312 replies to this topic

[lucid]

Does it say anything about McCain's track record for keeping us out of strategically disastrous quagmires?

Generally speaking, when one side in a political campaign pays for a video, it's not going to be evenhanded, and may not even be accurate. It's a campaign ad, so what do you expect?

The point of the disclaimer was to go ahead and acknowledge everything that you just said so that you could skip to a response of the actual material. Where as I in no way support McCain, my posting of the video is not intended to support the McCain campaign, instead I am interested to here thoughts on Obama troop surge flip flop.

His quotes were not (I do not think) taken horribly out of context and do represent Obama caught in a contradiction.

Also, I don't really care what anyones position on 'whether a troop surge will work or not' is; It is more so the principle of integrity and transparency.

*Edit* Video for the new page:

*/edit*

Edited by lucid, 23 July 2008 - 05:14 PM.

[Heliotrope]

the ques is: which one is for life extension?

[inawe]

What a choice. McCain is deranged, he wants to maintain a US empire no matter what.
On the other hand Obama is a phoney, he made up his resume.
I think McCain will continue to flush our country down the toilet (even worse than Bush). It's clear to me that we cannot allow McCain
to become president.
McCain kept talking about winning in Iraq. What does it mean to win in Iraq?
McCain still thinks (and says) that Bush did the right thing in attacking Iraq. Which shows he doesn't understand the first thing about
geopolitics. Iran is Shi'a. Iraq is 60% Shi'a but it was ruled by Sunnis under Saddam. These 2 countries were enemies and watching each
other. Neither one was developing nuclear weapons because it new the other will start developing them also. There was a sort of balance in
that area.
Bush attacked Iraq and now the Iraq government is in the hands of Shi'as, very good friends and subservient of Iran.
So again, what does it mean to win in Iraq? To consolidate the control in the hands of friends of Iran?
To distract people from the real important issues Bush, McCain and their gang came up with things like:
FLIPFLOP, SURGE, TAX CUTS, PRO LIFE, MARRIAGE BETWEEN X AND Y ...
Yeah, we fall for all that, we are stupid.

[mike250]

So now he seems to embrace President Bush’s “surge” in Iraq since it is perceived in the West as a success and points toward an American victory.

It appears that Obama is not aware of the “cockroach factor.” You spray one portion of the house with insecticide to get rid of the roaches only to have them scurry to another part of the house. Once that poison disappears, the cockroaches race back. It’s easy to overstate the success of the surge.

His tour of the Middle East amounts to nothing more than a publicity campaign and photo op. In his defense however he has smartly said that he is there to listen not talk. Although I would have liked it differently.

Edited by mike250, 24 July 2008 - 02:02 AM.

[happy]

So now he seems to embrace President Bush’s “surge” in Iraq since it is perceived in the West as a success and points toward an American victory.

It appears that Obama is not aware of the “cockroach factor.” You spray one portion of the house with insecticide to get rid of the roaches only to have them scurry to another part of the house. Once that poison disappears, the cockroaches race back. It’s easy to overstate the success of the surge.

His tour of the Middle East amounts to nothing more than a publicity campaign and photo op. In his defense however he has smartly said that he is there to listen not talk. Although I would have liked it differently.

Sam Stein
Anbar Sheik Cited By McCain Was Assassinated Last Year
July 23, 2008 03:58 PM

The major Sunni sheik who John McCain said was protected by the surge and subsequently helped lead the Anbar Awakening, was actually assassinated by an al-Qaeda led group in midst of the surge.

On Tuesday evening, McCain falsely claimed that the downturn in violence in Iraq's Anbar province was a result of the surge, when in fact the surge began months afterward. Moreover, he said, if it weren't for the work of U.S. forces, the major Sunni figure leading that awakening wouldn't have had the protection he needed.

"Colonel MacFarland was contacted by one of the major Sunni sheiks," said the Senator. "Because of the surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening."

The Arizona Republican's campaign went further the next day, claiming that the major figures that turned around Anbar province would have been killed had the surge policy not been in place. "If Barack Obama had had his way, the Sheiks who started the Awakening would have been murdered at the hands of al Qaeda," said spokesman Tucker Bounds.

Sadly, that murder took place even with the surge underway. In September 2007, Abdul Sattar Abu Risha, the sheik widely credited with persuading Sunni leaders to turn against al Qaeda in Iraq, died in a bomb attack in Anbar. His work, prior to then, was held as a major effort in transforming the province from one of Iraq's deadliest areas into one of its safest.

It was in a September 2006 interview with UPI, when U.S. Army Col. Sean MacFarland first spoke about Sattar's efforts. "Some of the sheikhs have begun to step forward and some of the insurgent groups began to fight against al Qaeda," he said. His reference was Sattar, according to a Reuters article published upon the sheik's death.

Below is more from the Reuters article on Sattar's death:

"When U.S. Army Col. Sean MacFarland, working in his Pentagon office last Thursday, heard that a tribal leader had been killed in Iraq's Anbar province, his first reaction was: "Please don't let it be Sattar."

His fears proved well-founded. A bomb had killed Abdul Sattar Abu Risha, the founder of a movement of Sunni leaders who turned against al Qaeda in Iraq, who are also Sunnis, and transformed Anbar from one of Iraq's deadliest areas into one of its safest.

MacFarland is in a unique position to offer insights into the movement Sattar led and how it may develop without him. As a brigade commander in Iraq, he was present at the alliance's founding and worked closely with Abu Risha for months.

"I owe him a lot," MacFarland said. "He was a young guy with a great vision of the future and he was a fast friend of the United States."


McCain is on a roll!

Edited by happy, 24 July 2008 - 04:40 AM.

[mike250]

So now he seems to embrace President Bush’s “surge” in Iraq since it is perceived in the West as a success and points toward an American victory.

It appears that Obama is not aware of the “cockroach factor.” You spray one portion of the house with insecticide to get rid of the roaches only to have them scurry to another part of the house. Once that poison disappears, the cockroaches race back. It’s easy to overstate the success of the surge.

His tour of the Middle East amounts to nothing more than a publicity campaign and photo op. In his defense however he has smartly said that he is there to listen not talk. Although I would have liked it differently.

Sam Stein
Anbar Sheik Cited By McCain Was Assassinated Last Year
July 23, 2008 03:58 PM

The major Sunni sheik who John McCain said was protected by the surge and subsequently helped lead the Anbar Awakening, was actually assassinated by an al-Qaeda led group in midst of the surge.

On Tuesday evening, McCain falsely claimed that the downturn in violence in Iraq's Anbar province was a result of the surge, when in fact the surge began months afterward. Moreover, he said, if it weren't for the work of U.S. forces, the major Sunni figure leading that awakening wouldn't have had the protection he needed.

"Colonel MacFarland was contacted by one of the major Sunni sheiks," said the Senator. "Because of the surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening."

The Arizona Republican's campaign went further the next day, claiming that the major figures that turned around Anbar province would have been killed had the surge policy not been in place. "If Barack Obama had had his way, the Sheiks who started the Awakening would have been murdered at the hands of al Qaeda," said spokesman Tucker Bounds.

Sadly, that murder took place even with the surge underway. In September 2007, Abdul Sattar Abu Risha, the sheik widely credited with persuading Sunni leaders to turn against al Qaeda in Iraq, died in a bomb attack in Anbar. His work, prior to then, was held as a major effort in transforming the province from one of Iraq's deadliest areas into one of its safest.

It was in a September 2006 interview with UPI, when U.S. Army Col. Sean MacFarland first spoke about Sattar's efforts. "Some of the sheikhs have begun to step forward and some of the insurgent groups began to fight against al Qaeda," he said. His reference was Sattar, according to a Reuters article published upon the sheik's death.

Below is more from the Reuters article on Sattar's death:

"When U.S. Army Col. Sean MacFarland, working in his Pentagon office last Thursday, heard that a tribal leader had been killed in Iraq's Anbar province, his first reaction was: "Please don't let it be Sattar."

His fears proved well-founded. A bomb had killed Abdul Sattar Abu Risha, the founder of a movement of Sunni leaders who turned against al Qaeda in Iraq, who are also Sunnis, and transformed Anbar from one of Iraq's deadliest areas into one of its safest.

MacFarland is in a unique position to offer insights into the movement Sattar led and how it may develop without him. As a brigade commander in Iraq, he was present at the alliance's founding and worked closely with Abu Risha for months.

"I owe him a lot," MacFarland said. "He was a young guy with a great vision of the future and he was a fast friend of the United States."


McCain is on a roll!

as much as John McCain, at least on this side of the world, doesn’t even run a distant second, Obama hasn't impressed much and I fear it will be another wasted opportunity.

Edited by mike250, 24 July 2008 - 07:30 AM.

[happy]

as much as John McCain, at least on this side of the world, doesn’t even run a distant second, Obama hasn't impressed much and I fear it will be another wasted opportunity.

Ha ha "Obama hasn't impressed much"? "On this side of the world?"

From NYTimes Caucus Blog on Obama in Germany today:

It seems that not only Germans are anticipating Barack Obama’s speech in Berlin, but Americans too.

The speech will be streamed live on Mr. Obama’s Web site , starting about 1:30. (Just minutes before the speech started, the campaign also blasted out a text message to his supporters encouraging them to watch the Webcast.)

A live cam on the site shows a Secret Service agent standing by the empty lectern in front of Berlin’s historic Victory Column . And a small odometer at the bottom of the screen shows that more and more viewers are clicking on the site by the second _ more than 17,000 viewers have clicked on, with more than 6,000 keeping it on even though the speech hasn’t started yet. The whole thing seems overloaded with viewers because it keeps freezing up.

You can also catch the speech live on cable TV. And if you look at the TV screen, you’ll see a crowd that is estimated to be swelling to at least 100,000 people waiting to see Mr. Obama.

That’s more than showed up at any setting for Mr. Obama in America during the primaries, topping the 74,000 in Portland, Oregon, and the anticipated 75,000 at the Democratic convention in Denver next month.

Edited by happy, 24 July 2008 - 07:09 PM.

[Heliotrope]

i've heard obama is techno-progressive and hope he helps science and technology along. he seems okay, but not sure about his experience with the world's big issues.

mccain is old but i don't bias him on age since he has good genes and can probably live through 8 years, but i dunno if he's got the energy to be prez. Reagan started having senior moments and Alzheimer's while still as as prez. US president is about the world's most stressful/rigorous/demanding job and a prez may need to survive on only 3-4 hours of sleep/night and pull allnighters when faced with major decisions/crisis, so i worry about an old person sitting there. If he's got a nice VP and others etc etc, then slightly diff situation.

I wouldn't know who to vote. you guys debate and decide on this. Like someone says America faces a hard decision. caught btw a rock and a hard place

Edited by HYP86, 24 July 2008 - 07:49 PM.

[Heliotrope]

America faces a hard decision. caught btw a rock and a hard place , haha i may know who ppl should vote for now, vote the less of the two evils

of course!

see their VP choices. Sure, the stupid on-going wars around the world/senseless Killings/suicides/homicides/genocides/other deaths, medical and health systems , The economy flushing down the toilet, environment, foreign relations, Space Explorations, avoid asteroid hits/not going extinct the way of dinosaurs etc etc are big issues, but the issue most important to me is beating aging/death & help us achieving "immortality."

However, i'm afraid they may not be agreeable with these plans since 77 Million baby-boomers would be a giant population to take care of, drawing on gov resources and no politician would like to see all of them living forever

Edited by HYP86, 24 July 2008 - 07:54 PM.

[Brainbox]

His speech in Berlin was interesting. He would have earned my vote with that. But then again, I would have voted democrat anyway...

The performance of McCain at the German restaurant in the Us was, uhm, funny.

[icyT]

I never got that impression from Putin.

Read this article by Alexander Litvinenko four months before his assassination.

Sorry for the delay in reply. I've read the article, and sorry but Litvenenko has not convinced me. This looks like an obvious attempt to smear Putin through purposeful misinterpretation. This is probably a 'zirbit' and it is not a 'kiss' but rather, it is when you blow air on the skin to make a loud sound that sounds like a fart. It is considered humourous. It is nothing at all like a kiss, and I'm pretty sure if this was live footage with audio rather than a stillshot, no one would believe what Livinenko was saying.

His only reference is "some people who knew Putin say..." WOW impeccible. In reality, we don't know why Putin's bosses made the decision to put him in KGB instead of foreign intel. There could be numerous factors that influence this. Even if Litvinenko did actually find sources who were saying that, they could still have been false rumours. He is being irresponsible as a reporter by writing such a badly unsourced story like this. If he wants to convince people he should include more details. It mentions he found and had videotapes of himself destroyed, but where is the proof? Is it just further heresay?

While stuff like that's certainly no excuse to assassinate someone, it certainly makes it clear to me why people may have been angry with this guy. Not thorough reporting at all.

[Iam Empathy]

Eight months ago, I was a registered Republican, standing in a cold room in Iowa supporting Ron Paul in the Iowa caucuses. For most of my life, I've been a believer in small government and individual liberties, the ideals that, according to what I learned in high school civics, the Republican Party stood for. I voted Libertarian in 2004, simply because I felt that the Libertarian candidate seemed to best voice those ideals at the time.

As I stood in that cold caucus room, I listened to several people stand up and talk about their candidate. For the most part, instead of giving me compelling reasons to vote for that candidate, each stump speaker (aside from the bubbly young woman who spoke about Ron Paul) spent their time not talking up their own candidate, but hurling shovels of specific insults at the people in the Democratic caucus in an adjacent building. I didn't learn much about Mike Huckabee or Mitt Romney or John McCain, but I did hear a lot of talk about the negative character, poor experience, and profound ignorance of the primary Democratic candidates, Obama, Edwards, and Clinton.

Over the next several months, as the campaign season went along, I started actually opening my ears and listening to talk radio a bit. Previously, I would just listen to music in my truck during my commute, but I started tuning into a pair of local talk radio stations, which aired programs by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and the like.

And I was deeply disturbed. Instead of hearing compelling arguments for why John McCain was the right man for the job, I would hear three nonstop hours of insults levied toward Barack Obama, much of it not directly aimed towards him, but intended to serve as character assassination by association. Breathless stories about his pastor, Reverend Wright, and a guest pastor at his church, David Pfleiger. Amazing tales about William Ayers.

Very rarely did I hear a word about policy, and when I did, it was usually just deriding a specific plank of Obama's plan.

After a month of listening to a large daily dose of talk radio, I learned virtually nothing about what John McCain actually planned to do for this country.

What I did hear, though, is a lot of supposedly negative things about Barack Obama, most of which seemed nonsensical and completely frivolous compared to the problems of this nation. The worst, for me, was repeated harpings on the idea that Barack Obama was somehow "bad" because he was a community organizer.

I know what community organizers do. I have friends and family who are involved with social work and community organization. They register people to vote. They get people involved with the political process. They know the real, day-to-day problems of the people in their community like the back of their hand. They help people with their life problems, helping elderly folks keep the lights on and helping groups with a significant problem get organized enough to get the attention of an alderman or city hall. The people on the ground, the "community organizers" and very local politicians, do a ton of good work for the people of this country. And through that process, they gain a deep understanding of the real problems and thoughts of everyday people.

That brings us to last night. Until last night, I was slightly leaning towards Obama, but I hadn't firmly decided who I was voting for. I held out hope that during the Convention, I could get a real grasp on where the Republican Party was.

Last night, Sarah Palin gave a speech that was in theory meant to get people like me excited about the Republican ticket. This was one that should have gotten me back on board and excited about the McCain/Palin platform.

Instead, it sickened me in a very deep and personal way.

I could go through some of the quotes that made my stomach turn, but many others have already done a great analysis of the speech.

All I heard was a long stream of extremely bitter attacks against Barack Obama, none of which go even the slightest step towards solving the problems of this country. When I tuned in, Rudy Giuliani was firing off some attacks, but I expected that - every convention has some room for criticism of the opposition.

But Palin's speech was obviously meant to be the centerpiece, the real statement about the direction of the Republican party.

And I heard absolutely nothing about their plans for the future.

All I heard was a long, long stream of pointless attacks against Barack Obama, the Democratic Party in general, and the media.

No solutions. No real content. No anything.

There was one line at the end that really twisted things for me.

"Al Qaeda terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America ... he's worried that someone won't read them their rights?"

Every single human being has the right to a fair trial and to be treated humanely by their captors. John McCain, of all people, should understand this. He was a prisoner of war.

On the one fundamental issue that his entire campaign is centered around - the character-building experience of his POW stint - he gets it wrong.

America cannot be a shining beacon of light in the world when we condone policies of treating our enemies with the same standards as the Viet Cong treated their enemies.

Every criminal, no matter how heinous their crimes, deserves humane treatment and a fair and expedient trial. Period. That is a fundamental human right.

When you're giving the central speech of your party's convention, to make a joke out of it makes a joke out of me. Not just as a (former) Republican, but as an American.

This morning, I donated $250 to Barack Obama's campaign. Tomorrow, I'm stopping by the voter registration office to change my party affiliation to Democrat. Saturday, I hope to plant an Obama-Biden sign in my front yard.

This lack of respect for your political opponents, this denial of basic human rights to those who oppose us, this complete emptiness of policy - it ends. Right here, right now.

[missminni]

Eight months ago, I was a registered Republican, standing in a cold room in Iowa supporting Ron Paul in the Iowa caucuses. For most of my life, I've been a believer in small government and individual liberties, the ideals that, according to what I learned in high school civics, the Republican Party stood for. I voted Libertarian in 2004, simply because I felt that the Libertarian candidate seemed to best voice those ideals at the time.

As I stood in that cold caucus room, I listened to several people stand up and talk about their candidate. For the most part, instead of giving me compelling reasons to vote for that candidate, each stump speaker (aside from the bubbly young woman who spoke about Ron Paul) spent their time not talking up their own candidate, but hurling shovels of specific insults at the people in the Democratic caucus in an adjacent building. I didn't learn much about Mike Huckabee or Mitt Romney or John McCain, but I did hear a lot of talk about the negative character, poor experience, and profound ignorance of the primary Democratic candidates, Obama, Edwards, and Clinton.

Over the next several months, as the campaign season went along, I started actually opening my ears and listening to talk radio a bit. Previously, I would just listen to music in my truck during my commute, but I started tuning into a pair of local talk radio stations, which aired programs by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and the like.

And I was deeply disturbed. Instead of hearing compelling arguments for why John McCain was the right man for the job, I would hear three nonstop hours of insults levied toward Barack Obama, much of it not directly aimed towards him, but intended to serve as character assassination by association. Breathless stories about his pastor, Reverend Wright, and a guest pastor at his church, David Pfleiger. Amazing tales about William Ayers.

Very rarely did I hear a word about policy, and when I did, it was usually just deriding a specific plank of Obama's plan.

After a month of listening to a large daily dose of talk radio, I learned virtually nothing about what John McCain actually planned to do for this country.

What I did hear, though, is a lot of supposedly negative things about Barack Obama, most of which seemed nonsensical and completely frivolous compared to the problems of this nation. The worst, for me, was repeated harpings on the idea that Barack Obama was somehow "bad" because he was a community organizer.

I know what community organizers do. I have friends and family who are involved with social work and community organization. They register people to vote. They get people involved with the political process. They know the real, day-to-day problems of the people in their community like the back of their hand. They help people with their life problems, helping elderly folks keep the lights on and helping groups with a significant problem get organized enough to get the attention of an alderman or city hall. The people on the ground, the "community organizers" and very local politicians, do a ton of good work for the people of this country. And through that process, they gain a deep understanding of the real problems and thoughts of everyday people.

That brings us to last night. Until last night, I was slightly leaning towards Obama, but I hadn't firmly decided who I was voting for. I held out hope that during the Convention, I could get a real grasp on where the Republican Party was.

Last night, Sarah Palin gave a speech that was in theory meant to get people like me excited about the Republican ticket. This was one that should have gotten me back on board and excited about the McCain/Palin platform.

Instead, it sickened me in a very deep and personal way.

I could go through some of the quotes that made my stomach turn, but many others have already done a great analysis of the speech.

All I heard was a long stream of extremely bitter attacks against Barack Obama, none of which go even the slightest step towards solving the problems of this country. When I tuned in, Rudy Giuliani was firing off some attacks, but I expected that - every convention has some room for criticism of the opposition.

But Palin's speech was obviously meant to be the centerpiece, the real statement about the direction of the Republican party.

And I heard absolutely nothing about their plans for the future.

All I heard was a long, long stream of pointless attacks against Barack Obama, the Democratic Party in general, and the media.

No solutions. No real content. No anything.

There was one line at the end that really twisted things for me.

"Al Qaeda terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America ... he's worried that someone won't read them their rights?"

Every single human being has the right to a fair trial and to be treated humanely by their captors. John McCain, of all people, should understand this. He was a prisoner of war.

On the one fundamental issue that his entire campaign is centered around - the character-building experience of his POW stint - he gets it wrong.

America cannot be a shining beacon of light in the world when we condone policies of treating our enemies with the same standards as the Viet Cong treated their enemies.

Every criminal, no matter how heinous their crimes, deserves humane treatment and a fair and expedient trial. Period. That is a fundamental human right.

When you're giving the central speech of your party's convention, to make a joke out of it makes a joke out of me. Not just as a (former) Republican, but as an American.

This morning, I donated $250 to Barack Obama's campaign. Tomorrow, I'm stopping by the voter registration office to change my party affiliation to Democrat. Saturday, I hope to plant an Obama-Biden sign in my front yard.

This lack of respect for your political opponents, this denial of basic human rights to those who oppose us, this complete emptiness of policy - it ends. Right here, right now.

Great post. Your analysis of their convention was right on point. I just pray there are more Republicans like you. I want to add, not only was Obama a community organizer, he was a civil rights lawyer, a constitutional law professor and served 12 years in elected office.
For a analysis of the erroneous statements made at the Republican convention check out:
The Huffington Post
AP: Attacks, Praise Stretch Truth At GOP Convention
The comments made on this page
and the handwritten note from Sarah Palin on this one.

Edited by missminni, 05 September 2008 - 12:52 PM.