108 replies to this topic

[hivemind]

I am just writing stuff. I am not on the witness stand. :D

The truth is that aspartame raises methanol levels. Many people say it raises them more than fruit juice. I just did not find any data about fruit juice. And fruit juices also have ethanol in them.

Edited by hivemind, 07 October 2012 - 11:52 PM.

[Hebbeh]

I am just writing stuff. I am not on the witness stand. :D

The truth is that aspartame raises methanol levels. Many people say it raises them more than fruit juice. I just did not find any data about fruit juice. And fruit juices also have ethanol in them.

You were adamantly making up claims as if they were fact. That is how these internet rumors get started and repeated. And yes, it is obvious you were just writing stuff.

[hivemind]

I am just writing stuff. I am not on the witness stand. :D

The truth is that aspartame raises methanol levels. Many people say it raises them more than fruit juice. I just did not find any data about fruit juice. And fruit juices also have ethanol in them.

You were adamantly making up claims as if they were fact. That is how these internet rumors get started and repeated. And yes, it is obvious you were just writing stuff.

No, I was just saying my opinion. Nobody can show data about fruit juice. So, it is also just a rumor to say that fruit juice has a similar effect.

The burden of proof is on the guy who claims that aspartame is harmless. I'm not very convinced.

Edited by hivemind, 08 October 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[niner]

No, I was just saying my opinion. Nobody can show data about fruit juice. So, it is also just a rumor to say that fruit juice has a similar effect.

The burden of proof is on the guy who claims that aspartame is harmless. I'm not very convinced.

I posted a link to a paper with a reference to the actual measurement on methanol in fruit juice. Logic would say that the more methanol you consume, the higher your blood level would be. Ethanol (in excess) will bind to the receptor on the optic nerve that large quantities of methanol can damage, thus protecting it, but it doesn't keep methanol from being absorbed into the bloodstream, so whatever small amount of ethanol is in fruit juice isn't going to keep blood levels low. You're making the statement that aspartame raises the blood level of methanol more than fruit juice, and that statement is what's lacking support.

[Sillewater]

Arch Intern Med. 1989 Oct;149(10):2318-24.
Safety of long-term large doses of aspartame.

Leon AS, Hunninghake DB, Bell C, Rassin DK, Tephly TR.





Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 1997 Aug;21(5):939-43.
Endogenous production of methanol after the consumption of fruit.

Lindinger W, Taucher J, Jordan A, Hansel A, Vogel W.

[hivemind]

No, I was just saying my opinion. Nobody can show data about fruit juice. So, it is also just a rumor to say that fruit juice has a similar effect.

The burden of proof is on the guy who claims that aspartame is harmless. I'm not very convinced.

I posted a link to a paper with a reference to the actual measurement on methanol in fruit juice. Logic would say that the more methanol you consume, the higher your blood level would be. Ethanol (in excess) will bind to the receptor on the optic nerve that large quantities of methanol can damage, thus protecting it, but it doesn't keep methanol from being absorbed into the bloodstream, so whatever small amount of ethanol is in fruit juice isn't going to keep blood levels low. You're making the statement that aspartame raises the blood level of methanol more than fruit juice, and that statement is what's lacking support.

Ethanol reduces the toxicity of methanol:

Methanol poisoning can be treated with the antidotes ethanol or fomepizole.^[15][18][19] Both drugs act to reduce the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition, so it is excreted by the kidneys rather than being transformed into toxic metabolites.^[15] Further treatment may include giving sodium bicarbonate for metabolic acidosis, and hemodialysis or hemodiafiltration can be used to remove methanol and formate from the blood.^[15] Folinic acid or folic acid is also administered to enhance the metabolism of formate.^[15]

The aspartame critics are making that statement. I have tried to find information about that, but have not found it. Why did they study the effects of methanol from aspartame in the University of Barcelona and why is doctor Soffritti speculating about the carcinogenic effect of methanol from aspartame consumption? Mr. Sofritti spoke in a TV-documentary that was aired here a couple of years ago. He claimed that he had had a conversation with an EFSA boss, who had said to him that even if aspartame was toxic, they could never admit it now, because it has become so widely used. :D

Edited by hivemind, 08 October 2012 - 03:07 AM.

[hivemind]

Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 1997 Aug;21(5):939-43.
Endogenous production of methanol after the consumption of fruit.

Lindinger W, Taucher J, Jordan A, Hansel A, Vogel W.

This dietary pectin may contribute to the development of nonalcoholic cirrhosis of the liver.

Apples cause cirrhosis of the liver?

[robosapiens]

Anecdotal field report here.
Aspartame is deadly - for me...

Everytime I consume, or have consumed Aspartame, I experienced severe heart rhythm disturbances.

In fact, I went to the E.R. because of it once, before I realised what the issue was, damn near killed me.

I can't even have a stick of gum containing it without causing my heart to kick and flutter.

.

Edited by robosapiens, 08 October 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[niner]

No, I was just saying my opinion. Nobody can show data about fruit juice. So, it is also just a rumor to say that fruit juice has a similar effect.

The burden of proof is on the guy who claims that aspartame is harmless. I'm not very convinced.

I posted a link to a paper with a reference to the actual measurement on methanol in fruit juice. Logic would say that the more methanol you consume, the higher your blood level would be. Ethanol (in excess) will bind to the receptor on the optic nerve that large quantities of methanol can damage, thus protecting it, but it doesn't keep methanol from being absorbed into the bloodstream, so whatever small amount of ethanol is in fruit juice isn't going to keep blood levels low. You're making the statement that aspartame raises the blood level of methanol more than fruit juice, and that statement is what's lacking support.

Ethanol reduces the toxicity of methanol:

Methanol poisoning can be treated with the antidotes ethanol or fomepizole.^[15][18][19] Both drugs act to reduce the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition, so it is excreted by the kidneys rather than being transformed into toxic metabolites.^[15] Further treatment may include giving sodium bicarbonate for metabolic acidosis, and hemodialysis or hemodiafiltration can be used to remove methanol and formate from the blood.^[15] Folinic acid or folic acid is also administered to enhance the metabolism of formate.^[15]

The aspartame critics are making that statement. I have tried to find information about that, but have not found it. Why did they study the effects of methanol from aspartame in the University of Barcelona and why is doctor Soffritti speculating about the carcinogenic effect of methanol from aspartame consumption? Mr. Sofritti spoke in a TV-documentary that was aired here a couple of years ago. He claimed that he had had a conversation with an EFSA boss, who had said to him that even if aspartame was toxic, they could never admit it now, because it has become so widely used. :D

The quoted text makes my point. Methanol can't be excreted by the kidneys unless it is first absorbed into the bloodstream. You can't fob the statement off on "the aspartame critics", because you are one. You're making the statement in an international forum. Some random doctor can speculate about anything, but that doesn't make it true.

[Hebbeh]

Anecdotal field report here.
Aspartame is deadly - for me...

Everytime I consume, or have consumed Aspartame, I experienced severe heart rhythm disturbances.

In fact, I went to the E.R. because of it once, before I realised what the issue was, damn near killed me.

I can't even have a stick of gum containing it without causing my heart to kick and flutter.

.

I know of at least 1 person and have heard of others having the same experiences with fish oil. Many are allergic to peanuts, shell fish, gluten, etc. The same can be said for many prescription meds. I could go on but the point is there is always going to be the odd exception. That doesn't make any of this bad for the rest.

[hivemind]

The quoted text makes my point. Methanol can't be excreted by the kidneys unless it is first absorbed into the bloodstream. You can't fob the statement off on "the aspartame critics", because you are one. You're making the statement in an international forum. Some random doctor can speculate about anything, but that doesn't make it true.

Even if they are both absorbed, fruit juice has ethanol which causes methanol to be excreted and not converted into toxic substances.

Edited by hivemind, 08 October 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Hebbeh]

The quoted text makes my point. Methanol can't be excreted by the kidneys unless it is first absorbed into the bloodstream. You can't fob the statement off on "the aspartame critics", because you are one. You're making the statement in an international forum. Some random doctor can speculate about anything, but that doesn't make it true.

Even if they are both absorbed, fruit juice has ethanol which causes methanol to be excreted and not converted into toxic substances.

So you have proof any ethanol produced completely cancels ALL effects from the methanol....or is this just more conjecture?

[Sillewater]

Its just conjecture. The treatment for methanol poisoning is LARGE amounts of ethanol. This is to out-compete the methanol at the enzymes that convert it to formaldehyde. If less than 1% of the enzymes are occupied by methanol ethanol does jack shit.

[Ben]

I wonder what it is about psychology that attracts people to the aspartame health debate.

[Sillewater]

Am J Clin Nutr. 2012 Oct 24. [Epub ahead of print]Consumption of artificial sweetener- and sugar-containing soda and risk of lymphoma and leukemia in men and women.Schernhammer ES, Bertrand KA, Birmann BM, Sampson L, Willett WW, Feskanich D.

Prospectively evaluated from the NHS:
RESULTS:

When the 2 cohorts were combined, there was no significant association between soda intake and risks of NHL and multiple myeloma. However, in men, ≥1 daily serving of diet soda increased risks of NHL (RR: 1.31; 95% CI: 1.01, 1.72) and multiple myeloma (RR: 2.02; 95% CI: 1.20, 3.40) in comparison with in men without diet soda consumption. We observed no increased risks of NHL and multiple myeloma in women. We also observed an unexpected elevated risk of NHL (RR: 1.66; 95% CI: 1.10, 2.51) with a higher consumption of regular, sugar-sweetened soda in men but not in women. In contrast, when sexes were analyzed separately with limited power, neither regular nor diet soda increased risk of leukemia but were associated with increased leukemia risk when data for men and women were combined (RR for consumption of ≥1 serving diet soda/d when the 2 cohorts were pooled: 1.42; 95% CI: 1.00, 2.02).

The p-values seem to suggest a trend but if you take a look at the numbers it doesn't look like one exists. I'm not familiar with the statistics but I think the >1drink per day group skews the whole trend upwards while everything in between is the same. I also find it odd that it doesn't affect women.

http://seer.cancer.g...html/mulmy.html
http://seer.cancer.g...s/html/nhl.html

The pre-test probability is lower so the study may not have the power (which is unlikely considering the cohort and the 20yr f/u). But since women have decreased overall ADH activity as compared to men it could make sense.

Another interesting point is that when they stratified again by alcohol intake those with higher etoh intakes had lower risk (but they didn't provide the trend). This makes sense if is the methanol conversion that causes the problems. However this effect would only be present if people drank etoh and the diet soda at the same time (rum and coke?).

Just a side note: Harvard hospital withdrawn promotion of this study: https://embargowatch...partame-cancer/
Maybe its just politics who knows.

[theconomist]

I'm really interested in some closure if anyone could offer some; should we(or should we not) consume aspartame? Is it safe?

[Mind]

I'm really interested in some closure if anyone could offer some; should we(or should we not) consume aspartame? Is it safe?

Aspartame was first synthesized in 1965. Approved for use in the U.S. in 1981. It has been used quite widely since then. If there was an extreme toxicity or OBVIOUS mutagenic property associated with Aspartame it would have been discovered by now. We are talking decades of use and a lot of studies and no research results that really jump out as super-bad.

Some people can make intuitive speculation of why it might be bad, based on its chemistry, but it seems fairly safe on decade-long time scales.

Some people have sensitivities to Aspartame and it might not help if you are trying to lose weight or fight diabetes. These are valid reasons to not use it. There are other natural and artificial no-calorie sweeteners to choose from. Lately I have been using a stevia extract and saccharin (which has been used safely for over a century). My feeling is that using refined sugar to sweeten things I consume, is much more damaging - long term - than using artificial sweeteners. But that is just one person's OPINION.

Edited by Mind, 29 March 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[totalrecomp]

I am of the mindset that the occasional use of aspartame, say a diet soda or two on the weekend, is probably less damaging than the surges in cortisol experienced by those running around worrying about the dangers of it.

[theconomist]

I'm really interested in some closure if anyone could offer some; should we(or should we not) consume aspartame? Is it safe?

Aspartame was first synthesized in 1965. Approved for use in the U.S. in 1981. It has been used quite widely since then. If there was an extreme toxicity or OBVIOUS mutagenic property associated with Aspartame it would have been discovered by now. We are talking decades of use and a lot of studies and no research results that really jump out as super-bad.

Some people can make intuitive speculation of why it might be bad, based on its chemistry, but it seems fairly safe on decade-long time scales.

Some people have sensitivities to Aspartame and it might not help if you are trying to lose weight or fight diabetes. These a valid reasons to not use it. There are other natural and artificial no-calorie sweeteners to choose from. Lately I have been using a stevia extract and saccharin (which has been used safely for over a century). My feeling is that using refined sugar to sweeten things I consume, is much more damaging - long term - than using artificial sweeteners. But that is just one person's OPINION.

I am of the mindset that the occasional use of aspartame, say a diet soda or two on the weekend, is probably less damaging than the surges in cortisol experienced by those running around worrying about the dangers of it.

thank you both