68 replies to this topic

[eldar]

"At least 21 people were killed Monday in twin shootings on the Virginia Tech campus -- the worst school shooting incident in U.S. history.
"Some victims were shot in a classroom," university police Chief Wendell Flinchum said. The lone gunman is also dead, Flinchum added."

http://www.cnn.com/2...ting/index.html


Anyone study at virginia tech?

What the hell makes people do things like this [ang]

[Brainbox]

It gets a wide coverage on the Dutch media as well. Horrifying, especially when you hear some of the details. Beyond any form of comprehension if you ask me. [sad]

[Lazarus Long]

Another Bloody Monday.

What the hell makes people do things like this

Do you really want to comprehend the madness?

Virginia is one of the most gun happy states in the east, and the states where the worst shootings have occurred have tended to have the most liberal gun laws too; Texas, Colorado, Virginia. There are far more reasons than the gun laws and I am sure the forensics will delve deep into the perps' psyche and history before the dust settles on this one but it is tragic nonetheless.

The Austin shooting by Charles Whitman in 1966 was on a Monday (Aug 1st) and then later on a Monday one of the earlier school massacres was the basis of the lyrics for the song "I don't like Monday" by the Boomtown Rats. The title comes from the reason that the young woman, Brenda Spencer, a 16-year-old San Diego high school student who lived across from an elementary school gave for killing. On Monday, January 29, 1979, she opened fire on the school with a rifle, killing 2 adults (including the principal) and injuring 9 kids before going back to her home.
http://www.songfacts...tail.php?id=698

BTW the expression; Bloody Monday comes from an election riot in Kentucky in 1855 with anti-Catholic overtones.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Bloody_Monday



.

[Lazarus Long]

BTW here are the lyrics and a music video

Lyrics for: I Don't Like Mondays

The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody's gonna go to school today
She's going to make them stay at home
And daddy doesn't understand it
He always said she was as good as gold
And he can see no reason
Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot
The whole day down
The telex machine is kept so clean
As it types to a waiting world
And mother feels so shocked
Father's world is rocked
And their thoughts turn to
Their own little girl
Sweet 16 ain't that peachy keen
No, it ain't so neat to admit defeat
They can see no reasons
Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot
The whole day down
All the playings stopped in the playground now
She wants to play with her toys a while
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning
And the lesson today is how to die
And then the bullhorn crackles
And the captain crackles
With the problems and the how's and why's
And he can see no reasons
Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die
The silicon chip ...
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot
The whole day down

[Mind]

Virginia is one of the most gun happy states in the east, and the states where the worst shootings have occurred have tended to have the most liberal gun laws too; Texas, Colorado, Virginia. There are far more reasons than the gun laws and I am sure the forensics will delve deep into the perps' psyche and history before the dust settles on this one but it is tragic nonetheless.

The murder capitals of the U.S. (highest per capita gun homicides) are in the places where gun restrictions are the highest (where guns are banned in most cases), New York, Washington D.C., New Orleans, L.A., etc... The lowest gun death rates are in states with conceal and carry laws. It has been this way for decades and decades. To cast this as a gun-control issue before all of the facts are known and before even 24 hours has passed is wrong in my view.

Anyway, I find that these things make me more saddened and depressed than in years past. I even get struck by the Sunni vs. Shia violence in Iraq, even though some of them seem to long for a "heavenly suicide death". I find it more tragic, I think, because I am more optimistic that death and aging can be conquered. It is such a waste to see a life go down to violence like at Virginia Tech today. When young people are killed, especially in a violent manner, it just seems extra tragic nowadays. Does anyone else feel that way?

[Karomesis]

What the hell makes people do things like this

evo psych often has interesting things to say about human to human homicide.

http://homepage.psy....of_homicide.pdf

perhaps he saw himself a lower in percived mate value or lost status. Both of which can trigger violent reactions in young males,especially those who are at the bottom of the heirarchy structure.

my other guess would be he lost a girlfreind. But that usually results in the female recieving the brunt of the violence.

http://homepage.psy....ord_PR_2005.pdf

[Lazarus Long]

The murder capitals of the U.S. (highest per capita gun homicides) are in the places where gun restrictions are the highest (where guns are banned in most cases), New York, Washington D.C., New Orleans, L.A., etc... The lowest gun death rates are in states with conceal and carry laws. It has been this way for decades and decades. To cast this as a gun-control issue before all of the facts are known and before even 24 hours has passed is wrong in my view.

For the record Mind, Milwaukee and Detroit are among the worst cities for murder, with New Orleans at the top of the list. Las Vegas and Houston are both worse in terms of per capita murder than New York City by far.

http://www.infopleas...a/A0004902.html

In terms of states, Arizona, Texas, Nevada and Florida, as well as most other southern states rank far worse than New York for both violent crime in general and homicide in particular. BTW, per capita the capitol (DC) is number one and yes it has some strict gun control laws but is surrounded by lax ones and Puerto Rico is 2nd and they have some pretty strict rules too but the myth about New York is that we have it so dangerous here. Actually per capita wise it is far worse in Nevada, Arizona, Texas and Florida etc; all states with far more lax gun control laws.

http://www.infopleas...a/A0004902.html

It is a separate topic but I have some theories about why it is so dangerous in PR too.

[Lazarus Long]

BTW here is another point on the difference of perspective on the character of homicide between state cultures. In particular what it describes is the emotional aspect of gun ownership that is contributing to a significantly higher murder rate in southern states with lax gun laws and it is because basically it boils down to people are resorting to guns in those states more to resolve personal disputes.

The article is old but the statistics have actually only changed for the worse in the southern states. Oh and yes I am a Yankee. )

http://findarticles....v94/ai_21020057

South's high murder rate is key factor in why U.S. homicide rate is so high - Lifestyles - Brief Article
Jet,  August 17, 1998 

The Federal Bureau of Investigation found that Southern states have the highest murder rates.

And experts believe the high Southern murder rate is a key factor behind America's high homicide rate in comparison with other democratic, industrialized nations, according to an article in The New York Times.

They note that much of the distinction in murder rates between the South and other sections of the country comes from a difference in the character of Southern homicide.

It was found that many murders in the South are of a personal and traditional nature such as a barroom brawl, a quarrel between acquaintances or a fight between lovers. In other places, the newspaper reported, homicides usually begin with another crime like a botched robbery, and typically involve strangers.

In 1996, the U.S. murder rate was 7.4 per 100,000 people. The rate that same year state by state showed 12 of the 20 states with the highest murder rates are in the South.

States topping the list of murders per 100,000: Louisiana (17.5), Mississippi (11.1), Alabama (10.4), Tennessee (9.5) and South Carolina (9.0).

The problem has shifted since ten years ago but the worst states are still in the south only they tend to be southwest now as well and by far more often in states with lax gun law.

[Lazarus Long]

I find it more tragic, I think, because I am more optimistic that death and aging can be conquered. It is such a waste to see a life go down to violence like at Virginia Tech today. When young people are killed, especially in a violent manner, it just seems extra tragic nowadays. Does anyone else feel that way?

Yes, on this point we fully agree Mind and I will only add that I suspect as we are hearing more of the sketchy details that there is personal motive involved. It appears this was triggered by a "domestic dispute" in the morning that became at least some targeted shootings later. The dominant phrase that comes to mind for me is tragic waste as well, especially when some of these may have been the *best and brightest* as they are called.

[advancedatheist]

BTW here is another point on the difference of perspective on the character of homicide between state cultures.  In particular what it describes is the emotional aspect of gun ownership that is contributing to a significantly higher murder rate in southern states with lax gun laws and it is because basically it boils down to people are resorting to guns in those states more to resolve personal disputes.

That damned Scotch-Irish culture in the South makes it so irrationally violent over questions of "honor." (I come from a long line of poor white Southerners, BTW.) Thomas Sowell even blames Scotch-Irish culture as the source for the dysfunctional aspects of Southern black culture (in his book Black Rednecks and White Liberals).

[Live Forever]

This is sad. It reminds me of my freshman year when there was a shooting on the campus I was attending at the time (University of Arkansas) and several people were killed. (thankfully not as many as this one)

The total is now up to 33 dead, it says in the article.

How can people be so cruel to each other?

[JMorgan]

Yeah, New York City has gotten a bad rap from the decay and crime of the 70's and 80's, but we're pretty safe now by comparison. LA and DC are far more dangerous.

But, I do believe this will be made out to be a gun control issue. I'm surprised we haven't seen experts on the news talking about it yet, but I suppose that will all come in the next few days. This event will only tighten the restrictions of the 2nd amendment throughout the country.

[samson]

Why do you even need guns, people? Is your country so unsafe place that you need to personally defend yourself with a gun?

As for the article... Christ. Somebody has a baaad case of Mondays.

[Live Forever]

It is all because of the video games (those evil things):
http://kotaku.com/ga...ames-252702.php

[niner]

Why do you even need guns, people? Is your country so unsafe place that you need to personally defend yourself with a gun?

Well, yeah. At least some people think so. Parts of this country are clearly unsafe. People were always getting shot where I grew up. Then again, where I live now I could leave my keys in my car with a wad of cash on the front seat and nothing would happen. Even so, all the moms around here want to keep their kids locked in the house. I'd say America is mostly safe with pockets of extreme danger. It does seem like the south or communities that migrated from there are foci of much of the violence- that was an interesting observation, y'all. This latest massacre, it's just a tragedy. An American Tragedy.

[RighteousReason]

just makes me wish i had the money to buy some defensive weaponry... fool would pop up hollerin about killing people and crap and i'd pop his head off in .2 seconds... end that shit right quick, no massacre today kids...

[RighteousReason]

simple as that.

[RighteousReason]

and where the hell did you get 21?

31 people dead, including the gunman (+2 in the dorms, possibly not connected)

[Live Forever]

and where the hell did you get 21?

31 people dead, including the gunman (+2 in the dorms, possibly not connected)

They kept updating the numbers; 21 was an earlier figure that had been given before all the facts were known I think.

Also, the fact that it was 2 different locations was kind of strange. Maybe they will get to the bottom of it and let us know.

[AdamSummerfield]

I read that there was 2 hours between when the gunman struck the dorms and then the classrooms.

[Live Forever]

I read that there was 2 hours between when the gunman struck the dorms and then the classrooms.

On the CNN webpage it says they think it might be 2 different gunmen working together. When they asked the university president why he didn't close down the school for the day after the first shooting, he stated that he was told by the police that it was an isolated incident. It is very odd that there was one shooting and then another.

[RighteousReason]

Seung Hui Cho, a permanent resident of the United States, a Korean national and a Virginia Tech student has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead on the Virginia Tech campus Monday, ABC News has learned.
The student left a “disturbing note” before killing two people in a dorm room, returning to his own room to re-arm and entering a classroom building on the other side of campus to continue his rampage, sources said.
Cho’s identitiy has been confirmed with a positive fingerprint match on the guns used in the rampage and with immigration materials. It is believed that he was the shooter in both incidents yesterday. Sources say Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol, sources said. Witnesses had also told authorities that the shooter was carrying a backpack. Sections of chain similar to those used to lock the main doors at Norris Hall, the site of the second shooting that left 31 dead, were found inside a Virginia Tech dormitory, sources confirmed to ABC News.

http://hotair.com/ar...-seung-hui-cho/

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

[modelcadet]

Apparently, this guy was leet with small arms. I honestly think neither more strict gun laws (nor more liberal laws) would play any factor in mass murders like this. Although there's much to be seen, this guy most likely called bomb threats to observe police behaviors. He bought at least one of the guns just the Friday before, but if he was this methodical over the course of a few weeks, what's to say he wouldn't have been just as methodical about purchasing his sidearms earlier.

I feel like there was probably one shooter... that he killed two people intending to divert police forces away from his main target area.

I don't know if violent video games are to blame... I've been playing Grand Theft Auto 2, and there's a "University" area on one of the maps... which is chilling. I feel like, as a society, we are experiencing asymmetric evolution, causing a lot of stress. I feel our increasingly capitalist/atheist society is contributing to a serious sense of Existential loneliness. Unfortunately, we've so much abandoned investing in our future that many children aren't able to navigate this chilling philosophy in constructive ways.

[Live Forever]

I wonder what makes someone snap like this. I would like to see what is in this "disturbing" note that he left; Perhaps they will release the contents at some point.

[mitkat]

and where the hell did you get 21?

31 people dead, including the gunman (+2 in the dorms, possibly not connected)

21 was the number that I heard from initial reports also, funny how news evolves so quickly sometimes. I wish we had one of you in every school to defend us, Arnold.

I mean, Hank.

[Lazarus Long]

The issue of Virginia's lax gun laws is currently the subject of interstate litigation as they are the source of many weapons that are involved in crimes in the northeast, NYC in particular. So much so that Virginia State government, and individually owned gun shops have been sued by the city of New York and our State Attorney General is considering interstate charges involving liability for negligent enforcement of State and Federal law.

The subject has been in the news quite a bit of late and in particular the argument has been that it was too easy to not only obtain common firearms but a slew of high powered weapons and ammo without sufficient background checks. There have been stings recently that have supported these allegations and I suspect we will all be hearing a lot more about this in the coming days.

[mitkat]

The issue of Virginia's lax gun laws is currently the subject of interstate litigation as they are the source of many weapons that are involved in crimes in the northeast, NYC in particular.  So much so that Virginia State government,  and individually owned gun shops have been sued by the city of New York and our State Attorney General is considering interstate charges involving liability for negligent enforcement of State and Federal law.

The subject has been in the news quite a bit of late and in particular the argument has been that it was too easy to not only obtain common firearms but a slew of high powered weapons and ammo without sufficient background checks.  There have been stings recently that have supported these allegations and I suspect we will all be hearing a lot more about this in the coming days.

Laz, for what legitimate reasons are high powered weapons available commercially? I understand rifles for hunting, but anything more powerful and/or concealable available is asking for someone to use it in a illicit manner.

[Lazarus Long]

I guess some people think you need a 50 caliber weapon for duck hunting. [wis]

Perhaps a wild pig's thick hide justifies armor piercing rounds in their minds too.

Actually, sarcasm aside the issue of hunting is really specious to the 2nd amendment argument and I am very confident that the Supreme court will be getting the recent DC Federal court decision separating the right to arms from the question of militia regulation.

Basically we are still a primitive culture.