14 replies to this topic

[basho]

I'm looking for some suggestions on preemptive measures to minimize the negative health impact of frequent aerobic exercise.

After a number of years of gradual increase, I've settled into a routine of 25 - 45 minutes of mildly high-intensity stationary cycling (5 - 10 mins of that is build-up, with the remaining being ~70% max capacity interspersed with occasional fast bursts), 4 - 5 times per week when possible. Ideally I'd like to add in some jogging on the remaining days, although time does not permit that at the moment.

The simple reason is that I really enjoy it (after the regular mental struggle to begin) and also enjoy the general feeling of fitness that carries forward into the rest of the day.

I found this one previous thread covering recovery: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=19394 but I'm not trying to increase my endurance in any one session, just take protective health measures adequate for my current level. I'm already taking fish oil and CoQ-10 along with the usual supps, but have not previously put much thought into what I should be doing about possible oxidation and other issues as a result of aerobic exercise.

[TianZi]

I'm looking for some suggestions on preemptive measures to minimize the negative health impact of frequent aerobic exercise.

After a number of years of gradual increase, I've settled into a routine of 25 - 45 minutes of mildly high-intensity stationary cycling (5 - 10 mins of that is build-up, with the remaining being ~70% max capacity interspersed with occasional fast bursts), 4 - 5 times per week when possible. Ideally I'd like to add in some jogging on the remaining days, although time does not permit that at the moment.

The simple reason is that I really enjoy it (after the regular mental struggle to begin) and also enjoy the general feeling of fitness that carries forward into the rest of the day.

I found this one previous thread covering recovery: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=19394 but I'm not trying to increase my endurance in any one session, just take protective health measures adequate for my current level. I'm already taking fish oil and CoQ-10 along with the usual supps, but have not previously put much thought into what I should be doing about possible oxidation and other issues as a result of aerobic exercise.

I'm not certain what harmful effects you believe may be associated with aerobic exercise. To my knowledge, the only real drawback to these exercises is the stressful impact on joints while performing high impact cardio exercises such as running (but not, e.g., swimming).

As regards jogging / running, this is limited to repetitive stress on cartilage in the joints, tendons and ligaments in the ankles, knees, and hips. Stretching, balance and training of the core & stabilizer muscles is helpful, so I'd recommend a few yoga/pilates/body balance/ etc. classes each week. Take a supplement containing glucosamine and chondritin (and possibly MSM) daily as a preventive measure. Run on a surface with good shock absorption, such as certain outdoors "rubber" tracks or a good treadmill, and avoid running on concrete or uneven surfaces.

Biking and stationary biking for extended periods on a regular basis may pose special concerns for men due to pressure in the crotch area. Consider using a reclining bike instead.

[basho]

I'm not certain what harmful effects you believe may be associated with aerobic exercise. To my knowledge, the only real drawback to these exercises is the stressful impact on joints while performing high impact cardio exercises such as running (but not, e.g., swimming).
...
Biking and stationary biking for extended periods on a regular basis may pose special concerns for men due to pressure in the crotch area. Consider using a reclining bike instead.

I'd read previously that beyond a certain level, aerobic exercise was pro-aging and that was my main concern, although joint protection was one other. I'd never even thought about crotch damage before, so thanks for giving me something else to worry about. I'll have to give that area some focus.

[yoyo]

I don't think 45 minutes a day is going to be a problem. I think it is just endurance work that can be problematic.

[TianZi]

I'm not certain what harmful effects you believe may be associated with aerobic exercise. To my knowledge, the only real drawback to these exercises is the stressful impact on joints while performing high impact cardio exercises such as running (but not, e.g., swimming).
...
Biking and stationary biking for extended periods on a regular basis may pose special concerns for men due to pressure in the crotch area. Consider using a reclining bike instead.

I'd read previously that beyond a certain level, aerobic exercise was pro-aging and that was my main concern, although joint protection was one other. I'd never even thought about crotch damage before, so thanks for giving me something else to worry about. I'll have to give that area some focus.

"I'd read previously that beyond a certain level, aerobic exercise was pro-aging and that was my main concern"

Is this something you read on these boards, or a conclusion reached multiple times in actual scientific studies published by multiple independant teams of researchers widely respected in their field of expertise?

You should be worried about not getting enough cardiovascular exercise. There have been literally thousands of studies showing a significant life-extending effects from cardiovascular exercise, with those benefits increasing as intensity, duration and regularity of sessions increases.

A representative study is "Physical Fitness and All-Cause Mortality" published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1989 (or 1990? if you so desire, you should be able to Google this and find a link to the text of the study, or at least an abstract of the conclusion). This study was conducted over an 8 year period with 13,344 participants.

Participants were separated into 5 groups, ranging from sedentary to high fitness exercisers running 30+ miles per week. (Categories two and three covered people who exercised 30-60 minutes daily 4-5 times per week at low to medium intensity.) Overall death rates were lowest for the most physically fit who ran 30+ miles per week (71% less likely to die from any cause than sedentary persons, and that percentage was much higher as regards chance of death from cardiovascular causes). The results of this study have since been essentially replicated many, many times. This is real data showing real-world results, not some half-cooked fanciful extrapolation by an armchair "expert."

It doesn't sound as though you come close to falling in the category 5 high fitness group, so consider doing more and stop worrying that your cardio workouts are somehow advancing the date of your death--odds are it's doing exactly the opposite. Granted competitive marathon runners are a special group who may face unique health challenges, but you aren't one of those people.

Edited by TianZi, 22 January 2008 - 04:38 AM.

[Shepard]

Yeah, that's not that much aerobic activity. It's certainly not to the level of aerobic addiction or even standard endurance athlete training. I'd just look into prostate pressure from the cycling and ensuring good technique/shoes if you take up jogging.

[zoolander]

Chill basho.

If you pushing yourself with the aerobics exercise at your age (young) using progressive overload (push a little harder each time) you body will adapt and counter the so-called pro-aging. Fair enough over time there will be more mitochondria but you will also see the upregulation of antiox. enzyme systems and antioxidants to deal with the increased load.

the time that you should be worrying about intense aerobic exercise being pro-aging is when you reach advanced age where some of your organ system will start to struggle. When that happens then just back it off.

RE. wear and tear on the joint....as people have already said, look after your shoes and running surface. On a bike...well keep the rpm up high so it doesn't place too much stress on the knee joint. Look for greater than 80rpm. Choose your workload/gear based on this.

[basho]

Excellent, thanks everyone for the replies. TianZi, thanks for the details of the relevant research. And Zoolander, thanks for considering me to be still young even though I'm a couple of years older than you. This means that as long as I am young, so are you.

I've been digging though the forums today and I guess my concerns were shaped by memories of posts like the following (which was later shown to be incorrect):

I believe (through a great deal of reading) that any endurance exercise is pro-aging, such as running or biking for longer than 30 minutes at more than 50-60% of max capacity. And this is made far worse if the activity is not low impact on the joints.

The subsequent replies in that thread are in agreement with everything posted here, especially this detailed reply by bgwowk.

[TianZi]

Chill basho.

If you pushing yourself with the aerobics exercise at your age (young) using progressive overload (push a little harder each time) you body will adapt and counter the so-called pro-aging. Fair enough over time there will be more mitochondria but you will also see the upregulation of antiox. enzyme systems and antioxidants to deal with the increased load.

the time that you should be worrying about intense aerobic exercise being pro-aging is when you reach advanced age where some of your organ system will start to struggle. When that happens then just back it off.

RE. wear and tear on the joint....as people have already said, look after your shoes and running surface. On a bike...well keep the rpm up high so it doesn't place too much stress on the knee joint. Look for greater than 80rpm. Choose your workload/gear based on this.

You mentioned how cardio exercise can lead to the generation of new mitochondria, but you seem to regard this as an essentially negative phenomenon. On the contrary, it should overall have an anti-aging effect.

Your concern may regard the oxidants produced by mitochondria during the energy creation process, and an extrapolation from there that more mitochondria = more oxidants damaging cells throughout the body = a greater rate of aging, if not countered by something else. But the current scientific consensus seems to be exactly the opposite of your worry: we should be concerned about not having enough properly functioning mitochondria, since they are vitally important to the maintenance of human life and we have fewer and fewer that function correctly as we get older.

I've copied the following from the website infoaging.org after a very quick search; it essentially matches my laymen's understanding of the link between mitochondria & aging based on information previously read in many places:

"The assertion that mitochondrial damage and disruption contribute to aging, and to a number of diseases that we associate with growing older, has gained wide acceptance among researchers. While our knowledge of the mechanisms that contribute to age-related mitochondrial damage is by no means complete, a fair amount is known about the generation of renegade oxygen free radicals — the compounds that indiscriminately damage components of the mitochondria. As a result of that understanding, current research on mitochondria and aging has tended to focus on several interrelated areas:

• Minimizing the generation of compounds toxic to mitochondria
• Neutralizing and protecting mitochondria from oxidants that are formed
• Repairing mitochondrial damage once it has occurred

There are a variety of substances in the body that serve to control damage to mitochondria. These include antioxidants, the enzyme SOD (superoxide dismutase), and uncoupling proteins, or UCPs."

It seems from what I've read that currently the concern about the oxidants generated by mitochondria is limited to their effect on the mitochondria themselves, rather than on other cellular structures in the body.

Edited by TianZi, 23 January 2008 - 02:15 PM.

[zoolander]

You mentioned how cardio exercise can lead to the generation of new mitochondria, but you seem to regard this as an essentially negative phenomenon. On the contrary, it should overall have an anti-aging effect.

I can't see where I "seemed to regard" it as negative.

I said

you will also see the upregulation of antiox. enzyme systems and antioxidants to deal with the increased load.

perhaps I should have expanded a bit more on that. I haven't had much time recently and won't for the next year or so.

[zoolander]

Basho, I want to share a few quotes from a paper I recently read that explains the various aspects of this topic well

Below quotes comes from the papare titled "Moderate Exercise is an antioxidant: Upregulation of antioxidant genes by training"

a very important point that I have seen stressed over and over again at recent conferences

"....we came across a generally accepted idea that, because exercise causes an increase in oxygen consumption by mitochondria, it also causes an increase in free radical formation by these organelles. . This, however, is based on the misconception that the proportion of ROS formed by mitochondria is in the range of 2% of the total oxygen consumed. Very early work by the group of Britton Chance revealed that approximately 2% of the oxygen used by the mitochondria is converted to free radicals only when these mitochondria are at a resting state, State 4. However, when mitochondria are in state 3, i.e., actively producing ATP from ADP, with a high electron flow into oxygen, the proportion of oxygen converted to free radicals falls to a tenth of that found in the resting state........."

Point from the above quote....the productin of free radicals from oxygen when exercising is a gross overestimation

".....In response to the free radical assault, the cell has developed a number of antioxidant defense systems such as superoxide dismutase. the peroxidases, the glutathione redox cycle with it's associated constitutive enzymes, as well as glutathione itself........"

One might think that these antioxidant systems evolved as a result of free radical production and to protect the cell from the damage caused by free radicals.

"The basis for this phenomenon may be encompassed by the concept of hormesis, which can be characterised as a particular dose-response relationship in which a low dose of a substance isstimulatory and a high dose is inhibitory. In this context radicals may be seen as benefical, as they act as signals to enhance defenses, rather than as deleterious as they are when cells are exposed to high levels of these radicals"

Hence, exercise is the finger that switches the switch (switch=free radicals) that activate the antixodant systems. This brings forward an arguement. Does antioxidant supplementation remove the need for the adaptive changes that occur during exercise? Think about it. What we are essentially doing with antioxdant supplementation before exercise is removing the switch because the antioxdants will quench the free radicals.

I'll let you guys ponder on that one.

Hope this information helped basho

[TianZi]

Basho, I want to share a few quotes from a paper I recently read that explains the various aspects of this topic well

Below quotes comes from the papare titled "Moderate Exercise is an antioxidant: Upregulation of antioxidant genes by training"

a very important point that I have seen stressed over and over again at recent conferences

"....we came across a generally accepted idea that, because exercise causes an increase in oxygen consumption by mitochondria, it also causes an increase in free radical formation by these organelles. . This, however, is based on the misconception that the proportion of ROS formed by mitochondria is in the range of 2% of the total oxygen consumed. Very early work by the group of Britton Chance revealed that approximately 2% of the oxygen used by the mitochondria is converted to free radicals only when these mitochondria are at a resting state, State 4. However, when mitochondria are in state 3, i.e., actively producing ATP from ADP, with a high electron flow into oxygen, the proportion of oxygen converted to free radicals falls to a tenth of that found in the resting state........."

Point from the above quote....the productin of free radicals from oxygen when exercising is a gross overestimation

".....In response to the free radical assault, the cell has developed a number of antioxidant defense systems such as superoxide dismutase. the peroxidases, the glutathione redox cycle with it's associated constitutive enzymes, as well as glutathione itself........"

One might think that these antioxidant systems evolved as a result of free radical production and to protect the cell from the damage caused by free radicals.

"The basis for this phenomenon may be encompassed by the concept of hormesis, which can be characterised as a particular dose-response relationship in which a low dose of a substance isstimulatory and a high dose is inhibitory. In this context radicals may be seen as benefical, as they act as signals to enhance defenses, rather than as deleterious as they are when cells are exposed to high levels of these radicals"

Hence, exercise is the finger that switches the switch (switch=free radicals) that activate the antixodant systems. This brings forward an arguement. Does antioxidant supplementation remove the need for the adaptive changes that occur during exercise? Think about it. What we are essentially doing with antioxdant supplementation before exercise is removing the switch because the antioxdants will quench the free radicals.

I'll let you guys ponder on that one.

Hope this information helped basho

"Does antioxidant supplementation remove the need for the adaptive changes that occur during exercise?"

Perhaps, but only if your concern is limited to the antioxidant/free radical equation. There are extremely valuable adaptive changes other than increased levels of antioxidants generated by certain forms of exercise.

Dramatically increased HGH generation from high intensity resistance exercises springs to mind, bringing with it the anti-aging benefits of GH supplementation without the risks posed by injections. Resistance exercises can keep senior citizens physically active longer by increasing muscular and tendon strength, and improving/preserving bone density. Resistance exercises of sufficient intensity can increase levels of serotonin, etc. in the body improving mood. Resistance exercise improves basal resting metabolism, leading to decreased body fat and an otherwise greater sense of well-being.

Cardiovascular exercise of sufficient intensity increases the strength of the heart and lungs, and greatly reduces risk of mortality from a cardiovascular adverse event. Recent studies show a reverse in certain neurological markers of aging caused by cardio exercise of sufficient intensity. Extremely intense, "burst"-type cardio training can also increase GH levels (although not to the extent of high intensity resistance training.)

Edited by TianZi, 26 January 2008 - 05:45 AM.

[basho]

Great info guys. Any significant issues with drinking coffee before aerobic exercise, given its effects on the cardiovascular system?

e.g. Acute effect of caffeine on arterial stiffness and aortic pressure

[eldar]

Hence, exercise is the finger that switches the switch (switch=free radicals) that activate the antixodant systems. This brings forward an arguement. Does antioxidant supplementation remove the need for the adaptive changes that occur during exercise? Think about it. What we are essentially doing with antioxdant supplementation before exercise is removing the switch because the antioxdants will quench the free radicals.

I'll let you guys ponder on that one.

Am I to interpret this in a way that I should not consume antioxidants before exercise? I usually eat a big salad about an hour before exercise, which I think would count as same as taking antioxidants. Considering what you said, do you think this is perhaps not a good thing?
Or am I misinterpreting everything you just said.

[icyT]

Frequent exercise (aerobic or otherwise) is going to increase the amount of calories your body is using for energy. This is going to increase your metabolic stress, you will be generating more free radicals. To reduce the risk from this, make sure to get good antioxidants in the diet, both water and fat soluble. A good variety as they will go to different spots and be more ideal for fighting different types. Of most importance is probably vitamin AOs, and vitamin precursors/reactivators for common ones in the cell like glutatione, I think it was C or E that reactivated that, can't recall.