299 replies to this topic

[william7]

You can not defend your beliefs by saying you believe. That is the definition of circular reasoning. Linking to web-pages of other people like you who base their own assertions on their “belief” doesn't cut it, it just makes your circular reasoning have a bigger circle. You need evidence. You have none. Not one scrap of evidence to back up anything you say above.

My beliefs are based on a mixture of evidence, my experience, and my reasoning therefrom. Everything in life is not black and white or apprendable strictly through science and analytical philosophy. You'll eventually find that life is much more complex than you thought and science and analytical philosophy to narrow and restrictive a paradigm for understanding and acting on life's mysteries and problems.

 

All sexual immorality - including that engaged in by heterosexuals - is wrong.

Immoral according to the tenants of your book. Which mountains of evidence demonstrate is false.

Morality as a concept is dangerous. When you believe in absolutes it becomes very easy to justify the most heinous of deeds.

It's better to use ethics.

How is homosexuality ethically wrong?

Homosexuality should be ethically wrong because it is useless and harmful and it possesses no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Of course, because I believe what the Bible actually says, I'm unable to engage in any heinous deeds to enforce any ethical or biblical standards of conduct.

One thing you never answered; you only dodged again and again Elijah. Is what happens when you treat a little girl as a girl, bring her up just the way you believe is right, and she still becomes a lesbian? Or are you saying that is impossible? Please be clear.

Apparently you believe that human sexual behavior is genetically predetermined and not modifiable by the environment or learning. What evidence and scientific reasoning do you have for this?

I believe the research and reasoning that says homosexuals are not born that way and became that way because of conditions in the family or bad role models in the community. See http://traditionalva...urban/three.php and http://traditionalva...urban/seven.php.

In prison, I studied a lot of social and behavioral science and observed and conversed with numerous homosexual prisoners - some who were homosexuals before incarceration and many who became homosexual as a result of incarceration. Much of my understanding of homosexuals and my opinions about them were formed from my prison experience. They were almost always more difficult to get along with and created more problems then the other antisocial prisoners.

[Live Forever]

Homosexuality should be ethically wrong because it is useless and harmful and it possesses no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

...other than the happiness of those in a relationship that are homosexual.

[mitkat]

Homosexuality should be ethically wrong because it is useless and harmful and it possesses no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

...other than the happiness of those in a relationship that are homosexual.

QFT [thumb]

Again, there is an essential contradiction if ethics quell personal freedoms and the greater pursuit of happiness for what, anywhere between 1-15% of the population? (http://en.wikipedia....ual_orientation)

[william7]

Homosexuality should be ethically wrong because it is useless and harmful and it possesses no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

...other than the happiness of those in a relationship that are homosexual.

From what I've observed and read, they're only happy for so long then the relationship breaks down. During their short period of happiness, they manage to be a bad influence on others as negative role models. Some of these people who are unable to find satisfaction or happiness within the homosexual relationship then go on to experimenting with other forms of bizarre and perverted sexual behavior.

[william7]

Again, there is an essential contradiction if ethics quell personal freedoms and the greater pursuit of happiness for what, anywhere between 1-15% of the population? (http://en.wikipedia....ual_orientation)

The greater pursuit of happiness as opposed to the temporary pursuit of sexual pleasure should be the key determinant of ethical behavior here.

[cyborgdreamer]

From what I've observed and read, they're only happy for so long then the relationship breaks down.

Most relationships do end in break ups. It's hard to find someone you can spend your life with, but if they want to, homosexuals can do so as well as anyone else.

[william7]

From what I've observed and read, they're only happy for so long then the relationship breaks down.

Most relationships do end in break ups. It's hard to find someone you can spend your life with, but if they want to, homosexuals can do so as well as anyone else.

Again, because we're biologically programmed for heterosexual behavior, going against the grain of the programming with homosexual behavior is not likely to work very well. This only seems logical to me. Our biological system just wasn't created for homosexual behavior.

I realize our fast paced capitalist/materialist society puts a great deal of stress on the heterosexual marriage bond and many break as a result. But common sense says the homosexual bond will break that much quicker under these conditions. Don't you agree?

[Live Forever]

Don't you agree?

No

[eternaltraveler]

Apparently you believe that human sexual behavior is genetically predetermined and not modifiable by the environment or learning. What evidence and scientific reasoning do you have for this?

I believe the research and reasoning that says homosexuals are not born that way and became that way because of conditions in the family or bad role models in the community. See http://traditionalva...urban/three.php and http://traditionalva...urban/seven.php.

Any data from any place calling itself "traditionalvalues.org" is so utterly biased that there is no point even arguing with it. One might as well argue that Noah's flood didn't happen with you.

I will however address your point by showing actual data which you will undoubtedly completely ignore, but others reading this exchange might find interesting.

In human beings it is generally understood that the anterior hypothalamus is the site where human reproductive functions are mediated, as well as strong reason to believe the neuronal circuits found there participate in the integration of all the factors that are required for sexual behavior including sexual preferences. In fact it has been found that there are clear differences between homosexual and heterosexual men notably in the suprachiasmatic nucleus, which is 1.7 times as large in homosexual men as in heterosexual men. 1 Also the 3rd interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus has been found to be a sexually dimorphic nucleus in the anterior hypothalamus, being twice as large in men as in women, what is interesting is that it is also twice as large in heterosexual men vs homosexual men 2. So while it is debatable whether or not this signifies an underlying genetic difference, what is markedly less debatable is that there is a clear physiological difference between homosexual and heterosexual men (ie not pyschological).

Of course so far all I've done is address men's sexual preferences on a physiologic basis, there is mountains more data out there. One would expect physiologic difference to be present in female sexuality as well, and indeed we do. In one study, also dealing unsurprisingly with the anterior hypothalamus it was found that male pheromone 4,16-androstadien-3-one while activating the anterior hypothalamus in heterosexual women did not do so in lesbian women, but was activated by the female pheromone estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol 3.

Of course the above only demonstrates physiological differences, and Elijah might say it was because the mother smoked crack while pregnant or some other bit of ignorance. Well, genetics are complicated, and specific genes or gene clusters involved in homosexual behavior haven't been mapped out yet. However we can surmise that genetic links exist simply because the likelihood of being homosexual is much higher for the other identical twins when one twin is homosexual than for fraternal twins 4

And I'll close with a quote from Steven Pinker, a professor of cognitive science at Harvard who wrote in the new york times:

Why didn't evolution shape straight men to react to their gay fellows by thinking: "Great! More women for me!" Probably the answer lies in a cross-wiring between our senses of morality and disgust. People often confuse their own revulsion with objective sinfulness, as when they dehumanize people living in squalor or, in the other direction, engage in religious rituals of cleanliness and purification. An impulse to avoid homosexual contact may blur into an impulse to condemn homosexuality.

1.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=2085769

2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=1887219

3.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

4.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

[eternaltraveler]

Much of my understanding of homosexuals and my opinions about them were formed from my prison experience. They were almost always more difficult to get along with and created more problems then the other antisocial prisoners.

also in regards to the above statement, while I will not discount your experience, I will say that if their were women in your cell block they would most certainly disagree with you (thats why we have segregated prisons).

[cyborgdreamer]

In human beings it is generally understood that the anterior hypothalamus is the site where human reproductive functions are mediated, as well as strong reason to believe the neuronal circuits found there participate in the integration of all the factors that are required for sexual behavior including sexual preferences.  In fact it has been found that there are clear differences between homosexual and heterosexual men notably in the suprachiasmatic nucleus, which is 1.7 times as large in homosexual men as in heterosexual men. 1  Also the 3rd interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus has been found to be a sexually dimorphic nucleus in the anterior hypothalamus, being twice as large in men as in women, what is interesting is that it is also twice as large in heterosexual men vs homosexual men 2.  So while it is debatable whether or not this signifies an underlying genetic difference, what is markedly less debatable is that there is a clear physiological difference between homosexual and heterosexual men (ie not pyschological). 

That is interesting. They should do a study to see whether those 'ex-gay' people have the same phisiological features.

[cyborgdreamer]

I don't believe homosexuality is genetically hardwired into the human psyche and can't be modified through learning. There may be a genetic predisposition for homosexuality but that's it.

Again, because we're biologically programmed for heterosexual behavior, going against the grain of the programming with homosexual behavior is not likely to work very well.

A bit of a contradiction here. First you said that sexuality is learned and then you say that we're all pre-programmed for heterosexuality. Did you change your mind?

[mitkat]

also in regards to the above statement, while I will not discount your experience, I will say that if their were women in your cell block they would most certainly disagree with you (thats why we have segregated prisons).

Not to mention that prison is not an accurate representation of society, nor are the homosexual encounters that occur in it.

[william7]

Any data from any place calling itself "traditionalvalues.org" is so utterly biased that there is no point even arguing with it.

I would probably disagree with them on most issues other than homosexuality. I haven't explored their website.

Of course the above only demonstrates physiological differences, and Elijah might say it was because the mother smoked crack while pregnant or some other bit of ignorance.

Nope, elijah would say the difference noticed in particular brain regions between homosexuals and heterosexuals probably developed as a result of engaging in the particular sexual behavior over time. I figure the brain is like a muscle in many cases. If you use it or work it frequently enough it's going to develop - or become more pronounced - in that particular area.

[william7]

That is interesting. They should do a study to see whether those 'ex-gay' people have the same phisiological features.

I agree. Ex-gay people who've become heterosexuals might show changes in the brain consistent with the sexual change if they do it early enough in life.

[eternaltraveler]

Nope, elijah would say the difference noticed in particular brain regions between homosexuals and heterosexuals probably developed as a result of engaging in the particular sexual behavior over time. I figure the brain is like a muscle in many cases. If you use it or work it frequently enough it's going to develop - or become more pronounced - in that particular area.

I'm afraid what you figure is incorrect. Those regions of the brain I mentioned reach their adult state by 2 years of age (most of it occurring in utero). Aside from a few regions such as the hippocampus and olfactory bulb brains in adult mammals are remarkably aplastic. However much research is going into the area to make adult brains more plastic so they can heal from injury and such. There was a few presentations at the SENS III conference on the matter that were very enlightening (but that's starting to get off topic).

I agree. Ex-gay people who've become heterosexuals might show changes in the brain consistent with the sexual change if they do it early enough in life.

as I said, adult brains don't change in the ways you allude (adult meaning older than 2 in this case). You should educate yourself in neuroscience before attempting to debate such things further.

[william7]

also in regards to the above statement, while I will not discount your experience, I will say that if their were women in your cell block they would most certainly disagree with you (thats why we have segregated prisons).

From what I observed, most homosexuals in prison were more aggressive, more antisocial and lower in intelligence than the straight prisoners. We had female prison guards and I believe they would probably agree with me for the most part. These prisoners were very sexually maladjusted and frequently exposed themselves as well as verbalized their sadistic sexual fantasies to female staff too.

[eternaltraveler]

I wasn't talking about female guards, I was talking about female prisoners.

I wonder how many people in there were there for rape (of women). Women would have much more to fear in such an environment. Most sexual predators are heterosexual males.

[william7]

as I said, adult brains don't change in the ways you allude (adult meaning older than 2 in this case). You should educate yourself in neuroscience before attempting to debate such things further.

I'll concede this point with you. I only have a very modest popular magazine (National Geographic, Reader's Digest, Newsweek) education in neuroscience. I was only stating what I felt to be correct from a limited layman's perspective.

[eternaltraveler]

no worries.

[william7]

Most sexual predators are heterosexual males.

Once in prison, many sexual predators will take what they can get. The sadistic sexual urge must be satisfied.

[eternaltraveler]

I don't doubt that.

[william7]

I don't believe homosexuality is genetically hardwired into the human psyche and can't be modified through learning. There may be a genetic predisposition for homosexuality but that's it.

Again, because we're biologically programmed for heterosexual behavior, going against the grain of the programming with homosexual behavior is not likely to work very well.

A bit of a contradiction here. First you said that sexuality is learned and then you say that we're all pre-programmed for heterosexuality. Did you change your mind?

For homosexuality, I believe an intervening modification of the environment or a substantial amount of learning needs to take place. For heterosexuality, I believe less learning needs to take place than with homosexuality because we're biologically designed for heterosexuality. It's what comes naturally.

Put two children - one a male and one a female - on a desert island and once they reach adulthood I'm sure they'll figure it out in no time.

[Futurist1000]

I think being gay depends on the environment of the womb. In the case of males, the chance of you being gay increases as the amount of older brothers you have increases. I don't know what the exact odds are, though. However, if you are the 5th boy in your family there is a much greater chance that you are gay than if you were the 1st born. I don't know what the case is for lesbians but I suspect it also has to do with the womb environment.
Womb enironment makes men gay

Previous research had revealed the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to be gay, but the reason for this phenomenon was unknown.

Professor Anthony Bogaert from Brock University in Ontario, Canada, studied 944 heterosexual and homosexual men with either "biological" brothers, in this case those who share the same mother, or "non-biological" brothers, that is, adopted, step or half siblings.

He found the link between the number of older brothers and homosexuality only existed when the siblings shared the same mother.

Writing in the journal, Professor Bogaert said: "If rearing or social factors associated with older male siblings underlies the fraternal birth-order effect [the link between the number of older brothers and male homosexuality], then the number of non-biological older brothers should predict men's sexual orientation, but they do not.

I also read that the corpus callosum is bigger in gay man as compared to straight men. That may mean that gay men's brains are more similar to women's brains on a certain level. It could be why homosexuals are somewhat more emotional than heterosexual males (just my own guess). The corpus callosum connects the two hemispheres of the brain which may lead to a more emotional view of the world. Interestingly, on IQ tests gay men perform more similarly to women than they do to heterosexual males. I think trying to change someones sexuality is impossible. Though a lot of gay males get married and have children. That may be due to the shame of coming out of the closet, as opposed to actually changing their sexuality.

Oh yeah and this too.
Gay Brothers

In a commentary that accompanies today's article, a group of neuroscience and psychology researchers from Michigan State University say one estimate suggests a million males in the U.S. are gay because their mothers had sons before them.

"If their mothers had carried only sisters before, the demographics say, those males would be straight. It stretches the meaning of the word to suggest that these boys and men 'choose' to be gay," they said in the commentary.

Edited by hrc579, 13 November 2007 - 02:25 AM.

[Live Forever]

I don't believe homosexuality is genetically hardwired into the human psyche and can't be modified through learning. There may be a genetic predisposition for homosexuality but that's it.

Again, because we're biologically programmed for heterosexual behavior, going against the grain of the programming with homosexual behavior is not likely to work very well.

A bit of a contradiction here. First you said that sexuality is learned and then you say that we're all pre-programmed for heterosexuality. Did you change your mind?

For homosexuality, I believe an intervening modification of the environment or a substantial amount of learning needs to take place. For heterosexuality, I believe less learning needs to take place than with homosexuality because we're biologically designed for heterosexuality. It's what comes naturally.

Put two children - one a male and one a female - on a desert island and once they reach adulthood I'm sure they'll figure it out in no time.

That is how I learned.

[william7]

That is how I learned.

Glad to hear this! As long as you stick to what you learned in your youth, you'll be okay.

[Shannon Vyff]

(they'll figure it out unless one is gay ) But--a boy and girl on an island, don't have a very good outlook for long term survival. Humans have evolved in social networks. I strongly believe that the collective intelligence and will of all humans are needed to propel us into the future that many of us would like to see--this includes different religions, different sexualities --anyone who is working to help create a better future.

I have gay friends, I have transgendered yet straight friends, also heterosexual friends--in the life extension community, my religious community, the transhumanist community and elsewhere. In some way we are all trying to help in this world-- and finding ways to include people rather than exclude seems better in the long run for further networking and collaboration to attain our common goals of survival.

[william7]

However, if you are the 5th boy in your family there is a much greater chance that you are gay than if you were the 1st born.

Being that far down in the pecking order itself might exert a negative influence that would predispose the child to homosexual influences from the environment. Whatever the reason, we should develop strong educational programs for families to use with children who may be susceptible to becoming homosexual. The right biblical/communal education is no doubt the solution.

[william7]

I have gay friends, I have transgendered yet straight friends, also heterosexual friends--in the life extension community, my religious community, the transhumanist community and elsewhere. In some way we are all trying to help in this world-- and finding ways to include people rather than exclude seems better in the long run for further networking and collaboration to attain our common goals of survival.

We could all do a better job of helping in the world and living out radically extended lifespans if we're all of one heart and mind like the early Christian Church in Acts. Acts 4:32. In fact, it won't work anyother way.

[sentinel]

Isn't it time the last 80% of this thread was split off into a "being gay's wrong, no it isn't" thread and moved to the I Can't Hear You, La,La, La,La sub-forum?