44 replies to this topic

[zoolander]

here's the study

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2007 Aug 16;

    Effects of a multi-nutrient supplement on exercise performance and hormonal responses to resistance exercise.

    Kraemer WJ, Hatfield DL, Spiering BA, Vingren JL, Fragala MS, Ho JY, Volek JS, Anderson JM, Maresh CM.

    Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT, 06269, USA.

    The purpose of this study was to determine the influence of a comprehensive multi-component nutritional supplement on performance, hormonal, and metabolic responses to an acute bout of resistance exercise. Nine healthy subjects ingested either Muscle Fueltrade mark (MF) or a matched placebo (PL) for 7 days. Subjects then reported to the laboratory, ingested the corresponding supplement, and performed two consecutive days of heavy resistance exercise testing with associated blood draws. MF supplementation improved vertical jump (VJ) power output and the number of repetitions performed at 80% of one repetition maximum (1RM). Additionally, MF supplementation potentiated growth hormone (GH), testosterone, and insulin-like growth factor-1 responses to exercise. Concentrations of circulating myoglobin and creatine kinase (CK) were attenuated immediately following resistance exercise during the MF trial, indicating that MF partially mediated some form of exercise-induced muscle tissue damage. In summary MF enhanced performance and hormonal responses associated with an acute bout of resistance exercise. These responses indicate that MF supplementation augments the quality of an acute bout of resistance exercise thereby increasing the endocrine signaling and recovery following heavy resistance exercise.

    PMID: 17701421 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Supplement Facts

at 39.95 for 10 serve it's a little expensive IMO. I could easily put something a similar pre-exercise shake together at half the cost. I don't have any marketing overheads of course

Here's the product page.

What are people's thoughts?

If you were making your own equivalent supplement what would you change?

[ajnast4r]

nothing special... there are much cheaper powders w/ similar ingredients on the market.

this is the stuff to take if you have the money:
http://www.bodybuild...re/star/x10.htm

or combine:
http://www.bodybuild.../clabs/mag.html
and
http://www.bodybuild...e/sv/xtend.html

[Shepard]

Even if it was cheap, it wouldn't be impressive.

If you were making your own equivalent supplement what would you change?

If we're talking something to do the same thing as this would do...maybe coffee, a cookie, and a couple of creatine capsules. Actually, that would probably be more effective.

[wayside]

Isn't Advocare an MLM company?

That alone is enough reason to avoid this stuff.

[zoolander]

ok then...suggestions?

Were talking about using a pre-workout shake here.

Protein intake before exercise compared to after: Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Tipton et al.:

results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an essential amino-acid carbohydrate supplement (EAC) solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.

note it says "essential amino acid mix" and not "Whey protein or any other whole protein. A more recent study by the same authors , titled "Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise looks at whole protein intake"

Previously, we demonstrated that net amino acid uptake was greater when free essential amino acids plus carbohydrates were ingested before resistance exercise rather than following exercise. However, it is unclear if ingestion of whole proteins before exercise would stimulate a superior response compared with following exercise……the response of net muscle protein balance to timing of intact protein ingestion does not respond as does that of the combination of free amino acids and carbohydrate.

I'm hoping to build this pre-workout drink with everyone here step by step. Our first step to building this anabolic pre-workout drink would be an essential amino acid mix. Let's start:

1. Recommendation on a high quality essential amino acid mix??

[sentinel]

That is outlandishly expensive!

I'm looking at this at the moment because I train at c 6:30am so really can't consume "real" food before a workout.

Suggestions:

Carnitine - For fat utilisation and energy production.

Beta-Alanine for muscular endurance via carnosine production and subsequent delay/slow down of lactic acid production

Citrulline - fatigue product (LA, Ammonia etc) removal and potentiating Creatine which will no doubt crop up in a minute.

Glutamine - Contentious, some believe some don't (I don't)

Taurine - Not essential in itself but would work well with any stimulant and creatine that is thrown into the mix (although if I'm honest I'm probably just regurgitating the "Redbull" subliminal science to some degree here.

Probably some form of Arginine (Alpha/Pyro/dunno) but I'll leave that to someone else as I haven't looked at it for a couple of years.

Most of the rest would be Post workout.

BTW, Zoo - I thought you were pro-whey protein before during and after w/o up until recently. Why focus on the aminos now?

Sentinel

[mike250]

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Jan;292(1):E71-6. Epub 2006 Aug 8.Click here to read Links
Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise.
Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Aarsland AA, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

The Univ. of Birmingham, School of Sport & Exercise Sciences, Edgbaston, Birmington B15 2TT, UK. K.D.Tipton@Bham.ac.uk

Timing of nutrient ingestion has been demonstrated to influence the anabolic response of muscle following exercise. Previously, we demonstrated that net amino acid uptake was greater when free essential amino acids plus carbohydrates were ingested before resistance exercise rather than following exercise. However, it is unclear if ingestion of whole proteins before exercise would stimulate a superior response compared with following exercise. This study was designed to examine the response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of whey proteins both before and following resistance exercise. Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of two groups. A solution of whey proteins was consumed either immediately before exercise (PRE; n = 8) or immediately following exercise (POST; n = 9). Each subject performed 10 sets of 8 repetitions of leg extension exercise. Phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by approximately 50%, and net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive following ingestion of proteins at either time. Amino acid uptake was not significantly different between PRE and POST when calculated from the beginning of exercise (67 +/- 22 and 27 +/- 10 for PRE and POST, respectively) or from the ingestion of each drink (60 +/- 17 and 63 +/- 15 for PRE and POST, respectively). Thus the response of net muscle protein balance to timing of intact protein ingestion does not respond as does that of the combination of free amino acids and carbohydrate.

[mike250]

I'd get some EAAs from TP for a start and combine that with a a malto/dextro mix and perhaps some creatine as well.

[Shepard]

What's the time period for "pre-workout"? Yeah, EAA mix taken immediately before a workout is going to beat whey, but it has more to do with the timing than the magic of EAAs, I would think.

But, if we were going for something 30 minutes or less pre-workout,

http://www.primaforc...aleaa_prima.htm

plus some extra histidine and leucine would be pretty good from an amino standpoint.

[sentinel]

I seemed to have jumped the gun with my list of non-essential Aminos [lol] , I'm sure we'll get to them eventually.

[dannov]

Take a whey shake an hour and a half before you lift, and drink a BCAA cocktail with sugar and gatorade during. Insulin spike from sugar should spike that then-digested whey into your muscles during the workout, plus the BCAAs. Can get good BCAAs L-Glutamine for cheap from nutrabio.com among other places on Google.

Insulin spikes aren't the best thing for you, but if you're not diabetic/overweight and fairly young it's not an issue. Check out the AKG stack on nutrabio.com too, I believe that's like NOXplode (which I currently use--expensive but gives me energy I need pre-workout). Ordered AKG, hoping it provides me with at least the same feeling that I get from NOXplode, at a much cheaper price (and nastier taste no doubt since it's straight and not mixed with anything but I don't care).

[mike250]

just had another look at those studies and from what I see so far they have not established that free form EAA's are superior to whey or even equal. They just establish that free form EAA's are effective.

[dannov]

Free Forms forego digestion and go to the bloodstream and muscles very quickly (20-30 mins after ingestion). Whey needs to be digested.

Reviewed the ingredients on the label of Muscle Fuel on their site, thinking perhaps that the quanitities of the ingredients would justify the price--nope.

[mike250]

I would skip on those and just use some hydroylzed whey pre-workout personally speaking. another option is free-form essential amino acids with BCAA and maybe some extra leucine.

[dannov]

I would skip on those and just uset some hydroylzed whey pre-workout personally.

Ya, I mentioned I think a couple posts ago I take a shake about 90 mins before the workout to give it some time to get outta my stomach and into the bloodstream. Whey itself is really just a combination of various aminos and artificial and natural flavoring when you really break it down.

[mike250]

hydrowhey is predigested so it bypasses the stomach flooding the bloodstream with aminos faster than regular protein powder, so 90 minutes would not be necessary. are you using whey isolate?

[Gerald W. Gaston]

If I recall correctly Whey gets in pretty quick. 20-30 minutes.



Edit: Although possibly not the most unbiased, authoritive site to visit, here is one article (with references) that helps support this claim:

http://www.bodybuild...atternorton.htm


Not that it matters, but my current favorite tasting (yes it matter to me esp. in the am) WPI is AI's Choc/PB

[Gerald W. Gaston]

dannov, Are you concerned at all with the use of GPA and GCC in many products like NOXplode? I admit to not having read anything beyond David Barr's two articles with concerns to their safety.

[zoolander]

I all for EAA's before and whole (whey) protein afterwards.

[mike250]

Whey needs to be digested but it is digested very quickly. It has been demonstrated to cause a substantial spike in amino acid flux and protein synthesis well within an hour. Hydrolysate is even better as it is already pre-digested.

Free form EAA's are absorbed but very poorly compared to peptides. They are also more expensive. I think combining them with some hydrowhey is the way to go.

Edited by mike250, 06 September 2007 - 02:53 AM.

[mike250]

Bibliographic Information

PEPT1-mediated uptake of dipeptides enhances the intestinal absorption of amino acids via transport system b0,+. Wenzel, Uwe; Meissner, Barbara; Doring, Frank; Daniel, Hannelore. Institute of Nutritional Sciences, Molecular Nutrition Unit, Technical University of Munich, Freising-Weihenstephan, Germany. Journal of Cellular Physiology (2001), 186(2), 251-259. Publisher: Wiley-Liss, Inc., CODEN: JCLLAX ISSN: 0021-9541. Journal written in English. CAN 134:176091 AN 2001:40673 CAPLUS

Abstract

Free amino acids and short chain peptides are the main digestion products of dietary proteins in the small intestine. Whether there is a direct interference in transport of both groups of degrdn. products is not known. We used human intestinal Caco-2 cells to investigate whether the absorption of dipeptides by the peptide transporter PEPT1 alters the apical uptake of free cationic and neutral amino acids. Influx of L-[3H]Arg into Caco-2 cells was Na+-independent and mediated mainly by the b0,+ system recognizing both cationic and neutral amino acids. Preincubation of cells with 10 mM of selected neutral, mono- or dicationic dipeptides increased the influx of L-Arg up to fourfold. Preloading with equiv. concns. of the corresponding free amino acids also increased L-Arg influx but dipeptides always proved to be more efficient. The obsd. trans-stimulation was found to be specific for cationic amino acids since transport of L-[3H]Ala remained unaffected. We here demonstrate for the first time a direct interplay in amino acid and peptide transport in intestinal cells that may selectively alter the kinetics of amino acid absorption.

[dannov]

Good posts Mike. I'll have to check out which sort of powder I have when I get home from work.

Honestly Frank, I'm not too familiar with GPA and GCC. What I do know is that NOXplode does have a ton of extra unnecessary stuff in it that has nothing to do with the effect that it provides (vasodilation, energy). It is for this reason that I purchased the AKG stack from nutrabio.com (I'm sure it's available elsewhere, just a combination of amino acids that will give you that same pump and other good health benefits, minus the additives). Between NOXplode's price and quantity for that price, along with other unnecessary additives, I'm just finishing up my last bottle then shelfing the product. If AKG doesn't give desired effect, then I'll try out white flood.

[Shepard]

It's not that GPA and GAA are harmful as much as it's stupid on the part of the manufacturer to include them, in my opinion. You can take steps to counteract any issues with either of them, but they are still going to compete with creatine absorption.

I hope that everyone using individual amino acid mixes to increase vasodilation have already tried sufficient amounts of carbohydrates before and during exercise.

[dannov]

I try to always eat a good healthy, steady amount of quality carbs throughout the day. Whole grain, oatmeal, etc. Also a good amount of fruits. I try to avoid anything that'll weigh in my stomach during a workout though.

[zoolander]

Assuming that we all agree that an essental amino acid (EAA) mix is a good choice before training then what are our choices?

Opinions on brands and mixes? Preferably a powdered mix that we can mix into a pre-workout mix

[mike250]

if I were to use EAAs then I'd go with trueprotein because thats where I buy most of my protein from. as for the mix itself I'd mix those together with BCAAs and malto/dextrin.

[ajnast4r]

http://www.bodybuild...re/star/x10.htm

end of story!

[edward]

On the product that started this thread: As others have said, nothing special, especially at the price. Furthermore the company and their marketing screams "at least to me" walk away.

On Protein:

As far as whey protein and protein timing (vis a vis workout) I have found that combing ginger powder and fresh ginger with my protein shake post workout to be very effective in helping me gain muscle. (yes I am able to gain muscle on a life extension calorie restricted diet) Ginger mg per mg has the ability to digest/breakdown protein 180 fold better than papaya extract which has been shown to be comparable to naturally produced human digestive enzymes. It has also been clinically proven to treat nausea better than most pharmaceuticals, the mechanism of action being that it will allow your stomach to clear its contents quickly and your intestines absorb your food extremely efficiently. So to get Whey protein in the muscle even quicker try a teaspoon of powdered ginger (can be bought in bulk cheap) and a teaspoon of fresh pickled ginger (about $2 a bottle at any asian food market) and then blend.(yes it is not real yummy but you will get used to it and taste isnt the point anyways) Much better than these expensive systems that supposedly get the amino acids into the muscle quicker by some fancy albeit probably bullshit theory that sounds good but has not been tested.

Before bed eat Casein protein as it will prevent you from getting too catabolic while you sleep. In the morning for breakfast repeat the whey protein ginger shake. Then throughout the day eat variety of protein, egg, meat, casein, more whey but stay away from soy.

[zoolander]

wooohhhh wait up one minute edward. I wouldn't call Muscle fuel bullshit I would call it run of the mill and expensive.

So to get Whey protein in the muscle even quicker try a teaspoon of powdered ginger (can be bought in bulk cheap) and a teaspoon of fresh pickled ginger (about $2 a bottle at any asian food market) and then blend.(yes it is not real yummy but you will get used to it and taste isnt the point anyways) Much better than these expensive systems that supposedly get the amino acids into the muscle quicker by some fancy albeit probably bullshit theory that sounds good but has not been tested.

Advocare muscle fuel was developed by a very well known and published/respected researcher in the field of muscle biochemistry and training (Kraemer). Well at least I'm assuming Kraemer created it.

What makes you think that the ginger works apart from your own subjective experiance? Ginger being an effective way to increase muscle gain is a bit far fetched don't you think? and just because ginger is just as effective as some pharmaceuticals in preventing nausea don't make the assumption that ginger is more effective than amino acids.

In short........an essential amino acid mix before training has been shown by multiple research teams (mainly Lands et' al) to to significant increase muscle protein synthesis. Do you have any references for ginger?

[mike250]

I think I have to chime in again. EAAs are good but they have poor absorption and from what I see so far they have not established that free form EAA's are superior to whey or even equal. They just establish that free form EAA's are effective.

taking EAAs with some peptides in a mix is a very good pre-workout idea and would enhance their absorption due to an interplay between Free AA transporters and peptide transporters.

also what exactly is so special about advocore, apart from some ingredients like creatine and arginine. No peptides included, no BCAAs and not even EAAs. D-ribose, as far as my knowledge is concerned, is more suitable if you have cardiac ischemia.

Edited by mike250, 09 September 2007 - 08:26 AM.