63 replies to this topic

[EmbraceUnity]

I am just wondering why I haven't gotten a niacin flush. I have never had one with my normal supplement regimen, but I figured since I am trying the LEF Mix with extra niacin (which was on sale) that I would be getting a flush. What does it mean if I am not getting a flush?

[drmz]

I'm waiting to catch my train so i started reading an article about niacin : Full Article

>>

If you take niacin and DON'T have a flush, it could be that your capillaries are too far gone to be helped, or more likely, you don't have a lot of toxins ready to be removed just then.

So, you should seek the niacin flush. It does a great deal of good for your body -- increasing blood flow, taking nutrients to areas that are starved, and taking AWAY some of those toxins that cause illness, tiredness and disease.


Niacin is a vitamin that has a "getting used to" level. In other words, the first time you take niacin you may have the flush. If you keep taking the same amount each day, you will have the flush, maybe, on the second or third day, but by the fourth day you won't have any flush.

Then is when you should deliberately increase your niacin dose which leads to this article

""
Once you have had the niacin flush with a particular quantity of niacin, usually the next day that same dosage of niacin won't create the same effect, and usually after a few more days you will have none of this sensation -- until you increase the dosage of niacin. When you take niacin to a new, higher level (from 100 mg, for instance, to 200 mg) you can experience the reddening again.
""

Edited by drmz, 10 December 2007 - 06:16 AM.

[brainengineer]

I think the issue is that the LEF formula has extra Niacinamide not extra Nicotinic Acid. I believe the Flush (and also all the heart/cholesterol benefits) only come from Nicotinic Acid.

--
BrainEngineer

[lucid]

A couple of things:

If you take the LEF mix, the dosage is like 12 pills / day (or something like that). So if you take less than that at one time you might not get a flush. You should also check on the dosage, if you are taking >200 mg you should be getting a flush.

Also if you take even a low dose of aspirin before hand, then that will eliminate the flush. (baby aspirins will do the trick)

[EmbraceUnity]

I don't take aspirin of any kind. The dose for the LEF mix is 9 pills. I only take 6 per day, but in any event, it says you should take it throughout the day (I take three in the morning and three at night).

I have a pretty healthy lifestyle, but I highly doubt the reason I am not flushing is because I am toxin-free. Maybe I should try some nicotinic acid. However, I doubt that only nicotinic acid has positive effects.

Furthermore, I don't know what my cholesterol levels are, but considering most people on here with similar lifestyles have very low cholesterol levels, I am guessing that if anything I need to boost my cholesterol levels. So if the type of niacin I am taking now has no cholesterol-lowering effects, but other positive effects, then that might actually be a good thing.

[lucid]

The LEF mix has: 190 mg of Niacin (vitamin B3) (as 53% niacinamide, 38% niacin, and 9% niacinamide ascorbate)
Hence the amount of nictonic acid that you are getting is 72mg which isn't really enough to cause a flush.

Niacin is implicated in enhancement of Sirtuin activation, and increasing of good cholesterol (HDL, which you can't have too much of for practical purposes). There are probably other reported benefits of it was well. I take 500mg a day.

[kenj]

>>> Hence the amount of nictonic acid that you are getting is 72mg which isn't really enough to cause a flush. <<<

I think it varies depending on histamine levels. I can't take LEF mix, and be sane at the same time. ;-)

[niner]

The LEF mix has: 190 mg of Niacin (vitamin B3) (as 53% niacinamide, 38% niacin, and 9% niacinamide ascorbate)
Hence the amount of nictonic acid that you are getting is 72mg which isn't really enough to cause a flush.

Niacin is implicated in enhancement of Sirtuin activation, and increasing of good cholesterol (HDL, which you can't have too much of for practical purposes). There are probably other reported benefits of it was well. I take 500mg a day.

Don't forget that niacinamide is a Sirtuin suppressor, so the LEF mix is sort of an anti-resveratrol.

If you take niacin and DON'T have a flush, it could be that your capillaries are too far gone to be helped, or more likely, you don't have a lot of toxins ready to be removed just then.

So, you should seek the niacin flush. It does a great deal of good for your body -- increasing blood flow, taking nutrients to areas that are starved, and taking AWAY some of those toxins that cause illness, tiredness and disease.

Can you say something about the nature of these toxins? You mean viri, fungi, and bacteria? They cause illness and disease... I really don't think that the niacin flush has anything to do with toxins.

[EmbraceUnity]

The version of the LEF Mix with extra niacin has 862 mg of Niacin (vitamin B3) (as 53% niacinamide, 38% niacin, and 9% niacinamide ascorbate)

that should be enough

[drmz]

Today i tried 100 MG niacin to see if it would give me a flush.
After about 10 mins i felt alot of bloo going to my head which as a bit weird. My whole face was red and warm for about 10 minutes. I did not expected such a reaction from just 100 mg niacin.
So apparently 100 mg is not enough to make me flush over my whole body. I'll take 100 mg for the next 2-3 days and then up the dose to 150 mg to see what happens.

[shuffleup]

Today i tried 100 MG niacin to see if it would give me a flush.
After about 10 mins i felt alot of bloo going to my head which as a bit weird. My whole face was red and warm for about 10 minutes. I did not expected such a reaction from just 100 mg niacin.
So apparently 100 mg is not enough to make me flush over my whole body. I'll take 100 mg for the next 2-3 days and then up the dose to 150 mg to see what happens.

Yep you will build some tolerance. When I take 150 of Immediate Release Niacin I get what you described, plus some flushing on my arms w/ some small bumps. But the first place I always feel it is my head, actually my scalp, then my ears.

[EmbraceUnity]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

Considering how much I am taking, it should be really obvious. Maybe something else I am taking or doing has interfered with the full effect.

[MP11]

I think the issue is that the LEF formula has extra Niacinamide not extra Nicotinic Acid. I believe the Flush (and also all the heart/cholesterol benefits) only come from Nicotinic Acid.

--
BrainEngineer

Yea, according to the article Niacinamide is used instead to avoid a niacin flush.

Also, while the niacin flush seems like it might be worthwhile remember there are also adverse affects such as liver damage, elevated blood sugar and potential birth defects in those pregnant. However, these effects seem to only be present at doses of 1.5g or above.

[drmz]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

Considering how much I am taking, it should be really obvious. Maybe something else I am taking or doing has interfered with the full effect.

I certainly do not like the feeling.Today i tried again 100 mg, same as yesterday, but this time i got a major flush. Very hot face, neck, chest, arms, hands. Really amazing how fast acting this stuff is.

[shuffleup]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

Considering how much I am taking, it should be really obvious. Maybe something else I am taking or doing has interfered with the full effect.

I certainly do not like the feeling.Today i tried again 100 mg, same as yesterday, but this time i got a major flush. Very hot face, neck, chest, arms, hands. Really amazing how fast acting this stuff is.

If you do not like the feeling I would take it with a meal and a large glass of water. A baby aspirin about an hour before helps as well.

[drmz]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

Considering how much I am taking, it should be really obvious. Maybe something else I am taking or doing has interfered with the full effect.

I certainly do not like the feeling.Today i tried again 100 mg, same as yesterday, but this time i got a major flush. Very hot face, neck, chest, arms, hands. Really amazing how fast acting this stuff is.

If you do not like the feeling I would take it with a meal and a large glass of water. A baby aspirin about an hour before helps as well.

Well, i want the flush Although i don't like it.

[maxwatt]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

Considering how much I am taking, it should be really obvious. Maybe something else I am taking or doing has interfered with the full effect.

I certainly do not like the feeling.Today i tried again 100 mg, same as yesterday, but this time i got a major flush. Very hot face, neck, chest, arms, hands. Really amazing how fast acting this stuff is.

If you do not like the feeling I would take it with a meal and a large glass of water. A baby aspirin about an hour before helps as well.

Well, i want the flush Although i don't like it.

The "flush" is caused by histamine release. It can be relieved by an anti-histamine. Those Claratin tabs that dissolve under your tongue act very quickly if you're already itching and tingling. I do not believe the flush has anything to do with other beneficial effects. However, Niacin is known to be a Sirtuin suppressor; many of us avoid it for that reason. There are other ways to improve your lipid profile.

[health_nutty]

The "flush" is caused by histamine release. It can be relieved by an anti-histamine. Those Claratin tabs that dissolve under your tongue act very quickly if you're already itching and tingling. I do not believe the flush has anything to do with other beneficial effects. However, Niacin is known to be a Sirtuin suppressor; many of us avoid it for that reason. There are other ways to improve your lipid profile.

I thought it was only the niacinamide version of the vitamin that inhibited sirt1?

[shuffleup]

The "flush" is caused by histamine release. It can be relieved by an anti-histamine. Those Claratin tabs that dissolve under your tongue act very quickly if you're already itching and tingling. I do not believe the flush has anything to do with other beneficial effects. However, Niacin is known to be a Sirtuin suppressor; many of us avoid it for that reason. There are other ways to improve your lipid profile.

I thought it was only the niacinamide version of the vitamin that inhibited sirt1?

Me too.

[ilanso]

The "flush" is caused by histamine release. It can be relieved by an anti-histamine. Those Claratin tabs that dissolve under your tongue act very quickly if you're already itching and tingling. I do not believe the flush has anything to do with other beneficial effects. However, Niacin is known to be a Sirtuin suppressor; many of us avoid it for that reason. There are other ways to improve your lipid profile.

I thought it was only the niacinamide version of the vitamin that inhibited sirt1?

Me too.

Niacinamide is the bad one. Look at the thread: http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=196981

I am even thinking the flush can be used to our advantage timing it close to the Rsv administration, as the vasodilation may enhance Rsv transport.

[drmz]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

Considering how much I am taking, it should be really obvious. Maybe something else I am taking or doing has interfered with the full effect.

I certainly do not like the feeling.Today i tried again 100 mg, same as yesterday, but this time i got a major flush. Very hot face, neck, chest, arms, hands. Really amazing how fast acting this stuff is.

If you do not like the feeling I would take it with a meal and a large glass of water. A baby aspirin about an hour before helps as well.

Well, i want the flush Although i don't like it.

The "flush" is caused by histamine release. It can be relieved by an anti-histamine. Those Claratin tabs that dissolve under your tongue act very quickly if you're already itching and tingling. I do not believe the flush has anything to do with other beneficial effects. However, Niacin is known to be a Sirtuin suppressor; many of us avoid it for that reason. There are other ways to improve your lipid profile.

I thought it was actually good to have a flush >

The niacin causes these small capilaries to expand - so they might be able to carry 2 or 3 blood cells at the same time. This is a tremendous increase in blood flow.

You experience this as a "flushing" of the skin, simply because there is more blood close to the surface of the body. As the blood flows in these areas, the cells of the small capilaries will also be getting rid of their waste products, and often they produce 'histamine' as part of this process. That histamine is another natural substance produced by every cell in the body when a cell is under attack, or is eliminating toxins. Histamine causes an 'itchy' feeling.

[shuffleup]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

Considering how much I am taking, it should be really obvious. Maybe something else I am taking or doing has interfered with the full effect.

I certainly do not like the feeling.Today i tried again 100 mg, same as yesterday, but this time i got a major flush. Very hot face, neck, chest, arms, hands. Really amazing how fast acting this stuff is.

If you do not like the feeling I would take it with a meal and a large glass of water. A baby aspirin about an hour before helps as well.

Well, i want the flush Although i don't like it.

The "flush" is caused by histamine release. It can be relieved by an anti-histamine. Those Claratin tabs that dissolve under your tongue act very quickly if you're already itching and tingling. I do not believe the flush has anything to do with other beneficial effects. However, Niacin is known to be a Sirtuin suppressor; many of us avoid it for that reason. There are other ways to improve your lipid profile.

I thought it was actually good to have a flush >

The niacin causes these small capilaries to expand - so they might be able to carry 2 or 3 blood cells at the same time. This is a tremendous increase in blood flow.

You experience this as a "flushing" of the skin, simply because there is more blood close to the surface of the body. As the blood flows in these areas, the cells of the small capilaries will also be getting rid of their waste products, and often they produce 'histamine' as part of this process. That histamine is another natural substance produced by every cell in the body when a cell is under attack, or is eliminating toxins. Histamine causes an 'itchy' feeling.

Yep I think the flush is good for you but not necessarily what improves lipid profiles. Example: Good results (in terms of HDL, LDL) are seen with Slo Niacin which is an OTC Extended release niacin - this was used in the HATS trials alongside a statin. Note that this is different than most time-released versions which may stick around too long, and is not considered "flush free" in that it's not bonded to Inositol.

I have been taking a 250mg cap of Slo Niacin at night with a meal, with no flushing. Going to step up to 325 next week then 500 at least. Much above that makes some liver enzyme monitoring prudent.

I can't recall where, but I did see some reference to greater LDL reductions using Slo Niacin type products vs. Immediate Release (IR), but that IR was better for HDL increases. Not sure if that's adequately been researched though.

Still, I take a little IR in the morning as well figure might as well get some benefits of the flush plus my HDL needs all the help it can get.

[krillin]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

I hated it so much that I only tried it once. It felt like my entire scalp was badly sunburned. I threw out the rest of the bottle of 100 mg tabs and switched to inositol hexanicotinate. Some people do seem to like it. Google niacin and orgasm.

[shuffleup]

Hmm now that you mention it I have had a rather pleasant feeling in my scalp region, but it is hard to explain. There was no redness. I had just attributed it to having really nice showers, but maybe this is the reason haha. Does anyone else actually like the feeling?

I hated it so much that I only tried it once. It felt like my entire scalp was badly sunburned. I threw out the rest of the bottle of 100 mg tabs and switched to inositol hexanicotinate. Some people do seem to like it. Google niacin and orgasm.

LOL - if only I had sex with my ears then I could get some extra pleasure from Niacin. For me it doesn't appear to have the flush effects much below the belt.

[lucid]

I hated it so much that I only tried it once. It felt like my entire scalp was badly sunburned. I threw out the rest of the bottle of 100 mg tabs and switched to inositol hexanicotinate. Some people do seem to like it. Google niacin and orgasm.

If you take a baby aspirin (<80mg) 45 minutes before downing your niacin you shouldn't get a flush. I don't know if the long term supplementation of aspirin is open and closed, but to me it seems like low-dose aspirin is a net plus for normal healthy people. Plus you get the benefits of niacin w/o the flush.

[drmz]

Just some studies which i ran into during my search for niacin flush info. As of yet i don't find that much evidence that the flush is actually that promising as i thought first.

For people interested in a good study about niacin and flushing >> READ THIS ARTICLE

Maciejewski-Lenoir D, Richman JG, Hakak Y, Gaidarov I, Behan DP, Connolly DT.
Arena Pharmaceuticals Inc., San Diego, California 92121, USA. dlenoir@arenapharm.com

Nicotinic acid, used for atherosclerosis treatment, has an adverse effect of skin flushing. The flushing mechanism, thought to be caused by the release of prostaglandin D(2) (PGD(2)), is not well understood. We aimed to identify which cells mediate the flushing effect. Nicotinic acid receptor (GPR109A) gene expression was assessed in various tissues and cell lines. Cells expressing GPR109A mRNA were further assayed for PGD(2) release in response to nicotinic acid. Of all samples, only skin was able to release PGD(2) upon stimulation with nicotinic acid. The responsive cells were localized to the epidermis, and immunocytochemical studies revealed the presence of GPR109A on epidermal Langerhans cells. CD34+ cells isolated from human blood and differentiated into Langerhans cells (hLC-L) also showed GPR109A expression. IFNgamma treatment increased both mRNA and plasma membrane expression of GPR109A. IFNgamma-stimulated hLC-Ls released PGD(2) in response to nicotinic acid in a dose-dependant manner (effector concentration for half-maximum response=1.2 mM+/-0.7). Acifran, a structurally distinct GPR109A ligand, also increased PGD(2) release, whereas isonicotinic acid, a nicotinic acid analog with low affinity for GPR109A, had no effect. These results suggest that nicotinic acid mediates its flushing side effect by interacting with GPR109A on skin Langerhans cells, resulting in release of PGD(2).

Nicotinic acid (niacin) is a B vitamin which is also a potent hypolipidemic agent. However, intense flushing occurs following ingestion of pharmacologic doses of niacin which greatly limits its usefulness in treating hyperlipidemias. Previous studies have demonstrated that niacin-induced flushing can be substantially attenuated by pre-treatment with cyclooxygenase inhibitors, suggesting that the vasodilation is mediated by a prostaglandin. However, the prostaglandin that presumably mediates the flush has not been conclusively determined. In this study we report the finding that ingestion of niacin evokes the release of markedly increased quantities of PGD2 in vivo in humans. PGD2 release was assessed by quantification of the PGD2 metabolite, 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2, in plasma by gas chromatography mass spectrometry. Following ingestion of 500 mg of niacin in three normal volunteers, intense flushing occurred and plasma levels of 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2 were found to increase dramatically by 800, 430, and 535-fold. Levels of 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2 reached a maximum between 12 and 45 min. after ingesting niacin and subsequently declined to near normal levels by 2-4 hours. Levels of 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2 in plasma correlated with the intensity and duration of flushing that occurred in the 3 volunteers. Release of PGD2 was not accompanied by a release of histamine which was assessed by quantification of plasma levels of the histamine metabolite, N tau-methylhistamine. This suggests that the origin of the PGD2 release is not the mast cell. Only a modest increase (approximately 2-fold) in the urinary excretion of the prostacyclin metabolite, 2,3-dinor-6-keto-PGF1 alpha, occurred following ingestion of niacin and no increase in the excretion of the major urinary metabolite of PGE2 was found. These results indicate that the major vasodilatory PG released following ingestion of niacin is PGD2. The fact that markedly increased quantities of PGD2 are released suggests that PGD2 is the mediator of niacin-induced vasodilation in humans.

Nicotinic acid is a safe, broad-spectrum lipid agent shown to prevent cardiovascular disease, yet its widespread use is limited by the prostaglandin D(2) (PGD(2)) mediated niacin flush. Previous research suggests that nicotinic acid-induced PGD(2) secretion is mediated by the skin, but the exact cell type remains unclear. We hypothesized that macrophages are a source of nicotinic acid-induced PGD(2) secretion and performed a series of experiments to confirm this. Nicotinic acid (0.1-3mM) induced PGD(2) secretion in cultured human macrophages, but not monocytes or endothelial cells. The PGD(2) secretion was dependent on the concentration of nicotinic acid and the time of exposure. Nicotinuric acid, but not nicotinamide, also induced PGD(2) secretion. Pre-incubation of the cells with aspirin (100muM) entirely prevented the nicotinic acid effects on PGD(2) secretion. The PGD(2) secreting effects of nicotinic acid were additive to the effects of the calcium ionophore A23187 (6muM), but were independent of extra cellular calcium. These findings, combined with recent in vivo work, provide evidence that macrophages play a significant role in mediating the niacin flush and may lead to better strategies to eliminate this limiting side effect.

Edited by drmz, 23 December 2007 - 10:48 AM.

[rabagley]

I hated it so much that I only tried it once. It felt like my entire scalp was badly sunburned. I threw out the rest of the bottle of 100 mg tabs and switched to inositol hexanicotinate. Some people do seem to like it. Google niacin and orgasm.

If you take a baby aspirin (<80mg) 45 minutes before downing your niacin you shouldn't get a flush. I don't know if the long term supplementation of aspirin is open and closed, but to me it seems like low-dose aspirin is a net plus for normal healthy people. Plus you get the benefits of niacin w/o the flush.

I don't mind the flush, but the first one was definitely a suprise (I even knew something called a flush was going to happen, and the specific reaction still suprised me). It's my understanding that the flush is neither positive nor negative. It's just a harmless and potentially annoying side-effect. Having taken niacin for several months now, I treat my now mild flush as a signal that everything is going as expected. If you take the niacin with food or a large glass of whole milk, the flush is much less noticable without any change to the measured AUC.

On the aspirin, the flush will abate to a very low level within about a month, so if you find the flush objectionable, you should only need to take the aspirin over that time frame and then you can stop. Which seems to be a good idea. The idea that aspirin is heart healthy is not supported by the evidence. It was based on a theory that you could prevent some strokes and heart attacks by reducing some clotting factors in the blood. The only problem is that the events that precede the clot formation (plaque rupture) seem to trigger all of the clot formation pathways, so the aspirin does little good. The side effects of long-term aspirin, even the enteric coated, low-dose formulation, are significant (mostly intestinal thinning and intestinal bleeding). At the very least, take regular vacations from aspirin to give your intestines a break.

Significant negative with minimal or no positive == bad idea IMHO.

[rabagley]

Just some studies which i ran into during my search for niacin flush info. As of yet i don't find that much evidence that the flush is actually that promising as i thought first.

For people interested in a good study about niacin and flushing >> READ THIS ARTICLE

I found a moderately informative animation of niacin flushing (and HDL reverse transport of cholesterol) here: Niacin and HDL Animations.

Seems to agree with drmz's paper above. And the narrator's voice is unbelievably sexy

[EmbraceUnity]

I just had my first true niacin flush during my dinner on christmas eve. It was all over my face and my elbows were red. It felt kind of weird. Wonder why I couldn't get them before. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed.

I kind of like when there is something tangible from a supplement, since I know it is actually working beyond brightly colored urine. haha

[drmz]

So there is no such thing as adapting to the niacin, absence of flushing just indicates that the langerhans cells are out of PGD to release ? Which i assume is a bad thing if PGD is needed in a natural way. There is no histamine involved at all in the niacin flush.
Can someone elaborate on the depletion of pgd in the langerhans cells ?