTW are you ready to grow food?

I have advocated a return to the sea for sometime and it is a little more likely and possible than off world migration in a timely manner but it is only slightly less problematic technologically and more importantly socially. Many of these things are already happening but too little and too late if the rate of change begins to exceed our capacity as a species to respond fast enough.

c)take a lesson from the Israelis and grow crops in the desert.


Are you ready to farm the desert?

Don't be so quick to depend on a supply side economy when things get worse since the infrastructure that supports it (not simply the global economy) will be one of the first casualties after a sufficient number of impacts occur simultaneously across the globe. This kind of climate change indicates that kind of sequence of events is more likely, rather than not. It almost happened post 9/11 and post Katrina and these were small time hits by comparison to what we are really talking about. Anyway no significant preparations and changes have been implemented yet from what was learned despite all the *expert reports*.

#98 DJS

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 07:20 PM

Good stuff guys, very imformative. [thumb]

#99 eternaltraveler

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 07:49 PM

I live above 750 feet above sea level in a region that can redevelop agriculture, I maintain independent power production for my homestead and I am already in possession of a small fleet of HPV's and alternative fuel sources. So I suggest that no one should think in a one sided manner on this but what also needs to be understood are the real time consequences to most people that are simply not, and never will be adequately prepared and what will happen to those of us that are when the survivors decide to take what they are desperate for.


My house is 9500 feet above sea level in colorado, although I presently live in the caribbean in Grenada. The building from which I am typing this message was hit by hurricane Ivan in 2004 (a cat. 5 storm, though it was perhaps a 4 at the time), the eye passed directly overhead. There was certainly some degree of damage but it was repaired rather quickly (I'm reffering to the school's buildings, the rest of Grenada is just now finishing it's repairs).

In my home in Colorado it is common in the fall for the wind to be over 120 miles an hour for extended periods (at a weather station near my house it peaked around 140 a year or so back), which granted doesn't have the same force as wind at sea level of the same velocity, but it is still rather strong. I have more than a year's worth of food, a propane powered generator, and a wood burning stove for heating (which I don't presently use). Rather than HPVs my buddy down the street keeps horses :))

If you are worried about other survivors of a major disaster I suggest you keep firearms (Gilpin Co. in colorado is a very defensible position, and most people there are reasonably prepared for unfavorable conditions)

#100 eternaltraveler

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 07:53 PM

I also don't at all think Global warming would cause those "unfavorable conditions" I reffered too. It's just best to be prepared for whatever does cause it.

#101 biknut

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 08:08 PM

I'm not as worried about the effects of the weather as I am about the effects of activists that want to use the situation for manipulation. This is a bigger issue than Global Warming to me.

I like the fact that Bush has slammed the door on the activists. Lord help us if Gore had been elected.

#102 eternaltraveler

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:16 PM

I like the fact that Bush has slammed the door on the activists.


Bush is a religious idiot who only does beneficial things by accident.

#103 biknut

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:33 PM

Bush is a religious idiot who only does beneficial things by accident.


That may be true, but I wish I was so lucky. I'd rather be lucky than good.

Still for the last 6 years it's been lucky our economy has been reasonably good. It's been lucky that there have been no terrorist attacks in this country. It's been lucky my taxes have been reduced.

If a Democrat President was in office we'd be hearing about it everyday in the news, but since it's a republican it's just lucky.

#104 DJS

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 08:33 PM

I want to print a shirt up that says "I love global warming". [lol]

Saying it's been a mild winter so far would be putting it mildly. ;)

I went out earlier in shorts and a t-shirt. In about an hour I am having friends over for a back yard BBQ. It's January sixth and I'm cooking burgers on the grill and wearing shorts! Maybe my friend should think about opening up his pool early. That would be excellent - pool parties in January!

It reached 70F in central park today.

#105 william7

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 12:55 PM

Clock ticks nearer to doom

Thu, January 18, 2007

Nuclear and climate change dangers pose a growing global threat, scientists warn.

By AP

LONDON -- The world is edging closer to nuclear or environmental apocalypse, a group of prominent scientists warned as it pushed the hand of its symbolic Doomsday Clock closer to midnight.

The clock, which was set two minutes forward to 11:55, represents the likelihood of a global cataclysm. Its ticks have given the clock's keepers a chance to speak out on the dangers they see threatening Earth.

It was the fourth time since the Soviet collapse in 1991 that the clock ticked forward amid fears over what the scientists describe as "a second nuclear age," prompted by standoffs with Iran and North Korea. But urgent warnings of climate change also played a role.

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, which sets the clock, was founded in 1945 as a news-letter distributed among nuclear physicists concerned about nuclear war, and midnight originally symbolized a widespread nuclear conflict. The bulletin has grown into an organization focused more generally on manmade threats to civilization.

"The dangers posed by climate change are nearly as dire as those posed by nuclear weapons," said Kennette Benedict, director of the bulletin.

Stephen Hawking, the renowned astrophysicist, said global warming has eclipsed other threats to the planet. "Terror only kills hundreds or thousands," he said. "Global warming could kill millions. We should have a war on global warming rather than . . . terror."

This is the first time the group explicitly addressed climate change dangers.

"We are transforming, even ravaging, the entire biosphere. These environmentally driven threats -- threats without enemies -- should loom as large as did the East-West divide during the Cold War era," said Martin Rees, president of the Royal Society, Britain's academy of science. "Unless they rise higher on international agendas, remedial action may come too late."

http://lfpress.ca/ne...400010-sun.html

#106 biknut

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 08:25 AM

Well here we go again.

http://www.jamesspan...ordpress/?p=650

“The Weather Channel” Mess
January 18, 2007, 5:45 pm | James Spann | Op/Ed

Well, well. Some “climate expert” on “The Weather Channel” wants to take away AMS certification from those of us who believe the recent “global warming” is a natural process. So much for “tolerance”, huh?
I have been in operational meteorology since 1978, and I know dozens and dozens of broadcast meteorologists all over the country. Our big job: look at a large volume of raw data and come up with a public weather forecast for the next seven days. I do not know of a single TV meteorologist who buys into the man-made global warming hype. I know there must be a few out there, but I can’t find them. Here are the basic facts you need to know:
*Billions of dollars of grant money is flowing into the pockets of those on the man-made global warming bandwagon. No man-made global warming, the money dries up. This is big money, make no mistake about it. Always follow the money trail and it tells a story. Even the lady at “The Weather Channel” probably gets paid good money for a prime time show on climate change. No man-made global warming, no show, and no salary. Nothing wrong with making money at all, but when money becomes the motivation for a scientific conclusion, then we have a problem. For many, global warming is a big cash grab.
*The climate of this planet has been changing since God put the planet here. It will always change, and the warming in the last 10 years is not much difference than the warming we saw in the 1930s and other decades. And, lets not forget we are at the end of the ice age in which ice covered most of North America and Northern Europe.
If you don’t like to listen to me, find another meteorologist with no tie to grant money for research on the subject. I would not listen to anyone that is a politician, a journalist, or someone in science who is generating revenue from this issue.
In fact, I encourage you to listen to WeatherBrains episode number 12, featuring Alabama State Climatologist John Christy, and WeatherBrains episode number 17, featuring Dr. William Gray of Colorado State University, one of the most brilliant minds in our science.
WeatherBrains, by the way, is our weekly 30 minute netcast.
I have nothing against “The Weather Channel”, but they have crossed the line into a political and cultural region where I simply won’t go.

#107 biknut

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 07:41 AM

"Global warming scaremongers jumped on the devastation of Hurricane Katrina and the busy 2005 Atlantic hurricane season and went on to predict that 2006 would be a potentially devastating year of tropical cyclones in the Atlantic Ocean.

As it was, not one single hurricane made landfall in the U.S.

If forecasters can't reliably tell us what will happen in two to three months from now, why would anyone trust that they know what will happen with the weather in 50 or 100 years from now and let them tell us how to live our lives accordingly?

This is all about Big Brother do-gooders trying to control how you live your life, and stripping away the freedoms and liberties of people to live their lives as they see fit, engage in commerce and raise their families".

This means mainly Democrats.

http://www.wnd.com/n...RTICLE_ID=53636

It's kind of funny that a lot of people are sooo worried that Bush's policies are taking away their freedom, but when leftists try to take it away they can't seem to see it, or they think it's ok because it must be the truth. Sucka's

Sir Richard Branson is to invest $3billion (£1.6bn) to fight global warming.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/5368194.stm

Now how much did Exxon spend? A few measly million.

#108 biknut

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 05:29 PM

Russian academic says CO2 not to blame for global warming

ST. PETERSBURG, January 15 (RIA Novosti) - Rising levels of carbon dioxide and other gases emitted through human activities, believed by scientists to trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere, are an effect rather than the cause of global warming, a prominent Russian scientist said Monday.

Habibullo Abdusamatov, head of the space research laboratory at the St. Petersburg-based Pulkovo Observatory, said global warming stems from an increase in the sun's activity. His view contradicts the international scientific consensus that climate change is attributable to the emission of greenhouse gases generated by industrial activities, such as the burning of fossil fuels and deforestation.

"Global warming results not from the emission of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, but from an unusually high level of solar radiation and a lengthy - almost throughout the last century - growth in its intensity," Abdusamatov told RIA Novosti in an interview.

"It is no secret that when they go up, temperatures in the world's oceans trigger the emission of large amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. So the common view that man's industrial activity is a deciding factor in global warming has emerged from a misinterpretation of cause and effect relations."

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a UN panel of thousands of international scientists, widely regarded as an authority on climate change issues, established a consensus many years ago that most of the warming experienced over the last half-century has been attributable to human activities.

However, scientists acknowledge that rises in temperatures can potentially cause massive increases of greenhouse gases due to various natural positive feedback mechanisms, for example the methane released by melting permafrost, ocean algae's reduced capacity to absorb carbon at higher water temperatures, and the carbon released by trees when forests dry up.

Abdusamatov, a doctor of mathematics and physics, is one of a small number of scientists around the world who continue to contest the view of the IPCC, the national science academies of the G8 nations, and other prominent scientific bodies.

He said an examination of ice cores from wells over three kilometers (1.5 miles) deep in Greenland and the Antarctic indicates that the Earth experienced periods of global warming even before the industrial age (which began two hundred years ago).

Climate scientists have used information in ice cores, which contain air samples trapped by snow falling hundreds of thousands of years ago, providing an ancient record of the atmosphere's makeup, to establish that throughout the numerous glacial and interglacial periods on record, temperatures have closely tracked global CO2 concentrations.

The fact that background atmospheric CO2 levels, shown for example by the famous Keeling curve, displaying precise measurements going back to 1958, are now known to be well above concentrations experienced in hundreds of millennia, as displayed by the ice cores, is considered by most of the scientific community as incontrovertible proof of mankind's influence on greenhouse gas concentrations.

However, Abdusamatov even disputed the greenhouse effect, claiming it fails to take into account the effective transmission of heat to the outer layers of atmosphere.

Scientists have known about the greenhouse effect since the 19th century. The phenomenon by which gases such as methane and CO2 warm the troposphere by absorbing some of the infra-red heat reflected by the earth's surface has the effect of a global thermostat, sustaining global temperatures within ranges that allow life on the planet to thrive.

But Abdusamatov insisted: "Ascribing ‘greenhouse' effect properties to the Earth's atmosphere is not scientifically substantiated. Heated greenhouse gases, which become lighter as a result of expansion, ascend to the atmosphere only to give the absorbed heat away."

Abdusamatov claimed that the upper layers of the world's oceans are - much to climatologists' surprise - becoming cooler, which is a clear indication that the Earth has hit its temperature ceiling already, and that solar radiation levels are falling and will eventually lead to a worldwide cold spell.

"Instead of professed global warming, the Earth will be facing a slow decrease in temperatures in 2012-2015. The gradually falling amounts of solar energy, expected to reach their bottom level by 2040, will inevitably lead to a deep freeze around 2055-2060," he said, adding that this period of global freeze will last some 50 years, after which the temperatures will go up again.

"There is no need for the Kyoto Protocol now, and it does not have to come into force until at least a hundred years from now - a global freeze will come about regardless of whether or not industrialized countries put a cap on their greenhouse gas emissions," Abdusamatov said.

The 1998 Kyoto Protocol to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, which sets greenhouse gas emission targets for the period up to 2012, entered into force two years ago following ratification by 141 countries, which together account for over 55% of the world's gas pollutions. However, most environmentalists now consider its targets inadequate to enforce the emissions cuts necessary to curb climate change.

Russia ratified the treaty in November 2004, making it legally binding. But the world's top polluter, the United States, is still reluctant to sign on for fear the treaty's emission commitments will slow down the country's economic growth.

http://en.rian.ru/ru...5/59078992.html

#109 william7

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 12:13 PM

Russian academic says CO2 not to blame for global warming

...

http://en.rian.ru/ru...5/59078992.html

Let's say this Russian scientist, Abdusamatov, is correct and there is no need of a Kyoto Protocol as he says. Should we take the chance? Is it worth the risk?

Man still needs to learn how not to consume excessive amounts of natural resources and pollute the environment anyways. We're still suffering from these things in many other ways as it is. It's not just global warming that's a problem.

Would it be such a bad thing for man to give up his economic freedom and materialistic way of life until he can learn to live in harmony with his environment and with his self? Simplicity of lifestyle with its closer cooperation amongst the human species and the natural environment will be good discipline for the psyche socially and spiritually.

It's not going to hurt you to take the kids for a bike ride down to the apple orchard and strawberry patch for a snack instead of a drive to McDonald's for a Big Mac, fries and a milkshake. In fact, you'll feel better and live longer.

(edit(Matthias): huge full quote of the preceding post replaced by "...")

Edited by Matthias, 26 January 2007 - 12:12 AM.


#110 biknut

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 05:07 PM

Let's say this Russian scientist, Abdusamatov, is correct and there is no need of a Kyoto Protocol as he says. Should we take the chance? Is it worth the risk?


elijah3, I can tell you're genuinely troubled by these problems. I wouldn't worry to much about this Russian report. Russian news is notoriously bad. Nobody knows what we should do right now, I think that is the point. It's not going to hurt to keep making our energy consuming devices more and more efficient. I'm sure we'll find out the answer in time with so many scientists working on it.

Man still needs to learn how not to consume excessive amounts of natural resources and pollute the environment anyways. We're still suffering from these things in many other ways as it is. It's not just global warming that's a problem.


You got that right. I see the biggest SUV's driving down the road all the time with only one occupant.

Would it be such a bad thing for man to give up his economic freedom and materialistic way of life until he can learn to live in harmony with his environment and with his self? Simplicity of lifestyle with its closer cooperation amongst the human species and the natural environment will be good discipline for the psyche socially and spiritually.


Personally this idea doesn't appeal to me very much, but I don't see anything stopping someone from doing it if they want to. Isn't that like those people in Pennsylvania? Shakers? You might like them.

It's not going to hurt you to take the kids for a bike ride down to the apple orchard and strawberry patch for a snack instead of a drive to McDonald's for a Big Mac, fries and a milkshake. In fact, you'll feel better and live longer.


elijah3, you must be as old as I am. I used to be able to do this when I was a kid growing up in Ohio. My friends and I could wander around the neighborhood eating apples off the backyard trees. There was a Cherry tree across the street from my house. The owner always used to call my mother and tell her to keep me out of his cherry tree. He finely gave up and told me just don't eat to many. There was a park a few blocks away. Next to it was a strawberry patch. That old man grew watermelons too. We used to sneak in there and eat the strawberry's. Sometimes he'd come out and shoot at us with a shot gun filled with salt. He was a bad shot, probably on purpose. That was in Zanesville. I went back there in 2001 after 36 years to see the old neighborhood. It's now the self proclaimed number 2 crack capitol of America. All the parks are closed at night now because of drug dealing. When I was a kid I never heard of drugs. It's really true, you can't go home.

#111 biknut

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 07:46 PM

U.N. climate panel to project wrenching change

By Alister Doyle, Environment Correspondent

OSLO (Reuters) - A U.N. climate panel will project wrenching disruptions to nature by 2100 in a report next week blaming human use of fossil fuels more clearly than ever for global warming, scientific sources said.

A draft report based on work by 2,500 scientists and due for release on February 2 in Paris, draws on research showing greenhouse gases at their highest levels for 650,000 years, fuelling a warming likely to bring more droughts, floods and rising seas.

The report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) may have some good news, however, by toning down chances of the biggest temperature and sea level rises projected in the IPCC's previous 2001 study, the sources said.

But it will also revise up its lowest projections.

"The main good news is that we have a clearer idea of what we are up against," one source said. The report will set the tone for work in extending the U.N.'s Kyoto Protocol, the main international plan for curbing global warming, beyond 2012.

The IPCC will say it is at least 90 percent sure that human activities, led by burning fossil fuels, are to blame for a warming over the past 50 years.

The draft conclusion that the link is "very likely" would mark a strengthening from "likely" in the 2001 report -- a probability of 66-90 percent.

"Quite often much of the debate is 'what level of certainty do we have around some of these phrases?'," said Robert Watson, World Bank chief scientist who chaired the previous 2001 report.

Scientists and representatives of governments will meet in Paris from January 29 to review the draft and approve a text. Watson declined to predict any of the 2007 conclusions.

TEMPERATURES UP

But the sources said the new report is likely to foresee a rise in temperatures of 2 to 4.5 Celsius (3.6-8.1 Fahrenheit) this century, with about 3 Celsius (5.4F) most likely.

The 2001 report said temperatures could rise by 1.4 to 5.8C (2.5-10.4F) by 2100 -- but did not say which end of the range was most likely. The IPCC would also narrow the 2001 forecast range of sea level rise of 9-88 cms (3.5-34.7 inches) by 2100.

Bjorn Lomborg, the Danish author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist", said the IPCC would discredit "the rhetoric of catastrophe" that he accused some governments of adopting.

"Yes, climate change is a problem but it's not this over-arching, civilization-destroying thing that the rhetoric of today is telling us," he said.

Even so, the European Union says any temperature rise above 2C (3.6F) will cause "dangerous" change, for instance with more heatwaves like in Europe in 2003 that killed 35,000 people.

"Even the minimum predicted shifts in climate for the 21st century are likely to be significant and disruptive," the U.N. Climate Secretariat says of the 2001 projection of a minimum 1.4C rise. It says the top of the range would be "catastrophic".

Temperatures have risen 0.6C (1.1 F) since 1900 and the 10 warmest years since records began in the 1850s have been since 1994. The world has warmed about 5C (9F) since the last Ice Age.

Benjamin Santer, a climate scientist at the U.S. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, said research in the last decade had expanded from studying surface temperatures to everything from ocean heat content to glacial retreat.

"The system is telling us an internally consistent story -- you can't explain the observed changes ... in the climate system over the second half of the 20th century by invoking natural causes," he said. He said he did not know the IPCC view.

http://today.reuters...C1-ArticlePage2

#112 william7

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 11:08 PM

elijah3, I can tell you're genuinely troubled by these problems. I wouldn't worry to much about this Russian report. Russian news is notoriously bad. Nobody knows what we should do right now, I think that is the point. It's not going to hurt to keep making our energy consuming devices more and more efficient. I'm sure we'll find out the answer in time with so many scientists working on it.

I don't believe the Russian scientist is correct. My concern is that some people will believe the Russian scientist and use his opinion as justification to totally disregard the serious threat posed by global warming and continue with business as usual. I also hope science continues to make improvements in alternative and environmentally friendly energy sources. I especially like the idea of solar energy and noticed the recent improvements reported in Scientific American at http://www.sciam.com...A197667&ref=rss.


You got that right. I see the biggest SUV's driving down the road all the time with only one occupant.

I'm totally against private ownership of motor vehicles. I'm for developing small communal societies where all motor vehicles are communally held property and are only used under certain special circumstances so as to drastically limit use. Under communal conditions, they wouldn't be necessary except in limited circumstances.

Personally this idea doesn't appeal to me very much, but I don't see anything stopping someone from doing it if they want to. Isn't that like those people in Pennsylvania? Shakers? You might like them.

The Shakers, like catholic monasteries, never appealed to me. Because they wrongly segregated the sexes, married people with families were unable to obtain the benefits or blessings of communal life. Had they allowed and encouraged procreation their way of life may of continued to prosper. The Shakers also followed other teachings and practices past down from the catholic and protestant churches that are not from the Bible, but were instead made up by popes and bishops and enforced by Roman and medieval rulers. See, for example, http://www.gnmagazin...gottenroots.htm.

I'm for communal living based on the early Christian Church model, in Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-35, where the fundamental ideology would be practicing God's law and Christ's teachings to the fullest possible extent so harsh punitive measures would be rendered unnecessary. Under such conditions, man could learn to forego excessive material pleasures according to Christ's teachings against such pursuits (Luke 12:15), but, at the same time, would have what is essential to enjoy life. Science and technology would also develop and serve man much better under these conditions.


elijah3, you must be as old as I am. I used to be able to do this when I was a kid growing up in Ohio. My friends and I could wander around the neighborhood eating apples off the backyard trees. There was a Cherry tree across the street from my house. The owner always used to call my mother and tell her to keep me out of his cherry tree. He finely gave up and told me just don't eat to many. There was a park a few blocks away. Next to it was a strawberry patch. That old man grew watermelons too. We used to sneak in there and eat the strawberry's. Sometimes he'd come out and shoot at us with a shot gun filled with salt. He was a bad shot, probably on purpose. That was in Zanesville. I went back there in 2001 after 36 years to see the old neighborhood. It's now the self proclaimed number 2 crack capitol of America. All the parks are closed at night now because of drug dealing. When I was a kid I never heard of drugs. It's really true, you can't go home.

I was raised in a small town in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and did the exact same things as a kid as you. I was never shot at with rock salt, but there were many threats of this nature. One old woman would stay up all night to watch over her raspberries when they were ripe just so we couldn't sneak in and get them.

The drugs came to my small town during my early teens with the hippie movement and I fell in love with them and paid the price. I, however, gave up all drug use in the late 70s and went on a health and educational kick that hasn't stopped.

#113 kgmax

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:39 AM

another link to the above mentioned study.

http://www.physorg.c...ws88759281.html

#114 william7

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 02:15 AM

BLOG: SCIAM OBSERVATIONS
Opinions, arguments and analyses from the editors of Scientific American

January 25, 2007

The Growing Rift Over Global Warming-Can't We All Just Get Along?


CBS is reporting that 70% of all Americans "think global warming is an environmental problem that is causing a serious impact now."

Yet, according to PricewaterhouseCoopers, only "18% of North American chief executives are concerned about climate change."

And if you ask the leaders of my home state of Texas, even fewer of them believe anthropogenic Global Warming is occurring or is an issue. According the the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram:

"Absolutely," Gov. Rick Perry replied when asked recently by the Star-Telegram whether there is scientific doubt that human activity causes global warming. "I am not going to put the state of Texas in a competitive economic disadvantage on some science that may or may not be correct."

Meanwhile, the Evangelicals who teamed up with E. O. Wilson and other scientists to address global warming and environmental destruction (who I posted about earlier), appear to be experiencing a major schism over the issue.

The debate on global warming has flared among evangelicals lately with the release of last week's joint statement by evangelicals and scientists. The coalition... called for "fundamental changes" in private and public consumption of energy among other factors that contribute to global warming.

But not all evangelicals agree with the coalition that humans are to blame for global warming. The Interfaith Stewardship Alliance and other evangelicals have spoken out against the coalition, arguing that global warming is caused naturally by changes such as alternations in the Earth's orbit and solar energy and solar wind output.

Of course, it's only in the U.S. that this is even a debate.

So what's going on here? Are 70% of the Americans dupes, as the writer of this recent letter to the editor claims (citing one of the many anti-global warming sites on the 'net)?

Or is this intertia of large systems slowing the acceptance of global warming?

How many of you think there will be holdouts on this issue in ten years? 20? Forever?

And since when did this issue become political? Does anyone else suspect that acceptance would come faster if the champion of this cause weren't Al Gore (because he's a hot-button issue for a lot of folks, and so unnecessarily complicates the issue)?

http://blog.sciam.co...=1&pb=1&ref=rss

#115 siberia

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 12:19 PM

What about IPCC 's recent report on global waming. Only a trick by the UN to frighten us into submission, eh?

You people who are convinced that global warming is a real threat, how did you came to believe it is? I believe it is because the majority of scientists believe so, but I've never really seen any studies that support the severity of the problem as it most often is portrayed in media. (Which I see as an exaggeration mildly put.)

#116 biknut

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 07:49 PM

This is a very good article about global warming. This explains that CO2 has very little effect on climate. It's mainly solar activity and cosmic- ray activity that is the main reason for warming.

The real deal?

Against the grain: Some scientists deny global warming exists
Lawrence Solomon, National Post
Published: Friday, February 02, 2007

Astrophysicist Nir Shariv, one of Israel's top young scientists, describes the logic that led him -- and most everyone else -- to conclude that SUVs, coal plants and other things man-made cause global warming.

Step One Scientists for decades have postulated that increases in carbon dioxide and other gases could lead to a greenhouse effect.

Step Two As if on cue, the temperature rose over the course of the 20th century while greenhouse gases proliferated due to human activities

Step Three No other mechanism explains the warming. Without another candidate, greenhouses gases necessarily became the cause.

Dr. Shariv, a prolific researcher who has made a name for himself assessing the movements of two-billion-year-old meteorites, no longer accepts this logic, or subscribes to these views. He has recanted: "Like many others, I was personally sure that CO2 is the bad culprit in the story of global warming. But after carefully digging into the evidence, I realized that things are far more complicated than the story sold to us by many climate scientists or the stories regurgitated by the media. "In fact, there is much more than meets the eye."

Dr. Shariv's digging led him to the surprising discovery that there is no concrete evidence -- only speculation -- that man-made greenhouse gases cause global warming. Even research from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change-- the United Nations agency that heads the worldwide effort to combat global warming -- is bereft of anything here inspiring confidence. In fact, according to the IPCC's own findings, man's role is so uncertain that there is a strong possibility that we have been cooling, not warming, the Earth. Unfortunately, our tools are too crude to reveal what man's effect has been in the past, let alone predict how much warming or cooling we might cause in the future.

All we have on which to pin the blame on greenhouse gases, says Dr. Shaviv, is "incriminating circumstantial evidence," which explains why climate scientists speak in terms of finding "evidence of fingerprints." Circumstantial evidence might be a fine basis on which to justify reducing greenhouse gases, he adds, "without other 'suspects.' " However, Dr. Shaviv not only believes there are credible "other suspects," he believes that at least one provides a superior explanation for the 20th century's warming.

"Solar activity can explain a large part of the 20th-century global warming," he states, particularly because of the evidence that has been accumulating over the past decade of the strong relationship that cosmic- ray flux has on our atmosphere. So much evidence has by now been amassed, in fact, that "it is unlikely that [the solar climate link] does not exist."

The sun's strong role indicates that greenhouse gases can't have much of an influence on the climate -- that C02 et al. don't dominate through some kind of leveraging effect that makes them especially potent drivers of climate change. The upshot of the Earth not being unduly sensitive to greenhouse gases is that neither increases nor cutbacks in future C02 emissions will matter much in terms of the climate.

Even doubling the amount of CO2 by 2100, for example, "will not dramatically increase the global temperature," Dr. Shaviv states. Put another way: "Even if we halved the CO2 output, and the CO2 increase by 2100 would be, say, a 50% increase relative to today instead of a doubled amount, the expected reduction in the rise of global temperature would be less than 0.5C. This is not significant."

The evidence from astrophysicists and cosmologists in laboratories around the world, on the other hand, could well be significant. In his study of meteorites, published in the prestigious journal, Physical Review Letters, Dr. Shaviv found that the meteorites that Earth collected during its passage through the arms of the Milky Way sustained up to 10% more cosmic ray damage than others. That kind of cosmic ray variation, Dr. Shaviv believes, could alter global temperatures by as much as 15% --sufficient to turn the ice ages on or off and evidence of the extent to which cosmic forces influence Earth's climate.

In another study, directly relevant to today's climate controversy, Dr. Shaviv reconstructed the temperature on Earth over the past 550 million years to find that cosmic ray flux variations explain more than two-thirds of Earth's temperature variance, making it the most dominant climate driver over geological time scales. The study also found that an upper limit can be placed on the relative role of CO2 as a climate driver, meaning that a large fraction of the global warming witnessed over the past century could not be due to CO2 -- instead it is attributable to the increased solar activity.

CO2 does play a role in climate, Dr. Shaviv believes, but a secondary role, one too small to preoccupy policymakers. Yet Dr. Shaviv also believes fossil fuels should be controlled, not because of their adverse affects on climate but to curb pollution.

"I am therefore in favour of developing cheap alternatives such as solar power, wind, and of course fusion reactors (converting Deuterium into Helium), which we should have in a few decades, but this is an altogether different issue." His conclusion: "I am quite sure Kyoto is not the right way to go."

Lawrence Solomon@nextcity.com

http://www.canada.co...06fef8763c6&k=0

#117 biknut

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:46 PM

Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide

Global Warming: The Cold, Hard Facts?
By Timothy Ball

Monday, February 5, 2007

Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition.“Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and was a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg.” . For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.


What would happen if tomorrow we were told that, after all, the Earth is flat? It would probably be the most important piece of news in the media and would generate a lot of debate. So why is it that when scientists who have studied the Global Warming phenomenon for years say that humans are not the cause nobody listens? Why does no one acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes on?

Believe it or not, Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide (CO2). This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear and consternation over an issue with no scientific justification. For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

No sensible person seeks conflict, especially with governments, but if we don't pursue the truth, we are lost as individuals and as a society. That is why I insist on saying that there is no evidence that we are, or could ever cause global climate change. And, recently, Yuri A. Izrael, Vice President of the United Nations sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) confirmed this statement. So how has the world come to believe that something is wrong?

Maybe for the same reason we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat: a matter of faith. "It is a cold fact: the Global Cooling presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with for ten thousand years. Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species," wrote Lowell Ponte in 1976.

I was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as I am to the threats made about Global Warming. Let me stress I am not denying the phenomenon has occurred. The world has warmed since 1680, the nadir of a cool period called the Little Ice Age (LIA) that has generally continued to the present. These climate changes are well within natural variability and explained quite easily by changes in the sun. But there is nothing unusual going on.

Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles. Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.

No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain silent.

I once received a three page letter that my lawyer defined as libellous, from an academic colleague, saying I had no right to say what I was saying, especially in public lectures. Sadly, my experience is that universities are the most dogmatic and oppressive places in our society. This becomes progressively worse as they receive more and more funding from governments that demand a particular viewpoint.

In another instance, I was accused by Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki of being paid by oil companies. That is a lie. Apparently he thinks if the fossil fuel companies pay you have an agenda. So if Greenpeace, Sierra Club or governments pay there is no agenda and only truth and enlightenment?

Personal attacks are difficult and shouldn't occur in a debate in a civilized society. I can only consider them from what they imply. They usually indicate a person or group is losing the debate. In this case, they also indicate how political the entire Global Warming debate has become. Both underline the lack of or even contradictory nature of the evidence.

I am not alone in this journey against the prevalent myth. Several well-known names have also raised their voices. Michael Crichton, the scientist, writer and filmmaker is one of them. In his latest book, "State of Fear" he takes time to explain, often in surprising detail, the flawed science behind Global Warming and other imagined environmental crises.

Another cry in the wildenerness is Richard Lindzen's. He is an atmospheric physicist and a professor of meteorology at MIT, renowned for his research in dynamic meteorology - especially atmospheric waves. He is also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has held positions at the University of Chicago, Harvard University and MIT. Linzen frequently speaks out against the notion that significant Global Warming is caused by humans. Yet nobody seems to listen.

I think it may be because most people don't understand the scientific method which Thomas Kuhn so skilfully and briefly set out in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." A scientist makes certain assumptions and then produces a theory which is only as valid as the assumptions. The theory of Global Warming assumes that CO2 is an atmospheric greenhouse gas and as it increases temperatures rise. It was then theorized that since humans were producing more CO2 than before, the temperature would inevitably rise. The theory was accepted before testing had started, and effectively became a law.

As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a sceptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists. This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word. The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted.

Meanwhile, politicians are being listened to, even though most of them have no knowledge or understanding of science, especially the science of climate and climate change. Hence, they are in no position to question a policy on climate change when it threatens the entire planet. Moreover, using fear and creating hysteria makes it very difficult to make calm rational decisions about issues needing attention.

Until you have challenged the prevailing wisdom you have no idea how nasty people can be. Until you have re-examined any issue in an attempt to find out all the information, you cannot know how much misinformation exists in the supposed age of information.

I was greatly influenced several years ago by Aaron Wildavsky's book "Yes, but is it true?" The author taught political science at a New York University and realized how science was being influenced by and apparently misused by politics. He gave his graduate students an assignment to pursue the science behind a policy generated by a highly publicised environmental concern. To his and their surprise they found there was little scientific evidence, consensus and justification for the policy. You only realize the extent to which Wildavsky's findings occur when you ask the question he posed. Wildavsky's students did it in the safety of academia and with the excuse that it was an assignment. I have learned it is a difficult question to ask in the real world, however I firmly believe it is the most important question to ask if we are to advance in the right direction.


Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman of the Natural Resources Stewardship Project (www.nrsp.com), is a Victoria-based environmental consultant and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. He can be reached at letters@canadafreepress.com

http://www.canadafre...rming020507.htm

#118 jackinbox

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:25 AM

Could you provide a source that isn't connected to the oil industry?

Tim Ball

#119 biknut

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 06:54 AM

Could you provide a source that isn't connected to the oil industry?

Tim Ball


Do you think you could do any better trying to find anyone advocating global warming that's not connected to nut ball environmental commie organizations? I think not.

Anytime scientists say they're 95% sure of anything, you know they're probably wrong. [thumb]

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#120 DJS

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:40 PM

Global warming my ass! [tung] (j/k)




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