191 replies to this topic

[Mangala]

I'm an Atheist.

I am also a Singulitarian. I believe that Artificial Intelligence will eventually allow humanity to do amazing things such as fix world hunger, cure world diseases, and generally bring absolute happiness to each and every person who has ever lived.

More than this, I believe AI's true power is in its ability to provide us with information. Not just interesting information, but the exact, right answer to all questions. Because an AI smarter than all of humanity combined can provide us with any answer to any question, it will tell us how to live forever and even provide us with the capability to do so immediately. Thus I believe the potential of "Friendly AI" solves all problems.

I came to the conclusion a while ago that Singulitarianism is therefore, for all intents and purposes, a religion. Religion's main goal is to provide a panacea for all possible problems. Additionally it serves to provide answers to every possible question unanswered by common knowledge today. Science does a good job of trying to answer unanswered questions and fix problems, but the promise of AI theoretically does both perfectly and efficiently.

Singulitarianism is therefore the search for the good AI. An ideal Singulitarian in my book is therefore someone who spends his entire life dedicated to building an AI, furthering its development, and making sure it doesn't get angry with us [glasses].

Singulitarianism is therefore deeply fulfilling. It provides a persistent overarching goal to one's life that was once fulfilled by a God.

Any Atheist will fervently argue against the existence of God (and rightly he/she should). The problem with being anti-God is that in decrying religion, one misses out on the good things religion can provide.

1. A community of supportive people
2. Meaning
3. Purpose
4. Guidance during adverse times
5. Moral guidelines

While I would argue Christianity only sort of does these things (Richard Dawkins does a good job of explaining why Christianity in fact does a bad job of providing these things) I would however jump at the chance to explain why evolution and Singulitarianism combined in fact provide tenets #2, 3, and 5 of a religion.

Why not number 1? Well, for one thing, there's no Singulitarian Church nearby full of people to support your struggles and for two, I'm not sure what we would talk about after a while.

How about number 4? This is the big thing. The point of my topic, in fact. Christians can receive advice from priests and ministers in bad times as to what they should do to feel better (even if it’s bogus). The AI is not built yet, so I can't look to any sort of AI bible for guidance.

Indeed, this is a problem for baseline atheism as well. There's no support for any of the 5 tenets of religion (Those tenets are subjective by the way) and no overarching goal to provide your life with meaning and purpose.

My question for this topic is, how do we provide Atheism, a sensible approach to existence, with some real meaning and purpose?

And if you're a Singulitarian (my interpretation of one) and you feel you have that purpose in your life, how do you pick yourself up during depressing times? If you get Cancer, (I don't, don’t' worry [thumb]) what do you reach for to feel better and to provide a sense of security to yourself during bad times the way Christians can with only false truths?

Thanks,

Mangala

P.S. Wonder if anyone recognizes me from previous posts like 4 years ago?

[Lazarus Long]

It is good to have you back. You were missed.

One of your topics (socialism v capitalism) is the all time most trafficked and most participated in topic here I believe. It was actually begun back in the BJKlein days and imported. Perhaps you should read its many pages now and then and weigh in there. )

[Mangala]

It's actually "Singularitarian"

Hmm, that's probably true. Then again the word isn't really defined by most dictionaries, so its a little fuzzy. I would however even go so far as to argue "Singulitarianism" should be a wholly separate word referring to belief in the Singularity. Singulitarianism should be a strictly religious movement. This of course would be my own definition. "Singularitarianism" is in fact not defined so rigidly as religious (on Wikipedia that is).

Edited by Mangala, 30 December 2006 - 02:34 PM.

[Mangala]

It is good to have you back.  You were missed.

One of your topics (socialism v capitalism) is the all time most trafficked and most participated in topic here I believe.  It was actually begun back in the BJKlein days and imported.  Perhaps you should read its many pages now and then and weigh in there. )

Enh, this guy kept posting 100 stupid quotes having nothing to do with the debate every time I replied towards the end. Nowadays I actually have a more appreciative view of the benefits of idealized Capitalism. Go figure. Anyway, I am so suprised people continue to discuss this even today! Wow. Maybe because I was in HS then and I had tons of time to reply to every entry so it kept things moving.

[Mangala]

Umm... ImmInst.org? If I got cancer for some reason, I'd post here and probably get pages of debate between experts about how to optimize my health/supplementation, not to mention guidance in the process of signing up for cryonics (just in case), and probably a good sense of security with the scientifically tested truths and intelligent opinions provided by the great people around here.

Yes, yes, this forum certainly provides the community aspect so sorely needed. Yet the discussion centrally focuses on future solutions to present problems. The religious can solve these problems immediately (if you're deluded enough). We don't have that luxury.

For instance, if you were Christian and you didn't get a promotion, the church would tell you to pray. If your lover left you, you could pray and things "should" get better. What do Atheists do when these things happen? If we posted on Imminst.org we'd probably get a few vague supportive "try to live long enough to find another wife" answers, but no overarching theme when it comes to solving present problems.

This is of course seeking analysis for the proposition that "There are no Atheists in foxholes." When Atheists are confronted with problems that can't be solved by common sense or scientific research, they don't really have the armament necessary to deal with the emotional impact. So Atheists fall back on religion during tough times, asking for any God if he exists to help them through the trouble. How can we fight against this urge? What provides us with the ability to find comfort during emotionally problematic and even painful moments?

I find "well, life is pointless so it doesn't matter if I die" pretty unfulfilling and not very comforting. Yet, its the logical choice for an Atheist.

I guess the real question is, what is the Atheist alternative to prayer?

[stephenszpak]

Mangala wrote>I guess the real question is, what is the Atheist alternative to prayer?


Stephen wrote> Taking the Lord's name in vain.

-Stephen

[william7]

My question for this topic is, how do we provide Atheism, a sensible approach to existence, with some real meaning and purpose?

Why can't atheists instead see the light and come to a new understanding of the Bible that supports the science of increasing lifespans and artificial intelligence? Reformed atheists could do much to depaganize the current false practice of Christianity and bring in new converts from that sector. It will be easier to convert the world's false religions - that are such a problem - to a new, rational, understanding of the Scriptures than to atheism with science as its religion. Give it some thought. The stakes are very high.

[Mangala]

My question for this topic is, how do we provide Atheism, a sensible approach to existence, with some real meaning and purpose?

Why can't atheists instead see the light and come to a new understanding of the Bible that supports the science of increasing lifespans and artificial intelligence? Reformed atheists could do much to depaganize the current false practice of Christianity and bring in new converts from that sector. It will be easier to convert the world's false religions - that are such a problem - to a new, rational, understanding of the Scriptures than to atheism with science as its religion. Give it some thought. The stakes are very high.

Easier but obviously wrong. Even with a rational take on religion (Christianity in particular) the scriptures still give misleading moral advice such as stoning women who touched you after recently having had their periods or killing people who wear cloths of two different fibers. There's no gauge telling you which scriptures to believe if obviously some of them are untrue.

Plus, the answers provided in the bible rely on a God which of course no true Atheist can accept. No, this topic only deals with improving Atheism rather than relying on unproven things all over again.

[william7]

Easier but obviously wrong. Even with a rational take on religion (Christianity in particular) the scriptures still give misleading moral advice such as stoning women who touched you after recently having had their periods or killing people who wear cloths of two different fibers. There's no gauge telling you which scriptures to believe if obviously some of them are untrue.

Plus, the answers provided in the bible rely on a God which of course no true Atheist can accept. No, this topic only deals with improving Atheism rather than relying on unproven things all over again.

Can you show me the spot in the Bible where women on periods were stoned for touching men or for wearing cloths of two different fibers? God was forced to deal with ancient Israel harshly because they were very disobedient and rebellious. Some of the laws God gave the Israelites, through Moses, appeared to be harsh, but were intended to limit their tendency to violence, oppression, and exploitation. God, however, sent Jesus Christ with a better understanding of the law. Jesus wants the law applied with mercy, faithfulness, justice and with an emphasis on loving and assisting your neighbor to the fullest extent possible. See, for example, Matthew 9:12-13; 22:36-40; 23:23.

Do not make the mistake of putting all your faith in science and technology to solve the world's problems. See the article "Restoration: The Limitations of Technology" in the January 2006 issue of World News and Prophecy, at http://www.wnponline...oration0601.htm, for good advice on why this shouldn't be done.

God is real and many scientists are coming to the realization that He exists. They see too much evidence pointing to His existence.

You should join the ranks of former atheists who want to see the Bible interpreted correctly and applied to the betterment of humanity.

[Mangala]

Leviticus 19:19. Plus there are a number of other ridiculous rules in Leviticus, all of which when broke result in death by stoning. I encourage you to read them.

Listen, I understand you are still a Christian. That's fine, but save it for a different discussion. This discussion is not about finding meaning through religion. The premise is that given that one is an Atheist, is there some method of consoling someone scientifically.

For instance, is there some research into happiness we can look to? Is there currently a lack of research into the concept of happiness? Atheism provides comfort during the good times but really lacks during the bad.

Mangala, how do you even know that there is some Atheist alternative to prayer?

There could not be. But I propose that there must be some method of help during the bad because of the success of other Atheist values. Evolution provides so much of a comfort where other creationist stories have failed. Singulitarianism provides such a comfort for extending life and living with a goal. What can Atheism point to for dealing with depression, anxiety, and other "bad" emotions? A question Atheists should consider is "What is the nature of happiness? How do we preserve it?" without looking to religious quick-fixes with prayer.

Edited by Mangala, 30 December 2006 - 02:40 PM.

[kylyssa]

The atheist alternative to prayer is action.

[william7]

Leviticus 19:19. Plus there are a number of other ridiculous rules in Leviticus, all of which when broke result in death by stoning. I encourage you to read them.

There was no death penalty for this. See Leviticus 19:19. God had a purpose for giving this statute at the time. I'm not aware of what the religious scholars say the purpose was. Again, God was educating and training the Israelites who were a very difficult people.

Jesus Christ brought a better way of understanding and applying the law. You didn't comment where I stated:

God, however, sent Jesus Christ with a better understanding of the law. Jesus wants the law applied with mercy, faithfulness, justice and with an emphasis on loving and assisting your neighbor to the fullest extent possible. See, for example, Matthew 9:12-13; 22:36-40; 23:23.

Listen, I understand you are still a Christian. That's fine, but save it for a different discussion. This discussion is not about finding meaning through religion. The premise is that given that one is an Atheist, is there some method of consoling someone scientifically.

And my answer is that this is not possible. Science is not set up for solving this type of problem. Why should science waste its time on a problem of this nature when it already has a perfectly good God to solve it if His instructions are followed carefully. People - including scientists - are refusing to follow God's instruction manual the Bible. See http://www.gnmagazin...bibleandyou.htm.

[kylyssa]

1. You'd be amazed how supportive your community really is. If you nurture friendships and associate with compassionate people there is always a shoulder to cry on or a hand to lift you up when you fall.

2. The meaning of life is to live. This sounds simple until you closely examine it. So often a person will find her/himself just performing tasks rather than being in the moment and extracting all they can from the moment.

3. Create your own purpose. Goals you choose for yourself are always more compelling than those set by outside forces. Think about what you want to accomplish in life and structure your actions to achieve your goals.

4. Look both inside yourself and to those that care for you for guidance. Most times right action is not too difficult to figure out if you have caring friends and a good idea of the person you want to be.

5. Your parents probably already taught you things like, "don't eat your playmates, Jimmy." Use your logic to arrive at moral guidelines. What rules would you like everyone to follow for your optimum happiness, safety, and health? Now follow those rules yourself. Be loving, be compassionate. Be the type of person you would like, the type of person you could depend on.

[kylyssa]

If you get Cancer, (I don't, don’t' worry [thumb]) what do you reach for to feel better and to provide a sense of security to yourself during bad times the way Christians can with only false truths?

You reach for the human beings that love you.

[william7]

1. You'd be amazed how supportive your community really is. If you nurture friendships and associate with compassionate people there is always a shoulder to cry on or a hand to lift you up when you fall.

2. The meaning of life is to live. This sounds simple until you closely examine it. So often a person will find her/himself just performing tasks rather than being in the moment and extracting all they can from the moment.

3. Create your own purpose. Goals you choose for yourself are always more compelling than those set by outside forces. Think about what you want to accomplish in life and structure your actions to achieve your goals.

4. Look both inside yourself and to those that care for you for guidance. Most times right action is not too difficult to figure out if you have caring friends and a good idea of the person you want to be.

5. Your parents probably already taught you things like, "don't eat your playmates, Jimmy." Use your logic to arrive at moral guidelines. What rules would you like everyone to follow for your optimum happiness, safety, and health? Now follow those rules yourself. Be loving, be compassionate. Be the type of person you would like, the type of person you could depend on.

The process works much better when there is a real God to back it up. People are more motivated and devoted to living the right way.

When people create their own purpose and goals there is the risk that there will be a conflict with others who have made up completely different purposes and goals. This can be seen as a serious problem today.

It is better for the cause of peace and harmony if people are of one heart and mind on matters of substance.

[kylyssa]

The process works much better when there is a real God to back it up. People are more motivated and devoted to living the right way.

So far, there's no indication of this being true. Many religions claim to have a hot-line to a real God but as yet none of them have managed to behave peacefully for any length of time.

I believe that if you come to the conclusion that something is right you'll be more apt to follow it rather than if a conflicted book tells you something is right.

If religion creates such motivated, peaceful, right-living people why are there a larger proportion of religious people in prison than in the general population? And why are the majority of hate crimes committed by religious people?

[stephenszpak]

kylyssa (you got my PM right? no big deal) -Stephen

[stephenszpak]

Mangala

Mangala wrote>


Even with a rational take on religion (Christianity in particular) the scriptures still give misleading moral advice such as stoning women who touched you after recently having had their periods or killing people who wear cloths of two different fibers.

Stephen wrote> You seem to be confusing Judaism with Christianity. They
are not the same.

-Stephen

[william7]

So far, there's no indication of this being true.  Many religions claim to have a hot-line to a real God but as yet none of them have managed to behave peacefully for any length of time.

None of those religious organizations you've been observing are even coming close to an honest practice of Christianity as the Bible indicates it's to be practiced.

I believe that if you come to the conclusion that something is right you'll be more apt to follow it rather than if a conflicted book tells you something is right.

If everybody comes to their own conclusion about what is right you're going to still have a major problem. People will still feel it's right to exploit and oppress others through politics and religion that they've devised on their own.

For children to learn right moral behaviour they must be taught a consistent set of rules by parents with solid reinforcement from the community. Children can't be expected to do this on their own. Many child psychologists will tell you the same thing. Notice the special issue of Scientific American where it says:

"The Moral Development of Children by William Damon
It is not enough for kids to tell right from wrong. They must develop a commitment to acting on their ideals. Enlightened parenting can help" http://www.sciam.com...&sc=rt_nav_list

If religion creates such motivated, peaceful, right-living people why are there a larger proportion of religious people in prison than in the general population?  And why are the majority of hate crimes committed by religious people?

I believe you have your facts wrong here. Most people practicing a religion are in the general population, not in prison. Again, those people committing hate crimes in the name of a religion are practicing a false religion or are failing to understand and practice what Jesus Christ actually taught.

Have you ever seen the article posted by kent23, at http://www.imminst.o...=170&t=12069&s= ? Maybe, as an atheist and immortalist, you should consider helping Christians improve on their understanding and practice of what the Bible teaches.

[kylyssa]

Peerhaps my phrasing was unclear - the prison population has a higher percentage of it's members that are religious than the percentage of religious persons found in the general population. That is if there are 90% religious people in the general population there should also be 90% or less religious people in prison but in fact there are around 98% - 99% religious people in prison. Are non-religious people just better at not getting caught?

[Mangala]

Mangala

Mangala wrote>


  Even with a rational take on religion (Christianity in particular) the scriptures still give misleading moral advice such as stoning women who touched you after recently having had their periods or killing people who wear cloths of two different fibers.

Stephen wrote> You seem to be confusing Judaism with Christianity. They
                          are not the same.

-Stephen

It's old testament vs. new testament. Both accepted in Christianity. Christians might try to brush it off as "Well, in the new testament Jesus doesn't necessarily think so." But then what about the Creationism story then? That's in the old testament. What about claims about homosexuality? That's in the old testament.

Not to mention Christian is defending it even though apparently Jesus will later tell God he was wrong. But aren't they the same thing? Ridiculous book that bible.

Edited by Mangala, 31 December 2006 - 09:54 PM.

[Mangala]

Peerhaps my phrasing was unclear - the prison population has a higher percentage of it's members that are religious than the percentage of religious persons found in the general population.  That is if there are 90% religious people in the general population there should also be 90% or less religious people in prison but in fact there are around 98% - 99% religious people in prison.  Are non-religious people just better at not getting caught?

To Christian's credit, that might be the Atheist in the foxhole effect. They turn religious either because they're so desperate or because prison time might be appealed if you join a religious service while being there. A "good little Christian" might be looked upon as better suited to the outside world. My cousin's in prison right now in one of those programs.

In fact it might be better if we didn't think religion automatically turns homicidal maniacs and drug dealers back into normal productive human beings. In my opinion neither prison nor religion does a good job of recuperating these people. Not to mention religion can be even worse when it deprives raped convicts of condoms during sex, spreading AIDS ad infinitum within and outside prison walls.

Edited by Mangala, 31 December 2006 - 10:30 PM.

[Mangala]

As the great Michael Anissimov once said:
"You have to realize that you are probably going to die"



Just calm down and do the right thing. You have the means to handle any emotional problem on your own.

Not necessarily true. You're going for the easy answer. Many Atheists kill themselves over an apparent meaninglessness of life. They usually don't know what that "right thing" is though you make it sound so easy. If people had the ability to solve all of their emotional problems the world would be a much better place. People do not have this ability currently though. And most Atheists really can't point to much of a proof of meaning in life.

Now Dawkins does a good job of pointing out that we can define our own meanings for ourselves which provides a good replacement. I've already pointed out my own meaning (the singularity).

I was reading the other day about a professor at Princeton who is studying happiness. For instance, his research shows "The only time you are happy about your BMW is when you are thinking about it" meaning nice things do not necessarily result in more happiness over the long term. And yet many people derive deep emotional pain from a lack of riches and objects. Perhaps with more research we may find specific emotional guidance which would optimally serve as an Atheist alternative to "God says you should try to...". So far Atheists have little to point to.

I forget the professor's name...annoying...

Edited by Mangala, 31 December 2006 - 10:31 PM.

[Mangala]

The atheist alternative to prayer is action.

Now that is an interesting first step!

So the argument is action really replaces under-utilized time when otherwise people would be sitting in church or a mosque. I think that's good advice. I would however build upon that by asking what guides that action? Surely we can come up with something that would guide people better than the Bible. Here's my reasoning:

- There must exist at least one valuable piece of advice in the Bible or other religious book not readily derived from "common sense" thought
- If there are no good pieces of advice in religious texts, there must exist one good piece of advice somewhere outside the religious realm which would help people during bad emotional times
-> Either way, there is a good piece of advice somewhere
- How do we best provide some process through which they would reach this piece of advice either on their own or distributed somewhere?

In pointing this out I'm starting to realize education does a good job of guiding this action. So is the culmination of all educated thought the scientific version of the bible? Can we form a condensed version of this for easy reading then, to guide people throughout their problems? Is Wikipedia an attempt at doing so? Can we go smaller to form an "Atheist Bible"; Religion done the right way?

Even with such an "Atheist Bible" the bag of tricks is still based upon other people guiding you on what to do. What I'm looking for is what Daniel Dennett (Darwin's Dangerous Idea) would call a "crane." Something, some process through which people could reach emotional optimality on their own or at least understand why their emotions are stagnant during terrible times.

Edited by Mangala, 31 December 2006 - 10:40 PM.

[stephenszpak]

Mangala

Mangala wrote>


  Even with a rational take on religion (Christianity in particular) the scriptures still give misleading moral advice such as stoning women who touched you after recently having had their periods or killing people who wear cloths of two different fibers.

Stephen wrote> You seem to be confusing Judaism with Christianity. They
                          are not the same.

-Stephen

It's old testament vs. new testament. Both accepted in Christianity. Christians might try to brush it off as "Well, in the new testament Jesus doesn't necessarily think so." But then what about the Creationism story then? That's in the old testament.

Mangala

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Gospel of John (the first page):

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

http://www.biblegate...er=1&version=49

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Creationism story of Genesis is very hard for me to accept. I accept it.


This is from a recent post of mine. Words in caps mean they are from
the Old Testament. Christians don't live under the Law. There are many
other scriptures in the New Testament that say much the same (if you
should desire to pursue this matter).



=================================================

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

http://www.biblegate...er=3&version=49


===================================================



Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

http://www.biblegate...er=2&version=49
=========================================================



-Stephen

[Mangala]

I don't really understand your post Stephen. I thought we were pretty much agreed that the old and new testaments together were pretty much fallacious and contradictory. What I posit is that Atheism still lacks alternatives to religious guidance and prayer. It's easy to point out the flaws in something made up centuries ago to control people, but its about time we came up with a few things to serve as alternatives to those things religion still provides for people. If nothing else, religion provides something for people to hold onto when times get tough. Can't we do better?

The one thing religion may have actually done right is to point out all of those things people need besides food, water and shelter.

[william7]

Peerhaps my phrasing was unclear - the prison population has a higher percentage of it's members that are religious than the percentage of religious persons found in the general population.  That is if there are 90% religious people in the general population there should also be 90% or less religious people in prison but in fact there are around 98% - 99% religious people in prison.  Are non-religious people just better at not getting caught?

Take it from me, the majority of prisoners who claim to be religious are faking. It's a gang thing and a money thing for them. They see the potential to make big money off it like the big religionists do. Only a few are sincere.

[kylyssa]

To Christian's credit, that might be the Atheist in the foxhole effect.

Look, as an atheist, a daughter of atheists, a sister of atheists, a third generation atheist, a person who has stared down death more than once herself this is one of the all-time most offensive ideas ever. Atheism means you don't think God is real.

My Grandfather fought in WWI, spent time in literal foxholes. You disrespect him.
My Father and my Uncle fought in the Korean War. You disrespect them.
My Father fought in Viet Nam. You disrespect him some more.
My Brother fought in Desert Storm, Bosnia, Afghanistan. You disrespect him.
My Sister-In-Law fought in Desert Storm. You disrespect her.

I have faced death by murder on no less than three ocassions. I can sincerely tell you there are atheists in foxholes. My thoughts didn't run, "God save me, I suddenly think you are real" but more like "oh ****, oh ****, oh ****" and "what can I do to thwart these fuckers or hurt them?" and "my poor Momma" or "I want my Momma" all with another decent helping of, "oh shit, oh shit, oh shit!"

While some would have been praying for God to save them I was figuring out how to save myself, how to get my hands on a knife, and in the case where it seemed hopeless - how to most hurt, unsettle, and unsatisfy my assailants.


To survive bad times both physically and emotionally you just need to get a grip on yourself. You are stronger than you think.

[stephenszpak]

I don't really understand your post Stephen.  I thought we were pretty much agreed that the old and new testaments together were pretty much fallacious and contradictory.  What I posit is that Atheism still lacks alternatives to religious guidance and prayer.  It's easy to point out the flaws in something made up centuries ago to control people, but its  about time we came up with a few things to serve as alternatives to those things religion still provides for people.  If nothing else, religion provides something for people to hold onto when times get tough.  Can't we do better?

The one thing religion may have actually done right is to point out all of those things people need besides food, water and shelter.

Mangala

Stephen wrote>

Perhaps a time out before things get more confused.

Mangala wrote> I thought we were pretty much agreed that the old and new testaments together were pretty much fallacious and contradictory.

Stephen wrote> You either have me confused with someone else or
I have failed to make myself clear. Either way I don't know
what post(s) you are refering to.

-Stephen

[lunarsolarpower]

    1.  A community of supportive people
    2.  Meaning
    3.  Purpose
    4.  Guidance during adverse times
    5.  Moral guidelines

I think #1 is a general down trend experienced in modern life. See the idea of Bowling Alone for more about this. On the other hand, technological socialization is flourishing. Myspace has over 100 million members and everyone seems to have a cell phone. I heartily recommend finding or building a real life community where you can thrive.

What are your thoughts about paradise engineering or "The Hedonistic Imperative?" I'm surprised it's not discussed more here. I suspect most current imminst members are strong-willed individuals who would rather take on the world unimpeded than descend into a drugged state when facing difficulties. However transhumanism does present the goal of a personalized utopian state.

Are you aware of the Free State Project? I would like to see a geopolitical region that was friendly rather than merely apathetic to immortalist goals. (OK, that was probably as O/T as anything elijah or stephen have contributed