45 replies to this topic

[the steve]

So, allow me to give a brief rundown...

Drug use:
I'm 22 years old.
From about the age of 15-19 I smoked marijuana frequently.
Also during this time, from about 17-21 years of age I used MDMA 7 times, did moderate amounts of cocaine on about 10 different occasions, consumed hallucinogenic mushrooms about 6 times.
I also smoked cigarettes for a few years, sometimes light, sometimes heavy. I quit cold turkey 6 months ago(on new years).

FATIGUED:
The problem is that I've seemed constantly fatigued and tired for a couple years now. I can perform physical tasks when I force myself and when necessary(such as work), but when I'm not working or I have free time, I usually feel like I'm ready for sleep no matter the amount I got the previous night. I feel sluggish, lethargic, fatigued, etc. My short term memory is laughable. My motivation and ambition has all but withered and completely died. Once a book worm adolescent with unwavering high grades, I now find new information somewhat difficult to fully comprehend and almost impossible to retain.

I never feel like going out and participating in social events. I'd rather sit around at home and do nothing. It's getting to the point where I really need to find a solution as it's effecting my relationship with my girlfriend and the deminishing relationships with friends as I've become very anti social.

Exercise:
Currently my aerobic and anaerobic exercise is little to none, but even during times when I'm doing high intensity exercise such as participation in basketball leagues I would still feel the same throughout the day. I do lift weights 3-4 times a week.

Diet:
I eat pretty well. I eat lean meats, eggs, tuna, skim milk, natural peanut butter, fruits 2 or 3 times a day, and green vegetables 2 or 3 times a day. My main carb intake comes from brown rice and unflavored oatmeal. For the most part I avoid sugar, processed foods, and bad fats. I drink nearly a gallon of water a day.

Supplements:
Creatine (5g a day) - Been using on and off for the past year or so.
Fish Oil (2-3g a day) - Been using for about a year
Multivitamin
Whey Protein
B12 (1000mcg a day)
St John's Wort (900 mg a day) - Just started using recently
edit(knew I was forgetting some):
ZMA
5 HTP- (100mg a day)

Solution?
My doctor prescribed me Wellbutrin for depression about a year and a half ago but due to my opposition of medication, I didn't take the meds. I'm starting to wonder if I should have, though I've heard of "crashes" and relapses after discontinuing SSRI's or dopamine reuptake inhibitors.

I'm hoping the St John's Wort may provide some relief though I've only been taking for a couple weeks now.... My diet and weight lifting regime has been pretty steady for a few years now but this consistent state of fatigue is really beginning to become extremely irritating.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Supplements? Diet change? Nootropics?

I realize the importance of researching for ones' self and believe me I have. I just discovered this website today and the overwhelming majority of the posts seem to be authored by highly intelligent and knowledgeable individuals so any input or suggestions from any of you would be greatly appreciated. I thank those of you in advance who take the time to read this all, especially to those who can offer some greatly needed advice.

Edited by the steve, 11 June 2007 - 10:43 AM.

[medievil]

first of all, i highly doubt that your memory problems are caused because of MDMA as you didnt take it much

sint johns worth is a very weak supplement, also nootropics that increase choline could make your depression whorse
i suggest tianeptine, wich is very low on side effects

"but due to my opposition of medication"
why?

[zoolander]

your use of MD(M)A, cocaine and mushrooms is considered novice use (1-9 uses). Only a smallish percentage of novice users experiance mood and cognitive (depression 33%, mood fluctuations 38%, anxiety 32%, poor concentration 19%, memory problems 19% and so on) problems*.

Steve have you had your blood biochemistry taken. You blood biochemistry will show if there are any physiological irregularities. If your doctor is aware of your use he may also want to have a look at blood values.

[the steve]

Cholinergics could make depression worse? Hmm, hadn't found anything yet that has said such.

And I'm somewhat opposed to the mainstream medications because of their numerous side effects, lack of long term side effect information, and because of like I said the crashes and relapses people experience when stopping them.

Nootropics are nutrients or plant components, right? I'd trust that over Prozac or Wellbutrin.

[the steve]

your use of MD(M)A, cocaine and mushrooms is considered novice use (1-9 uses). Only a smallish percentage of novice users experiance mood and cognitive (depression 33%, mood fluctuations 38%, anxiety 32%, poor concentration 19%, memory problems 19% and so on) problems*.

Steve have you had your blood biochemistry taken. You blood biochemistry will show if there are any physiological irregularities. If your doctor is aware of your use he may also want to have a look at blood values.

Could the years of marijuana use have an effect on my mood and cognitive function?

What would the test be exactly? I recently went to the doc for a sinus problem. Seeing as how I don't visit the doc often(before this last time I hadn't been there in a year and a half) I told him of my constant fatigue, but he didn't inquire further. He did a complete blood count to test for diabetes and anything else irregular I suppose but apparently the levels were ok.

[Athanasios]

What would the test be exactly? I recently went to the doc for a sinus problem. Seeing as how I don't visit the doc often(before this last time I hadn't been there in a year and a half) I told him of my constant fatigue, but he didn't inquire further. He did a complete blood count to test for diabetes and anything else irregular I suppose but apparently the levels were ok.

Yeah, diabetes, hydration, and anemia would be the ones they would immediately check for. The other things I would look at is liver, kidney, and thyroid. After all that, I would have probably came to the same conclusion of depression/stress. By the way, I am not a doctor.

[medievil]

Cholinergics could make depression worse? Hmm, hadn't found anything yet that has said such.

And I'm somewhat opposed to the mainstream medications because of their numerous side effects, lack of long term side effect information, and because of like I said the crashes and relapses people experience when stopping them.

Nootropics are nutrients or plant components, right? I'd trust that over Prozac or Wellbutrin.

i'm not a fan of prozac and wellbutrin either, thats wy i suggested tianeptine wich is VERY low on side effects and at the same time it induces neurogenesis in the brain

for more info on choline and depression, read this site, has all the references you need
http://nootropics.com/index.html

[deekz]

your use of MD(M)A, cocaine and mushrooms is considered novice use (1-9 uses). Only a smallish percentage of novice users experiance mood and cognitive (depression 33%, mood fluctuations 38%, anxiety 32%, poor concentration 19%, memory problems 19% and so on) problems*.

Steve have you had your blood biochemistry taken. You blood biochemistry will show if there are any physiological irregularities. If your doctor is aware of your use he may also want to have a look at blood values.

just curious, what are the %'s for those that were/are recreational users for 10 years or so (on and off.)

[the steve]

i'm not a fan of prozac and wellbutrin either, thats wy i suggested tianeptine wich is VERY low on side effects and at the same time it induces neurogenesis in the brain

for more info on choline and depression, read this site, has all the references you need
http://nootropics.com/index.html

What if I took tianeptine and also a low dose of pramiracetam? Would the chances of choline increasing depression be offset by the tianeptine?

[medievil]

i'm not sure if the racetam's induce depression, as they also potentiate serotonin and dopamine
choline precursurs and the "maoi's of choline"(forgot their name) do tough

[zoolander]

for a long time (100+ experiances) user of MDMA (Ecstatsy) percentage of subjects (n=37) experiance problems

Depression 65%
Mood fluctuations 80%
Impulsivity 32%
Anxiety 60%
Poor concentration 70%
Memory problems 73%

Weight loss 48%
Infections 35%
Tremors/twitches 38%
Poor sleep 52%
Sexual problems 22%

Source:
Understanding Drugs and Behaviour by Andrew Parrott (Author), Alun Morinan (Author), Mark Moss (Author), Andrew Scholey (Author), p80

[chilie lips]

I would get full blood work done, including endocrine and neurotransmitter function.

[the steve]

I think it's my dopamine levels.

Any suggestions?

Deprenyl?

[medievil]

my suggestion is a combo of deprenyl + tianeptine, both are VERY low on side effects and have alot of benefits
also add in Ashwagand, Rhodiola rosea, SAMe / TMG and inositol
i would also say resveratrol but i dont know how it interferes with tianeptine

Edited by medievil, 12 June 2007 - 12:05 PM.

[jackj]

i'm thinking about trying deprenyl but from what i've read they say it might only be helpful if over 30... can anyone confirm this?

[medievil]

i'm thinking about trying deprenyl but from what i've read they say it might only be helpful if over 30... can anyone confirm this?

not true

[fast turtle]

In my experience, teen drinking has the worst effect of all on developmental cognitive skills.

deprenyl + tianeptine

Tianeptine increases DA and NE by inhibiting their reuptake and then MAO-B can't do anything to that because it's inhibited.. I'm not sure this is safe at all.

My recommendation is 2-4 grams inositol and 5-10mg hydergine/daily, and resistance training at a gym.

But in the end you might just wanna accept you're lazy and stop taking so many pills!

[medievil]

"Tianeptine increases DA and NE by inhibiting their reuptake and then MAO-B can't do anything to that because it's inhibited.. I'm not sure this is safe at all."

are you sure if it inhibits DA? even if it does it would be safe, but i dont beleive it does

[ajnast4r]

The problem is that I've seemed constantly fatigued and tired for a couple years now. I can perform physical tasks when I force myself and when necessary(such as work), but when I'm not working or I have free time, I usually feel like I'm ready for sleep no matter the amount I got the previous night. I feel sluggish, lethargic, fatigued, etc. My short term memory is laughable. My motivation and ambition has all but withered and completely died\

that sounds exactly like me before i found out i was allergic to wheat

[the steve]

But in the end you might just wanna accept you're lazy and stop taking so many pills!

I'm not lazy though. Despite my fatigue I still work, I still do everything necessary to keep up with things, I've worked 60 days for at least 12 hours a day without a day off and that was hard physical labor.

It's not that I'm lazy, I push myself to do things, it's just that I'm in a zombie-like state when I do.

that sounds exactly like me before i found out i was allergic to wheat

You know it's funny you mention that because not only 2 or 3 days ago I printed out information on gluten free diets. I think I'm going to try a wheat free diet just for kicks and see if it has any efect.

[nootropicpete1]

how early in life have you started having these symptoms

[the steve]

Seems to have been going on for the past couple years, maybe 2 and a half. So that'd be around 19 and a half or 20 years of age.

[fast turtle]

are you sure if it inhibits DA? even if it does it would be safe, but i dont beleive it does

Yes. That's why it's banned in many countries (abuse potential + liver problems associated with it)

[nootropicpete1]

Get heavy metal, thyroid, anemia, and hypoglycemic tests

Try hypoallerginic diets

detoxify your body: example - go on a 14 day vegetable juice fast

Jog slow and steadily 20 minutes every morning. (all it takes is to wake up 25 minutes earlier. you better do this.)

Take a complete mineral supplement at night. Play this game - http://www.brainmetr...m/concentration at night for one hour or chess. Finish the night in your room stretching and breathing right on preferably a yoga mat on the floor for 20-30 minutes with meditation and harminous calming music. Apply nasal opening spring strips to breathe better for sleep. Try candle aroma therapy in your bed for stress reduction and euphoria for a solid sleep.



Don't listen to some idiots here or in your life who can only make you feel worse or piss you off, a.k.a. bob_d and luv2increase. The lather who does not give any advice, instead throws around random diagnoses to piss you off because he is mad at his life. Just ignore their posts such as one where i saw someone write that you were lazy, which is stupid because you wouldn't be on this forum.

Find a GF. If you have one then do everything to keep her and take her out frequently. Even a regular girl to talk to online will help stress and self-esteem

Read INTERESTING books on philosophy and awakened state of mind.

Don't watch TV. DON'T PLAY VIDEO GAMES! Don't go on the computer more then 1 hour per day. (be careful computers are addicting, 1 hour usually doesn't cut it. It is better to hide your computer or unplug all the wires and never use it. If you have computer HW go to the library)

In the meantime download brain sound studio to listen to stimulating sounds for doing your HW, reading, ext. - http://www.hitsquad....ainSoundStudio/ - its cognitive effects are similar to amphetamines except for motivation.


Finally, take out a piece of paper and a pen and write down everything you don't like about yourself and why you are depressed/stressed in bullets. Cross out everything one at a time when you reach a conclusion on what you should do about it. Once everything is crossed out, rip up the paper and throw it out. Begin today, to change yourself and set a reputation for yourself as being a hardworker, focused, determined, and occupied.

Don't go to a psychologist. F*ck them. They are not telepathics. I consider them "authorized drug dealers."

workout and try to eat healthy. Personal trainers help, but i recommend the book "Starting Strength" which is the best workout book period you can buy. PM me if you need diet advice.

Whatever you do, don't think that you are helpless. There are 6 billion people in this world. Imagine what kind of worse conditions some people are in and imagine how much people have what you have. Trust me i have it several times worse. Review your emotions and change them to positive, consistent emotions.

Just live life dude.

Edited by nootropicpete1, 14 June 2007 - 06:06 PM.

[medievil]

are you sure if it inhibits DA? even if it does it would be safe, but i dont beleive it does

Yes. That's why it's banned in many countries (abuse potential + liver problems associated with it)

your talking about amineptine...

[medievil]

your symptons sound like ADD, both deprenyl and tianeptine work for ADD, so i still suggest my regimen, it should work pretty good for you

[jackj]

your symptons sound like ADD, both deprenyl and tianeptine work for ADD, so i still suggest my regimen, it should work pretty good for you

is there a reason for taking both?

reason is that i'm looking to try deprenyl.

personally i found piracetam along with hydergine only exacerbated depressive episodes. hydergine also gave me nasal and neck stiffness which was annoying. i've stopped taking that and just make sure i take regular lecithin along with piracetam as that seems to take the edge off everything (does this make sense chemically?). while taking hydergine i also found i was short tempered at work and unpleasant socially. without it and this mix i can still concentrate enough without becoming a monster.

i agree with the exercise plan (balance is everything) as well as red beans! yes, not sure why but i always feel good after a meal with them in it.

Edited by unlucid, 13 June 2007 - 01:40 PM.

[medievil]

no real reason, you can try deprenyl on its own

[the steve]

Get heavy metal, thyroid, anemia, and hypoglycemic tests

Did already, all fine.

detoxify your body: example - go on a 14 day vegetable juice fast

I don't really buy into detoxifying diets. I eat plenty of foods high in antioxidants and I eat clean already.

Jog slow and steadily 20 minutes every morning. (all it takes is to wake up 25 minutes earlier. you better do this.)

Jogging is something I must start doing again. I used to jog and mix it up with interval running and other anaerobic sports like boxing.

Read INTERESTING books on philosophy and awakened state of mind.

Don't watch TV. DON'T PLAY VIDEO GAMES! Don't go on the computer more then 1 hour per day. (be careful computers are addicting, 1 hour usually doesn't cut it. It is better to hide your computer or unplug all the wires and never use it. If you have computer HW go to the library)

In the meantime download brain sound studio to listen to stimulating sounds for doing your HW, reading, ext. - http://www.hitsquad....ainSoundStudio/ - its cognitive effects are similar to amphetamines except for motivation.

workout and try to eat healthy. Personal trainers help, but i recommend the book "Starting Strength" which is the best workout book period you can buy. PM me if you need diet advice.

Whatever you do, don't think that you are helpless. There are 6 billion people in this world. Imagine what kind of worse conditions some people are in and imagine how much people have what you have. Trust me i have it several times worse. Review your emotions and change them to positive, consistent emotions.

Just live life dude.

See and it's not so much anymore that I feel mentally depressed, as I think I mostly overcame that a while ago, it's moreso that I'm just experiencing the physical aspects of it. For the most part I'm content with my life, I've got a beautiful girlfriend, great family, a job(which is hard to come by in my city's stagnant economy), etc. Like I said, it's not so much I'm sad, it's just that I feel like I have physical symptoms of depression.

I think I'm going to see a sleep specialist soon as I think my sleep cycles may be out of wack. I enter REM sleep during 10 or 15 minute naps, I don't feel refreshed at all when I wake up, I'm excessively tired, etc.

If the sleep specialist doesn't find any indicators of sleep apnea, narcolepsy, or circadian rhythm, which the more I read I'm really beginning to think it may be circadian rhythm or mild narcolepsy, then I'm going to start implementing some of the nootropics that you layed out.

What store is BN?

Thank you much for the long and detailed response, I appreciate it. I'll be checking out the link to that game and the links to the audio. Also thanks for the book suggestion, but I've spent countless hours reading up on nutrition and working out. That's probably the one area I have the most knowledge in.

I'll update after I've gone to the specialist, especially if he doesn't diagnos me with anything in which case I would have some more questions about the nootropic stack you layed out

[rebuild101]

What store is BN?

http://www.bulknutrition.com

YMMV with them. My personal opinion (based on experience) is that you will get very good prices from them. However, the quality may be lacking compared to other companies, especially those that sell sups capped already.