60 replies to this topic

[william7]

Do you think all branches of Christianity are correct? Or have many of them got it wrong?

All of them are seriously flawed - some more so than others. This is not to say, however, that certain individuals within these churches aren't doing the best they can in spite of all the obviously false teachings and practices.

[Aegist]

The whole roast in hell bit is something they say a lot.

I've noticed that. There seems to be extreme glee at the anticipation that non-beleivers, and worshipers of false gods, will suffer eternal torment, pain, and horrible torture. There is no equivalent reciprocal feeling from atheists, and I'm sure we'd all feel terrible if someone like Elijah was suffering because of his beliefs.

From the Dawkins website I referred:

In her latest book "Godless," Ann Coulter writes "I defy any of my coreligionists to tell me they do not laugh at the idea of Dawkins burning in hell."

Bit hard to 'make up' that one....

The problem is that, in the minds of some Christians with these feelings, the "evil" people are dehumanized, and they would feel no remorse about discrimating against them, denying them help or medical care (e.g. contraception or abortions), or even killing them in rare cases.  It would be the will of God in their minds and, as such, they feel perfectly justified in their actions.

This really is standard fair in the "Us and Them" game. "Us" are good and worthy. "Them" are evil and inhumane, they are like animals. And hence killing "Them" is just like killing a cockroach.

[Aegist]

Do you think all branches of Christianity are correct? Or have many of them got it wrong?

All of them are seriously flawed - some more so than others. This is not to say, however, that certain individuals within these churches aren't doing the best they can in spite of all the obviously false teachings and practices.

Says you.
My fiance's family has some subtle differences to your interpretations, and they are dead certain that they are spot on, and everyone else is misguided and just doesn't understand the Bible at all. And seriously, my father in-law to be, he is a very smart guy who has dedicated many many years to studying the book, as the book (not as told by a pastor!)

But then they might be wrong too...because this guy I know, says that Jesus wasn't even God's Son, but he was just a prophet, and that Mohammed superceded his work anyway, and that Allah is the true God.... And I mean, he knows whis stuff.

but then, there is this group, in Utah....you might have heard of them, they're called Mormons. Turns out there was another prophet who corrected all of these false perceptions...



...Bah. what am I doing? Trying to convince you with the facts abundant in the real world? That will enver work will it? because we all know that anything which i canfind which is contrary to the Bible is just a trick set up by Satan, and not real evidence at all. ... [!]

[Live Forever]

just a trick set up by Satan, and not real evidence at all. ...  [!]

That Satan is pretty tricky. Just the other day he tied both of my shoe laces together. What a trickster!

[Aegist]

just a trick set up by Satan, and not real evidence at all. ...  [!]

That Satan is pretty tricky. Just the other day he tied both of my shoe laces together. What a trickster!

That wasn't satan. That was God. He's a prankster God!

[william7]

Says you.
My fiance's family has some subtle differences to your interpretations, and they are dead certain that they are spot on, and everyone else is misguided and just doesn't understand the Bible at all. And seriously, my father in-law to be, he is a very smart guy who has dedicated many many years to studying the book, as the book (not as told by a pastor!)

Post those differences. I'll see if I can't convince him I have the better understanding. We'll reason from the Scriptures together.

[Aegist]

We'll continue this in this thread: http://www.imminst.o...T&f=137&t=15113

[lion of judah]

It depends what religion i'm catholic and I can't commit adultry

[Aegist]

It depends what religion i'm catholic and I can't commit adultry

I bet you can if you tried hard enough.

[Live Forever]

I have been a big fan of Dawkins since early undergrad. The Selfish Genes is one of the best Pop Sci books I have ever read, and I highly recommend it to everyone (along with all of his other books, particularly the Blind Watchmaker for any evolution dubious people). But the Selfish Gene has single handedly sculptured my view of genetic evolution, things make so much more sense when you realise that evolution happens almost exclusively on a genetic level.

But this latest backlash by the Atheists against organised religion is long overdue, and I support it completely. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett.... The right place at the right time.

If you know very little about this, jsut go to you tube and search for any of those three, and start watching. VERY interesting stuff.

Yes, the so called "New Atheists" are very interesting indeed. Here is a Wired article on them I read a few months ago:
http://www.wired.com...11/atheism.html

Here is a PBS report (video included) on the "New Atheists" and the reaction to them:
http://www.pbs.org/w...1019/cover.html

[JohnDoe1234]

Those first few statements she said in the video spurred a little thought... Why is it that Abraham is allowed to use the "god told me to" excuse when he sacrificed his son, but that excuse is no longer valid in current society?

[cyborgdreamer]

Okay, so not all religious people are as crazy as the woman in the video but still...

Dictionary definition of delusion: [Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.]

[william7]

Okay, so not all religious people are as crazy as the woman in the video but still...

Dictionary definition of delusion: [Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.]

Yea, but it's the American Psychiatric Association who actually define what is a delusion and when it constitutes abnormal behavior. Many, if not most, psychiatrists and psychologists attend church or see religion and spirituality as a good thing. Do you think they're going to classify their own behavior as abnormal?

Then you also got to look at God's classificatory system. In Psalms 14:1 He inspired King David to say:

"The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good."

So, God says the nonbeliever is a fool and a criminal according to the laws and standards for behavior He established.

[basho]

So, God says the nonbeliever is a fool and a criminal according to the laws and standards for behavior He established.

So Elijah, if you follow God's word, then you must be advocating the imposition of punishments on these faith criminals. And I guess that extends to the billions of non-Christian believers too.

What I find interesting is the fact that God is powerless when it comes to instilling proper Christian faith amongst the majority of the Earth's population, and seemingly must resort to childish threats communicated via human mediums.

[Aegist]

Okay, so not all religious people are as crazy as the woman in the video but still...

Dictionary definition of delusion: [Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.]

Yea, but it's the American Psychiatric Association who actually define what is a delusion and when it constitutes abnormal behavior. Many, if not most, psychiatrists and psychologists attend church or see religion and spirituality as a good thing. Do you think they're going to classify their own behavior as abnormal?

Of course not, but thats part of being delusional They contradict themselves, and the facts state that their behaviours are delusional, yet they insist they are not. They are delusional by their own standards, yet they would deny it.

Then you also got to look at God's classificatory system. In Psalms 14:1 He inspired King David to say:

  "The fool says in his heart,
      "There is no God."
      They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
      there is no one who does good."

So, God says the nonbeliever is a fool and a criminal according to the laws and standards for behavior He established.

Well if something which I don't believe said that, well, then I better start believing!

What do you expect to achieve by making statements like this?

[william7]

So Elijah, if you follow God's word, then you must be advocating the imposition of punishments on these faith criminals. And I guess that extends to the billions of non-Christian believers too.

No, I'm not advocating any punishments. I'm advocating a way of organizing society so we will be able to keep God's law so we will not continue to suffer the punishments we automatically suffer when we break God's law. If we organize our society so we can live without privately held property and a system of money according to Christ's teaching in Matthew 19:21 and the early Christian Church's example in Acts 2:44,45; 4:32-35, we'll be able teach our children God's law and the rest of Christ's teachings so they'll be able to follow them perfectly without the need for any punishment. I pointed this out in the Christian communism thread at http://www.imminst.o...=0. People just have to learn to sacrifice a little bit of their so-called freedoms in the interests of the well being of all and in the interests of attaining a long and healthy life.

What I find interesting is the fact that God is powerless when it comes to instilling proper Christian faith amongst the majority of the Earth's population, and seemingly must resort to childish threats communicated via human mediums

No, He's not powerless. He's just on a different time schedule than we are. God has been actively shaping society so we can eventually live in peace and harmony and live long and healthy lives. We just have to learn the rules necessary for doing this and be able to grasp the evolutionary time schedule God is working under.

[william7]

Of course not, but thats part of being delusional  They contradict themselves, and the facts state that their behaviours are delusional, yet they insist they are not. They are delusional by their own standards, yet they would deny it.

I would like to see you try and tell a Bible thumping psychiatrist that. What kind of diagnosis you think he would put in your jacket?

What do you expect to achieve by making statements like this?

I hope to show some nonbelievers that there are different points of view when it comes to the Bible. There's man's point of view and there's God's point of view.

[Lazarus Long]

I hope to show some nonbelievers that there are different points of view when it comes to the Bible. There's man's point of view and there's God's point of view.

Just out of curiousity elijah how is it you claim to know god's point of view?

The bible?

The bible is man's point of view of what is thought is god's point of view. There is nothing divine about it. It was a historical record at one point that was later glorified through various negotiations into the modern text.

[Live Forever]

Just out of curiousity elijah how is it you claim to know god's point of view?

The bible?

The bible is man's point of view of what is thought is god's point of view. There is nothing divine about it.  It was a historical record at one point that was later glorified through various negotiations into the modern text.

Elijah might be interested in the "Who Wrote the Bible" program that was aired on television.

[cyborgdreamer]

Then you also got to look at God's classificatory system. In Psalms 14:1 He inspired King David to say:

  "The fool says in his heart,
      "There is no God."
      They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
      there is no one who does good."

So, God says the nonbeliever is a fool and a criminal according to the laws and standards for behavior He established.

You're presupposing that God exists. So you're basically saying 'If God exists, you should believe in Him' which is obvious; you should believe in anything that exists. But if He doesn't exist, believing in Him is irrational. Based on our current scientific understanding, the latter is more likely to be the case.

[Aegist]

So Elijah, if you follow God's word, then you must be advocating the imposition of punishments on these faith criminals. And I guess that extends to the billions of non-Christian believers too.

I'm advocating a way of organizing society so we will be able to keep God's law so we will not continue to suffer the punishments we automatically suffer when we break God's law.
...
People just have to learn to sacrifice a little bit of their so-called freedoms in the interests of the well being of all and in the interests of attaining a long and healthy life.

Now I get it!

I agree absolutely Elijah. We should just learn to give up our personal perceptions of what we think freedom means, and just go with what God himself says is right and true and good. Because it is only through following Gods word that we are able to realise truth!

So lets start with following this true word of God:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"

and this one:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"

Not to mention:

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)"

These personal freedoms we cling to are soo anti-christian. We really should just accept that some humans need to be traded and valued as monetary objects. That way, we can live in the world God truely wants us to live in. One where there are no personally owned objects....and ....personally....owned slaves....

hang on, isn't that a contradiction?

On one hand you say that God advocates no privately held property (through Mathew and Acts), yet the Bible clearly says:
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"
(And there is more where that came from. MUCH more: http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm)


So we have TWO examples of "No private property", and numerous examples of private HUMAN property.

I think you're misinterpretting the Bible dear friend.

No, He's not powerless. He's just on a different time schedule than we are. God has been actively shaping society so we can eventually live in peace and harmony and live long and healthy lives. We just have to learn the rules necessary for doing this and be able to grasp the evolutionary time schedule God is working under.

Yeah, different timetable alright!:
Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime.
"16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners.
"23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming.
"26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "

And all of these are repeated in mark:
Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. 9:1, Jesus shows that he is a false prophet by predicting his return and the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. 13:30, Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. 14:62


Now that most certainly is a different timetable to me. When someone repeatedly says 'I'll be back soon...' 'The end of the world is coming....soon...' ' You will see me, I'll just be right back', ...I'd actually expect results.

And here we are, 2 THOUSAND years later, and people are STILL, and always have been "You'll be here any moment...." "The end of the world is nigh"... "The apocolypse is coming".

I'll say 'god' is on a different timetable.

[Aegist]

Speaking of religion and being insane: http://www.smh.com.a...8390145325.html

The Virginia Tech gunman was possessed apparently. And his mum tried to help him by going to religious leaders.

Too bad there seems to be no evidence she actually tried to seek *real* help.

[william7]

Just out of curiousity elijah how is it you claim to know god's point of view?

The bible?

Both experience and the Bible. If it wasn't for that, I would be in your camp.

The bible is man's point of view of what is thought is god's point of view. There is nothing divine about it. It was a historical record at one point that was later glorified through various negotiations into the modern text.

That's what some say. Others say differently. Nonbelieving scholars do not have the advantage of Holy Spirit guidance during their study so they miss the truth of the matter.

[william7]

Elijah might be interested in the "Who Wrote the Bible" program that was aired on television.

I started watching it shortly after you posted it. I haven't been able to finish it yet. I'll try to post a response to it.

[Aegist]

That's what some say. Others say differently. Nonbelieving scholars do not have the advantage of Holy Spirit guidance during their study so they miss the truth of the matter.

This is circular reasoning like no other case of circular reasoning ever...

I think I am qualified enough to write a text book on this subject now. I have my example.

[william7]

'If God exists, you should believe in Him' which is obvious;

You're absolutely right. I had to go with the truth as it was shown to me. The Bible correctly understood and applied properly offers the best solution to world problems and is the only vehicle by which we will ever be able to live out substantially longer lives in a meaningful way.

[Live Forever]

Elijah might be interested in the "Who Wrote the Bible" program that was aired on television.

I started watching it shortly after you posted it. I haven't been able to finish it yet. I'll try to post a response to it.

Sounds good. I realize it is longer than most programs at almost 2 hours. I eagerly await your response.

[Aegist]

'If God exists, you should believe in Him' which is obvious;

You're absolutely right. I had to go with the truth as it was shown to me. The Bible correctly understood and applied properly offers the best solution to world problems and is the only vehicle by which we will ever be able to live out substantially longer lives in a meaningful way.

Wow you don't get it at all.

[william7]

Now I get it!

I agree absolutely Elijah. We should just learn to give up our personal perceptions of what we think freedom means, and just go with what God himself says is right and true and good. Because it is only through following Gods word that we are able to realise truth!

So lets start with following this true word of God:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"

and this one:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"

Not to mention:

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)"

These personal freedoms we cling to are soo anti-christian. We really should just accept that some humans need to be traded and valued as monetary objects. That way, we can live in the world God truely wants us to live in. One where there are no personally owned objects....and ....personally....owned slaves....

hang on, isn't that a contradiction?

On one hand you say that God advocates no privately held property (through Mathew and Acts), yet the Bible clearly says:
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"
(And there is more where that came from. MUCH more: http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm)


So we have TWO examples of "No private property", and numerous examples of private HUMAN property.

I think you're misinterpretting the Bible dear friend.

The examples of slavery you give were taken from the Old Testament describing practices occuring under the old covenant. You must remember God had the task of training a rebellious, stiff-necked, and hard hearted people - as He described them - just released from a very brutal slavery in Egypt where they had picked up a lot of bad ideas. Just like those black slaves in America in the 1800s, who when released from slavery returned to Africa and enslaved the blacks who they considered inferior to them, so the Israelites were prone to enslaving their own people and God didn't want this to happen. This is why He gave the law permitting the enslavement of foreigners but not Israelites.

The New Testament verses you quote are teachings from Paul's letters. None of this condones slavery, but is wise advice on how to endure under injustice according to Christ's teaching to not resist evil persons. See Matthew 5:39-41. Paul had no wealth or property and was persecuted by the same people who practiced slavery during the New Testament era - the Romans. See 1 Timothy 6:6-8.

As I believe I've pointed out to you in the past, God is opposed to corruption, violence, and oppression as can be seen in Genesis 6:5-12. It's been His plan from the start to build a great Christian civilization on the basis of His laws where the people will be able to live in peace and harmony and live long, healthy and happy lives beyond what we live today. See, for example, Genesis 3:14-15 (this is a prophecy of Christ's eventual victory over Satan the serpent); Isaiah 2:1-5; 42:21; 65:20-25; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 11:16-20; Malachi 4:1-6; Matthew 22:36-40; 23:23; James 1:25; Revelation 21:1-4 (death is eventually conquered after Christ's thousand year reign is up when God Himself comes to earth to be with man).

Yeah, different timetable alright!:
Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime.
"16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners.
"23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming.
"26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "

And all of these are repeated in mark:
Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. 9:1, Jesus shows that he is a false prophet by predicting his return and the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. 13:30, Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. 14:62


Now that most certainly is a different timetable to me. When someone repeatedly says 'I'll be back soon...' 'The end of the world is coming....soon...' ' You will see me, I'll just be right back', ...I'd actually expect results.

And here we are, 2 THOUSAND years later, and people are STILL, and always have been "You'll be here any moment...." "The end of the world is nigh"... "The apocolypse is coming".

I'll say 'god' is on a different timetable.

Again, you miss the key Scripture. Read Matthew 24:36-37; Acts 1:1-11 carefully. This shows that Jesus did not know exactly when He would return. Only God the Father knew the time this would occur. Many assumed this would be very soon, and Christians are obligated to conduct their lives as if Christ's return was imminent.

[Aegist]

Now I get it!

I agree absolutely Elijah. We should just learn to give up our personal perceptions of what we think freedom means, and just go with what God himself says is right and true and good. Because it is only through following Gods word that we are able to realise truth!

So lets start with following this true word of God:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"

and this one:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"

Not to mention:

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)"

These personal freedoms we cling to are soo anti-christian. We really should just accept that some humans need to be traded and valued as monetary objects. That way, we can live in the world God truely wants us to live in. One where there are no personally owned objects....and ....personally....owned slaves....

hang on, isn't that a contradiction?

On one hand you say that God advocates no privately held property (through Mathew and Acts), yet the Bible clearly says:
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"
(And there is more where that came from. MUCH more: http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm)


So we have TWO examples of "No private property", and numerous examples of private HUMAN property.

I think you're misinterpretting the Bible dear friend.

The examples of slavery you give were taken from the Old Testament describing practices occuring under the old covenant. You must remember God had the task of training a rebellious, stiff-necked, and hard hearted people - as He described them - just released from a very brutal slavery in Egypt where they had picked up a lot of bad ideas. Just like those black slaves in America in the 1800s, who when released from slavery returned to Africa and enslaved the blacks who they considered inferior to them, so the Israelites were prone to enslaving their own people and God didn't want this to happen. This is why He gave the law permitting the enslavement of foreigners but not Israelites.

Oh Poor god! Poor little god, can't get his people to do what he wants? Why doesn't he just kil everyone and start over! Oh thats right, he promised not to after the first time he did that. Well he's supposed to be GOD, why doesn't he take control and tell them what he wants? I mean, if I was an isrealite, I might get confused by these lines, and think that god *actually* condoned slavery. God should be much more clear with his instructions!

...actually, forget it. i couldn't be bothered. This is a joke, any clear headed person can see it is a joke...and you're never going to look at it clearheadedly. you will always do you best to ensure you enver see what is written, but only what you are supposed to believe/want to beleive. Good for you. Carry on in your delusion, i give up. I got important stuff to do.