63 replies to this topic

[krillin]

We may not be dogs, but we react similarly to medications and supplements.
Dogs can take human medicines and expect similar results, based on body weight for dosage amount.

To convert dog doses (mg per kg) to human doses, multiply by 0.54.

[krillin]

Quoted from http://www.food.gov....information.pdf

Persiani et al. (2005) show that the
consumption of glucosamine at doeses twice the typical supplemental use (3,000mg) did not significantly increase plasma AUC
glucosamine levels above those achieved using the standard 1,500mg dose. Thus, the possibility of increased glucosamine exposure
above the 90th percentile expected intakes, occurring from individuals who may consume glucosamine under the proposed uses
in conjunction with supplemental use, would not result in a significant increase in internal glucosamine exposures.

Now you can see that even now if it isn't bad for you long-term and not any better taking higher doses, I would now tell people to save their money.

I wonder if the 3000 mg dose resulted in additional absorbed sulfate despite a lack of additional absorbed glucosamine. Sulfate by itself can be helpful. Also, that study used once daily dosing. Spreading out the dose might allow better absorption.

Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 2005 Dec;13(12):1041-9.
Glucosamine oral bioavailability and plasma pharmacokinetics after increasing doses of crystalline glucosamine sulfate in man.
Persiani S, Roda E, Rovati LC, Locatelli M, Giacovelli G, Roda A.
Clinical Pharmacology Department, Rotta Research Laboratorium/Rottapharm, Monza, Italy. stefano.persiani@rotta.com

OBJECTIVE: Pharmacokinetic data on glucosamine are scant, limiting the understanding of glucosamine sulfate mechanism of action in support of its treatment effects in osteoarthritis. This study investigated the oral pharmacokinetics and dose-proportionality of glucosamine after administration of the patented crystalline glucosamine sulfate in man. METHODS: Twelve healthy volunteers received three consecutive once-daily oral administrations of glucosamine sulfate soluble powder at the doses of 750, 1,500, and 3,000 mg, in an open, randomised, cross-over fashion. Glucosamine was determined in plasma collected up to 48 h after the last dose by a validated Liquid Chromatography method with Mass Spectrometry detection. Pharmacokinetic parameters were calculated at steady state. RESULTS: Endogenous plasma levels of glucosamine were detected (10.4-204 ng/ml, with low intra-subject variability). Glucosamine was rapidly absorbed after oral administration and its pharmacokinetics were linear in the dose range 750-1,500 mg, but not at 3,000 mg, where the plasma concentration-time profiles were less than expected based on dose-proportionality. Plasma levels increased over 30-folds from baseline and peaked at about 10 microM with the standard 1,500 mg once-daily dosage. Glucosamine distributed to extravascular compartments and its plasma concentrations were still above baseline up to the last collection time. Glucosamine elimination half-life was only tentatively estimated to average 15 h. CONCLUSIONS: Glucosamine is bioavailable after oral administration of crystalline glucosamine sulfate, persists in circulation, and its pharmacokinetics support once-daily dosage. Steady state peak concentrations at the therapeutic dose of 1,500 mg were in line with those found to be effective in selected in vitro mechanistic studies. This is the only glucosamine formulation for which pharmacokinetic, efficacy and safety data are now available.

PMID: 16168682

[missminni]

We may not be dogs, but we react similarly to medications and supplements.
Dogs can take human medicines and expect similar results, based on body weight for dosage amount.

To convert dog doses (mg per kg) to human doses, multiply by 0.54.

I'm not sure this would apply in the case of glucosamine being that the body uses
what it needs and passes the rest.
There is no harm taking more. The idea is to take enough to effect a change.
Starting with a gram for 33 lbs of body weight is probably enough of a dose to effect a change in someone who is
having arthritic discomfort. My dog was having stiffness in his hip and difficulty climbing stairs when he was taking 1500 mg
of glucosamine a day. As soon as he took 4 grams a day (he is 125 lbs) he was fine.
The same thing was true with my Dad. He was taking 1500 mg a day and getting no relief. He thought it was useless.
As soon as he increased to 6 grams (he is 180) he felt relief. Now my dad had two hip replacements, one of which
never set right, so he has issues of pain that can't be handled with glucosamine alone, but he most definitely noticed
improvement when he took the 6 grams.
For somebody who isn't feeling any joint discomfort or arthritic pain, I would imagine they don't need to take that much.
The 1500 mg that is suggested on the bottle is probably for that person. It's more like a preventative dose.
But for my Dad or someone who's having arthritic issues, when they take the recommended 1500 mg, they think it isn't working.
ETA~I know this is all anecdotal information, and some might say placebo effect, but I cannot imagine the placebo effect
was what it was for my dog. Also, my dad and my friends mom who couldn't even raise her arm to get dishes out of the
cabinet before increasing her dose.

Edited by missminni, 16 December 2007 - 04:09 AM.

[biknut]

I weigh 210 and I take 2 grams a day. That seems to be the least amount that works for me.

[missminni]

I weigh 210 and I take 2 grams a day. That seems to be the least amount that works for me.

What was your degree of pain?
I am thinking that has as much to do with how much it takes to work as does your weight.

[luv2increase]

From my experience with glucosamine, I have found that it takes at least a month for any improvements to be noted. After that time though, all joint pain from high weight/low repetition exercise went away. I have a feeling that you both didn't feel anything immediately, hence the absurd dosages. I am not talking about the 2g though.

[missminni]

From my experience with glucosamine, I have found that it takes at least a month for any improvements to be noted. After that time though, all joint pain from high weight/low repetition exercise went away. I have a feeling that you both didn't feel anything immediately, hence the absurd dosages. I am not talking about the 2g though.

I don't know what both you are talking about, but my father took
glucosamine for 2 years at 1500 mg and felt nothing.
My dog was on it for most of his adult life, and still got stiff hips.
Only when his dosage was increased did the stiff hip clear up.
My friends mom was on 1500 mg for months and couldn't lift her arm to get dishes out of the cabinet until
she upped her dosage.
Sore muscles and joints from exercise are not the same as arthritic joints.
Your "feeling" is unfounded.
BTW
Your use of the word absurd reveals far more about you than the subject at hand.
ETA~You know, it is possible that where I am giving my 125 lb dog 4 grams a day, he might still do
well on 3. I gave him 4 because I was getting no result from the standard 1500 mg dose and the vet
suggested the ratio of 1g to 33 lb as the standard to try and it worked. Maybe he would do just as well
with 3. I don't know. The point is, the amount is not harmful and the cost is within reason, so what's
the big deal?

Edited by missminni, 16 December 2007 - 06:39 AM.

[luv2increase]

From my experience with glucosamine, I have found that it takes at least a month for any improvements to be noted. After that time though, all joint pain from high weight/low repetition exercise went away. I have a feeling that you both didn't feel anything immediately, hence the absurd dosages. I am not talking about the 2g though.

I don't know what both you are talking about, but my father took
glucosamine for 2 years at 1500 mg and felt nothing.
My dog was on it for most of his adult life, and still got stiff hips.
Only when his dosage was increased did the stiff hip clear up.
My friends mom was on 1500 mg for months and couldn't lift her arm to get dishes out of the cabinet until
she upped her dosage.
Sore muscles and joints from exercise are not the same as arthritic joints.
Your "feeling" is unfounded.
BTW
Your use of the word absurd reveals far more about you than the subject at hand.
ETA~You know, it is possible that where I am giving my 125 lb dog 4 grams a day, he might still do
well on 3. I gave him 4 because I was getting no result from the standard 1500 mg dose and the vet
suggested the ratio of 1g to 33 lb as the standard to try and it worked. Maybe he would do just as well
with 3. I don't know. The point is, the amount is not harmful and the cost is within reason, so what's
the big deal?

I figured it out. Genetically, your family can't absorb glucosamine in small quantities. There is something within your genetics that just won't allow it. Keep at the high dosages if it helps. Everyone is different, right?

[missminni]

I figured it out. Genetically, your family can't absorb glucosamine in small quantities. There is something within your genetics that just won't allow it. Keep at the high dosages if it helps. Everyone is different, right?

Perhaps it is something in your family genetics that can't absorb and integrate new information without ego tripping.

Edited by missminni, 16 December 2007 - 07:01 AM.

[luv2increase]

Perhaps it is something in your family genetics that can't absorb and integrate new information without ego tripping.

I was being serious solely coming from a scientific standpoint.

[missminni]

Perhaps it is something in your family genetics that can't absorb and integrate new information without ego tripping.

I was being serious solely coming from a scientific standpoint.

me too

[maxwatt]

Perhaps it is something in your family genetics that can't absorb and integrate new information without ego tripping.

I was being serious solely coming from a scientific standpoint.

me too

Now, children! Stop squabbling!

[missminni]

Perhaps it is something in your family genetics that can't absorb and integrate new information without ego tripping.

I was being serious solely coming from a scientific standpoint.

me too

Now, children! Stop squabbling!

is that what it's called?
I thought it was called the dozens,
unfortunately not at a very skilled level.
sorry y'all

[luv2increase]

Perhaps it is something in your family genetics that can't absorb and integrate new information without ego tripping.

I was being serious solely coming from a scientific standpoint.

me too

Now, children! Stop squabbling!

If you would have paid the slightest of attention to the times of these posts, you would have realized that the so-called 'squabbling' was well over and you wouldn't have looked like a nosy, ignorant instigator.

[biknut]

I weigh 210 and I take 2 grams a day. That seems to be the least amount that works for me.

What was your degree of pain?
I am thinking that has as much to do with how much it takes to work as does your weight.

I'd call it moderate pain in my knees after hard workouts. Normally I don't have any pain just walking around. It's mainly just when I'm in low stances doing kung fu forms training. I also might add I'm 54.

Dried cherries also helps.

[missminni]

I'd call it moderate pain in my knees after hard workouts. Normally I don't have any pain just walking around. It's mainly just when I'm in low stances doing kung fu forms training. I also might add I'm 54.

Dried cherries also helps.

That's interesting. Kind of fits with my theory as to degree of pain...
so that if in fact you had arthritis, you might need more to mitigate the pain.
As of today, I just put my dog on 3 grams instead of 4 to see if he stills does well at that amount,
since I just went form 1500mg to 4 grams without trying anything in between.

mmm, dried cherries, sounds good. I love cherries. my favorite fruit.
I just discovered frozen cherries. they are ridiculously delicious and addictive.

[biknut]

I'd call it moderate pain in my knees after hard workouts. Normally I don't have any pain just walking around. It's mainly just when I'm in low stances doing kung fu forms training. I also might add I'm 54.

Dried cherries also helps.

That's interesting. Kind of fits with my theory as to degree of pain...
so that if in fact you had arthritis, you might need more to mitigate the pain.
As of today, I just put my dog on 3 grams instead of 4 to see if he stills does well at that amount,
since I just went form 1500mg to 4 grams without trying anything in between.

mmm, dried cherries, sounds good. I love cherries. my favorite fruit.
I just discovered frozen cherries. they are ridiculously delicious and addictive.

There are times after especially hard workouts where I could probably do well to take an extra gram, but I try to take the least that I can mainly for economic reasons.

[luv2increase]

I just went form 1500mg to 4 grams without trying anything in between.

Just went? You came across to me as if you've been taking a lot of glucosamine for some time now with no ill-effects. Hmmm...

[missminni]

I just went form 1500mg to 4 grams without trying anything in between.

Just went? You came across to me as if you've been taking a lot of glucosamine for some time now with no ill-effects. Hmmm...

You are so annoying.
"just went" did not mean just as in recently. but just as in didn't try an amount in between.

[missminni]

I'd call it moderate pain in my knees after hard workouts. Normally I don't have any pain just walking around. It's mainly just when I'm in low stances doing kung fu forms training. I also might add I'm 54.

Dried cherries also helps.

That's interesting. Kind of fits with my theory as to degree of pain...
so that if in fact you had arthritis, you might need more to mitigate the pain.
As of today, I just put my dog on 3 grams instead of 4 to see if he stills does well at that amount,
since I just went form 1500mg to 4 grams without trying anything in between.

mmm, dried cherries, sounds good. I love cherries. my favorite fruit.
I just discovered frozen cherries. they are ridiculously delicious and addictive.

There are times after especially hard workouts where I could probably do well to take an extra gram, but I try to take the least that I can mainly for economic reasons.

NOW has 1000mg X 180 caps that I pay about $14 for. It's pretty economical. I really shopped it because I have two
huge dogs that need to take it daily. You might want to check it out.
I get it from Total Health discount vitamins, but I am sure it's available elsewhere at that price.

[biknut]

NOW has 1000mg X 180 caps that I pay about $14 for. It's pretty economical. I really shopped it because I have two
huge dogs that need to take it daily. You might want to check it out.
I get it from Total Health discount vitamins, but I am sure it's available elsewhere at that price.

I'm kind of picky. I only buy Glucosamine that has Chondroitin and MSM. Without MSM it never seems to work as well for me.

[missminni]

NOW has 1000mg X 180 caps that I pay about $14 for. It's pretty economical. I really shopped it because I have two
huge dogs that need to take it daily. You might want to check it out.
I get it from Total Health discount vitamins, but I am sure it's available elsewhere at that price.

I'm kind of picky. I only buy Glucosamine that has Chondroitin and MSM. Without MSM it never seems to work as well for me.

OHh, I used to think the same thing, until I read that Glucosamine Sulfite by itself was just as effective.
Maybe if you try it by itself and take more of it, that would compensate for the Chondroitin and MSM that you are
paying top dollar for.
Have you tried the DMSO yet? topically it is very effective for joint pain and very inexpensive.

[maxwatt]

Perhaps it is something in your family genetics that can't absorb and integrate new information without ego tripping.

I was being serious solely coming from a scientific standpoint.

me too

Now, children! Stop squabbling!

If you would have paid the slightest of attention to the times of these posts, you would have realized that the so-called 'squabbling' was well over and you wouldn't have looked like a nosy, ignorant instigator.

Sure doesn't look like it!

[krillin]

OHh, I used to think the same thing, until I read that Glucosamine Sulfite by itself was just as effective.
Maybe if you try it by itself and take more of it, that would compensate for the Chondroitin and MSM that you are
paying top dollar for.

MSM is cheap and indispensible. I agree that chondroitin can go, since it's barely absorbed.

[missminni]

OHh, I used to think the same thing, until I read that Glucosamine Sulfite by itself was just as effective.
Maybe if you try it by itself and take more of it, that would compensate for the Chondroitin and MSM that you are
paying top dollar for.

MSM is cheap and indispensible. I agree that chondroitin can go, since it's barely absorbed.

and, he could buy the MSM separately and probably do better price wise

[krillin]

and, he could buy the MSM separately and probably do better price wise

Yep, and you can control doses independently. Iherb beats your supplier by a dollar ($13.98 vs $14.99), without factoring in VIP discounts.

[missminni]

and, he could buy the MSM separately and probably do better price wise

Yep, and you can control doses independently. Iherb beats your supplier by a dollar ($13.98 vs $14.99), without factoring in VIP discounts.

that's good to know. I'm down to my last one. I'll check them out.

[missminni]

I just realized that I've been using Glucosamine Hydrochloride, not Sulfate.
Can anyone explain the difference and/or preference for one or the other.
TIA

[luv2increase]

I just realized that I've been using Glucosamine Hydrochloride, not Sulfate.
Can anyone explain the difference and/or preference for one or the other.
TIA

The sulfate version is better. It is the one that most studies have been done on, yet it also is more expensive. All the top brands use the sulfate form of glucosamine. Maybe that may be why you need to take so much missminni? Just a thought.

[missminni]

I just realized that I've been using Glucosamine Hydrochloride, not Sulfate.
Can anyone explain the difference and/or preference for one or the other.
TIA

The sulfate version is better. It is the one that most studies have been done on, yet it also is more expensive. All the top brands use the sulfate form of glucosamine. Maybe that may be why you need to take so much missminni? Just a thought.

WRONG AGAIN
read and learn
there are many more articles that say exactly the same thing.
you didn't think I would take your word for it, did you?

http://www.healinged...re/page172.html
The difference between them and which one should you choose.

There is discussion over which of the two glucosamine salts, hydrochloride or sulfate, is preferred for the treatment of osteoarthritis. The answer is straightforward - both salts, in the pure form, deliver equally effective amounts of the desired glucosamine to joint cartilage. If there is a preference, it should be based on relative purity and economics - not on the specific salt.

Historically, the sulfate was used for the initial European clinical studies because it was made available for that purpose by an Italian pharmaceutical company which had a proprietary position on the sulfate. Thus, it was to their marketing advantage to supply only the sulfate and ignore the hydrochloride.