40 replies to this topic

[David]

Hugh, wonderfully put! Its good to see such passion. However...

"We no longer need the fear, sadness, and hatred that at one time served an adaptive purpose." Hugh. I would be interested to see the research that backs this. Or is this an opinion? Could it be that we are still being served by these emotions each and every day, on a level we don't yet have the level of intellect to comprehend?

"Our technology and social institutions have outstripped the ability of evolution's slow hand to keep up." Hugh. The same applies here. The proof that you are wrong is that we are still here. Please, don't for a second misundersand me, I am aware of the dangers we currently find ourselves in. But remember, the fear of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) is what has kept us alive. If we wern't so fearful the eagles among us would have pressed the button years ago. Would you take away this fear? How long before some evil bastard realised we were all drugged up and lovey dovey and decided to do exactly as they pleased, cos we're all so stoned we couldn't stop them?

Would you see your drug policy made compulsary? The purely evil among us would love to have us all on MDMA, it would make us easier to control and exploit. I can just see our multinational executives..."Oh, please please give me a workforce on MDMA, they would do everything I asked them 'cos they would LOVE ME. Even whilst I was bashing them for stuffing up." Do you get my point?

I'm no puritan Hugh, you name it, I've tried it. And liked it. No, LOVED it. And therin lies the problem. Eventually, nothing else matters. Where's the humanity in that?

Fuck chemistry, lets give humanity a chance!

Does anybody remember the name of the book where the whole civilisation uses Soma? BJ, I'm sure you would know, could you refer Hugh to this book for me?

Dave

[hughbristic]

"We no longer need the fear, sadness, and hatred that at one time served an adaptive purpose." Hugh. I would be interested to see the research that backs this. Or is this an opinion?

Combination of opinion, hypothesis and animating passion.

Could it be that we are still being served by these emotions each and every day, on a level we don't yet have the level of intellect to comprehend?

Yes, it could be. We would need to research this.

"Our technology and social institutions have outstripped the ability of evolution's slow hand to keep up." Hugh. The same applies here. The proof that you are wrong is that we are still here.

Probably not for long, and, in a sense that is the point.

Please, don't for a second misundersand me, I am aware of the dangers we currently find ourselves in. But remember, the fear of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) is what has kept us alive. If we wern't so fearful the eagles among us would have pressed the button years ago.

Why would we have developed such insane weapons in the first place, if it weren't for fear?

Would you take away this fear? How long before some evil bastard realised we were all drugged up and lovey dovey and decided to do exactly as they pleased, cos we're all so stoned we couldn't stop them?

Would you see your drug policy made compulsary? The purely evil among us would love to have us all on MDMA, it would make us easier to control and exploit. I can just see our multinational executives..."Oh, please please give me a workforce on MDMA, they would do everything I asked them 'cos they would LOVE ME. Even whilst I was bashing them for stuffing up." Do you get my point?

This is an issue. I am working on the hypothesis that love is mutally reinfoircing and transformative. Love breeds love. Once we experience love, we all seek it both in others and in ourselves. A well-formulated drug would allow us to achieve such love at will, and I guess I have a hard time believing that people would long choose to get their kicks exploiting and harming others when they could instead feel agape.

I suspect we would evolve new social structures to adapt to our changed natures. Hard to forsee at this point.

I'm no puritan Hugh, you name it, I've tried it. And liked it. No, LOVED it. And therin lies the problem. Eventually, nothing else matters.

Nothing else matters but love. Hmm... sounds good to me.

Where's the humanity in that?

Fuck chemistry, lets give humanity a chance!

Humanity has had its chance.[tung]

Does anybody remember the name of the book where the whole civilisation uses Soma? BJ, I'm sure you would know, could you refer Hugh to this book for me?

That would be Brave New World. Yeah Soma!

Hugh

[David]

As an option you might want to consider removing the lymbic system in the brain. That would remove most of your emotions, and if done skillfully enough, leaving you with your executive functions intact. A living, breathing, heart pumping, organic, emotionless robot, no less.

Or you could "rewire" the brain through cognitive behavioural therapy, which has been show to actually change brain circuitry (Baxter et.al., 1992).

Or you could elect officials willing to put all these drugs into your water. Don't expect the rest of the world to not notice, invade, conquer and enslave you though. Still, being off your face on the love drug of your choice, this probably wouldn't bother you would it?

You might notice the irony in the preceeding three paragraphs. I do however like you idea that love breeds love. Slots perfectly into the self fulfilling prophesy, a much studied psychological phenomena.

Still not keen on enslaving and controlling the human race chemically though, chains are chains, even if they're made of chemicals instead of steel.

Think I'll stick to the odd glass of red and my noradrenaline addiction.

Dave

[treonsverdery]

planetp

There are now over 100,000 people around the world who have learned it, and if you want I can put you in touch with some of them. We have not been written up in any "reputable" journal, as academic psychologist won't touch anything related to breathing with a ten-foot pole. However, we have taught lots of practicing psychologist who swear by it. Just let me know, and I can put you in touch with one of them

There is a journal of happiness research http://www.kluweronl...89-4978/current that publishes on what is called SWB I think they be thrilled to publish any technique measured with SWB forms, particularly if you do test retest after a while

Treon

[zacke]

David: How long before some evil bastard realised we were all drugged up and lovey dovey and decided to do exactly as they pleased, cos we're all so stoned we couldn't stop them?

Well, I do think that the mood enchancer that we are discussing here arent anything like heroine, cocaine and those drugs.
To abolish mental suffering does not mean you dont care about your lifesituation.
I do think that people because they are feeling well are able to stand up against oppression, instead of crawling into a corner and feeling depressed over the oppression.
The ones that have been able to get out of situations like that are the ones with high hopes and a positive attitude, and the best way to get that is by not feeling depressed.

[hughbristic]

I do however like you idea that love breeds love. Slots perfectly into the self fulfilling prophesy, a much studied psychological phenomena.

I do not have faith in God or heaven. Having faith in these things would have no effect on whether or not they were real. Wedded to violence, such faith is an unstoppable engine of destruction. However, having faith in love and non-violence is, as you so rightly point out, a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I truly believe that my neighbor is my brother and love him as I love myself, then I can awaken that fellow feeling in him. An intellectual recognition is not enough, one must feel that love viscerally. But for a few imperfect exceptions, such as Gandhi and MLK (and perhaps Jesus and Buddha mythically), it is exceedingly difficult to maintain this faith. If we could help make agape or ahimsa easier, I have a hard time seeing how this would be a bad thing. Hell, a love drug may well be a catalyst that makes its further use unnecessary.

Hugh

[David]

Interesting thoughts Hugh, interesting thoughts.

I had in my younger years (in a drugged state) wondered if perhaps the reason we are such a hateful lot is that we could be from another planet, (Don't laugh, I'm going somewhere with this!) and that some essential element was missing from our new earth bound environment, perhaps something that our bodies needed to give us the neurochemicals needed to supress our hatred.

One of the problems I see with using a drug is that there are going to be times when it's not available. A drug, by its exogenous nature, could never be relied upon, especially if its supply was controlled by market forces. Wouldn't it be better to train people and give them Emotionally Intelligent (EQ) skills? From birth? Make an open and loving nature a part of who they are?

I shake my head in disbelief that we still learn all sorts of stuff at school, but that EQ is still part of the hidden curriculum, instead of being a core subject, like maths and reading.

And yep, I agree, it is difficult to love your brother as you love yourself. Sometimes my brother (and sister, lets not forget them all!) lets me down. Sometimes forgiveness is difficult! Completely necessary though.

Also, some people don't love themselves enough to consider loving others in the same way. I try to do my part by positively reinforcing people as often as I can. You may have noticed!

Dave

[bacopa]

David I like what I'm hearing from you a truly humanisitc outlook on life. I agree that haing EQ skills should be compulsory.

I think idealy we could alter our neuro-chemical states such that we feel 'good' simply put while attending to real responsiblity and purpsoeful actions. I think therin lies the rub how to combine the two for mutually beneficial purposes.

Also as was said earlier by Hughbristic a mentally high society does not mean doped up necassarily you can be high and intelligent, again not mutually esclusive. Finally let us hope that our improved mental states will one day truly allow us to say wow look what we thought was healthy.

As for drugs being in short supply I'm not just talking a drug but a complete rewiring of the human brain minus the extraneous junk neuropathways and DNA that serve malevolent purposes. Our nano-enhanced brains will one day allow us to have these chemical highs minus the external drugs a truly self contained entity

[David]

Yep, I'm a humanist. Go Carl and the gang!

I see a few problems with your ideas. First and foremost, who gets to 'decide' what is extraneous junk in the human brain? If it's me, you have no problems. YOU decide! But what if it was up to the likes of Adolf, Saddam or Bush? Altering humans for their own political gains and Empire building motives? Eeeek!

When you talk about nanoenhanced brains allowing us to have chemical highs, are you suggesting we carry around little sacks of stimulants in our heads? Just self medicate whenever we feel like it? Shit, I wouldn't want you driving my taxi, doing my taxes or representing me in parliment!

I know, I'm biased, and your point about the types of drugs you are talking about not having any side effects hasn't eluded me. Unfortunately this is a fairytale. I know of no mood enhancing drug that isn't followed by an equalibrium swing back the other way afterwards.

I'm no expert, but I think this is because we have all the right amounts of seratonin, GABA, noripinephrine, dopamine we need for a happy healthy life. If you take an exogenouse drug, it does one of two things, it acts as either an agonist, or an antagonist. An agonist increases the affect of a neurotransmitter. An antagonist decreases neurotransmitter affect.

The body in turn goes out of its way to return itself to equalibrium. For example, if you are high, it recognises that you are high, and in a desparate attempt to increase your chances of survival, it fires up mechanisms to bring you down to your equilibrium level. Unfortunately due to the short term nature of most exogenous drugs, the body overshoots the mark and you cop the low it has handed you without the balancing affect of your drug, which has worn off. Strewth, it's not called a hangover for nothing! If you are more interested, you could look up a thing called the "opponent process theory". Interesting stuff!

It's also interesting that you have concentrated on the internal chemistry of the human organism as your solution. This is just one small part of the problem. The problem of hatred is a multidimentional one, including Biological, Behavioral, psychological, emotional, social/interpersonal and developmental factors. There isn't going to be a 'quick fix' with a drug. I predict that any such drug will compound the problem, not fix it. And if there is some kind of religious or governmental push to instill a 'drug regime', we are in for a hell of a rough time.

Quick fixes just hide the symptoms of the problem. Best to adress the source. So far, teaching emotional intelligence is the best bet we have, whilst dealing with short term emergencies with pain killers, whether they be for broken limbs or broken hearts. And I stress SHORT TERM with relation to drugs/pain killers.

I would like to acknowledge that I admire your motive of decreasing suffering. This is an admirable stance. Puts you heads and shoulders above those only interested in personal gain. Not really all that keen on your proposed method though. It is interesting discussing it with you though, you are really making me think!

Dave

[randolfe]

Oh my, David does have "faith" in nature and the adaptive mechanisms of the human body.

I think several things have been left out of this discussion. Prozac (sterilizes and desexualizes you) and Zoloft (haven't tried that one) and MDMA (sexualizes and sensualizes you according to most accounts) aren't the only chemical fixes.

A friend told me how he had been tested and had a "zero" testosterone level. After using ointments for several weeks, he strength greatly improved. Apparently, shots of testosterone are heavy duty aggression-enducing treatments.

This friend also goes to a "pill doctor" and uses dexadrine spanules every day. Then he uses Zanax to go to sleep. All of this is paid for by medicaid because he is on SSI.

I did radio programming on addiction many years ago. A heroin junkie explained to me that if I just stuck a needle in my arm, a smooth warmth would engulf my body, my cares would melt away and I would find total peace and happiness right here and now. I am sure he was right. I never stuck a needle in my arm or even sniffed heroin because I didn't want to risk spending the rest of my life chasing the next fix.

I've started using melatonin recently because I read it gave you more vivid dreams. I believe it does. In the extreme case, you can just go smoke opium in an opium den and dream happily ever onward till your money runs out. I must admit that experience sounds inviting. Fortunately, there are no opium smoking dens in my neighborhood.

I would really like to know what drugs were listed as "good drugs" in the previous mentioned writings. We all seem to forget that we live in a drug-saturated society. All around us are nicotine addicts, alcohol users and abusers. The Mormons even disapprove of coffee and cola drinks because they contain caffine and give you a boost.

Last week's discussion about psychedelics showed only a few Immortalists to have had much experience with them. Having used them in the 1960s, I suspect that they generally create mind-altering experiences which makes one more open to mystical thinking. That is why all the hippies picked up on gurus, etc.

I think amphetamines are one of the most interesting type of drugs. They are used to treat attention-deficit disorder in kids, to treat depression, even in the military they are used to give fliers going on long missions that extra energy necessary for a long hard grind. As one friend once observed: "Ups are great for working and making money." But now we have an epidemic of methamphetamine
abuse in rural areas. In small towns, they are using this stuff to keep themselves feeling good while unemployed.

Maybe, no drug is either good nor bad. Perhaps they are all like certain technologies. They can be used for good purposes or abused. I have mixed feelings on the subject.

[randolfe]

I just explored some of the links given in the earlier parts of this post. I found this one to be very interesting. It tells you about all these different drugs and their effects.

To the extent I could tell, the descriptions here were really excellent. I have been taking serotonin to sleep lately and have had a sharp elevation in mood. Whether we like it or not, we are, to some degree, prisoners of our own chemistry and biology.

The "good drugs" are listed in the last third of this page. It is interesting reading:

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/