191 replies to this topic

[amar]

Let's see, do I believe that we can make robots smarter than humans? A lot of it already is smarter than I, personally know (over my head), though I could comprehend it all if I have a few lifetimes to study.. oh wait, I have an eternity to study. Heh, hope this eternal life thing doesn't get damned. Robots will be made great. It will be a good year.

[william7]

OK, that was probably as O/T as anything elijah or stephen have contributed

I don't see how you or I were anywhere near off topic. My argument is that we already have a perfectly good God and the religion He gave us will adequately take care of the 5 items Mangala
raised that you mention in your post. The Bible just needs to be interpreted and applied correctly to do this.

Why would anybody want to waste precious time making up a new, atheistic religion with science and artificial intelligence as its objects of devotion. There's also the risk that you'll antagonize the God of the Bible who'll be angry at being replaced. The God of the Bible always punished the ancient Israelites severely whenever they strayed from Him and set up idols they made with their own hands as a replacement. See, for example, Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 32:15-22.

Many Scientists have come to the realization that a Creator God probably exists. There is much evidence for the existence of a Supreme Being who created everything. Checkout the video, at http://video.google......ll Don't Know, for example.

We can form a wise community of believers serving the God of the Bible by practicing Christ's teachings to the fullest extent possible. We can also obtain the full blessings of science and technology if we do things the right way.

[kylyssa]

OK, that was probably as O/T as anything elijah or stephen have contributed

I don't see how you or I were anywhere near off topic. My argument is that we already have a perfectly good God and the religion He gave us will adequately take care of the 5 items Mangala
raised that you mention in your post. The Bible just needs to be interpreted and applied correctly to do this.

Why would anybody want to waste precious time making up a new, atheistic religion with science and artificial intelligence as its objects of devotion. There's also the risk that you'll antagonize the God of the Bible who'll be angry at being replaced. The God of the Bible always punished the ancient Israelites severely whenever they strayed from Him and set up idols they made with their own hands as a replacement. See, for example, Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 32:15-22.

Many Scientists have come to the realization that a Creator God probably exists. There is much evidence for the existence of a Supreme Being who created everything. Checkout the video, at http://video.google......ll Don't Know, for example.

We can form a wise community of believers serving the God of the Bible by practicing Christ's teachings to the fullest extent possible. We can also obtain the full blessings of science and technology if we do things the right way.

You don't seem to understand what atheists are. Atheists are people who don't think God is real.

What good would doing lip service to something they don't think is real do? I have attempted belief in God before simply because I was jealous of the comfort it seemed to give others when their loved ones died. I tried - the big problem is that in my mind God is not real. Do you remember a time when you thought God was a lie, back before you believed it was real? Back when you were an atheist. Now explain what you did to convince yourself that God wasn't a myth just like Zeus or Loki or Coyote?

The fellow asking the thread starting question is putting forth a request as an atheist who recognizes that we created God to fill a human need - what can we do to replace this God we created when we realize it's just a construct of our emotions and imagination? Telling him "just believe in God" is not constructive. He doesn't. Atheists don't think God is real, that God is a lie. You are asking him to be false and untrue to what he thinks is real. You ask belief in a lie when he's already stated he rejected the lie.

So, yes, in evangelizing you are wildly off-topic.

[william7]

You don't seem to understand what atheists are. Atheists are people who don't think God is real.

What good would doing lip service to something they don't think is real do? I have attempted belief in God before simply because I was jealous of the comfort it seemed to give others when their loved ones died. I tried - the big problem is that in my mind God is not real. Do you remember a time when you thought God was a lie, back before you believed it was real? Back when you were an atheist. Now explain what you did to convince yourself that God wasn't a myth just like Zeus or Loki or Coyote?

The fellow asking the thread starting question is putting forth a request as an atheist who recognizes that we created God to fill a human need - what can we do to replace this God we created when we realize it's just a construct of our emotions and imagination? Telling him "just believe in God" is not constructive. He doesn't. Atheists don't think God is real, that God is a lie. You are asking him to be false and untrue to what he thinks is real. You ask belief in a lie when he's already stated he rejected the lie.

So, yes, in evangelizing you are wildly off-topic

I can't see how my trying to help other human beings avoid a disastrous course would be considered off topic. People are entitled to rethink their course of action and try another path. Scientists do it all the time. It's what change is all about. Atheists are not immutable to change for the rest of their lives. It's good to hear all sides and all options.

[kylyssa]

You haven't answered my question.

"Do you remember a time when you thought God was a lie, back before you believed it was real? Back when you were an atheist. Now explain what you did to convince yourself that God wasn't a myth just like Zeus or Loki or Coyote?"

If you can't answer that how is your evangelizing going to be of help?

[william7]

You haven't answered my question. 

"Do you remember a time when you thought God was a lie, back before you believed it was real? Back when you were an atheist. Now explain what you did to convince yourself that God wasn't a myth just like Zeus or Loki or Coyote?"

If you can't answer that how is your evangelizing going to be of help?

I don't recall a time in my life when I thought God was a lie. As a child I was obedient to parents and attended church. I just never considered the question of God's existence. I didn't come to an understanding of God untill 1989 when I was 36-years-old.

[kylyssa]

Then you understand that it is not the default position of humanity to believe in God. Belief in God is learned. Many people don't think God is real, they didn't learn of God early enough to believe in the fantastical.

The starter of the thread is one of those who doesn't think God is a real thing and is asking his question from that perspective. Telling him, "well just believe in God" answers nothing, because if he could believe in God, think God were real, don't you think he already would? If you think something is false someone telling you isn't going to suddenly change your worldview to one that holds their opinion to be true.

And I agree, making a "religion" of atheism is pointless, we just need to work on child rearing and society as a whole and the whole thing will take care of itself without making a non-thing into a religion. Atheism is a religion is like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

[william7]

"well just believe in God"

Factually inaccurate statement. Didn't offer such a solution in simplistic terms as that. I've been making reasoned statements in support of the existence of God and advising people to investigate the matter with an open mind.

If you think something is false someone telling you isn't going to suddenly change your worldview

I fully agree. All I'm trying to do is get others to give God some consideration. I realize it may take time and serious study before they can reach the right conclusion.

we just need to work on child rearing and society as a whole and the whole thing will take care of itself

Unless you intend to raise children under the conditions Elijah advises, your doomed to failure. See Malachi 4:4-6.

Atheism is a religion is like not collecting stamps is a hobby

From my understanding of Singularitarianism, it is atheists who want to create an artificial intelligence far superior to man's intelligence in order to solve all man's problems just like a god would. It's my job to warn people not to do this and risk angering the real God who doesn't like being replaced by what man has created.

[basho]

...it is atheists who want to create an artificial intelligence far superior to man's intelligence in order to solve all man's problems just like a god would.

a) Apparently it was God who started this whole mess in the first place
b) And he's been doing a rather crappy job running the show ever since
c) Resulting in more problems than ever for mankind

I say he's well overdue for retirement. Its time for mankind to grow up and realize that no supernatural entity is going to step in to save us from ourselves. We cannot rely on some absent god for our salvation. The fantasies of childhood need to be discarded if we are to face the world as it is.

It's my job to warn people not to do this and risk angering the real God who doesn't like being replaced by what man has created.

Seriously, how do you know that's your job? Maybe its just a hobby?

[Mangala]

Unless you intend to raise children under the conditions Elijah advises, your doomed to failure.

Woah, the way Elijah advises? You're referring to yourself in the third person. Very scary, just to let you know. I'll stick to my own opinions and let Elijah stick to his.

Everyone on this board is right Elijah. You're not needed here if you continue with the same sort of speech. Start another thread if you want to start arguing for Jesus and fire and brimstone. Most of us here have rock-solid Atheist beliefs that you won't have much luck changing on a short term internet discussion board.

Seriously, start another thread where we can discuss this. You've made your point that you believe a God can solve all of our problems. At least for the sake of discussion, stop repeating the same opinion. We're exploring and finding new ones.

[Mangala]

Look, as an atheist, a daughter of atheists, a sister of atheists, a third generation atheist, a person who has stared down death more than once herself this is one of the all-time most offensive ideas ever.  Atheism means you don't think God is real. 

My Grandfather fought in WWI, spent time in literal foxholes.  You disrespect him.
My Father and my Uncle fought in the Korean War.  You disrespect them.
My Father fought in Viet Nam.  You disrespect him some more.
My Brother fought in Desert Storm, Bosnia, Afghanistan.  You disrespect him.
My Sister-In-Law fought in Desert Storm.  You disrespect her.

I have faced death by murder on no less than three ocassions.  I can sincerely tell you there are atheists in foxholes.  My thoughts didn't run, "God save me, I suddenly think you are real" but more like "oh ****, oh ****, oh ****" and "what can I do to thwart these fuckers or hurt them?" and "my poor Momma" or "I want my Momma" all with another decent helping of, "oh shit, oh shit, oh shit!"

While some would have been praying for God to save them I was figuring out how to save myself, how to get my hands on a knife, and in the case where it seemed hopeless - how to most hurt, unsettle, and unsatisfy my assailants.


To survive bad times both physically and emotionally you just need to get a grip on yourself.  You are stronger than you think.

OK, YOU and your family may have had no problems grappling with God and death at the same time. The problem I posit is that many Atheists unlike you on the other hand DO go through this faulty faith syndrome when we encounter situations that are dangerous or emotionally taxing. I have had a couple bouts of depression in which out of desperation I ask for help from God if he exists. Why not? What's the alternative? I'd love to know - it's the point of this discussion. Yes, arguing that you would look for a way out of a dangerous situation is a good first step, but what if the situation was completely hopeless? What if you were faced with something that just by sheer probability you knew you had no chance to survive? Would you then keep searching for a way out completely disregarding the possibility that this is all one big simulation in which someone might be willing to help if you asked?

This is the problem. I am an Atheist. But Atheism is only a refutation of God, not a set of alternatives that cause someone to have rock-solid faith in there being no God. If times get tough, people will go back to religious teachings because Atheism provides mediocre comforts, and in the end leads people to the perhaps truthful but depressing thought that life has no meaning.

In order to defeat religion, we need to come up with something better. We're losing the anti-converted. They go to church and see a community of people offering supportive smiles and purpose in life and choose that over the depressing meaninglessness of Atheism.

It's much easier to believe the lies than to accept the truth. Can't we address this?

[Mangala]

What are your thoughts about paradise engineering or "The Hedonistic Imperative?" I'm surprised it's not discussed more here.

Interesting...never considered pain might not be necessary. The Hedonistic project still doesn't solve today's emotional problems, only future ones. But psychology might in fact be the Atheist alternative to the emotional problems of today.

[Mangala]

a) Apparently it was God who started this whole mess in the first place
b) And he's been doing a rather crappy job running the show ever since
c) Resulting in more problems than ever for mankind

Here here basho! Anyone who thinks a God who would let six million people get killed by killing machines during the Holocaust is a helpful force in life, I hope you have a plan B. [mellow]

[MichaelAnissimov]

Battle Royale! If our AI wins, God has to step down!

And Mangala, welcome back! I myself had to stop participating here for a year and a half at one point. Nice to have you around again. And now...

I came to the conclusion a while ago that Singulitarianism is therefore, for all intents and purposes, a religion.

WRONG. You view it as a religion, because you haven't exorcised religious needs from your mind yet. Once you become a Nietzchean ubermensch in the way you think about reality, you won't even think twice about needing a pastor to help you out when a nuke hits the city next door, or when your girlfriend runs off with someone else, or you get addicted to crack, or whatever.

Why does everyone feel the need to religionize Singularitarianism? Religion is a flawed belief system, based on the idea that a supernatural being pumped information directly into the minds of a bunch of primitive old men, which then wrote it down, to be a permanent set of laws forever... that's the central concept, but there are many others - like obeying your knowable flawed intuitions as if they are voices directly from God - that mean that the whole thing needs to be discarded. Think of Singularitarianism as the same thing as fixing a pipe, or something, if it makes it simpler... no need for any extraneous bullshit, if you want to grasp around for some type of spirituality, fine, but let's try to build an AI first (while not getting killed by nanotech along the way), then contemplate the vast spiritual significance of godlike ubiquitous intelligence. Our current efforts, severely lacking in Bayesianity, are doomed to failure.

From my understanding of Singularitarianism, it is atheists who want to create an artificial intelligence far superior to man's intelligence in order to solve all man's problems just like a god would. It's my job to warn people not to do this and risk angering the real God who doesn't like being replaced by what man has created.

With all the freedom of women and working on Sundays and neglect of blood sacrifices, I'd say he's already hopping mad! Here's a few select quotes from your magic book:

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:9
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

You can find more here.

"Unless you intend to raise children under the conditions Elijah advises, your doomed to failure. See Malachi 4:4-6. "

This totally disproved by the millions of successful authors, poets, scientists, artists, and Nobel Prize winners whose parents didn't give a shit about what Elijah said.

And Elijah... (not the prophet, but you, the dude), it's not that we have anything against you personally, but, why are you here? Because you typed immortality into a search engine and saw the forum? You should have kept moving to a forum with other religious scholars, so you can discuss these things on the same level. Historically, religious conversion relies on social pressure and instilling guilt, which can't be done too easily across the interwebs!

Again, I have nothing against you, and I'm sure you're a fine guy, but, there is a war right now, between atheists and theists, and it won't end until one side disappears. I don't think this will have to do with violence - reality will just confirm one way or the other in time. From personal observations, I can say that the youth is dropping out of the Church entirely, and raising nonreligious children. On the other hand, business is booming in Third World countries, where people couldn't tell you the difference between a proton and a Celeron if their life depended on it.

In any case, being on different sides of the war makes it impossible to communicate, no matter how hard we try.

BUT, there is still a Mormon Transhumanist Association, with a substantial document on the parallels between the two. (Even though I do not think they are fully reconciled.) And Dr. J, a leading figure in transhumanism, seems to believe that transhumanists should play nice w/ religion, while many others are indifferent, or, like myself, downright hostile to the idea that there is much overlap, except insofar as we are all human beings who can communicate to achieve common goals.

[Mangala]

Once you become a Nietzchean ubermensch in the way you think about reality, you won't even think twice about needing a pastor to help you out when a nuke hits the city next door

I haven't really read Nietzche although I know eventually I should. What particularly about his writing provides good emotional support that trumps...well nothing at all if you're not religious.

Why does everyone feel the need to religionize Singularitarianism?

As mentioned earlier, religion provides people with meaning and purpose in their lives that basic Atheism does not. Religious people aren't stupid, they're just scared of losing something that gives them great comfort in life. Some of the smartest people in the world are still religious. Why? Religions have pointed out to people something that they think they would otherwise miss in a seemingly meaningless universe.

Thus we will never be able to convert the religious until we provide them with a good alternative to the fire and brimstone story, indeed, an alternative to every aspect of life that religion tries to provides for.

The Singularity gives great comfort to me as an Atheist, as does evolution. These replace both goal and history that religion falsely provides. Therefore my open question is, can we replace all of it?

If we could, we could have a mighty strong faith capable of converting the religious much faster than the religious could convert us. Don't delude yourselves by believing all Atheists stay Atheists. We need something stronger.

We could provide real answers where religion just makes them up. Atheism, science, evolution, and Singuaritarianism are good beginnings in my opinion. Let's finish the whole thing.

Edited by Mangala, 03 January 2007 - 10:38 AM.

[DJS]

I haven't really read Nietzche although I know eventually I should. What particularly about his writing provides good emotional support that trumps...well nothing at all if you're not religious.

Beyond Good and Evil is a good starting point with Nietzsche./// *

* Edit/delete, thinking about it, Zarathustra actually wasn't really that early on (in relation to the totality of his academic career) but it did preceed four of his five other major works (BGE, OTGoM, Twilight, Antichrist - but not the gay science). For those unacquainted with Nietzsche, I definitely wouldn't start off with Thus Spake Zarathustra. The first time I read it with out any previous exposure to Nietzsche I was totally lost. BG&E gives some much needed context for what was the major thrust behind much of Nietzsche's writings.

Edited by Technosophy, 03 January 2007 - 11:44 AM.

[Mangala]

So far as alternatives I have:

Religon
1. God
2. Prayer
3. Creation
4. Moral guidelines
5. Heaven
6. Hell

Atheism
1. Singularitarian AI*
2. Action**
3. Evolution
4. Education
5. Singularity simulations
6. No Hell

*Not built yet
**Action sometimes not defined

The more we come up with, the better we can be at providing an alternative at the dinner table with our religious brethren.

[Mangala]

Beyond Good and Evil is a good starting point with Nietzsche. *

* Edit/delete, thinking about it, Zarathustra actually wasn't really that early on (in relation to the totality of his academic career) but it did proceed four of his five other major works (BGE, OTGoM, Twilight, Antichrist - but not the gay science).  For those unacquainted with Nietzsche, I definitely wouldn't start off with Thus Spake Zarathustra.  The first time I read it with out any previous exposure to Nietzsche I was totally lost.  BG&E gives some much needed context for what was the major thrust behind much of Nietzsche's writings.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to take a week off from the discussion reading Nietzsche and find he didn't really provide an alternative to the strong emotional ties religion provides. If nothing else, does Nietzsche give good alternatives to religion instead of refuting it? Please explain if so.

[basho]

Mangala, I found the following paper in the Journal of Evolution & Technology:

Trans-Spirit: Religion, Spirituality and Transhumansim
www.jetpress.org/volume14/latorra.pdf

and an article from the extropian perspective:

TRANSHUMANISM - Towards a Futurist Philosophy
Religion, Eupraxophy, and Transhumanism

[MichaelAnissimov]

If we could, we could have a mighty strong faith capable of converting the religious much faster than the religious could convert us. Don't delude yourselves by believing all Atheists stay Atheists. We need something stronger.

Yes, Science and Reason. Atheists do tend to stay atheists. Have you ever met a religious person that used to be a serious atheist? Did you ever meet a religious person who wasn't either 1) brainwashed through upbringing to believe in their religion, or 2) had some really shitty thing happen to them, that necessitated them joining the religion?

If we could, we could have a mighty strong faith capable of converting the religious much faster than the religious could convert us. Don't delude yourselves by believing all Atheists stay Atheists. We need something stronger.

Whatever... luckily everyone that proposes turning Singularitarianism into a religion doesn't actually go forth and take the necessary actions to make it so.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to take a week off from the discussion reading Nietzsche and find he didn't really provide an alternative to the strong emotional ties religion provides. If nothing else, does Nietzsche give good alternatives to religion instead of refuting it? Please explain if so.

He does, the alternative is iconoclastic intellectualism and self-determinism. Nietzsche is a standard author to consult for struggling atheists, much in the same way that the ravings of ancient Israelite cavemen are par for the course for theists.

There is a reason why 100% of the transhumanist cognoscenti are atheists or agnostics. It's not due to a herd mentality, because most of us had to struggle to become atheists, in the middle of a sea of cultural and familial opposal.

Why don't you read some Dawkins? You can read his book in a few days. Throwing away the crutch of religion is something that you can keep forever, once you are rid of it decisively.

Therefore my open question is, can we replace all of it?

Yes, with brain reengineering.

We could provide real answers where religion just makes them up. Atheism, science, evolution, and Singuaritarianism are good beginnings in my opinion. Let's finish the whole thing.

We'll ask the AI.

[MichaelAnissimov]

Mormon Transhumanist Association
http://transfigurism.org

Parallels and Complements Between Mormonism and Transhumanism
http://transfigurism...es/default.aspx

[basho]

The problem with being anti-God is that in decrying religion, one misses out on the good things religion can provide.

    1.  A community of supportive people
    2.  Meaning
    3.  Purpose
    4.  Guidance during adverse times
    5.  Moral guidelines

How about Zen?

Here's an interesting sentence from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on Japanese Zen Buddhist Philosophy:

Zen aims at a perfection of personhood.

Sounds quite compatible with transhumanism.

[william7]

First, let me say that I've never claimed to be the prophesied Elijah, who is to come and pave the way for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, like John the Baptist did for Jesus at His First Coming. I do, however, admit to being a strong admirer of both the prophet Elijah of the Old Testament and John the Baptist, who was in the spirit and power of Elijah, in the New Testament. Some time ago, I discipled myself to the prophet Elijah and focus intently on the Scriptures about him and can pretty much tell what he'll restore as prophesied. See Malachi 4:4-6; Matthew 17:10-13; 19:28; Acts 3:17-21. This is the next great phase in Christianity just before Christ returns.

Instead of making your own God through artificial intelligence with an atheistic science as your religion, why don't we just satisfy the demands of the God of the Bible and fulfill the Elijah prophecy - which will begin to put to death the demons of all those false religions that have been troubling you so much? There is much science and technology can do to help God put His Kingdom, under Jesus Christ, in place and to keep it on course during the Millennium. You could all disciple yourself, like me, to Elijah and form a transhumanist Elijah Society.

If you refuse to do what I suggest, I must warn you that you'll probably meet a similar fate as the false prophets of Baal did during Elijah's day and you'll more than likely plunge science and technology into another dark ages during the process. The world stage is currently set to do just that. The choice is yours and the stakes are very high.

This is my response to everybody above who responded to my previous post. I hope it's sufficient.

P.S. God is not a sadistical tyrant as some of you have suggested. It pained Him greatly that He had made man. See Genesis 6:5-13; 8:21. He is the Creator of all things and is behind the biological and socio-cultural evolution of man. He has been steadfastly educating and training man towards the day when he can live in peace and harmony with himself and his environment. God will not be thwarted in accomplishing this task. You should consider God to be the Great Scientist, who has had nothing but problems and heartache out of His creation, and seek to get with His scientific program.

[kylyssa]

The problem I posit is that many Atheists unlike you on the other hand DO go through this faulty faith syndrome when we encounter situations that are dangerous or emotionally taxing.

What on earth are you talking about? There's no faith involved in atheism. It's called reality. No faith is necessary in the presence of reality. Are you saying sometimes people hallucinate during times of stress? I just don't quite get what you are saying here.

It's like why would I suddenly believe in unicorns under stress? Even if it would be nice if a unicorn came galloping in to save me, stress isn't going to make a person believe that one will, even if they want a unicorn to save them.

[kylyssa]

Yes, arguing that you would look for a way out of a dangerous situation is a good first step, but what if the situation was completely hopeless?  What if you were faced with something that just by sheer probability you knew you had no chance to survive?  Would you then keep searching for a way out completely disregarding the possibility that this is all one big simulation in which someone might be willing to help if you asked?

Yes, I keep fighting until the lights go out. When I was too weak to struggle anymore I taunted and laughed at my assailants, when I couldn't get enough air I spat, then the lights went out. By the time the gun first struck my head I figured I was already fucked but it didn't make me hallucinate a God. Why would I search for a fairytale with reality prickling all around me? What's so hard about thinking of what you CAN do rather than fantasizing about a knight in shining armor coming to spirit you away? When I realized there was no way out I tried to figure out how to "own" the situation and go down the person I wanted to be, being true to myself. So I fought, because I'm a fighter. I laughed and taunted because I wanted them to feel powerless and because I couldn't manage to physically hurt them. I spat because it was all that was left. The noise I made probably attracted the attention that ultimately saved my life. Next time (if there is a next time) I'd probably concentrate on making lots of noise if disabling my assailants is completely out of the question again. I could probably make noise more efficiently.


If you are dying, unless I'm physically there to help you, I don't much care what you do - if you pray or if you fight. Maybe yell your "God help mes" so a bystander can hear and step in? It won't affect how you lived if you've lived true to yourself if the only time you hallucinate is just before death.

[kylyssa]

This is the problem.  I am an Atheist.  But Atheism is only a refutation of God, not a set of alternatives that cause someone to have rock-solid faith in there being no God.  If times get tough, people will go back to religious teachings because Atheism provides mediocre comforts, and in the end leads people to the perhaps truthful but depressing thought that life has no meaning.

Your problem is not atheism, your problem is depression.

My life is full of meaning. The meaning of life is life. I am a glorious accident somehow born with self-awareness. I can manipulate my environment to provide comfort and pleasure for myself and those I love. Now I live in an age where it's entirely possible that I can become MORE by my own self-determination and the help of my Brothers and Sisters. So much negative change has been forced on me by happenstance it's insanely wonderful glimpsing the edge of new horizons where I can dive into change, not because it's forced on me but because I choose it. So much has been out of our hands, we've wanted so much we could do nothing about. Perhaps soon I'll not only be able to provide support, comfort, and pleasure to all those I love, I'll be able to love all and we can do the same for each other.

With technology the blind are seeing again. Years back when I read about the earliest technologies for replacing sight I wept with joy. Examining the implications of technology, one day in 1994 I realized the paralyzed would walk, I couldn't catch my breath. I kept smiling all day. These things are wonderful but compared to what's to come they are but the first man learning to make fire.

If the end of suffering just over the hilltop does nothing for you how about novelty? Things are happening that have never happened before. Isn't that exciting?

Go find some joy. Even the pre-expanded human experience holds enough joy.

[stephenszpak]

kylyssa

kylyssa wrote>So I fought, because I'm a fighter. I laughed and taunted because I wanted them to feel powerless and because I couldn't manage to physically hurt them. I spat because it was all that was left. The noise I made probably attracted the attention that ultimately saved my life. Next time (if there is a next time) I'd probably concentrate on...

Stephen wrote> In an effort to met you where you are now I would
suggest a long and deep study of personal self-defense.
This includes, but is NOT limited to firearms, the knife,
small sirens, and much more. This is a real and complex
subject. (Yes I am serious.)
(The entire subject could/should? perhaps be started
in another forum.)

-Stephen

Edited by stephenszpak, 03 January 2007 - 09:20 PM.

[kylyssa]

kylyssa

kylyssa wrote>So I fought, because I'm a fighter. I laughed and taunted because I wanted them to feel powerless and because I couldn't manage to physically hurt them. I spat because it was all that was left. The noise I made probably attracted the attention that ultimately saved my life. Next time (if there is a next time) I'd probably concentrate on...

Stephen wrote> In an effort to met you where you are now I would
                        suggest a long and deep study of personal self-defense.
                        This includes, but is NOT limited to firearms, the knife,
                        small sirens, and much more. This is a real and complex
                        subject. (Yes I am serious.)
                        (The enire subject could/should? perhaps be started
                          in another forum.)

-Stephen

Actually, I began such training at my Daddy's knee. There are advantages to being the child of a paranoid, ex-military policeman. The situation I describe sprung from a misuse of authority and my innocent trust of authority figures which put me in an indefensible situation. I did reasonably well for a 100lb girl in handcuffs facing a couple of brutes with guns.

My point is to give it all you've got and accept that it might not be enough. Or to pick a course of action and pursue it, unflinching. Other than your life in the end there's nothing of self bad circumstances can take away that you didn't give to them. There are times you'll feel despair and times you'll feel powerless - you just need to accept that to be at peace being an atheist. The rest of the time you just need to do what you can do to push back the darkness. Don't bother with impossibilities, grab onto reality and use it.

[stephenszpak]

kylyssa (or anyone)

kylyssa wrote> What on earth are you talking about? There's no faith involved in atheism. It's called reality. No faith is necessary in the presence of reality.

Stephen wrote> This is exactly what this subject is about. What is reality?
No human can perceive reality. We can experience only
a sliver of it. I am *not* even speaking here of Heaven or Hell.
Just our senses. Even in something that we can see with our
eyes we can not always truly see. A person can stare at
a flower for hours and yet not see it opening, (as can be done
with time-lapse photography of course).

Why do so many people say there can't be more than this
reality? Perhaps this started decades or centuries ago with
some scientist saying: "We have no need to believe in God.
We live in modern times now, not like our ancestors.
Gosh they were stupid back then."

You know, a pride thing.


-Stephen

[kylyssa]

This invisible, untouchable, tasteless, odorless, silent thing - has it been caught with time lapse photography?

I believe in rain because it's something that exists according to the evidence of my five senses. There are enough wonderful things that are real and fulfilling, why hunt for a ghost? Why chase unicorns? Why seek the Loch Ness Monster?

I know my senses are not the most exquisitely honed sensing devices, but even such devices don't show God. They don't show unicorns either. Do you see what I'm saying - if something isn't real, comes from a story, what is the point of chasing after it in the absence of evidence when there's a whole lot of amazing reality to deal with?