67 replies to this topic

[health_nutty]

Interesting article. Things aren't always black and white. Personally I haven't been 100% convinced that organic is worth the price. However, I really haven't done enough research. What do you guys think?
http://findarticles....56/ai_n13628978

[bgwowk]

I believe the article is substantially correct. Given the choice between foods that are otherwise equivalent, I wouldn't pay the premium for organic. There may be certain cases where organic foods have higher micronutrient content, but I don't believe that's true in general. Like kosher food, the market for organic food exists for reasons other than health science.

[Live Forever]

I have heard that organic isn't that good for you from a couple friends of mine for awhile. The thinking is that organic farmers, unable to use pesticides, find the plants with the least amount of bugs and whatever else on them, then breed those, and continue the process with the next batch. The problem is that the reason the bugs don't eat the plants is because of the level of toxins in them, so when you continue to breed the ones that have the least amount of bugs (bacteria, whatever), you are increasing the levels of toxins.

As bad as the pesticides are, they are better for you than the toxicity of the organic vegetables. (and in most cases can be washed off)

[Karomesis]

I believe the article is substantially correct. Given the choice between foods that are otherwise equivalent, I wouldn't pay the premium for organic. There may be certain cases where organic foods have higher micronutrient content, but I don't believe that's true in general. Like kosher food, the market for organic food exists for reasons other than health science.

agreed Brian. [thumb]

there are a few foods like Acia juice that I pay handsomely for, although the science behind it is substantial.

[Athanasios]

As bad as the pesticides are, they are better for you than the toxicity of the organic vegetables. (and in most cases can be washed off)

Also, most produce are sprayed with pesticides that degrade in sunlight. There are rules on how soon you may harvest after the last spray.

[spaceistheplace]

it's quite saddening how distant people are nowadays from the soil they eat from.

Instead of labeling food organic, they ought to make those companies who do NOT grow naturally label which chemicals they have used in production on the package.

the article was so full of errors and misconceptions i was cringing and shouting through most of it.

Did Monsanto fund that article??

I'm in such a rage. After work I will post excerpts from this article and refute them all for you.

[mitkat]

I have heard that organic isn't that good for you from a couple friends of mine for awhile. The thinking is that organic farmers, unable to use pesticides, find the plants with the least amount of bugs and whatever else on them, then breed those, and continue the process with the next batch. The problem is that the reason the bugs don't eat the plants is because of the level of toxins in them, so when you continue to breed the ones that have the least amount of bugs (bacteria, whatever), you are increasing the levels of toxins.

This isn't true at all. First, farmers have traditionally chosen varieties that are resistant to insect and pest damage, that's how agriculture developed - breeding plants with positive traits. Second, in an Integrated Pest Management plan, which most organic farmers observe, choosing a plant variety that is resistant to insects is only part of proper crop modeling. Something a lot of people have a misconception about is that organic farmers cannot use pesticides, and are generally helpless. This is totally untrue. They have a limited selection of approved pesticides, insecticides, fertilizers, etc that can and are used.

As bad as the pesticides are, they are better for you than the toxicity of the organic vegetables. (and in most cases can be washed off)

I hate to bring the hammer down LF, but this is backwards. It's not just the plants themselves that attract insects to them, it's the cultural and biological factors of the area you're growing in - heat, humidity, rainfall, sunlight, pH, soil type, local vegetation, entomological cycles, the list of limiting factors goes on and on. The plant variety is just part of "the battle" against pathogens and pests in general. "People" are saying organic food is unsafe? Come on. Wtf does everyone think agriculture was before synthetic agrochemicals? Organic.

it's quite saddening how distant people are nowadays from the soil they eat from.

You know it. Even more saddening is what people expect from that soil after the way it's been farmed for 50 odd years. People simply do not understand enough about organic farming and it's all too easy to turn it into a fringe culture fad and to then read honestly what comes across to me as an obvious bullshit paper.

All it seems people really care about it how much more organic food can give you nutritionally, there is no mention of the progressive attitudes in regards to improving local soils and ecosystems, minimizing and correcting ecological damage, and producing a high-quality, low-toxicity crop.

I love this topic, good discussion: http://www.imminst.o...ST&f=171&t=9078

[Mind]

I think it does raise some good points, especially about the sustainability of an all organic food marketplace. It seems impossible without millions of people starving to death. People want progress and people want food. Another point that seems lost is that almost every product we eat (unless you are a hunter gatherer and get everything from the forest), has been genetically modified by humans. Every single farm product, organic or not, is genetically modified. Humans have been genetically modifying their food since they began farming thousands of years ago (plants and animals). Just because we now have the tools to speed up our desired modifications does not automatically make the food "evil" and a "disaster to the environment". It just means we have to be more careful.

[mitkat]

I think it does raise some good points, especially about the sustainability of an all organic food marketplace. It seems impossible without millions of people starving to death. People want progress and people want food. Another point that seems lost is that almost every product we eat (unless you are a hunter gatherer and get everything from the forest), has been genetically modified by humans. Every single farm product, organic or not, is genetically modified. Humans have been genetically modifying their food since they began farming thousands of years ago (plants and animals). Just because we now have the tools to speed up our desired modifications does not automatically make the food "evil" and a "disaster to the environment". It just means we have to be more careful.

Well put Mind. I agree with you on the modifying organisms front...I have had many arguments with horticulturalists over the years, and they always look shocked when I drop the "eugenics" bomb. It's all too true though! We have been breeding everything since day one. I have mixed feelings about GMOs personally, but that's a whole other can of worms

I'd never recommend organic farming for any large scale 'factory farming' operation. It is impractical, cost and land wise when compared to factory farms (unless done hydroponically, in which it's only somewhat limited cost wise). However, we aren't growing food for the world, and there are great hidden costs, both environmental (soil depletion, water contamination) and social (banana republics, ridiculous shipping routes) that come with factory farming.

I know you are a farm boy at heart and I'd never, ever knock farming. It's a labor intensive job with difficult hours that traditionally relied heavily on natural cycles and materials to get a crop. When agrochemicals got introduced, everything got fast, cheap, great, fruits and vegetables got huge. But that's a cost we are beginning to realize we can't cope with for many of the reasons listed above and in the thread I mentioned.

[Live Forever]

I have heard that organic isn't that good for you from a couple friends of mine for awhile. The thinking is that organic farmers, unable to use pesticides, find the plants with the least amount of bugs and whatever else on them, then breed those, and continue the process with the next batch. The problem is that the reason the bugs don't eat the plants is because of the level of toxins in them, so when you continue to breed the ones that have the least amount of bugs (bacteria, whatever), you are increasing the levels of toxins.

This isn't true at all. First, farmers have traditionally chosen varieties that are resistant to insect and pest damage, that's how agriculture developed - breeding plants with positive traits. Second, in an Integrated Pest Management plan, which most organic farmers observe, choosing a plant variety that is resistant to insects is only part of proper crop modeling. Something a lot of people have a misconception about is that organic farmers cannot use pesticides, and are generally helpless. This is totally untrue. They have a limited selection of approved pesticides, insecticides, fertilizers, etc that can and are used.

As bad as the pesticides are, they are better for you than the toxicity of the organic vegetables. (and in most cases can be washed off)

I hate to bring the hammer down LF, but this is backwards. It's not just the plants themselves that attract insects to them, it's the cultural and biological factors of the area you're growing in - heat, humidity, rainfall, sunlight, pH, soil type, local vegetation, entomological cycles, the list of limiting factors goes on and on. The plant variety is just part of "the battle" against pathogens and pests in general. "People" are saying organic food is unsafe? Come on. Wtf does everyone think agriculture was before synthetic agrochemicals? Organic.

Aah, well I will defer to you since you are a botanist. I actually heard the statement I used originally (well not word for word, but the general idea) from a scientist in one of the UC Berkley lectures that they put online, so I thought it was semi-credible, but I was obviously mistaken. Thanks for the thorough debunking, mitkat.

[mitkat]

LOL...don't take my word for it, I encourage people to read up on organic farming. I obviously don't hold myself above a Berkley prof (nor anyone), but that's "organic" as I've studied it

[Athanasios]

Aah, well I will defer to you since you are a botanist. I actually heard the statement I used originally (well not word for word, but the general idea) from a scientist in one of the UC Berkley lectures that they put online, so I thought it was semi-credible, but I was obviously mistaken. Thanks for the thorough debunking, mitkat.

Yeah, I saw that too. What surprised me was that the physics prof was relaying the info to the class that he got from his good friend.....Bruce Ames.

23min to 29min is the part of the lecture on Ames, the Ames test, and organics:
http://webcast.berke...webcastid=14667

Edit:
Here is a review Ames did on the subject:
http://www.policynet...Health_ch_1.pdf

The claim that is made that neither organic or 'regular' produce are unsafe. Stop smoking, get your Bs, and eat your fruits and veggies regardless if they are organic or not.

Edited by cnorwood, 09 May 2007 - 09:11 PM.

[Live Forever]

Aah, well I will defer to you since you are a botanist. I actually heard the statement I used originally (well not word for word, but the general idea) from a scientist in one of the UC Berkley lectures that they put online, so I thought it was semi-credible, but I was obviously mistaken. Thanks for the thorough debunking, mitkat.

Yeah, I saw that too. What surprised me was that the physics prof was relaying the info to the class that he got from his good friend.....Bruce Ames.

23min to 29min is the part of the lecture on Ames, the Ames test, and organics:
http://webcast.berke...webcastid=14667

Edit:
Here is a review Ames did on the subject:
http://www.policynet...Health_ch_1.pdf

The claim that is made that neither organic or 'regular' produce are unsafe. Stop smoking and get your Bs.

Cool. Thanks for the link, cnorwood. I had actually forgotten which video I had seen it in because I have watched so many of those things on so many different subjects that they all kind of mash together in my head.

[mitkat]

The claim that is made that neither organic or 'regular' produce are unsafe. Stop smoking, get your Bs, and eat your fruits and veggies regardless if they are organic or not.

*high fives you*

[xanadu]

I'm not going to go and read an article on another website. If someone has points they wish us to consider they can copy and paste them here with a link. Those who think it's better to eat pesticides than some imaginary "toxins" that all plants have except those treated with pesticides, then let them eat a bottle of pesticide and clean up the gene pool a little. Space, I look forward to your refutation. I just get annoyed arguing with dolts.

Bottom line is eat what you want. No one is forcing you to eat good food just like no one is forcing me to read propaganda articles.

[mike250]

so if food is genetically modified like Mind said, why would organic be more healthier?

[boilerroom]

I thought the whole point of organic farming was to alternate sections of various crops to deter one pest or disease from wiping out the entire crop. The idea is that they will think their food supply is gone, thus saving the rest of the farm.

Am I wrong in this?

Also, I'm still utterly amazed at how comfortable people are with man-made chemicals. History has shown that the majority of man-made chemicals are ultimately proven harmful in one way or another.

[resveratrol]

it's quite saddening how distant people are nowadays from the soil they eat from.

I don't see how proximity to dirt is anything to be envied.

the article was so full of errors and misconceptions i was cringing and shouting through most of it.

Please enlighten us.

Did Monsanto fund that article??

That's a preposterous allegation, and entirely uncalled for.

[resveratrol]

I think it does raise some good points, especially about the sustainability of an all organic food marketplace. It seems impossible without millions of people starving to death. People want progress and people want food. Another point that seems lost is that almost every product we eat (unless you are a hunter gatherer and get everything from the forest), has been genetically modified by humans. Every single farm product, organic or not, is genetically modified. Humans have been genetically modifying their food since they began farming thousands of years ago (plants and animals). Just because we now have the tools to speed up our desired modifications does not automatically make the food "evil" and a "disaster to the environment". It just means we have to be more careful.

Excellent points, Mind. I seem to recall an article in The Economist about 6 months ago about how all strains of modern wheat are in fact derived from wheat mutated by radiation in the mid-20th Century. An entirely random process that nevertheless led to a form of food that's absolutely and completely safe and has been consumed by billions worldwide for decades.

And yet, now that companies like Monsanto have the power to make intelligent and informed choices about how to genetically modify plants rather than simply taking a shotgun to their DNA, the nutty Whole Foods crowd is screaming like raving lunatics that this is some sort of new Armageddon. The amount of fear-mongering and scientific ignorance is really astonishing and shameful.

[mike250]

but do you believe that they are going to make ''intelligent'' and ''informed'' choices?

[bgwowk]

it's quite saddening how distant people are nowadays from the soil they eat from.

Lost Eden myths carry no weight here. The health effects of food are determined entirely by the molecules that constitute it, whether food is grown in soil, by hydroponics, or by a hypothetical molecular assembler. That's true whether food is grown three feet or three light years from where you eat it.

Labels of "safe" and "unsafe" score debating points, but aren't very useful to make real-world decisions. There is only relative safety. As someone implied earlier, the choice to eat fruits and vegetables is a far more important decision than the choice between organically-grown or non-organically-grown produce. Both are relatively safe.

Nobody should operate under the naive presumption that everything synthetic is bad, while everything natural is good. Some of the most potent carcinogens known, such as aflatoxins, are natural food contaminants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aflatoxin

I think the whole issue of health benefits of organically-grown produce, and cost justification, really needs to be examined on a case-by-case basis.

[mike250]

so in the light of this would grass-fed or organic beef be better than the regular stuff?
we know that there is a considerable use of antibiotics and hormones in regular stuff- and who knows maybe in the organic stuff too- but organic beef down here is very expensive. so does the cost justify its benefits?

[Neurosail]

I work with organic chicken. Here are a few websites that may help to learn more about organic foods.

Quality Assurance International
This is an independent third party certification for organic integrity.

The National Organic Program
This is the USDA Organic website

Organic Processing Magazine
This is the trade magazine for organic foods and trends.

Stagnito's New Products Magazine
A trade magazine for new food products.

Provisioner
Stagnito's meat, poultry, and prepared foods processors trade magazine.

[FunkOdyssey]

so in the light of this would grass-fed or organic beef be better than the regular stuff?

That's actually a different can of worms... when it comes to the diet of the animals you are eating, it is no longer a difference of a little chemical residue here and there. The nutritional content and fatty-acid composition of grass-fed beef is vastly different than grain-fed. We're talking about Omega 6:Omega 3 ratios of 1:1 or 2:1 vs. 6:1, 10x higher levels of beta-carotene, 4x more Vitamin E, etc -- huge health implications.

I'm always surprised that the diets animals are raised on are not subject to more scrutiny. I'd take pesticide-ridden grass-fed beef over organic grain-fed every time.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 10 May 2007 - 02:56 PM.

[Shepard]

I once bit into an organic apple. It had a worm in it. Now I spray my apples down with Lysol before I eat them.

[mitkat]

And yet, now that companies like Monsanto have the power to make intelligent and informed choices about how to genetically modify plants rather than simply taking a shotgun to their DNA, the nutty Whole Foods crowd is screaming like raving lunatics that this is some sort of new Armageddon. The amount of fear-mongering and scientific ignorance is really astonishing and shameful.

Monsanto...it always makes me laugh to see someone backing Monsanto as a bringer of great bounty and agricultural innovation. Besides their atrocious environmental track record, the shoddy business behaviour and general disrespect for the farming community at large is nothing to be thankful for. It's just as easy to bash a fanatical hippie as it is to bash someone who doesn't even bother to do a little research on what those "nutty" Whole Foods crowd is talking about...also keep in mind many members here (including the ever lovin' Dukenukem) are hardore regulars. Most Whole Foods people are boomers AFAIK, and the only ranting they do is about the new trendy hip-hop pilates fundamentalist yoga crunch class is like, so awesome.

The amount of acceptance towards an agricultural system that is essentially a ecological negative return and general scientific ignorance is astonishing and shameful! You think organic farming involves no scientific knowledge? You have no idea.

but do you believe that they are going to make ''intelligent'' and ''informed'' choices?

Hell no Genetic modification comes with absolutely no guarentees whatsoever, imo. This is not a mission of altruism on Monsanto's part - this is a commercial product, it has to have a release date and has to make money. These crops are not made to exist in your local area's flora - they are made to exist in a sterile plot where food is grown. Certain monsanto varieties are growing wild and taking over native species...WHOOPS. I fully understand many people will say "who cares?" - that's ignorant. I hate hearing doomsday scenerios as much as the next reasonable person, but this type of ongoing catastrophe is both pervasive and insidious. Cross-polination and creating hybrids from GMOs and native crops is actually not that big a risk, where as by the same token of what I said earlier, there are several Monsanto crops that are designed to be sterile, as you must return to buy patented seeds from them every season. Farmers have been, and are continually charged in the USA for having Monsanto crops growing in their field, even if they are few and are obviously wind-dispursed. Intelligent? They're asshats.

I'd take pesticide-ridden grass-fed beef over organic grain-fed every time.

http://www.marietta....2/2bioma95.html

[mitkat]

I once bit into an organic apple. It had a worm in it. Now I spray my apples down with Lysol before I eat them.

Shep, put that lysol away - simply don't buy organic and they'll do it for you

[Shepard]

Shep, put that lysol away - simply don't buy organic and they'll do it for you

That would save me some time. I really did have issues a few times buyng organic produce from standard grocery stores. Swapped to local farmers market...just goodness.

[mitkat]

Shep, put that lysol away - simply don't buy organic and they'll do it for you

That would save me some time. I really did have issues a few times buyng organic produce from standard grocery stores. Swapped to local farmers market...just goodness.

That's always the way to go [thumb] No one can say that they don't live near a farmer's market, from the most far out rural area to the largest urban centre. Straight up goodness

[Live Forever]

I do like going down to the farmer's market on a Saturday morning or something...nothing better.