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Resveratrol Chem Tests (purity) update


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#1 Hedgehog

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 08:03 PM


On Friday I put the samples on GC and HPLC. I watched the Vitalprime labs GC analysis for the first 10mins and I didn't see any residue solvents. Total run time is 30mins.

I took pic of the appearance test

http://www.pathway2c...om/resveratrol/

Update:

Relative Strengths Finished

http://www.pathway2c...ve_strength.xls

GC Results (tested for Ethanol, Methanol, Acetone, Dichloromethane), RT = Retention Time

1) All samples potentially had a minor EtOH peak. The retention time wasn't exact but pretty close (RT standard 2.963, samples 2.974-2.988)2) All samples contained a larger peak at 4.28 but my standard didn't contain anything close enought to that RT.

Uniformity Results

Product

% of Label Claim Result

Trans-Max(1)

91.3%

Trans-Max(2)

102.8%

R500

112.7%

Bioforte(1)

103.8%

Bioforte(2)

113.9%

Images of uniformity chromatographs

http://www.pathway2c...rol/Res_PDF.pdf

 

SEM IMAGES Resveratrol.

For high quality images vist http://www.pathway2c...sveratrol/SEM/

Posted Image

Rev 99 50X

Posted Image

Trans-Max 50x

Posted Image

Rev99 100X

Posted Image

Trans-Max 100x

Posted Image

Rev 99 250X

Posted Image

Trans-Max 250X

Posted Image

Rev99 1000X

Posted Image

Trans-Max 1000X


Edited by niner, 08 February 2008 - 03:01 AM.


#2 dachshund

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 08:26 PM

Hedge Hog, Thanks so much for taking the time to look at the various vendors t-res. samples by HPLC! This is highly valuable independent information you have provided to our readership! Was the column retention time the same for each of the high purity samples (i.e., Rev99, Transmax, VitalPrime, MR 98) this should indicate the t-res form, or perhaps you saw a shoulder or separate smaller peak that may be the cis-form. My thought is that if the resveratrol is isolated from a plant source in the trans configuration, there should be little conversion to the cis-form unless exposed to a lot of UV light. The trans form should be the thermodynamically most stable form, so I would not expect to see much cis < 1 %.

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#3 Hedgehog

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 08:40 PM

Hedge Hog, Thanks so much for taking the time to look at the various vendors t-res. samples by HPLC! This is highly valuable independent information you have provided to our readership! Was the column retention time the same for each of the high purity samples (i.e., Rev99, Transmax, VitalPrime, MR 98) this should indicate the t-res form, or perhaps you saw a shoulder or separate smaller peak that may be the cis-form. My thought is that if the resveratrol is isolated from a plant source in the trans configuration, there should be little conversion to the cis-form unless exposed to a lot of UV light. The trans form should be the thermodynamically most stable form, so I would not expect to see much cis < 1 %.


Hi dachshund,

I haven't had a chance to view the HPLC data yet. Probably tomorrow... I can separate Trans-Cis and all other metabolites with good baseline resolution.

you saw a shoulder or separate smaller peak that may be the cis-form.

the Cis-trans resveratrol separates very well. I have left a sample in the lab for the past 2-3 weeks. Evertime I look at it the cis peak gets a little bigger.

I also set up the PDA to detect at 435nm to see if there is any hint of emodin.

For OVI data my fingers are crossed. I'm basically hunting for a needle in a hay stack. Should see a little EtOH based on the some of the published extraction methods.

I'll post my raw data tomorrow morning.

#4 dachshund

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 08:52 PM

Thanks, I look forward to your post tomorrow! In the sample you have left in the lab that shows the cis isomer content increasing, is the powder exposed to the fluoroescent lighting in your lab, i.e., is it in a clear plastic or glass container so it gets full light exposure every day?

I am also looking forward to the Independent Test data from Vital Prime done by Alkemist Labs, the test results were to be sent by email to customers who have purchased product from Vital Prime. It has take quite some time for Vital Prime to get the results back?!

#5 Hedgehog

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 05:10 PM

Will start adding results to the first message in the thread. Still have GC and I might calculate Cis-trans Ratios....

Relative Strengths Finished


#6 sUper GeNius

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 07:03 PM

Will start adding results to the first message in the thread. Still have GC and I might calculate Cis-trans Ratios....

Relative Strengths Finished


Can you tell me the source of "MR" and the other china vendor? PM me if you like.

Thanks!

#7 Hedgehog

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 07:08 PM

Will start adding results to the first message in the thread. Still have GC and I might calculate Cis-trans Ratios....

Relative Strengths Finished


Can you tell me the source of "MR" and the other china vendor? PM me if you like.

Thanks!


MR = Batch 070720 (sample sent from imminst member)

IMO all samples are equal. It is all within error of the balance and instrument. Not much difference between all the vendors. Didn't notice a large GC peak. As you can tell the Biotiva 50% mixture is just about 50% of the weight. Also looks like the manufacturing based on N=1 is pretty good on all samples.

Edited by hedgehog_info, 04 February 2008 - 07:28 PM.


#8 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 08:07 PM

MR = Batch 070720 (sample sent from imminst member)

IMO all samples are equal. It is all within error of the balance and instrument. Not much difference between all the vendors. Didn't notice a large GC peak. As you can tell the Biotiva 50% mixture is just about 50% of the weight. Also looks like the manufacturing based on N=1 is pretty good on all samples.



That sounds great Hedge,

it appears current resveratrol samples are all good.
I believe prices, customer service and marketing really will be making the difference in product selection for now.

This is very good news for most people who read these forum posts.
Thanks again for testing the products.

Anthony

#9 bixbyte

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 05:08 AM

IMO all samples are equal. It is all within error of the balance and instrument. Not much difference between all the vendors. Didn't notice a large GC peak. As you can tell the Biotiva 50% mixture is just about 50% of the weight. Also looks like the manufacturing based on N=1 is pretty good on all samples.



Your tests does not take into consideration microencapsulation or the "MESH"
The Vita Prime is not ground as fine as the other powders available.
So when I PEG and ultrasonicate the others, they dissolve more completely.
If you don't mind RSV that does not fully dissolve into an emulsion / suspension then go for the least expensive.

#10 niner

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 05:38 AM

IMO all samples are equal. It is all within error of the balance and instrument. Not much difference between all the vendors. Didn't notice a large GC peak. As you can tell the Biotiva 50% mixture is just about 50% of the weight. Also looks like the manufacturing based on N=1 is pretty good on all samples.


Your tests does not take into consideration microencapsulation or the "MESH"
The Vita Prime is not ground as fine as the other powders available.
So when I PEG and ultrasonicate the others, they dissolve more completely.
If you don't mind RSV that does not fully dissolve into an emulsion / suspension then go for the least expensive.

Good point, Bix. The particle size is important, unless you dissolve the resveratrol, like in the ethanol/(PEG or lecithin in water) scheme than a lot of us use. I think that the upshot of hedgehog's analyses is that the purity of high quality resveratrol is no longer in question, as long as everyone keeps up the QC.

The next frontier is going to be advanced formulation for improved bioavailability. Biotivia has their mystery stuff, Anthony's working on something... The future looks bright.

#11 Hedgehog

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 06:04 AM

IMO all samples are equal. It is all within error of the balance and instrument. Not much difference between all the vendors. Didn't notice a large GC peak. As you can tell the Biotiva 50% mixture is just about 50% of the weight. Also looks like the manufacturing based on N=1 is pretty good on all samples.



Your tests does not take into consideration microencapsulation or the "MESH"
The Vita Prime is not ground as fine as the other powders available.
So when I PEG and ultrasonicate the others, they dissolve more completely.
If you don't mind RSV that does not fully dissolve into an emulsion / suspension then go for the least expensive.



I'll look at Rev99 or MR vs VitalPrime under a SEM. I will post images some time this week. This way you can see the powder at crystal level.

#12 zoolander

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 06:28 AM

I have nothing against the work that hedgehog is doing but you can hardly call a member here measuring the relative strengths on various compounds an independent tester. You cannot be sure that hedgehog info doesn't have a vested interested in one of the companies that he/she is testing.

A while back I was going to test the purity of some piracetam I bought from a suspected dodgy vendor using HPLC. I had planned to publish the results here but decided against it. Running an independent test does not involve the company wanting the test done. That's why it's called an independent test. The company simply sends the compound to a reliable independent analytical chemist who doesn't have a vested interest in the company sending the compound.

So what is your motivation Hedgehog? You would have spent a fair bit of time and money to conduct these tests. What is your full name and who do you work for? How many years experience do you have you have as an analytical chemist?

#13 niner

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 06:38 AM

I have nothing against the work that hedgehog is doing but you can hardly call a member here measuring the relative strengths on various compounds an independent tester. You cannot be sure that hedgehog info doesn't have a vested interested in one of the companies that he/she is testing.

If hedgehog was trying to make someone look good, it seems like the results would have been different. The results came out with everyone looking good. I suppose if one of the companies was selling talcum powder, they could have put hedgehog up to running the tests and lying about only theirs, but then they would have had him lie about the purity of the others, saying they were worse than they really were. So on the basis of the results, it looks legit.

He clearly has access to a lab, and a pretty sophisticated one at that. I don't think it's costing him anything beyond his time, because he's running the samples himself.

#14 Hedgehog

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 06:50 AM

I have nothing against the work that hedgehog is doing but you can hardly call a member here measuring the relative strengths on various compounds an independent tester. You cannot be sure that hedgehog info doesn't have a vested interested in one of the companies that he/she is testing.

A while back I was going to test the purity of some piracetam I bought from a suspected dodgy vendor using HPLC. I had planned to publish the results here but decided against it. Running an independent test does not involve the company wanting the test done. That's why it's called an independent test. The company simply sends the compound to a reliable independent analytical chemist who doesn't have a vested interest in the company sending the compound.

So what is your motivation Hedgehog? You would have spent a fair bit of time and money to conduct these tests. What is your full name and who do you work for? How many years experience do you have you have as an analytical chemist?


I'm not charging or trying to make any lab look better than the other. Every sample I tested matched up to their respected CoA. I didn't test these samples to make a CoA either. I'm a new user to Resveratrol and see that Herbal stuff can be sketchy sometimes. Why not have users send me samples to test. Hey even some vendors (Biotiva) sent me a free sample. I'm also not trying to show myself as an independent lab.

Re Motivation: Simply trying to see the quality of products.

I have my own HPLC and I can use it as I please. HPLC is not expesive to run (1L ACN + 0.77g Ammoniumn acetate + Millipore H20)

Regards,

#15 niner

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 07:06 AM

I have nothing against the work that hedgehog is doing but you can hardly call a member here measuring the relative strengths on various compounds an independent tester.


I'm not charging or trying to make any lab look better than the other. ... Why not have users send me samples to test. Hey even some vendors (Biotiva) sent me a free sample. I'm also not trying to show myself as an independent lab.

Re Motivation: Simply trying to see the quality of products.

I have my own HPLC and I can use it as I please.

In the case of a free sample from a vendor, they could send something that they knew was good. If you bought it anonymously or got it from someone who did, then it would be a better example of what people could actually buy from them.

Edited by Michael, 21 July 2009 - 10:41 AM.
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#16 zoolander

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 09:47 AM

what method are you using? Has this method been validated by other labs?

What do you mean you have your own HPLC? and GC

#17 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 01:32 PM

I'll look at Rev99 or MR vs VitalPrime under a SEM. I will post images some time this week. This way you can see the powder at crystal level.

Now that will be interesting indeed!
A

Edited by Michael, 21 July 2009 - 10:41 AM.
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#18 maxwatt

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 07:19 PM

So every sample tested was what it was purported to be.

Next I'd like to see test of blood levels with different methods of administration:capsule of 50%, 98 or 99% powder, powder mixed with lecithin-in-water, powder dissolved in alcohol then added to lecithin-in-water, micronized powder in capsule (probably Biotivia's secret formulation) and lastly, mixed in milk so as to be bound to milk protein. This last is particularly interesting to me for at-home use. If milk protein (and whey) act as a surfactant and delivery mechanism, it would be good news.

#19 edward

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 09:09 PM

what method are you using? Has this method been validated by other labs?

What do you mean you have your own HPLC? and GC


Hedgehog works for a lab and has done work on the hedgehog pathway http://en.wikipedia....gnaling_pathway Take a look at his profile and the sites referenced along with a site he has on hedgehog and other subjects. You can deduce for yourself who he works for. I can personally vouch for him (for what that is worth as I am semi-anonymous myself). BTW full disclosure is for most people not advisable because of their professional commitments licenses etc., as much of the information talked about on this site is very controversial and falls in legal "grey areas"

He works in a lab an thus has free access to the equipment he has used. Many companies allow their staff to use a percentage of their time to pursue research that is of interest to them that may not be directly related to the companies product line so as to generate new ideas and areas to go into.

#20 edward

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 09:29 PM

Hedgehog,

What did your Vital Prime sample look like? Was it less fine, off white, a little cakey etc. like the picture I posted (yes crappy picture but you get the idea)? I ask because I hope the sample they sent you was actually a sample of the product they are selling and not something that as Niner mentioned may be something they know is good. Although I am optimistic about their product, price etc. and am currently taking it with no negative effects. I still want to know that what I am ingesting is free from anything that would adversely affect my health.

#21 bixbyte

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 10:02 PM

Hedgehog,

What did your Vital Prime sample look like? Was it less fine, off white, a little cakey etc. like the picture I posted (yes crappy picture but you get the idea)? I ask because I hope the sample they sent you was actually a sample of the product they are selling and not something that as Niner mentioned may be something they know is good. Although I am optimistic about their product, price etc. and am currently taking it with no negative effects. I still want to know that what I am ingesting is free from anything that would adversely affect my health.


Edward,
Besides Vital Prime's RES Have you tried any other vendor's 98 or 99% Resveratrol?
Thanx, Bix

#22 edward

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:06 PM

Edward,
Besides Vital Prime's RES Have you tried any other vendor's 98 or 99% Resveratrol?
Thanx, Bix


Yes, as I have mentioned in multiple posts before vital prime I was ordering from Mega Resveratrol. I have ordered 98% and 99%.

Edited by Michael, 21 July 2009 - 10:43 AM.
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#23 Hedgehog

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 01:10 AM

Hedgehog,

What did your Vital Prime sample look like? Was it less fine, off white, a little cakey etc. like the picture I posted (yes crappy picture but you get the idea)? I ask because I hope the sample they sent you was actually a sample of the product they are selling and not something that as Niner mentioned may be something they know is good. Although I am optimistic about their product, price etc. and am currently taking it with no negative effects. I still want to know that what I am ingesting is free from anything that would adversely affect my health.


Yes it was like the picture you posted.

Posted Image
from left to right
Rev99, Bioforte, Trans-Max, VitalPrime (VP), Mega, Rev98, China Vendor

So here is what I think about the color. My guess is that the VP is from an extracted source (plant) but it wasn't purified well enough to get the color out. It sorta looks like a very diluted version of bioforte. At least it did when I was mixing it. There is probably some impurity that causes this color but it is in such small amount it doesn't effect its purity/strength. Its like mixing a very small amount of yellow paint with white paint. You can still see it but there is simply not very much of it. A little color goes a long ways with white.

It could also be that the when this was bought by VP they got a good deal because the appearance was off-spec. Also maybe the vendor did a clarity test which was supposed to be clear and by my results it is not clear so that is another way for somebody to get a good deal on a product that failed spec but passed purity of Resveratrol.

Hope this helps.

Edited by hedgehog_info, 06 February 2008 - 01:53 AM.


#24 Hedgehog

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 01:18 AM

So every sample tested was what it was purported to be.

Next I'd like to see test of blood levels with different methods of administration:capsule of 50%, 98 or 99% powder, powder mixed with lecithin-in-water, powder dissolved in alcohol then added to lecithin-in-water, micronized powder in capsule (probably Biotivia's secret formulation) and lastly, mixed in milk so as to be bound to milk protein. This last is particularly interesting to me for at-home use. If milk protein (and whey) act as a surfactant and delivery mechanism, it would be good news.


It seems that way. Only Trans-Max, Bioforte, Rev99, and the china vendor came in original sealed containers.
VitalPrime, MR, Rev98, Rev99, Bioforte samples given by imminist member. I also got a Trans-max sample from a imminst member but James sent me 30pills to test.

With regard to all those tests. If you want to send blood samples I might do it. Hopefully in two weeks time I will be able to test my formulation again... So if you can send me samples in two weeks it would be perfect so I can compare one of my formulations vs one of those you posted :)

#25 bixbyte

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 01:35 AM

Posted Image
from left to right
Rev99, Bioforte, Trans-Max, VitalPrime, Mega, Rev98, China Vendor


HedgeHog,

The Bioforte is black
The Vital Prime is yellow
and the rest are clear

Can you explain the differences in color?


Thank You,
Bix

__________________________________________________

You answered my question by editing your previous post.


Thanx

Edited by bixbyte, 06 February 2008 - 03:01 AM.


#26 Hedgehog

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 05:54 AM

Hedgehog works for a lab and has done work on the hedgehog pathway http://en.wikipedia....gnaling_pathway Take a look at his profile and the sites referenced along with a site he has on hedgehog and other subjects. You can deduce for yourself who he works for.


Heck I'll even tell you my handle for wikipdeida. "cyclopamine" Cyclopamine has a very interesting history.

It actually can cause cyclops in baby animals when the mother ate a certain plant. This pathway is in harmony with the Adult Stem Cell and cancer theory. IMO this is going to help A LOT of people. Genentech is/has just started phase II with a nanomolar Hh antagonist. I wish this program the best luck in helping people with the worst types of cancers.

here are some diagrams I created.

Increase Hh Pathway Activation Posted Imageleads to

Posted ImageSnail protein expression Posted Image E-cadherin & Tight Junctions




Increase Hh Pathway Activation Posted Imageleads to

Posted ImageAngiogenic Factors,

Cyclins, anti-apoptotic genes

Posted Imageapoptotic genes

#27 docmaas

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 08:20 AM

I'll look at Rev99 or MR vs VitalPrime under a SEM. I will post images some time this week. This way you can see the powder at crystal level.

In view of the fact that Biotivia advertises greater bioavailability but their label reflects no additional material it may be that they are also grinding finer. Can you check their particle size as well?

thanks,

Mike

Edited by Michael, 21 July 2009 - 10:44 AM.
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#28 bixbyte

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 05:58 PM

Dear Hh,

Since the Biotivia RES is black on GC can you read the HPLC signatures and their probable compounds that they add to their formula?

Thanx,

Bix

#29 inawe

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 09:15 PM

Hh,
This is my contribution to the piling up of questions on you. It seems you are an expert on Hh signaling pathways. On the other hand, you are devoting a lot of time an effort to analyzing RSV. Do you think there is any relationship between Hh and RSV/Sirtuins?
Thanks

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#30 Hedgehog

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 01:18 AM

Hh,
This is my contribution to the piling up of questions on you. It seems you are an expert on Hh signaling pathways. On the other hand, you are devoting a lot of time an effort to analyzing RSV. Do you think there is any relationship between Hh and RSV/Sirtuins?
Thanks


I'm simply characterizing Resveratrol in hopes to make a better formulation.

With regards to the Hh pathway, maybe there is a connection between INK4, TGF-B, resveratrol and Shh?




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