259 replies to this topic

[stephenszpak]

Wow. So you had the picture. You opened it in Windows picture viewer, then took a screen shot of the open picture, saved it as a completely separate picture and then posted it? Talk about doing things the hard way...

================================================================

What? there's another way? -Stephen

[stephenszpak]

No, just that we won't define 'sin' the same way.  We could either agree that we're using the word to refer to things we both agree exist (i.e., actions which hurt you or hurt others), or we could agree that the word applies to contravening the commandments of whatever god we're discussing. 

My main point is that the two things are mutually exclusive.

One of the commandments in the Old Testament is 'do not rape'.

So is rape evil, or is it just a thing that "is"? Something that happens
from time to time.

-Stephen

[JonesGuy]

One of the commandments in the Old Testament was for the soldiers to go out and put all the men, women, children, and infants to the sword.

So is impaling babies 'sometimes' evil, and sometimes not? Is it a sin to disobey the prophet who tells you to stab babies? Or is stabbing babies while listening, or not listening, to prophets something that just 'is'?

If you want me to say there are some 'good ideas' in the OT, I won't disagree. But they're not all good ideas. For example, I think that encouraging incest amongst all the peoples ("go forth and multiply" ... who do you think Cain procreated with?) except the offspring of Abraham was a bad idea. OTOH, staying away from pork products and not raping people tends to be on the 'good idea' side of things.

[stephenszpak]

It seems most of you guys know the Old Testament better than I.
We do live during the New Testament time now.

Anyway too bad I get so few (if any) questions like:

Why would God send His only Son to die for me? Why would God have
His only Son that He loves, killed in such a merciless way, just for my
benefit? So I could enter Heaven.

-Stephen

[Live Forever]

Wow. So you had the picture. You opened it in Windows picture viewer, then took a screen shot of the open picture, saved it as a completely separate picture and then posted it? Talk about doing things the hard way...

================================================================

What? there's another way? -Stephen

I really hope you are joking.

[stephenszpak]

1) Press Print Screen
2) Start Irfanview
3) Paste
4) Save as "new picture"
4a) edit and/or enlarge if necesary
5) Upload to ImageShack
6) Put ImageShack newly created link into imminst post

[Live Forever]

1) Press Print Screen
  2) Start Irfanview
  3) Paste
  4) Save as "new picture"
    4a) edit and/or enlarge if necesary
  5) Upload to ImageShack
  6) Put ImageShack newly created link into imminst post

The point was, why didn't you just upload the original picture to Imageshack? (or wherever else that hosts pics) You went through way too many steps by opening the picture, then saving a screenshot of the picture as a completely different picture. It is like taking a picture of a picture.

It was just really, really odd, and I was just making an offhand comment which (I thought) was really easy to understand. (Perhaps the inability to grasp why taking a screenshot of a picture being displayed on your screen is odd instead of using the original picture is an indication of the thought process of someone that doesn't understand why using the Bible as the source of all that is divine because the Bible says that it is the source of all that is divine is circular reasoning?)

In any event, I really wasn't trying to derail the thread. Continue on please.

[Shannon Vyff]

From Elijah:
"For sincere Bible believers, the big focus of the Scriptures should be on how to put God's law and Christ's teachings into practice to the fullest extent possible to achieve a higher quality of life. The creation versus evolution debate is nothing but a distraction from the true purpose of the Scriptures."

'Is he having a Laugh?'

Ok, this thread was very funny--cause, well, didn't most of us know all this in high-school or at least by college? How the Bible was created over hundreds of years, was written in a verb based language (vs. our noun based language, and can hardly be taken literally at all), how there are equally important religious texts in other faiths? I went to Israel when I was 16 after studying the old and new testaments for months--then toured the various mentioned sites all being illuminated as to what we knew really, and didn't--by a devout Presbyterian guide. In college I took many classes about how the Bible evolved over time itself. My church now the First Unitarian Universalist Church of Austin, has a pastor (voted best preacher in Austin 05 by the Austin Chronicle, and published 'America Fascism and God) who is one of the Jesus Scholars. The are the definitive experts on what a man, that may have lived and been called Jesus--actually said or not. The are comprised of scholars from all different faiths, even fundamentalist Christians.

Well I was very proud at least that my 10 year old took the Beleif.net religion quiz last night and scored 100% secular humanist! And as we have no idea what happens when we die, I'm a cryonicist, so if any god ever turns out to be real--well I'll do good for them when I have some proof of their existence, until then I'm with science and what we can deduct as being 'real'

[stephenszpak]

Even if a particular train of thought can be twisted so as to end in our favour, you will find that you have been strengthening in your patient the fatal habit of attending to universal issues and withdrawing his attention from the stream of immediate sense experiences. Your business is to fix his attention on the stream. Teach him to call it "real life" and don't let him ask what he means by "real".

Screwtape (from Screwtape Letter I)
=================================================================
Keep in mind that the reality we perceive is just a sliver. I'm only refering to
the physical realm now. I've posted about this before so I don't want to repeat
myself too much.

Time is one example. We don't have any real idea what tomorrow will be like
for us. We have plans for tomorrow, but that's it. In a sense, tomorrow is as
though it is on the other side of the universe. Nor can we perceive the passage
of time as it moves. We always feel it as *now*. *Now* is all we can perceive.

Also, actually knowing that Jesus is alive is not something that can be revealed to
you by any man or woman, at any school or church.

-Stephen

[Aegist]

Even if a particular train of thought can be twisted so as to end in our favour, you will find that you have been strengthening in your patient the fatal habit of attending to universal issues and withdrawing his attention from the stream of immediate sense experiences. Your business is to fix his attention on the stream. Teach him to call it "real life" and don't let him ask what he means by "real".

Screwtape (from Screwtape Letter I)

Christians actually buy this rubbish?

God forbid, you should get confused by 'real life', it distracts you from what really matters.... the stuff you can't see hear feel touch or know. Yeah. Thats the real important stuff. C'mon.

I dunno why I bother talking to you, it's obvious we are different planes of existence....

[stephenszpak]

Does anyone know what danger lies ahead of them this year?
Even this day? Like *REAL* danger.

-Stephen

[mitkat]

Satan exists for real.

And he is trying to keep God out of California:
http://www.metacafe...._of_california/

I don't even have to click on that link to know what it is...I can see "jacka" in the link I felt bad how much I laughed during Jackass 2

[brokenportal]

You have a relationship with god by his grace? And you know god exists because why?

He has revealed Himself to me (and many others). -Stephen
===============================================
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

Jesus speaking (Gospel of John Chapter 6)

Stephen, with all due respect, and I really mean this, Im sure your smart in a lot of ways, probably a good person and maybe even a great person, youd probably be a lot of fun on a conoe trip and all but, your an idiot. I dont mean that in the insultive variety of the term. Just look at religion, use your own mind, use your own thoughts, dont use the ones they want you to use. Step back and look at it, its rediculous. Its a fun notion, but it doesnt make any sense. Its not logical. Its just stupid. You know theres a doubt in you that thinks religion may be wrong. Its there for a reason, let it in, its logic, and its trying to help you.

[JonesGuy]

Anyway too bad I get so few (if any) questions like:

Why would God send His only Son to die for me? Why would God have
His only Son that He loves, killed in such a merciless way, just for my
benefit? So I could enter Heaven.

I have no problem with the 'sunshine and puppies' versions of Christianity. If nothing else, I can realise the placebo effect of improving morale amongst believers. If it makes people happier, then I don't really care.

It just becomes an issue when they try to tell me that a clump of cells in a dish has a soul, and is more important than a person who is suffering. Dig?

[Aegist]

You have a relationship with god by his grace? And you know god exists because why?

He has revealed Himself to me (and many others). -Stephen
===============================================
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

Jesus speaking (Gospel of John Chapter 6)

Stephen, with all due respect, and I really mean this, Im sure your smart in a lot of ways, probably a good person and maybe even a great person, youd probably be a lot of fun on a conoe trip and all but, your an idiot. I dont mean that in the insultive variety of the term. Just look at religion, use your own mind, use your own thoughts, dont use the ones they want you to use. Step back and look at it, its rediculous. Its a fun notion, but it doesnt make any sense. Its not logical. Its just stupid. You know theres a doubt in you that thinks religion may be wrong. Its there for a reason, let it in, its logic, and its trying to help you.

LOL. Perhaps you could have chosen a less insulting word then BP? There are nicer ways of calling someone an idiot...

I think I need to tackle this issue with Cat actually. It is frustrating how she applies such rigorous logic to everything else, but the second we discuss religion, instantly her defensive gates go up, and everything the bible says is true because the prophecies given by the bible are accurate, and because they are accurate it proves the bible is true, and since that has been proven, there is no need to question the validity of the prophecies, they came from the bible, the book which she knows is true... etc There is a huge double standard there, and one day I am going to have to sit down with her and go through it properly, like we said we would when we got together...

[stephenszpak]

I guess no one wants in on the subject of 'danger'.

Why did so many people die yesterday that were young and
in good health and acted according to logic (rational judgment, etc)?

"He was in the wrong place at the wrong time." is the tired saying.
It means this guy didn't have a good perception of reality, that's all.
His faulty perception of reality resulted in an untimely death.

Examples:

hit by drunk driver
home invasion
lightning
slab of concrete from overpass falls on his car

The deaths caused by these events and many others didn't
start to happen in an instant by magic. The seeds of their
beginnings were planted seconds, minutes, or longer before
the lethal event took so n so's life.

The reason so n' so died is because of an incomplete perception
of reality. This is only refering to our physical realm here. These
matters aren't spiritual.

-Stephen

[eternaltraveler]

so i guess you have spider sense then Stephen?

Perhaps we should set up a controled experiment to test it

[stephenszpak]

so i guess you have spider sense then Stephen?

Perhaps we should set up a controled experiment to test it

I only perceive a sliver of this physical realm, like those here.

I thought my little post here stated what everyone already knew at
some level. That is, their almost complete ignorance of the world
around them.

-Stephen

[struct]

That is, their almost complete ignorance of the world
  around them.

talk for yourself stephen.

[stephenszpak]

That is, their almost complete ignorance of the world
  around them.

talk for yourself stephen.

Hope you're joking struct.

[struct]

no, I am serious!
Hope you get better.

[stephenszpak]

no, I am serious!
Hope you get better.

So you can't die unexpectedly against your will?

Can't die by tornado?

People just as smart as you die by this and similar
causes all the time. I can understand that if someone
doesn't believe in God they will attribute their continued
existence to something else. If you say that you've been
lucky, I can see where you're coming from.

-Stephen

[struct]

So you can't die unexpectedly against your will?

no!

Can't die by tornado?

no! (not even close)
because I am .........
UNDESTRUCTABLE! (you get it now?)

People just as smart as you die by this and similar
causes all the time.

give me an example of somebody like me that had died.

If you say that you've been
lucky, I can see where you're coming from.

I have been a little bit lucky. Now tell me where am I from?

[Aegist]

Stephen, are you trying to say that our imperfect knowledge of the universe is the reason we die?

What is your point?

[stephenszpak]

Stephen, are you trying to say that our imperfect knowledge of the universe is the reason we die?

What is your point?

People were saying/implying that there can be no spiritual realm,
("Demons can't exist cause I can't see them."
seems to be the take I'm getting.)

I was just trying to help people at least be a little humble here,
regardless if they believe in the existence of God and demons.

We (and me) have almost no knowledge of this physical realm.
The knowledge we have is so limited we can not even be sure
what mortal threats to our lives are ahead of us, looking ahead
just 24 hours, for example.

Reasonable people taking reasonable precautions to insure their
safety die each day. People just as smart and young as many here.
They didn't have enough knowledge of reality to know that they
shouldn't have been driving on a given road at such and such a
time. Now they're dead.

-Stephen

[Aegist]

but your philosophical point is completely ...nonsensical.

1. Invent Arbitrary conclusion A
2. Observe we know nothing.
3. Therefore conclusion A is (probably) true.

That seems to be the argument you are constructing...Ignoring the obvious uselessness of it, it can just s appropriately be applied to any imaginary, fantasy, extreme idea conceivable.

[dimasok]

stephenszpak
What does "people who die every day who weren't aware that some asshole would swerve at the intersection and ram into their vehicle" have anything to do with what you said about "not believing in demons based on the fact that these people don't see them"?

I'd take Pascal's Wager when it comes to this life. Either there is an afterlife or there isn't.

If there is an afterlife --> we nevertheless can't know that, so to shield ourselves of the other, less favorable option, we pursue every transhumanistic concept (extension of life (perhaps indefinitely), removal of old age & diseases, consciousness transfer, etc)). If we succeed, we surely would have a whole different reality with an infinite cornucopia of options to choose from to enrich each of our individual lives. It's a win win scenario because:

1) We protected ourselves from sliding off into a potentially non-existent afterlife.
2) We transcended biological limitations and ensured our infinite survival in the only reality we're cognizant off.
3) We're eventually bound to create our own artificial afterlife that could go beyond anything setup by God or nature (hell, we might even stumble on this afterlife with some advanced piece of technology whilst remaining at the comfort of our down-to-earth sits!)

If there is no afterlife... well, here I think no additional words are necessary... given the description above, again, we achieved (1) and (2) and (3) with no additional risks precipitated by this unknown and potentially dangerous belief.

You see, I'm completely ignorant here when it comes to existence in general, but I don't see how believing in an afterlife and waiting it out doing nothing would in any way or form siphon off into a salutary state of existence.

I might be content with my life now, but I know that the future is truly terrible and so I would like to hedge my bets in order to shy away from the brutal limits imposed by evolution (and Dawkins can keep aggrandizing this life forever for all I care because it's limitations are too much to take!!).

The problem I see with religion:
- They devalue this life in preparations for the next life to which they ascribe dubious and man-made qualities which I don't find appealing already (and ergo, why would I want to visit the Gods that seem more like Devils to me?). In addition to that, they preach to live this life whilst causing the most suffering to themselves and to their environments (Christianity, Islam, etc). Note: Buddhism and others like it are philosophies of life as far as I'm concerned and not religious teachings per se.

The problem i see with science/atheism:
- It is content with aggrandizing this life and how it came to be and selling it as a piece of "factual" & "educational" knowledge to ameliorate our lives. To me, knowing what they know and not doing something about it is a self-defeating, complacent and fiendish solution that would never suit my bill, not in a billion years.

Ergo the answer is transhumanism, a branch of science which actually attempts to find solutions instead of being self-content with fuzzy and undesired perspectives.

Edited by dimasok, 15 March 2007 - 05:44 AM.

[Aegist]

The problem i see with science/atheism:
- It is content with aggrandizing this life and how it came to be and selling it as a piece of "factual" & "educational" knowledge to ameliorate our lives. To me, knowing what they know and not doing something about it is a self-defeating, complacent and fiendish solution that would never suit my bill, not in a billion years.

Ergo the answer is transhumanism, a branch of science which actually attempts to find solutions instead of being self-content with fuzzy and undesired perspectives.

i think you are characterizing science/atheism into a corner which has very little to do with atheism and science. Science is just a philosophical approach to knowledge, atheism is just a stance on the 'God' question. Neither of them, in themselves, really say any more than that.

I am an atheist, and I think Science is the best philosophy for knowledge accrual, but that doesn't mean I use them to justify standing still. I use philosophy to justify moving forward, and use science as a tool to do that, and atheism really is a background thought. I don't 'pursue' atheism, or act on it. It just is. Much as you don't act on your A-teacup-ism...it just is.

[dimasok]

Aegist
Might be, but that wasn't my point with this post, as I'm sure you noticed

The reason I get so worked up about encapsulating science & atheism into one category is because of Dawkins.. after reading his book, he mentions a hell of a lot of times that he is an atheist and how science is the only demonstrable reality and we should all accept it as the truth, abolish religion, etc.

[stephenszpak]

dimasok wrote>

2) We transcended biological limitations and ensured our infinite survival in the only reality we're cognizant off.

Stephen wrote>



http://www.imminst.o...20
=============================================

dimasok wrote> What does "people who die every day who weren't aware that some asshole would swerve at the intersection and ram into their vehicle" have anything to do with what you said about "not believing in demons based on the fact that these people don't see them"?

Stephen wrote> I was trying to respond to one or more here that are sure
that this realm, the physical, is all there is. I was trying to
point out that even if you believe that, you still can only
perceive a sliver of it. What you perceive is not enough
in many cases to keep you alive. Perhaps the most basic
thing people here want. If any here are into critical self-assessment,
realizing there are some limitations you can't overcome, is
certainly a positive.


U.S. soldiers in Iraq die of hidden IEDs. This danger was
always there, that is the bomb.Yet they (we humans) couldn't
tell it was there. Humans don't have X-ray vision to see
through garbage etc. pilled on the side of the road, to know if
there is an IED there or not.

People in war or peace die of man-made or natural causes
(earthquake, bad weather, etc.). They often die because they
don't perceive this realm sufficiently to keep themselves alive.

It's probably the case that God doesn't seem to be moving
with the forum members. If that's true it's true. I certainly can't
give revelation knowledge out, I'm just a man. I do try to get
at least some people thinking about the things I write.

As far as the afterlife goes, from the Christian perspective,
if you don't receive salvation in this life you don't receive it ever.


-Stephen