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Gunman kills at least 21 at Virginia Tech


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#31 Live Forever

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 04:47 PM

I like to go snipe hunting with my automatic weaponry.

#32 Guest_ato abe_*

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 04:49 PM

I don't know if violent video games are to blame... I've been playing Grand Theft Auto 2, and there's a "University" area on one of the maps... which is chilling.  I feel like, as a society, we are experiencing asymmetric evolution, causing a lot of stress.  I feel our increasingly capitalist/atheist society is contributing to a serious sense of Existential loneliness.  Unfortunately, we've so much abandoned investing in our future that many children aren't able to navigate this chilling philosophy in constructive ways.


I have to agree and disagree. I'm not sure that one can blame capitalism, atheism or existentialism for such an extreme sociopathic act. This guy was not a child. At this point is one's life, one must have set down some kind of personal moral basis in which to conduct one's self as one goes through life; a morality that one builds on. This guy's was ovbiously askew and probably from a very young age...possibly triggered by some sort of isolation, which no doubt we've all experienced, it is just a matter of how one decides to deal with it.

#33 shadowrun

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 06:07 PM

The same way they require medical check-ups before college (people with TB are not allowed on campus)...they should require psychological examinations - (Independent diagnoses at the expense of the student)

People with extreme fringe or dangerous personalities should not be on a college campus

Based on my experiences in college there were quite a few interesting characters one did not feel very safe around - People who'd sit alone at lunch and talk to themselves or guys we knew who would cut themselves and pull out their own hair

- I often wondered where these individuals went when they entered society - And I know they don't need to be shunned anymore than they already are

I'm not trying to pick on a specific type of person or situation - And I have no idea on the criteria...or who gets a pass or fail.

But having been an introvert myself there is nothing wrong with loners, geeks or other "creative" types on a college campus - But we need to keep the outliers, the dangerous people (to themselves and others) off of campus

Any institution that requires you to pay to belong - Needs to ensure the safety of the people that pay into the institution...
At this point I can only imagine the ramifications for Virginia Tech

I definately think this guy had red flags that the school community should have known about before he entered campus and the universities selective criteria should extend to psychological health

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#34 maestro949

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:11 PM

Gun laws aren't the answer but they would certainly help curtail those of the less imaginative but only if they were universally implemented. What good is it if one region of the world or country bans them but others don't?

Besides the gun issues, there are so many ways to inflict large casualties on others that you can't go stamping out each and every one of them. Imagine if someone in the following professions "snapped."

Water Supply engineer
Food distributor employee
Drug manufacturer employee
Biochemist
Airline Pilot
Someone with access to nuclear material
Former military personnel with explosives access and experience
Bus Driver
Miner
Pharmacist

Hardly an exhaustive list. Remember what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols accomplished with fertilizer and a few other chemicals.

Edited by maestro949, 17 April 2007 - 08:40 PM.


#35 Mind

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:37 PM

One answer to your question Mitkat, is that the U.S. was founded with a rebellious ethos, rebelling against tyrannical regimes of Europe. At least that was part of the rallying cry during the time of the revolution. Some of the founders believed the best way to prevent too much power from being concentrated in government hands was to have an armed citizenry (and really, in the long historical view, dictators ruling over a mostly disarmed citizenry have created great rivers of human blood that yet stain great swaths of the earth, think Mao, Stalin, etc.). Anyway, this ethos of gun rights/state rights/independence is still strong in many areas of the country. I live in a state where gun ownership is high but the violent crime rate is very low. I feel quite safe where I live.

#36 mitkat

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:48 PM

One answer to your question Mitkat, is that the U.S. was founded with a rebellious ethos, rebelling against tyrannical regimes of Europe. At least that was part of the rallying cry during the time of the revolution. Some of the founders believed the best way to prevent  too much power from being concentrated in government hands was to have an armed citizenry (and really, in the long historical view, dictators ruling over a mostly disarmed citizenry have created great rivers of human blood that yet stain great swaths of the earth, think Mao, Stalin, etc.). Anyway, this ethos of gun rights/state rights/independence is still strong in many areas of the country. I live in a state where gun ownership is high but the violent crime rate is very low. I feel quite safe where I live.


Thanks Mind and Laz...so if you live a democracy that is no longer under seige from Britian, why are people buying high caliber rifles and automatic weapons? Habit? I'm not being sarcastic, it's just an idea that is really foreign to me...I'm through mocking the meme, I'd like to understand it more.

Edited by mitkat, 17 April 2007 - 09:02 PM.


#37 OutOfThyme

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:52 PM

Gun control will be revisited and scrutinized heavily from this recent incident, no doubt.

A firearm at one time was vital for survival and protection; as important as a car might be to someone living in the suburbs, today.

A gun permit should be tough to get and storage needs to be carefully considerated. Killing is facilitated with a gun due to the lack of intimacy with the subject and its ease of use. A knife involves direct contact, force, and is messy. There's less of a need today for the general public to have access to such weapons without showing a pressing need in my opinion. A weapon used for target practice, for example, could be stored at the range or local gunshop. The point is to get guns away from flashpoint situations that often occur at work, home or in the car. Someone wants to defend their home--Give'em a taser with registered, uniquely identifiable cartridges.

Imagine if everyone kept a gun in their vehicle? The car is a good place to witness people's primal behaviors when slighted.

#38 Mind

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:54 PM

Some people still believe that gun ownership is the best way to prevent the national government from concenrtrating too much power. They would rather live in a society with a high percentage of gun ownership than under more government supervision or in a police state. It is just an ethos that has persisted through the years. I would say that it isn't as strong as in the past, but it is still stronger than in other parts of the world.

#39 shadowrun

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 09:03 PM

There was an armed uprising against this government by an armed militia (Confederacy during the civil war.)
I guess it kinda backfired against the founding fathers

Another equation to your answer...

The fact that the US had armed civilians is what allowed us to fight and win the Revolutionary War in the first place.
The founding fathers beleived that having an armed populace would deter most invasions and there was an overall fear that the British may return one day
(like they did in 1812).

If in fact the US was invaded it would be a long arduous grind...Attackers would be facing off against the military and armed militias

In today's world I don't see the US ever being invaded by a foreign army and there will probably never be an armed uprising against our own govt.

These were ideas of the past and effective for the past...Now its part of tradition with deep roots in "Southern" culture - This obviously extends to other parts of the nation as well

Most of the world can look at us and say we're backward and that we should get rid of all the guns - Its just not that easy and the US is not very progressive -

At this point it is essentially ingrained into the American Ethos...Its part of who and what we are and it won't change anytime soon

I wish there were no guns in the US - It would just be easier that way

That won't be part of reality for a long time and I can see to an extent where the gun enthusiasts and the NRA are coming from

#40 mike250

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 11:59 PM

I think Gun control would simply make victims out of law abiding citizens.

#41 Aegist

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 05:24 AM

Now that the 3 of us have had this little outburst of mythological hilarity, how about we get back on topic?

Yes, gunman kills 33 people (or is it 32?) Tragic no?

nah not really. People die everyday. In fact, look through history. Turns out billions of people have died already.

#42 zoolander

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:14 PM

We have very strict gun laws here is Australia and I can only remember 1 shooting that occurred at a school.

How many have happen in the United States where you can buy a gun at the local Walmart?

Surely you have to factor how accessible guns are into this equation.

#43

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:42 PM

"Yes, gunman kills 33 people (or is it 32?) Tragic no?

nah not really. People die everyday. In fact, look through history. Turns out billions of people have died already." ~Aegist
Aegist, I can only hope that you were being sarcastic with your above quote. This was/is a truly horrific and tragic event. My thoughts are with everyone associated with this tragedy.

#44

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:46 PM

"How many have happen in the United States where you can buy a gun at the local Walmart?

Surely you have to factor how accessible guns are into this equation." ~Zoolander~

I totally agree with you Zoolander.

#45 Live Forever

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:48 PM

Why were some of the post deleted on this topic?

The posts having to do with religious stuff that was not on the topic of the thread were split to their own separate thread in the religion forum.

#46

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:49 PM

Thanks, I just noticed that!!! So I deleted my question. Though I truly appreciate your quick reply!!

#47 Aegist

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 12:23 AM

Everyone seen the video footage he taped of himself? Turns out christianity is related to this thread afterall... I mean, he's like jesus apparently. (he says so himself!)

http://www.smh.com.a...6696950210.html

#48 Live Forever

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 10:43 AM

Everyone seen the video footage he taped of himself? Turns out christianity is related to this thread afterall... I mean, he's like jesus apparently. (he says so himself!)

http://www.smh.com.a...6696950210.html


Wow. I kept wondering what reason he had for doing all this. I thought that there must be something that set him off, but it sounds like he was just ranting about a bunch of unrelated things. I guess he was just nuts.

#49 Aegist

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 10:58 AM

Yeah. I might have been a bit premature on the christian thing. I just heard him mention jesus a couple of times. The news reports actually say he was against the christians. It's just weird that he says something like "You don't know what it feels like to be nailed to a cross"....it sounded very much like he considered himself a martyr, just like jesus.

Whatever the case is, he was nutz, he snapped, he killed people. Tradgedy, and i think that is really all that can be said about it. It's no ones fault, and there was no real 'cause' (other than general reality).

#50

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 12:57 PM

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#51 Live Forever

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 02:49 PM

Part of the video diatribe by this guy, from NBC News (which was the one he sent the package to with all the video and pictures and his manifesto):



#52 struct

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:01 PM

Posted Image

How do you do the praying wonder!? Just wondering.
How does that help the victims and their families. Or is it something else coming from the praying besides nonsense?

#53 shadowrun

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:19 PM

From what I can tell after listening to all of his tapes...He was just nuts.

As far as all the comments about the US and our gun issues...

I wish we could pass legislation that would eliminate them all from the US -

But...compared to most other first world (democratic) nations the US is very conservative. Our government was created with checks and balances so that it would move at a snail's pace.

If you look back on American history you will see that only in times of major public backlash (civil rights being the last close example - Some could argue the Patriot Act) will the government move in an expeditious manner that creates sweeping change.

We move slow and act conservatively (at least domestically) because of the way the founding fathers created us...(heck we still have the electoral college!).

We are very different from a parlimentary system. At the end of elections one side will have majority - either through complete majority or through various deals with smaller parties. Even at 51% the majority could completely dictate most policy and enact swift change.

As you can see in the US...51% means crap; it effectively means you can flap your mouth and not accomplish much. At 66%, the Congress could do as it damn well pleased...but then again we have 2 houses, a president, a supreme court and various committees who could screw with the process at any given time...I haven't even mentioned how our most effective governmental systems are at the local level.

The world should really look at our domestic policies as 50 different results in 50 different nations - compare VT to GA and you'll see what I mean. The Civil War is also an example...same country, different policies and values.

We have 2 parties in a system designed to permit only 2 parties - other countries have multiple parties for multiple tastes. We don't, which is partly why we have lots of disaffected and uninterested voters.

Attempts at creating more parties are stymied at the local and state level. Even if they can reach the national level the system is such that they will be swallowed and nullifed. A 3rd party has no power because of existing power structures.

The US was created to protect the rights of the state and of the minority (at the time of inception it was land owning white males). Just look at the electoral college for proof.

Basically...yes, let's bash the US for its backward, slow and conservative government. Heck, we let ignorant, uneducated and even crazy people run around with guns.

Please also take into consideration the fact that we are a very large country, both geographically and population wise (3rd most populous in the world), as well as a relatively young country that is still growing.

We have a non-homogenous culture and deep seated regional issues. We also have a large conservative/religious base (we were founded by religious extremists).

It's hard for us to agree on anything...And if we do, it's a battle and it takes too damn long to get it through the government, where there are a million loopholes around it.

#54 da vinci

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:21 PM

I feel for those who have died.

But I would have blow the whole getto area up if I had a cannon, since my ex-con hided away and I was heavily bullied. Some of those xxxxx do deserve it though.

It really depends.

#55 OutOfThyme

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:58 PM

I feel for those who have died.

But I would have blow the whole getto area up if I had a cannon, since my ex-con hided away and I was heavily bullied. Some of those xxxxx do deserve it though.

It really depends.

Sounds like the depression talking. I hope you have someone there you can talk to about it where you are. Forums can sometimes be a poor substitute for what's really needed in life.

Stay well!

#56 OutOfThyme

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 05:04 PM

Posted Image

How do you do the praying wonder!? Just wondering.
How does that help the victims and their families. Or is it something else coming from the praying besides nonsense?

Ohhh, leave her alone struct... seems neither the time or place.

#57 Lazarus Long

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 05:31 PM

Ohhh, leave her alone struct... seems neither the time or place.


I agree with thymeless on this one. Have the dialectic discussion on related aspects of religion on the religious forum. Struct start the topic if you want and leave it to others to participate if they want to. This thread is neither the right time or place for it.

You can add the social aspects of evo-psch for social aspects of sympathy to the discussion then if you care to.

#58

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 07:04 PM

My post had really nothing to do with religion. It just seemed fitting to post something that could show I cared. I know there are no words that will take away the pain this horrific tragedy has caused. However, It is very important for me, as person, to show my sympathy.

#59 struct

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 07:15 PM

You could have just said that you cared for the victims/theirFamilies and if possible mentioned specifically how you did or are doing the caring.

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#60 Lazarus Long

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 07:19 PM

Struct, these are semantic and linguistic distinctions that have importance when looked at in terms of communications theory but your visceral response to religious aspects really does belong more in a different area of discussion than here.

Your perspective is valid too and that is why I think it is relevant for you to start the topic in the religious forum. I am confident that you feel some sympathy for the victims; so I ask instead how would you express that so that they understand it rather than how it is just PC for you to say it in your mind?

What I am suggesting is:

What is more important about sympathetic expression; how it is intended or how it is received?




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