107 replies to this topic

[advancedatheist]

[struct]

great one!!!
Can't wait to see more kids throw santa, jesus, god into the trash can and if needed show their middle finger to or readily ignoring whoever tries to convince them about the existence of god.

[Karomesis]

did you see the guy he interviewed awhile back, he was caught later admitting to felltio and meth use http://www.cnn.com/2...rd.allegations/
charlatan/fraud =OwN3P [lol]

when I heard that, it was almost too good to be true. he's now a fool and hypocrite.

[struct]

When I saw that guy first on Dawkin's documentary he struck me as very 'wicked' and it didn't take long for the news to show his true face.
But he is just the tip of a small 'iceberg' that made it to the warmer waters.
However there are huge hypocrite 'ice sheets' that aren't that easy to melt.

Added:
By 'ice shelves' I meant religious institutions which like ice shelves occupy large areas. I did not inted(ed) to show any other similarities between the two (ice shelves and religious institutions).

Edited by struct, 15 December 2006 - 03:27 AM.

[Athanasios]

An organization like the one he was the head of is a magnet for sociopaths. It was interesting because he didn't seem slick at all, but of course, he only had to be slick for a certain type of person.

[william7]

Any serious practitioner of the Word of God knows the Christian right is practicing politics, power, wealth and privilege and not what Jesus Christ taught. This is why the criterion for perfection under true Christianity (as opposed to the false version practiced by the Christian right) is giving up all material wealth and following Christ. Matthew 19:21-27; Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-35; 1 Timothy 6:6-8.

When guys like Haggard fall they discredit true Christianity and steer many in the wrong direction. Atheism is not the answer to the world's problems and to mortality.

Edited by elijah3, 15 December 2006 - 11:30 AM.

[caston]

I wrote the guy an e-mail:

Those people in the videos aren't ‘blaspheming against the Holy Spirit’.
You can only blaspheme against the holy spirit by misleading the public
into thinking that Satan was working within Jesus instead of the Holy
Spirit when he performed miracles.

I hope this clears things up.

best regards,

Chris

Actually that brings up some interesting questions. Is the religious right blaspheming against the holy spirit when they try to use the name of Jesus to
achieve things that could easily be seen as the "will" of the devil.

Or was I actually blaspheming against the holy spirit when I wrote the following?:

http://www.imminst.o...14

Perhaps the unforgivable sin is to convince people that Christianity is evil especially if you do so while claiming to be acting as a good willed Christian. Not mentioning any names GW Bush...*cough* IRAQ *cough* restricting stem cell research *cough*

It could be like saying if you commit a crime we will eventually forgive you and let you out of jail but if you mold the system in a way that incites otherwise innocent people to commit crimes (and actually brings the entire law into disrepute) we will lock you up and throw away the key.

Edited by caston, 15 December 2006 - 12:16 PM.

[Karomesis]

When guys like Haggard fall they discredit true Christianity and steer many in the wrong direction. Atheism is not the answer to the world's problems and to mortality.

perhaps not, but the truth is.

I became a fundamental baptist a while ago because i searched for the tuth,, now that I realize what a joke religion is, I search for the truth with the rosetta stone of science and reason. [thumb]

[william7]

perhaps not, but the truth is.

I became a fundamental baptist a while ago because i searched for the tuth,, now that I realize what a joke religion is, I search for the truth with the rosetta stone of science and reason. [thumb]

It's unfortunate you were unable to find truth in a fundamentalist baptist church. They're not exactly set up for delivering the truth to people. Self-studying the Bible and a wide variety of Bible literature is probably the best way to go these days.


Science and reason alone will not unlock the doors to immortality. Researchers are already recognizing the need for religion to do this. See http://www.bluezones...inawa-findings/. I believe the Bible has the best material for strengthening character and community and supporting a quest for good health and longevity if it is taught and practiced correctly.

[garethnelsonuk]

Religion provides comfort and meaning to people who otherwise may have pretty meaningless lives. Keeping the faith (in the religious sense) helps people keep the faith in other areas. Of course, let's not also forget the lovely "wrath of god" stuff in the old testament.

[william7]

let's not also forget the lovely "wrath of god" stuff in the old testament.

Compare our Creator/God and His wrath on the people of Old Testament times, who were corrupt, violent, hard hearted, stiff necked and disobedient, with a scientist working with a mice population that won't perform as necessary so he can complete his research in order make improvements that will benefit all mice populations in the future. The mice are disobedient and violent towards one another. The scientist is forced to try some pretty drastic means to accomplish his goal. When the drastic means fail, the scientist is forced to wipe out the total population and start with a new one.

You got to understand God's point of view in the matter. He's trying to build a model society without exploitation, oppression, and violence that will endure. He wants the people to be healthy and live long lives. If the people refuse to cooperate with His program for achieving this, He will destroy them.

[caston]

Maybe we should introduce the Hprize....

BTW this is the e-mail I got back from the Blasphemy Challenge guy:

3 minutes to the end of the video explains why you're wrong:


Hope this clears things up! :-)

Edited by caston, 16 December 2006 - 07:40 AM.

[Ghostrider]

I think this whole thing is a waste of time. If it could be proven absolutely that the Holy Spirit in fact does or does not exist, it would have been done already and there would be no such thing as faith. The truth is, agnosticism is the only reasonable belief. Our experience simply lies only within this world. I will experience after this life whatever it was that I experienced before this life...and that I do not know.

The people on that website look like a bunch of sociopaths. Most of their arguments are logical, but they are only claiming that there is no holy spirit by pointing out contradictions (or making up contradictions) without proving conclusively that they are correct. So they have proven nothing and only give their position, just as many believers also do. So therefore, it is all a worthless waste of time. I think their time would be better spent if they focused not on trying to prove something that they cannot, but instead pointing out contradictions held by many Catholics. Such as "pro-life", but also being pro-war, especially considering that the alternatives to money spent on war could have been spent on research promoting health. I think they are wasting their time.

[caston]

Well said. Judge their actions not their beliefs.

[Ghostrider]

Let me add on to what I said earlier. I think they are responding to people who think like this:

Does God exist? I find it interesting that so much attention is given to this debate. The latest surveys tell us that over 90% of people in the world today believe in the existence of God or some higher power. Yet, somehow the responsibility is placed on those who believe God does exist to somehow prove that He really does exist. To me, I think it should be the other way around.

...(http://www.gotquesti...-God-exist.html)

If the GRE "analyze this argument" section had religion-related questions, any test taker would be glad to respond to the quote above :-). It demonstrates many of the logical flaws of a carefully-crafted GRE question.

The person who is trying to convert people to some form of Christianity must really be an Atheist trying to sabotage the Christian movement. The reasoning above and further down that webpage is absolutely horrific. Let me break down the above argument just for fun.

The latest surveys (no citation) say that most people believe in the existence of God. Ok, so what? Most people believed that the Earth was flat at one point in time. Most people use Windows XP, is that the best operating system? Is it unreasonable to ask someone who is trying to convert others to the belief that God exists for a reason?

I only addressed the first paragraph (stopped reading after that), the rest of the article might be entertaining if you have time to kill. My point is that people such as the author quoted directly above are giving Christianity a bad name even if they are trying to help it. Christianity becomes an easy target because there is no "peer-review". Every Christian is allowed to say whatever the hell they want about their beliefs and they become representative of all Christian faith. True Christians should be addressing bad logic and hypocracy originating from within their own church. They do not for two reasons that I can think of. First, criticizing other members is viewed as "not nice" and un-Christian -- everyone is supposed to have equal rights. Second, everything becomes political. They will support misguided people such as Bush because he is anti-abortion, anti-stem cell, at the expense of Iraq - a horrible, unjustified war that will ultimately, I am afraid, accomplish nothing good and only promote suffering.

By the way, that webpage that I referenced above comes up at position #2 in Google if you search for "Evidence for the Existence of God" -- this shows you how serious the problem of bad logic is for the Christian Church. So someone Googles "Evidence for the Existence of God" and they read the first paragraph of the link that I provided above...what do you think they will think :-).

[advancedatheist]

[samson]

So, umm... Excuse me I fail to see the 'elaborate' point in all this, but WHAT? You want people to announce that they do not believe in God? What exactly is that going to achieve, especially on the internet? I mean, the people whom it might come as a shock (being that shocking people's beliefs is always a good thing) aren't really watching it. They're at their homes, watching TV, getting their daily dose of mind-numbing crap. And they love it.

Second, hypocrites make me want to stab forty people at random. More than I usually do, that is. But what really amazeses me (in addition to the stabbing) is that americans LISTEN to these people. Or not, take your pick.

[advancedatheist]

So, umm... Excuse me I fail to see the 'elaborate' point in all this, but WHAT? You want people to announce that they do not believe in God? What exactly is that going to achieve, especially on the internet?

It breaks a huge christian taboo and symbolizes the triumph of reason over superstitious fear.

[samson]

Okay. I guess it's just different over there. For some 'odd' reason, I pity you guys.

[Athanasios]

So, umm... Excuse me I fail to see the 'elaborate' point in all this, but WHAT? You want people to announce that they do not believe in God? What exactly is that going to achieve, especially on the internet? I mean, the people whom it might come as a shock (being that shocking people's beliefs is always a good thing) aren't really watching it. They're at their homes, watching TV, getting their daily dose of mind-numbing crap. And they love it.

Second, hypocrites make me want to stab forty people at random. More than I usually do, that is. But what really amazeses me (in addition to the stabbing) is that americans LISTEN to these people. Or not, take your pick.

It is interesting. It is kind of like a form of non-violent protest.

Dawkins has made an interesting point time and time again about atheists and agnostics not having any political pull whatsoever. He then goes on to say that herding atheists together for a cause is like herding cats, cause they are usually very independent and intelligent. In the end, he claims that by being agnostic or atheist should not make you un-electable anymore than being of a different race or gender. He likens the atheist movement with the struggles that homosexuals had to go through to break through many of the taboos surrounding their lifestyle. In this sense, I understand why the above is being done. It is a non-violent resistance movement. All of this brings more awareness.

It seems the main reason it is becoming so important for atheists to speak out now, is because how much religious views are shaping the U.S. government. Not only is it being used as a reason for war, it is being used as a reason to disregard science and debate, and its effect on the nation only seems to be growing.

[william7]

samson, I noticed in a previous post where you mentioned you are a high school student. Does your school have a program for exploring longevity like mentioned at http://www.bluezones.com/expeditions/ ? If not, may be you could make a request that your school establish an educational program along similar lines due to the importance of good health and longevity to students and the community.

[stephenszpak]

Hi All

I came across this quote a few weeks ago:

“Fervid atheism is usually a screen for repressed religion.”

screen - To screen is to shield or block from view by interposing another
object. (American Heritage Dictionary)

http://en.thinkexist...sed/332366.html

I now think Wilhelm Stekel is right. Those the *believe* there is no God,
and believe it strongly, have to express that belief. One wonders why.
Atheism has nothing to offer by definition. With Christianity (besides it
being the truth) there is Heaven in the next life and help even in this life.

In general, we know from our personal lives, regardless of our beliefs,
that some things are true, yet unprovable. If someone says "I love my wife."
this would be an example. The man can't prove he loves his wife.

Some things that are true can't be proven. They are still true.

-Stephen

[Athanasios]

“Fervid atheism is usually a screen for repressed religion.”

I have seen this to be true in more than one case. I also have met quite a few where this was not the case. Even more are forced into agnosticism, because of the social dangers of being open atheist.

Atheism has nothing to offer by definition.

Sometimes one choice or no choice may be better because of the alternatives. Such as silence sometimes being the best form of communication.

[Ghostrider]

Such as silence sometimes being the best form of communication.

Maybe so, but I prefer to keep talking until I can think of something to say...as I am doing now.

[stephenszpak]

Without addressing anyone in particular, I think one of the reasons so
many reject Jesus, is pride. They see themselves as enlighted individuals
and Christians as, well, uneducated , to put it mildly.

"But the best of all is to let him read no science but to give him a grand general idea that he knows it all..."

Screwtape Letter I (C. S. LEWIS)

-Stephen

[Athanasios]

Without addressing anyone in particular, I think one of the reasons so
many reject Jesus, is pride. They see themselves as enlighted individuals
and Christians as, well, uneducated , to put it mildly.

"But the best of all is to let him read no science but to give him a grand general idea that he knows it all..."

  Screwtape Letter I    (C. S. LEWIS)

  -Stephen

Those that act in this way also seem to fit into the observation you made with the "screen" quote. I have herd it called "anti" before, similar to rebelling for the sake of rebelling. I can see this happening a lot, since there is a lot of pressure to be a christian in many subcultures of the U.S.. Teenagers are especially likely to exert this behavior, because they often feel like others, like parents and other authority figures, are in control of their lives. It makes them feel as if no choice is theirs, so they will rebel to feel somewhat in control.

[jc1991]

Without addressing anyone in particular, I think one of the reasons so
many reject Jesus, is pride. They see themselves as enlighted individuals
and Christians as, well, uneducated , to put it mildly.

Not everyone is like that though. For instance, I know quite a few Christians (I actually probably know more Christians than I do fellow Atheists.) and I don't consider most of them to be uneducated. I consider them to be misinformed on matters of religion, but only because most of them have been more or less brainwashed into following Christianity by their relatives.

For instance, we had one teacher that liked to repeatedly use the "evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics" argument, until another student (who is a Christian) spent about half a class period detailing the holes in the argument.

Several of my best friends are Christians, and we regularly like to have both scientific and theological debates in our spare time. They all have a working knowledge of the sciences with detailed information on their field of interest (One of my friends is considering marine biology as a field of work.) and I've made a point of learning as much as possible about Christian theology. I see no reason not to debate theology just because I don't believe in god; it's still a very interesting topic, and it reveals quite a lot about both ancient and modern Christian/Jewish culture.

Edited by jc1991, 16 December 2006 - 10:56 PM.

[Ghostrider]

http://www.edge.org/...tt06_index.html

Edge has some pretty good articles outside of philosophy. Read the article by George Church on synthetic biology (another article besides the one linked above). I am not trying to kill faith, but I appreciate the author's point of view.

[stephenszpak]

cnorwood19

One of the problems of the U.S. is millions of people *think* they are
Christians because they play church. Gosh, around Christmas almost
everyone thinks they are a Christian. Yet if you ask almost anyone leaving
a church service of one of the big denominations "When were you saved?"
you know most of them will look at you like you're crazy. The word "saved"
has no meaning to them whatsoever.

Sometimes I think people looking at Christianity, think that everyone that
goes to church is a Christian. I'm not saying you think this. I just wanted to
cover this.

-Stephen

[basho]

These religion vs. atheism threads always remind me of this picture: