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Teaching Hate To Children Through TV


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#31 spilz

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 01:12 PM

I will go and dig for some of their websites. a lot of them get censored and the person put behind bars either because of religious or governmental authorities- Much like they did with King Hassan of Jordan.

However I urge you to go down there and visit the region like I did- you will learn a lot-

try not to limit your thoughts to radical islamists- who like the government want to silence those who have different views- and the hype that the media like to play every now and then because there are heaps of intellectuals, scientists and free-thinkers/philsophers in those arab nations.

you have secularists, communists, liberalists etc..... but like I said in my first statement the media- wether national or international- likes to focus on one side of the story.

Edited by spilz, 16 May 2007 - 01:24 PM.


#32

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:20 PM

"I will go and dig for some of their websites."~splitz
We are waiting,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

#33 xanadu

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:44 PM

John, you are a fine apologist for israel. There is obviously no atrocity they could commit that you would not excuse. You have repeated every bit of the standard propaganda. You declare what I say to be false but provide no documentation or even logic or argument to back it up. You just say "100% false" and move on.

Xanadu, you need to realize there are many Israeli/Jewish grassroots organizations within Israel which would heartily agree that their government has done some really bad things and that change for the better must occur.


So there are israelis who agree with what I'm saying. Are they 100% wrong also? Do you oppose them as well or just me? I too am against the evil things done by our government under Bush and others.

I'm not going to say the Israeli gov't & people are without blame (they sure are not) but just imagine what the Arabs would have done to them if the balance of power were reversed.


So you grudgingly admit their actions have been wrong but tell us to "just imagine" the arabs doing worse things as a sort of justification for the evil acts by israel. For your information, arabs and jews lived in harmony for many years in the region before the zionists began their push to steal land and drive out the arabs. I do not have to "imagine" how things would have been, I can look at the history books and see. The arabs did not take advantage of the situation to drive out the jews when they were numerically superior. They only began to fight back when the zionist terrorists like the Stern gang and Irgun began killing and driving out the rightful owners.

It has been a combination of U.S. aid and Jewish identity/organizational power, which have almost miraculously held back an Arab alliance of nations hellbent on crushing this tiny but tough as nails little nation


What horseshit! Your admiration for terrorists knows no bounds. USA is stronger than the arabs so they were able to steal vast tracks of land and you praise that like it was some noble thing.

The attack against an American spy ship Liberty was indeed very tragic. But at least some critics contend it happened because we did not "declare" the ship one of ours


Your excuse making and revision of history also knows no bounds. I will repost some info on the Liberty attack in another post. It was not a mistake and there is ample evidence of that. Using your logic, everything the nazis did was fine and dandy. If the victims fought back, it was proof they were terrorists and deserved what happened. The nazis had excuses for everything they did too, just like israel has excuses for everything they do and you eat it up uncritically.

Some people say the whole thing was deliberately plotted by Israel but I think at the very worst (if this is true) that the initial attack (again machine gun fire and napalm is to suppress deck activity and not sink a ship) was more of a slap to teach the U.S. a lesson about being secretive and not being open and honest with Israel


That is a totally gross and disgusting thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. Dozens of american seamen were killed in that day long action and you are telling us they deserved it. What country are you a citizen of, may I ask?

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#34

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:59 PM

QUOTE (mind)
The land has changed hands dozens or even hundreds of times since humans first settled there. What makes the last land grab (more of a defensive move, really, against a arab army amassing to destroy Israel), so much more egregious than all the other movements and settlements in the region over the last few thousand years?
>

Xanadu wrote:
So your argument is that land theft has gone on throughout history and is therefore traditional. So what is so bad about this land theft? Is that about the size of it? Well hell, murder has gone on throughout history, rape, robbery and so on. Are we to wink at those things too? Is there any crime that you would condemn no matter who did it, even a jew?
>

Ouch!  Xanadu, you need to realize there are many Israeli/Jewish grassroots organizations within Israel which would heartily agree that their government has done some really bad things and that change for the better must occur.  Now in the Arab nations do we see counterparts to these Israeli organizations? Don't hold your breath... 

Please remember that all of Israel is a tiny strip of land and the possibility of being driven into the sea is a scary thought in the Israeli mind and so they needed expanded buffer zones.  They do not have a huge continent protected by vast oceans on either side like the United States.  When it comes to past Israeli/Arab wars, keep in mind that each time around the Arabs would have wiped out Israel from the face of the earth had they the military power to do so.  You are totally deceived to believe otherwise. 

Xanadu wrote:
Their statement that the arabs were planning to destroy them is just stock boilerplate israeli bullsh-t.
>

This statement of yours is 100% false. 

I'm not going to say the Israeli gov't & people are without blame (they sure are not) but just imagine what the Arabs would have done to them if the balance of power were reversed.  I can guarantee there would currently be no state of Israel in the Middle East! lol  It has been a combination of U.S. aid and Jewish identity/organizational power, which have almost miraculously held back an Arab alliance of nations hellbent on crushing this tiny but tough as nails little nation (Israel must rank up there with ancient Sparta in terms of having troops which can defeat all comers).  Current and future historians will shake their heads in wonder at the shocking military incompetance of Israel's enemies.  Despite massive Soviet aid and training and a vastly outnumbered enemy, they still could not defeat Israel.

Xanadu wrote:
And what is "defensive" about a preemptive land grab? Their statement that the arabs were planning to destroy them is just stock boilerplate israeli bullsh-t. They have committed horrible crimes from the beginning all the while crying about being the victims. They "have no choice" but to steal land, oppress the rightful owners, kill them if they protest and so on. The land grab of '67 which you defend also involved a treacherous attack against the USA. Yes, bring on the history, I do not shrink from it a bit. What I say is based on history and fact. 
>

The attack against an American spy ship Liberty was indeed very tragic.  But at least some critics contend it happened because we did not "declare" the ship one of ours (it was a spy ship, lol) despite Israel asking for a list of our ships anywhere in "the neighborhood."  Arab nations liked to disguise their vessels with foreign markings and so Israel was very suspicious.  I believe things got out of hand due to a series of unplanned unfortunate events and not some evil conspiracy against the United States. 

Initially Israeli planes did close flyby's (the Liberty was flying the U.S. flag & marked as American) and then only later did Israeli aircraft do machine gun and napalm strafing runs.  This sounds bad (and is...) but this is much more to suppress ship deck activity for shooting down planes (manning machine guns, etc.) rather than to sink a ship.  The steel structure of a ship can stand up to such treatment.  It was only later when several Israeli torpedo boats approached to try to figure out what was what that the American commander opened fire on them (he felt they moved aggressively toward him in battle formation) and they responded with torpedo attacks which killed several dozen Americans.  When Israel realized what had happened they immediately contacted Washington in an attempt to repair things. 

Some people say the whole thing was deliberately plotted by Israel but I think at the very worst (if this is true) that the initial attack (again machine gun fire and napalm is to suppress deck activity and not sink a ship) was more of a slap to teach the U.S. a lesson about being secretive and not being open and honest with Israel in regard to having our spy ships in their neck of the woods during a war.  But then things got out of hand when a worried U.S. commander ordered his gunners to open fire on initially non-hostile Israeli torpedo boats coming to visit him.  A former CIA director and a number of other very senior U.S. military and intelligence officials have stated they felt Israel had not been entirely truthful as to what really caused the attack.  But they could be wrong in this assumption and hurt pride could be a major reason for this attitude.     

Israeli officials hold that their pilots and sailors were just very tired & jittery and that the natural "fog of war" combined with the Americans not disclosing it was their spy ship, caused the tragedy.  Ironically the story goes that Israeli leadership was horrified at the initial news of the attack because they thought their forces had attacked a *Soviet spy ship* and so they might have given provocation to Russia for direct military involvement!

A strange twist on things is that U.S. navy fleet forces were contacted but twice in a row carrier fighters were ordered back from missions to support the Liberty.  In a cold blooded way this makes sense because having our planes dogfighting against an ally would have created a humiliating schism for all the world to see.  This was supposedly the view of President Johnson who ordered the second mission scrubbed.

What I find disturbing is that in the later Pueblo Incident (American spy ship captured by the North Koreans), once again help was begged for by the attacked ship but even though U.S. fleet was successfully contacted, help never came.  I can understand this in the Liberty incident but not for the Pueblo.  Supposedly no one in the Navy or the presidential administration wanted to risk a second Korean war and so the Pueblo was sacrificed.  Ironically the loss of life for the Pueblo Incident was much less but then the North Koreans and their Soviet masters wanted to get their hands on the spy tech & records on board the American vessel and so they had to restrain themselves.   

I have a very hard time ever seeing real peace between Israel and their Arab neighbors.  Perhaps in the 22nd century we can use super-advanced nanotech macro-engineering to move the entire nation of Israel to a nice quiet spot right off the coast of Southern California.  The Israeli's can then worry about being invaded by hordes of partying American Spring Break college students! : )

John Grigg

P.S. I sure hope those wacky Dagon worshipers, the Phillistines, don't suddenly show up and then say *they* want Palestine back!  Let's see..., the Phillistines were supposedly of early Greek era ancestry and so I guess that means we should let the politicians in Athens have a say in current Middle East politics!  And of course we will have to cut out a strip of land for them...

Your accuracy is impressive. It is very refreshing to know that there are articulate and intelligent people out there. [thumb]

#35

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 07:05 PM

John, you are a fine apologist for israel. There is obviously no atrocity they could commit that you would not excuse. You have repeated every bit of the standard propaganda. You declare what I say to be false but provide no documentation or even logic or argument to back it up. You just say "100% false" and move on.



So there are israelis who agree with what I'm saying. Are they 100% wrong also? Do you oppose them as well or just me? I too am against the evil things done by our government under Bush and others.



So you grudgingly admit their actions have been wrong but tell us to "just imagine" the arabs doing worse things as a sort of justification for the evil acts by israel. For your information, arabs and jews lived in harmony for many years in the region before the zionists began their push to steal land and drive out the arabs. I do not have to "imagine" how things would have been, I can look at the history books and see. The arabs did not take advantage of the situation to drive out the jews when they were numerically superior. They only began to fight back when the zionist terrorists like the Stern gang and Irgun began killing and driving out the rightful owners.



What horseshit! Your admiration for terrorists knows no bounds. USA is stronger than the arabs so they were able to steal vast tracks of land and you praise that like it was some noble thing.



Your excuse making and revision of history also knows no bounds. I will repost some info on the Liberty attack in another post. It was not a mistake and there is ample evidence of that. Using your logic, everything the nazis did was fine and dandy. If the victims fought back, it was proof they were terrorists and deserved what happened. The nazis had excuses for everything they did too, just like israel has excuses for everything they do and you eat it up uncritically.



That is a totally gross and disgusting thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. Dozens of american seamen were killed in that day long action and you are telling us they deserved it. What country are you a citizen of, may I ask?

It always amazes me that with topics such as this, that all the misguided and hate filled people come out of the "woodwork" With nothing to contribute, except hate and ignorance....................

#36 xanadu

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 07:43 PM

Wonder, perhaps I could apply your own standards to yourself? What have you contributed to this besides hatred? We have seen you spew hate towards palestinian children as well as arabs in general. Do you want to see the quotes? You started this whole thread with the idea of bringing it to this point. Are you happy with yourself?

You prattle on about ignorance but can give no evidence whatsoever to back up any of the ignorant statements you've made. Who is the ignorant one here? I've given facts and figures like the fact of the Liberty attack, the fact of the invasion and land grab of '67, among others. The fact that israel has occupied stolen land and built illegal settlements condemned by the world. The fact that they torture and imprison thousands without trial or charges. That they take private property without due process. That they murder people on the basis of tips and rumors. All these things have been documented and we all know they are true, even you. What have to offered in rebuttal? Name calling.

Stay tuned and I will provide more documentation on the Liberty incident.

#37 xanadu

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 10:21 PM

As promised, here you go. Israeli jet communications were intercepted and the israeli pilots were overheard discussing the fact that the ship was american. They knew very well what it was. An israeli pilot who refused to carry out the attack was arrested when he returned to port and later court martialed. This was long after it was definitely established that it was american. They still court martialed him.

Here are some quotes from high government officials and people involved in the incident.

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk






"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms






"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby






"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson






"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."
-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)






"A nice whitewash for a group of ignorant, stupid and inept [expletive deleted]."
-- Handwritten note of August 26, 1967, by NSA Deputy Director Louis W. Tordella reacting to the Israeli court decision exonerating Israelis of blame for the Liberty attack.






"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor






"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."
-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry






That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency
-- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings






Former NSA/CIA Director Admiral Bobby Inman "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli claims that the attack was an accident
-- 5 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings






Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate
-- David Walsh, writing in Naval Institute Proceedings






"It appears to me that it was not a pure case of mistaken identity."
-- Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty, speaking at Arlington National Cemetery, June 8, 1997






"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14

#38

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 12:03 AM

The modern state of Israel has always been on the receiving end of pressure from its closest ally. Even before Israel had declared its independence in 1948, it had to endure relentless pressure from President Truman and Secretary of State George Marshall to renounce independent nationhood and submit to a United Nations trusteeship. In 1957, President Eisenhower and Secretary of State Dulles forced Israel to withdraw from the Sinai desert, which it had occupied in order to stop incessant terrorist attacks and an Egyptian blockade of its shipping, in return for an American promise to keep the vital Straight of Tiran waterway open to Israeli ships. When Egypt re-imposed the blockade ten years later, President Lyndon Johnson and his advisors claimed that they "couldn't find" his predecessor's pledge to Israel in U.S. government files, and declined to honor it.

When it became clear that Egypt and Syria were once again about to launch a massive attack on Israel in October 1973, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and President Richard Nixon applied brutal pressure on Prime Minister Golda Meir to refrain from a "preemptive" attack and to allow the Egyptians and Syrians to strike first, according to John Loftus in his 1997 book, The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People. The result was three thousand Israeli deaths.

Later, when Israel finally got the upper hand in the fighting, the United States forced it to accept a ceasefire before the Israelis could win a complete victory. Two years later, President Gerald Ford and Henry Kissinger (still the Secretary of State) forced the Israelis to withdraw unilaterally from the Suez Canal, even without a peace treaty with Egypt.

President Jimmy Carter pressured Prime Minister Menachem Begin to withdraw from the entire Sinai Peninsula in return for a peace treaty with Egypt. But Egypt has kept only a formal 'cold peace' with Israel ever since, continuing to indoctrinate its people in hatred for Israelis and Jews, all the while arming itself to the teeth.

President Ronald Reagan and his advisors mounted enormous pressure on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon in 1983, before it had ratified its peace treaty with Israel. The U.S. also pressed Israel to allow Yasser Arafat and his associates to flee Lebanon with their weapons, even though Israel could easily have killed or captured them. Syria was allowed to keep its troops in Lebanon, where they have been ever since. Twenty years of terror against Israel by both Lebanese and Palestinian groups have been the result.

President George Bush and Secretary of State James Baker squeezed Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir to halt the settlement of Judea and Samaria by denying the Israelis the loan guarantees they needed to absorb a huge exodus of Jewish refugees from Russia. When Shamir politely but firmly resisted these pressures, he paid a political price; he was not reelected, and the Israel Labor Party, more pliable to U.S. pressures, returned to office.

President Bill Clinton squeezed Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to agree to the withdrawal of Israeli soldiers from large areas of Judea and Samaria (the so-called "Wye Agreements"), leaving many of the Jewish communities there surrounded by Arab-controlled territory and very vulnerable to attack.

The list of instances of American pressure on Israel can go on and on.

But no administration has been more insistent on Israeli unilateral concessions to the Palestinian terrorists than that of our current President, George W. Bush. Mr. Bush and his Secretary of State, Colin Powell have demanded that Israel acquiesce in a Palestinian State. They have joined with the Europeans, Russia and the United Nations - the Quartet - to demand in their "road map" plan Israel's withdrawal to the indefensible pre-1967 armistice lines. They have extracted a promise from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon not to retaliate against arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat, even though there is no possibility of peace as long as Arafat remains in control of the terrorist apparatus. Whenever Israel has sent troops into Arab areas in order to root out the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure, the Bush Administration has demanded their quick withdrawal, before the Israeli soldiers could complete their mission.

George Bush recently endorsed the Gaza initial disengagement 'Sharon plan'. Then, the Arabs strongly protested and Bush caved and said that Judea-Samaria, including Jerusalem, will remain open to be negotiated between the parties. Within a few weeks of giving "assurances" to Sharon that the U.S. would not demand a return to the 1967 lines, the United States joined with the other Quartet powers, in calling for "an end to the occupation which began in 1967," and in affirming support for the Saudi plan, which calls for a complete withdrawal to the 1967 lines and the "return" of the Palestinian "refugees" to Israel. Bush-Powell bend to Arab pressure and treat Israel with a double standard when it comes to terrorism.

The Bush-Powell State Department has demanded that Israel dismantle some communities in Judea and Samaria and strangle others with ultra-strict prohibitions on growth. And it has opposed Israel's attempts to include Israeli communities outside the 1949 armistice lines - the so-called "Green Line" - within its purely defensive border fence. These communities, including Israeli neighborhoods in Jerusalem outside the Green Line, have a population of over 400,000.

Herein lies Israel's dilemma: Unless it acquiesces to U.S., European, and United Nations demands that it make unilateral concessions to the terrorists and allow them to take control of territory adjoining its main centers of population, the United States could cut off all aid to Israel, on which it depends for the weapons it needs to survive. A strong Israel, unwilling to bend to pressure, might also face economic sanctions from the entire "international community," or even military intervention by the European Community, which is in the process of developing its own intervention force, independent of NATO and the United States. Israel is threatened with total international isolation if it resists the pressure for international concessions, while it must endure endless terror and murder against its population if it knuckles under to the pressure - as, in fact, it has been experiencing since the present terrorist offensive began in September 2000.

American pressure is ever looming on Israeli leaders no matter what they say. Everything Israeli leaders do is with the U.S. in mind. It may appear to be their decision, but behind the scenes it is always made with U.S. wishes as a consideration. The last word is always with the U.S. administration. Nonetheless, Israel is still a sovereign, independent state, and its government has the capacity to act independently when, and if, its leaders have the courage to stand alone in defense of its vital interests. The Israeli people have a right to expect their leaders to adhere to this standard of courage.

There are some instances where Israeli leaders refused to cave in to American pressure, and the sky didn't fall in. When U.S. Secretary of State George Marshall warned Israel's future foreign minister, Moshe Shertok (name later changed to Sharett) against a declaration of a Jewish State, Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion, and the entire leadership of the new nation decided to go ahead anyway. Israel survived the American effort to strangle it at birth, and is still here. Years later, President John Kennedy tried to pressure Israel to abandon its nuclear program, Ben Gurion resisted the pressure. As a result, Israel now has a nuclear deterrent. These examples prove that it is possible for Israel to resist unreasonable demands, even from the United States. Hence its leaders are responsible when they cave in to unreasonable demands.

Basically, Israel is alone, as it has always been. The Bible says that Israel is a nation that dwells alone. In the end, Israel/Jews were, are and will be used as scapegoats, whether by Bush or other leaders.

In the end, Israeli leaders are responsible for the poor decisions they have made since 1992, whatever external pressures may have been brought to bear on them. But Israel's friends here in America and elsewhere can do more to help Israelis by demanding that their own governments halt the pressure on them than by casting the whole blame for the appeasement of the terrorists on the shoulders of Israel's government. It is up to the people of Israel to remove from office those leaders who have knuckled under to external pressures to appease their enemies; and it is up to us, as Americans, to replace leaders who have harassed our one true ally in the Middle East: Israel.

#39 John_Ventureville

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 10:41 AM

Spilz wrote;
I will go and dig for some of their websites. a lot of them get censored and the person put behind bars either because of religious or governmental authorities- Much like they did with King Hassan of Jordan.
>

I find it interesting that you admit in the Arab nations that to speak out can easily result in censorship and imprisonment. Israel is looking even better to me! ha But I do grant you that there are individuals and groups in these countries who are trying to do the right thing but it's a very uphill battle.

Xanadu wrote:
John, you are a fine apologist for israel. There is obviously no atrocity they could commit that you would not excuse. You have repeated every bit of the standard propaganda. You declare what I say to be false but provide no documentation or even logic or argument to back it up. You just say "100% false" and move on.
>

Arghh! lol I did not say in my last post that Israel was without blame! But are their opponents in the Arab world without blame?? "There is obviously no atrocity they could commit that you would not excuse." This is a real "yellow journalism" statement and I am offended. *I'm beginning to feel like I'm having a discussion with my ex-girlfriend.*

Xanadu wrote:
You declare what I say to be false but provide no documentation or even logic or argument to back it up. You just say "100% false" and move on.
>

You said it was "boilerplate Israeli horseshit" that Israel claimed the Arab nations in time of war (and peace) were planning to utterly destroy them. But Egyptian leader Nasser many many times was recorded telling his people that they would "drive the Jews of Israel into the sea!" And he was just one of many Arab demagogues who made statements like this. Such things are such total public knowledge I am amazed you can claim ignorance.

It has been a combination of U.S. aid and Jewish identity/organizational power, which have almost miraculously held back an Arab alliance of nations hellbent on crushing this tiny but tough as nails little nation

I earlier wrote:
It has been a combination of U.S. aid and Jewish identity/organizational power, which have almost miraculously held back an Arab alliance of nations hellbent on crushing this tiny but tough as nails little nation
>

Xanadu wrote:
What horseshit! Your admiration for terrorists knows no bounds. USA is stronger than the arabs so they were able to steal vast tracks of land and you praise that like it was some noble thing.
>

Name calling is definitely a real talent of yours. It seems now if someone does not like some other group they simply label them a "terrorist." While Israel had military and economic support from the United States, the Arab nations had their own incredible oil wealth PLUS massive military aid from the Soviet Union. After repeated attacks by the Arabs, Israel kept some of the lands it had gained in military victories as a buffer zone to help protect itself (remember, it's just a tiny strip of land compared to its geographically huge neighbors). If modern-day Israel had wanted to, it could have created an empire dwarfing what King David and Solomon accomplished centuries ago. But they did not.

I earlier wrote:
Xanadu, you need to realize there are many Israeli/Jewish grassroots organizations within Israel which would heartily agree that their government has done some really bad things and that change for the better must occur.
>

Xanadu wrote:
So there are israelis who agree with what I'm saying. Are they 100% wrong also?
>

Yes, Xanadu, there are Israeli's who would agree with much of what you say! And they can get away with this because they live in a democracy! : ) As flawed as Israel can be at times, they are a democracy and so they have mechanisms for self-correction and justice you just don't see in their Arab neighbors.

I earlier wrote:
The attack against an American spy ship Liberty was indeed very tragic. But at least some critics contend it happened because we did not "declare" the ship one of ours
>

Xanadu wrote:
Your excuse making and revision of history also knows no bounds. I will repost some info on the Liberty attack in another post. It was not a mistake and there is ample evidence of that. Using your logic, everything the nazis did was fine and dandy. If the victims fought back, it was proof they were terrorists and deserved what happened. The nazis had excuses for everything they did too, just like israel has excuses for everything they do and you eat it up uncritically.
>

Xanadu, to bring up the Nazi's is a straw man argument and even by your standards, a below the belt punch. And to bring up Nazi's in a discussion about Israel is in extremely bad taste to say the least. A better example would have been the American Indians.

I earlier wrote:
Some people say the whole thing was deliberately plotted by Israel but I think at the very worst (if this is true) that the initial attack (again machine gun fire and napalm is to suppress deck activity and not sink a ship) was more of a slap to teach the U.S. a lesson about being secretive and not being open and honest with Israel
>

Xanadu wrote:
That is a totally gross and disgusting thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. Dozens of american seamen were killed in that day long action and you are telling us they deserved it. What country are you a citizen of, may I ask?
>

It was a *United States President* who ordered U.S. carrier fighter jets to turn around rather than have them possibly attack Israeli planes in defense of the Liberty. I bring this up again to show just how complicated and at times cold blooded the real world can be. I'm an American citizen who sees Israel as my ally and the Arab nations as very corrupt and in many cases sponsors of very *real* terrorism.

I am personally very disgusted by what happened to the Liberty, which resulted in the deaths of thirty-four U.S. citizens. But terrible things for whatever reason can happen (even between allies) and we must in time move on. The big picture is that over the years Israel has been a staunch ally to the United States. I really don't see another Liberty incident ever happening. But even one was way to much.

I'd like to know where both you and Wonder hail from.

Xanadu wrote:
You prattle on about ignorance but can give no evidence whatsoever to back up any of the ignorant statements you've made. Who is the ignorant one here? I've given facts and figures like the fact of the Liberty attack, the fact of the invasion and land grab of '67, among others. The fact that israel has occupied stolen land and built illegal settlements condemned by the world. The fact that they torture and imprison thousands without trial or charges. That they take private property without due process. That they murder people on the basis of tips and rumors. All these things have been documented and we all know they are true, even you. What have to offered in rebuttal? Name calling.
>

I agree (exception being the "land grab") with the bulk of what you said here about the "sins" of Israel. The world has noticed and condemned the things you mention Israel doing. But Israel has for decades been in a fierce struggle (for its own survival) with its Arab neighbors with no end in sight. The Arabs do not want a negotiated peace settlement, instead they want the destruction of Israel. And yet even the most hardened Israeli war hawks are beginning to feel war, assassination and strife just lead to an endless downward spiral of mutual violence. But their Arab opponent will simply not disengage because their whole existance at this point revolves around the politics and warfare of fighting Israel. What would they do with themselves if Israel was not around to battle and hate? lol Suddenly Arab leaders would have to look in the mirror and account to their own people regarding screwed-up economies and lack of civil liberties.

Wonder wrote:
Basically, Israel is alone, as it has always been. The Bible says that Israel is a nation that dwells alone. In the end, Israel/Jews were, are and will be used as scapegoats, whether by Bush or other leaders.
>

I have to admit I am bothered by these statements even though I think I see where you are coming from. The United States (despite doing quite a bit of meddling) has been a very good friend to Israel. And yet at the same time I agree that we are pushing a peace plan which would leave Israel militarily vulnerable and this definitely bothers me.

It's too easy as individuals or even nations to feel sorry for oneself and claim to be a scapegoat. Israel is "grown up" now and I agree must stand up for itself with the U.S. and the rest of the world. But I think part of the problem is the divided populace and politicians of Israel.

Wonder wrote:
In the end, Israeli leaders are responsible for the poor decisions they have made since 1992, whatever external pressures may have been brought to bear on them. But Israel's friends here in America and elsewhere can do more to help Israelis by demanding that their own governments halt the pressure on them than by casting the whole blame for the appeasement of the terrorists on the shoulders of Israel's government. It is up to the people of Israel to remove from office those leaders who have knuckled under to external pressures to appease their enemies; and it is up to us, as Americans, to replace leaders who have harassed our one true ally in the Middle East: Israel.
>

As I said regarding the Liberty incident, the world is a complicated place and I think you perhaps oversimplify things here. But I ultimately agree that the current peace plan being pushed would put Israeli population centers in a potentially vulnerable state. *Perhaps* the technological and military strength of Israel would still be enough to sufficiently shield the nation. I think at this point Israeli's are so sick of conflict that they are willing to take the chance.

These are all very complicated and emotionally charged issues and I think to an extent both Wonder and Xanadu have "political blinders" on. Xanadu actually brought up some good points at times but with yellow journalism tactics mixed in, which really bothered me. I wish Wonder, Xanadu and myself could all sit down at a coffee house and face to face try to have a civil discussion on these tough matters of world importance.

I once took a cab ride with a driver originally from Yugoslavia who was Serbian. We got on the subject of the politics and history of his land and to my shock he told me in a very loud & angry voice that the Muslims of his land "all deserved to be kicked out or shot!" He was like a broken record the whole trip as he tried to explain to me why he was right. The driver's body literally quaked with rage as he told me about his genocidal opinion. I had never encountered anyone like this before but if the Middle East is filled with similar people then I seriously wonder if peace can ever be achieved.


John Grigg

#40 xanadu

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 06:52 PM

Wonder, I looked over the propaganda piece you obviously copied and pasted but I'm not going to read it to the end. You could at least have the decency to admit where you copied it from instead of presenting it as your own writing.

John, you presented nothing new in your latest post. You simply reiterated israeli propaganda and accused me of "yellow journalism". Do you know what the term means? I am not a journalist charged with reporting the news. I'm giving my opinion same as you and to use the term yellow journalism is ridiculous. But, much of what you wrote is ridiculous so it does fit in.

You dodged away from facts and there is no point in debating the highly charged language of the propaganda you presented. Lets look at the undisputed facts and see if we can draw some conclusions.

1. Before the jewish drive to take and settle the region, arabs and jews lived in harmony even though arabs were in the minority.
2. When jews started flooding in, acts of terror began to happen and arabs were pushed out.
3. Before the declaration of statehood, there was a concerted effort by jewish terror groups such as the Irgun and Stern gangs to drive out the arabs.
4. The arabs began to fight back and this was used as an excuse to increace the terror.
5. In 1967 Israel launched a preemptive raid stealing much land including the sinai from arabs.

And it goes on from there. Israel has grown like a cancer at the expense of it's neighbors. The arab's policy was tolerance toward the jews who took advantage of that to push them out. With help from usa and rich jews in europe, they financed their land grab and terror campaigns.

Today, Israel sits on top of millions of acres of stolen land. There is little dispute about the fact of it being "stolen". When you invade your neighbor's land and occupy it, it's called stealing. Saying you "knew" they were going to do something bad or saying you had some dispute does not justify it. If arabs want to destroy Israel they have very good reason just as you would have reason to destroy the cancer that is eating you alive and killing you.

#41 xanadu

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 06:44 PM

John, you told so many whoppers in your last post it would take forever to expose them all. I thought I would highlight one of the most glaring ones.

The Arabs do not want a negotiated peace settlement, instead they want the destruction of Israel.


The arabs have repeatedly offered to talk peace and Israel won't even sit down with them. They demand the arabs hand over or agree in advance to everything israel wants before they will talk. Of course then they would have gotten what they wanted so no need to talk then either. The arabs have offered to sign a peace accord, stop all attacks and reprisals in exchange for israel pulling back to pre '67 borders. They refuse to even discuss it. Your statement above is a lie typical of the bombastic propaganda spewed out by that nation. You of course uncritically eat it up and repeat it like a parrot.

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 07:29 PM

Xanadu, Ben Franklin would be mortified to know someone of your mindset would use one of his quotes. You made it very clear you are anti Israel. You do not need to keep repeating yourself over and over again.

#43 xanadu

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 08:19 PM

Wonder, I'm not sure you are capable of grasping this distinction but I am against the illegal and immoral actions of israel, not against the country itself. I'm certainly not against all the people in it or those who support it. It's a matter of right and wrong. I happen to think it's wrong to take property, land, rights, or whatever away from people just because you are bigger and stronger than they are. That is the way of the jungle and we have moved beyond that. Or at least some of us have. I don't think you are totally immoral, I think that in just this case you have decided not to worry about morality or what's right and wrong.

I'm sure you know that many jews are against the state of israel and very much against the methods used to create it and expand it. I've heard it said that the radical zionists who are in control over there have betrayed judaism. Just as most muslims are peaceful, many jews are peaceful and denounce the illegal and wrongful actions of the present state of israel. We know which camp you fall into.

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 10:14 PM

[sleep]

#45

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 06:11 PM

by David Harris
Here's my list. I invite readers to suggest other examples that particularly irk them.



First, Israel is the only UN member state whose very right to exist is under constant challenge. Notwithstanding the fact that Israel was created with the imprimatur of the UN and has been a member of the world body since 1949, there is a relentless chorus of nations, institutions and individuals denying Israel's very political legitimacy. No one would dare question the right to exist of Libya, Saudi Arabia or Syria. Why is it open hunting season on Israel, as if we didn't know the answer?

Second, Israel is the only UN member state that's been publicly targeted for annihilation by another UN member state. Think about it. The Iranian president calls for wiping Israel off the map. Is there any other country that faces such an open call for genocidal destruction?

Third, Israel is the only nation whose capital city, Jerusalem, is not recognized by other nations. Imagine the absurdity of this. Foreign diplomats live in Tel Aviv while conducting virtually all their business in Jerusalem. Though no Western nation questions Israel's presence in the city's western half, where the prime minister's office, Knesset and Ministry of Foreign Affairs are located, there are no embassies there. In fact, look at listings of world cities, including places of birth in passports, and you'll often see something striking - Paris, France; Tokyo, Japan; Pretoria, South Africa; Lima, Peru; and Jerusalem, sans country - orphaned, if you will.

Fourth, the UN has two agencies that deal with refugees. One, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), focuses on all the world's refugee populations, save one. The other, the United Nations Refugee and Works Administration (UNRWA), handles only the Palestinians. But the oddity goes further than two structures and two bureaucracies. They have two different mandates. UNHCR seeks to resettle refugees; UNRWA does not. When, in 1951, John Blanford, UNRWA's director, proposed resettling up to 250,000 refugees in Arab countries, those countries refused, leading to his resignation. The message got through. No UN official since has pushed for resettlement.

Moreover, the UNRWA and UNHCR definitions of a refugee differ markedly. Whereas the UNHCR targets those who have fled their homelands, the UNRWA definition covers "the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948," without any generational limitations.

Fifth, Israel is the only country that has won all its major wars for survival and self-defense, yet it's confronted by defeated adversaries who insist on dictating the terms of peace. In doing so, ironically, they've found support from many countries who, victorious in war, demanded -- and got - border adjustments.

Sixth, Israel is the only country that has been censured by name -- not once, but nine times -- since the new UN Human Rights Council was established in June 2006. Astonishingly, or maybe not, this UN body has failed to adopt a single resolution critical of any real human rights abuser. When finally discussing the Darfur situation, the Council shamefully balked at pointing a finger at Sudan.

Seventh, Israel is the only country that, in violation of the spirit of the UN Charter, isn't a full member of one of the five regional blocs -- Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, Latin America, and West Europe and Others (WEOG) -- that determine eligibility for candidacy for key UN posts. While Israel achieved a breakthrough in 2000 and joined WEOG, its membership is limited to New York, not other UN centers, and is both conditional and temporary.

Eighth, Israel is the only country that's the daily target of three UN bodies established solely to advance the Palestinian cause and to bash Israel -- the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People, and the Division for Palestinian Rights in the UN's Department of Political Affairs.

Ninth, Israel is the only country that is the target of a boycott by the British-based National Union of Journalists. An earlier British boycott against Israeli academic institutions was voided on a technicality because the union that adopted the measure merged with another. There is now an incipient call by some in the British Medical Association to exclude its Israeli counterpart from the World Medical Association.

And tenth, Israel is the only country where some associated with its majority population, i.e., Jews, openly call, for political or religious reasons, to dismantle the state. Is there a comparable situation to those religious voices of Neturei Karta, for example, who traveled to Teheran to join publicly with a leader seeking Israel's destruction, as well as those political extremists who seek to delegitimize the State of Israel and call for a "one-state" solution? Speaking of our own worst enemies... Tackling any one of these ten, much less all of them, is a daunting challenge, to state the painfully obvious. And, as I suggested, this list is far from complete. But it gives a sense of what's going on beyond the daily headlines.

The old ad used to say that you don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's Jewish rye bread. Well, surely, you don't have to be an ardent pro-Israel activist to be troubled by the unjust treatment of Israel. All it takes is a capacity for outrage that things like this are going on before our very eyes.

#46 John_Ventureville

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:21 AM

I feel like this entire discussion was a microcosm of the Middle East itself. I just wish the United States would become totally free of the need for the oil there. And that the Jews, Arabs and Persians could learn to live in harmony. Perhaps we will see one out of two happen within my lifetime?

John Grigg : )

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#47 samson

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 01:54 PM

What was this thread about again? Hate? Justice? Christ...

Isreal is guilty of hate mongering, propaganda, land-stealing, murder, pillage, and oppression of the palestenian people. They have heartlessly driven the rightful owners the land to the brink of anhilation, forcing them into the hell-hole that is the gaza-strip. Isreal and it's actions are the sole reason for the violence and horror in the area.
They have used every method available to spread propaganda and make themselves look like victims. They have succeeded in that, and now the western world backs them up as they dispense retribution on the surrounding nations for the crimes they think the islamic front is responsible of.

The Islamic front (all the various groups of islamic terror. Hamas and the like), is guilty of hate mongering, propaganda, land-stealing, murder, pillage, and of oppression of the isreali people. They have heartlessly attacked the rightful owners of the land to the brink of terror that they are too scared to even allow arab settlements. The Islamic front and it's actions are the sole reason for the violence and horror in the area.
They have used every method available to spread hate and make themselves look justified in their holy war. They have succeeded, and now the Islamic world backs them up as they dispense divine retribution ™ on Isreal for the crimes they think Isreal is responsible of.

Different tactics, different hats, same goddamn thing.
The world is not black and white. Get used to it.
Justice was dead anyways.




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