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Ron Paul on Forign Policy


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#1 Zarrka

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 04:48 AM


Ok. So I think this section of the forums have established that Ron Paul is an interesting politician who has certainly made an impact on the Internet community, even if they continue to not show him in the polls (there may be a conspiracy theory there, who knows)

I have been reading and writing a lot on Ethics and accountability of late. While discussing that with through various post grad channels, we got to talking of Ron Paul’s Foreign policy and exactly what he means and is committed to when he talks of simply withdrawing all international troops from the world and bringing them home.

I am not here to agree or disagree with this policy, but I would like to talk about the consequences of withdrawing troops, and what America can be held morally accountable for after they leave.

In the ME it’s a fairly clean-cut issue. They made a huge mess over there, have been doing so for many many years, and this time if they simply leave, they are sentencing many people to death by the war lords who will launch massive territorial disputes. Yes, what they are doing now is wrong, going in and simply killing people and trying to fight guerrilla tactics is another terrible situation. They way out of that problem are in no way clear, with no simple answer, so that will always be complicated.

But.

What about other cases such as Georgia, or even Taiwan? If America leaves Taiwan, the chances of china not taking them over within months is about zero. The issue here is that people make deals with countries, not administrations. If one president said they would help them, then that country will rely on the president’s country to help them even if that man is not re elected. If, under Ron Paul’s new foreign policy America leaves Taiwan, and china takes over, can the accountability be laid on Ron pauls government? By leaving, has he sentenced the entire population to fall under the dictatorship of China? Is that enough for accountability?

The same can be said with Georgia. America have been over there training their troops and helping them reinforce their northern border for quite a while now. (Kinda funny that now this is where they want to put the new fancy "anti missile" platforms) If Ron Paul's policy was passed, then how would their non-interference policy work in such a case?

I’m not sure if you can hold America accountable for things that happen after they leave, unless they were the ones who started the problem, which is why its helpful to separate the ME issues from things like Taiwan etc. I also think its interesting that he wants to get rid of the UN.

Anyway, what do you think? Where does accountability lie?

#2 Live Forever

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 05:13 AM

From what I understand, Ron Paul's international policy on the military is basically in line with the Democrats. He would like to get troops out of Iraq as soon as possible, but of course you can't pull them out overnight. (complicated issue in other words) I can't imagine that he has said that he would pull troops out of Taiwan and other places. Basically there are a lot of people saying what Ron Paul is saying on Iraq, just not on the Republican side.

Of course, there is a lot more to like about Ron besides just his view on international troops. (in my opinion of course :))) There are some things that I disagree with him on (abortion being the biggest one probably) but he is much closer to my viewpoint than most of the candidates.

I really don't know how much of a shot he has, though, catichka. I wouldn't worry too much until his poll numbers come up some.

#3 eternaltraveler

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 06:41 AM

The US should not be the world's police. We are hated everywhere as a result and we get nothing for it. It costs us 600 billion per year. Money that could be spent elsewhere, or better yet, left with the people that actually earned it in the first place.

Iraq is a mess because there are 3 groups there that hate eachother and the only thing that could hold them together in one country was a tyranical dictator. We either have to assume the role of tryanical dictaor, or leave.

Besides if I were you I would worry far more about the US policing more and more actions in the world, than the consuquences of us taking a step back. Having a single super power throwing it's weight around isn't good for anyone.

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#4 Zarrka

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 06:57 AM

ok im going to start this again.

I do not advocate the US being the world police. im not trying to hold any political views here.

what i am asking, is now that they HAVE set themselves up like that, CAN they walk away? i didnt want to talk of the ME as it is too complex an issue for their to be a clear cut answer. But issues like taiwan are very clear cut.

America should never have been i nthat p[osition, but NOW if they leave taiwan, then China will take over. the military are in there under an agreement.

All im asking is do they have the right to walk away from that? I dont know the amswer to that, hence why id like to tlak about it.

Also liveforever, i know theres a lot more to Ron paul then his international policy lol but i just thought it would be an intersting topic, and on thats not often talked about.

#5 lucid

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 07:40 AM

Well right now international policy is pretty dern important. I am scared by my government, a lot. I agree with elrond. We don't need to be the world's police. If taiwan gets invaded then its china's fault. The Us and china are eachother biggest trading partners. Perhaps us consumers wouldn't support chinese imports if they invade taiwan... If we didn't have such a dumb population it could work that way. Bottom line, we are responsible for ourselves. The standard libertarian line is this: If you want to help taiwan, then go buy a gun and head over there and join their army. I don't necessarily agree with this position, but I don't think its our job to police the world.

#6 Live Forever

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 07:50 AM

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#7 Zarrka

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 07:52 AM

ok i understand noone *wants* to be the world police.

but noone can deny that America has been the world police for a while.

This is not about what people "want". its about contries like Tawian who have made a protection deal with the US. If they simply withdraw and then they get invaded, can the US be seen as morally accountable? thats all im asking.

is it ok for America just to turn around and say "i quit" then simply withdraw everywhere around the world they are at, regardless of the consequenses?

#8 Aegist

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 08:01 AM

Maybe an analogy would help to break down the emotional attachment we feel with this situation, since we are, to differing degrees, actually involved with this.

If an old lady wants to go to some store the other side of the city, but in order to get there she has to go through some rough areas. You then volunteer to assist her (keep her safe from the bad men), and so she accepts your assistance. You start walking, you get half way there, you are in the middle of the bad zone, and then you decide that this is boring and you want to go home.

Is that morally acceptable?

The question has nothing to do with whether you should have offered to assist her, whether it is your obligation to assist her in the first place, whether you would be the sort of person to assist her, but instead the question is: What is you moral obligation, given the circumstances as they stand?

#9 Live Forever

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 08:10 AM

Maybe an analogy would help to break down the emotional attachment we feel with this situation, since we are, to differing degrees, actually involved with this.

If an old lady wants to go to some store the other side of the city, but in order to get there she has to go through some rough areas. You then volunteer to assist her (keep her safe from the bad men), and so she accepts your assistance. You start walking, you get half way there, you are in the middle of the bad zone, and then you decide that this is boring and you want to go home.

Is that morally acceptable?

The question has nothing to do with whether you should have offered to assist her, whether it is your obligation to assist her in the first place, whether you would be the sort of person to assist her, but instead the question is: What is you moral obligation, given the circumstances as they stand?

Actually, that scenario proposes that there is a necessary end in sight. A more accurate scenario would be to say that there is an old lady who moves to a dangerous area of town on the assurance from you that you will live with her and protect her. After a few years of living with her you get tired of doing so because of the burden of always having to help her to the store, help her clean up, do chores for her, etc, etc. Would it be right for you to tell her that you are no longer happy with the arrangement and that you were going to leave in a short period of time? (or you could do the walking to the store scenario, but it would have to be an infinitely long walk that never ended, or at least with no end in the foreseeable future) I think that you could come up with some kind of an arrangement for someone else to help her, or for you to build up the structure of her house so that it couldn't be broken into and get her some protection for walking around.

To relate it back to the peacekeeping scenarios for the US forces, I think that there would probably be a middle ground where there was a phased withdrawal with a more international (UN?) peacekeeping force taking the reigns over more, or something like that. You can always come up with some type of solution if you put your mind to it.

#10 Aegist

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:30 AM

And I think that is part of the problem that Cat sees with Ron Paul. Ron Paul, as far as u can tell from his talks, doesn't seem to have any interest in putting his mind to the problems the US has created in the past. He seems inclined to just "pull out!" asap.

*note: Having no inclination to fix problems caused in the past, but knowing that they exist is far better than all of the alternatives that I have seen: "What problems have America made? They all hate us because of our freedom! We have done nothing wrong!"

LOL.

#11 lucid

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 05:22 PM

"What problems have America made? They all hate us because of our freedom! We have done nothing wrong!"

Sadly that is the standard party line. It makes me want to cry.

He seems inclined to just "pull out!" asap.

Well Ron Paul does have a more complicated strategy than just 'pull out'. He advocates persueing the US populations best interest (not to be confused with special interest groups interests). Ron Paul also points out that we are in a good position:
The us is a large country surrounded by weak and friendly neighbors (Mexico and Canada) and separated from the rest of the world by a huge ocean. Intervening in world affairs that are not likely to affect us has large costs for the US, it also makes us enemies... Sure we may make some people happy we are helping country X, but we also piss off group Y whom we are killing. And then there is the problem that most forgein policy has been a HUGE failure over the past 50 years. While I don't necessarily advocate not intervening in forgein affairs at all, We are in a safe geographic position, and there should be considerable debate in congress (not just the presidents cabinet) about whether going to war or putting troops in another country is truly in our best interest especially considering the failure of our forgein policy over the past years.

#12 Liquidus

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 05:56 PM

The United Nations should be the world police. The best way to govern the world is with a consensus of post-industrial countries who work together to ensure freedom and equality. Why this seems to be such a hard concept for some people just doesn't quite make a lot of sense to me. Politics generally changes the scope of this, but when the US wanted to go into Afghanistan, they had the support of the UN. When the US wanted to into Iraq, they were strongly discouraged by the UN. Turns out the Iraq war has been nothing less than a debacle, and the UN was right all along.

I'm not picking sides, I'm just going by record, and as it is, the US has dropped the ball once, and this should be their only chance. The powers that be should be humble, apologize for the embarrassment, and reacquaint themselves on good terms with the UN.

#13 Live Forever

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 06:46 PM

Yeah, this peacekeeping stuff should be an international force. When you have one country that does all the work, it creates a lot of ill will towards that one country. If it were a multinational force, maybe the people would get mad at the organization (the UN or whomever), but they couldn't get mad at any one country.

As bad as we have mucked things up in Iraq and other places, I don't want someone in the White House trying to expand the US's influence into more countries, when we should definitely be going the opposite direction.

#14 Zarrka

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 11:08 PM

I absolutly agree that it SHOULD be the UN. but the UN is ahrdly a real armed force. get the US out and get a real UN army in. sure. i really do like that plan.

But given that the UN DOES NOT HAVE SUCH AN ARMED FORCE and america is CURRENTLY playing world police, can they pull out and quit with out moral accountability?

Please keep in mind that im not trying to get a conversation of who should police the world. But if America leaves key places like Taiwan, and there is noone there to replace them then China takes over taiwan, can the US be held Morally accountable? thisis the question im trying to raise.

#15 mike250

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 12:02 AM

I personally would not send any force into there. The US has made a blunder of a mess but I don't expect the UN to do a better job at all.

#16 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 12:28 AM

The United Nations should be the world police. The best way to govern the world is with a consensus of post-industrial countries who work together to ensure freedom and equality.


Power inexorably tends to corrupt. Who provides oversight when the "UN army" gets out of line? We already have plenty of problems with authorities taking away liberties when it's only on the local or national level. A lot of work needs to be done on developing a just transparent society before we can safely pass authority for the entire world to a single entity. Personally I'm not comfortable having a single human in charge of that entity. I have always felt that people who have a long time left to live ought to do a better job setting policies than the current system where most are within 30 years of their own death before assuming power.

#17 mitkat

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 12:49 AM

The US should attempt to instill a more well-rounded sense of moral responsibility into the federal government, and not let their armed forces travel the world like a giant, unprotected penis. Regions like Taiwan and the greater ROC that need foreign aid are different from previous raids, in that hey actually are in need of aid (albiet mainly military, from what I understand) and aren't just potential goldmines. Also, in the event of an all-out battle between Taiwan and the P.R. o' China, would the US actually wage war with China?

The idea should be to work more co-operatively with local governments and peoples, and appearing as aids and support, not a military presence...whoops! That's the job of the United Nations. Say what you will about the UN, but when you mix nationalism and jingoism into what is supposed to be seen by the global community as peacekeeping, it can't help turn parts of the world against the nation.

#18 Aegist

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 01:03 AM

You guys are on drugs aren't you?

#19 mitkat

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 01:03 AM

Ron Paul also points out that we are in a good position: The us is a large country surrounded by weak and friendly neighbors (Mexico and Canada)


LAWL [lol]

Canadian invention of UN peacekeeping http://www.unac.org/...eacekeeping.asp

Gov't Info http://www.vac-acc.g...urces/peacefact

Past peacekeeping missions, not current (for teh weak and friendly) http://www.forces.gc...rrent_ops_e.asp

Does Ron Paul really judge a country's strengths merely by it's military might? Maybe the quote is out of context

#20 Zarrka

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 01:07 AM

again. that is all very well and good. maybe i should have posted this in the ethics section, so people would understand that im asking an ethical question here and NOT TRYING TO START A DEBATE ON WHO SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE THE WORLD POLICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Given that they HAVE acted as the world police for a while, and given they they DO have agreements with certian nations re: protection. IS IT MORALLY ACCEPTABLE FOR THEM TO SAY I QUIT AND GO HOME?

AND, IF THEY DO GO, AND THEN THOSE CONTIRES THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO PROTECT GET TAKEN OVER, CAN THE US BE HELD MORALLY ACCOUNTABLE???

#21 niner

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 01:32 AM

YES IT IS MORALLY ACCEPTABLE!!! Who the hell cares if the PRC takes back Taiwan? What do you think they are going to do, nuke them? Look at Hong Kong. Not much of a disaster there. For the US to get into a war with the PRC over some ancient 1950's ideological fight would be the height of lunacy.

#22 mitkat

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 02:37 AM

again. that is all very well and good. maybe i should have posted this in the ethics section, so people would understand that im asking an ethical question here and NOT TRYING TO START A DEBATE ON WHO SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE THE WORLD POLICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Given that they HAVE acted as the world police for a while, and given they they DO have agreements with certian nations re: protection. IS IT MORALLY ACCEPTABLE FOR THEM TO SAY I QUIT AND GO HOME?

AND, IF THEY DO GO, AND THEN THOSE CONTIRES THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO PROTECT GET TAKEN OVER, CAN THE US BE HELD MORALLY ACCOUNTABLE???


PLEASE SPEAK UP, I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

#23 Live Forever

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 02:38 AM

I GUESS WE ALL SHOULD TYPE IN CAPS NOW.

kidding.

catichka, why can't we elaborate on the most morally acceptable way to pull out? You are saying the only 2 options we are allowed to pick from are to stay in altogether or pull out all together? That is kind of limiting when there are other very good options that allow for the US to withdraw and still provide protection for the countries you are worried about. (in other words, it is morally acceptable to pull out as long as you have made arrangements for the UN or whomever to step in in our place, and arguably it is morally acceptable even without such an arrangement in many of these cases)

#24 Zarrka

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:10 AM

i have no problem with morally accesptable methods of pulling out. i jsut want the question answered, which so far, niner has been the first to state an opinion

niner: yuor claim is now that its morally acceptable to pull out. you use hong kong as an example. The reason why that example is flawed is because it was a contract agreement between england and China, and if you have noticed in that situation, things in hong kong have become rather bad since england left.

the reason why Taiwan is so interesting is because there was an agreement of protection. if the US leave then china will take over. did i suggest that the US bomb china over it? no, i did not. All i said was that china are not there cause there are US forces on the ground, and as NEITHER side wish to create an international incident, china has kept away.

Liveforever, your point is what im really after here. you say that its arguably morally acceptable for the US to pull out with or with out contingent plans in place for taiwan. So argue it for me, how can it be morally permissable, or even not morally permissable for the US to withdraw from Taiwan knowing the consequenses of their withdrawal?

#25 mike250

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:12 AM

if the situation in Iraq still remains the same after the American forces pull out, then I don't seen why the USA should be blamed?

#26 DJS

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:14 AM

Iraq is a mess because there are 3 groups there that hate eachother and the only thing that could hold them together in one country was a tyranical dictator.  We either have to assume the role of tryanical dictaor, or leave.


The real question that needs to be asked is why do these three desparate groups need to be held together as one country?

The land carving performed by the British after they took over jurisdiction from the Ottomans is a hotly debated subject in history. Cultural ineptitude or nuanced realpolitik? Doesn't really matter now, does it? A mess is a mess (and we willfully inhereted all of them, starting with Suez in 57).

To me, it is just flat out ridiculous to even entertain the idea of going the UN route. Never gonna happen. The US and Israel would never be willing to give the Arab League that much leverage in the Middle East region. This type of talk isn't even on the table at high level policy discussions.

What happens with a pull out? Anarchy? For a while, but then we'd witness Turkey moving into the Kurdish north (something they really really don't want to do because it would destroy their EU aspirations) and Iran solidifying the Shiite region as a satellite. Again, not gonna happen.

Expect the status quo for the foreseeable future. [thumb]

#27 Zarrka

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:18 AM

mike250 i didnt really want to talk about Iraq as the situation is simply too complex. Simple situations like Taiwan are better for establishing some kind of bench mark before more complicated issues like Iraq can really be talked about, because there is so much more going on in that situation.

#28 mike250

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:19 AM

the USA will probably negotiate the Iraqi cake with the rest of the countries.

#29 mike250

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:21 AM

mike250 i didnt really want to talk about Iraq as the situation is simply too complex. Simple situations like Taiwan are better for establishing some kind of bench mark before more complicated issues like Iraq can really be talked about, because there is so much more going on in that situation.


I don't think there will be a benchmark for Iraqi situation. The Taiwan example is just very different.

#30 DJS

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:22 AM

Simple situations like Taiwan 


Taiwan, a simple situtation?? [lol] [tung]




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