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Dropping resveratrol


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#1 health_nutty

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 05:14 PM


I'm going to stop taking resveratrol because of cost, bioavailability issues, and lack of research. I'm convinced I would have to take huge amounts to overcome the bioavailability issue (we require 6x the equivalent rat amount). Taking with other polyphenols to enhance the bioavailabilty seems to be a crapshoot. To get the necessary quantity, I would need to switch to a purer extract (even more $$$) to avoid the emodin issue. To top it all off we haven't seen that it extends the lifespan of a rat on a normal diet. The only study showed that it allowed the high fat diet rats to live as long as the normal diet rats.

Instead, I've started doing every third day CR (50% of calories every 3 days).

Edited by health_nutty, 12 February 2008 - 05:49 PM.


#2 Mind

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 05:51 PM

The price has come down, but regular resv supplementation is still out of my income bracket. I would like to try it but I figure my orthocore, fish oil, and protein supps are enough for now.

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#3 mikeinnaples

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:03 PM

Did you sit in on the Sirtris call today?

#4 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:07 PM

Did you sit in on the Sirtris call today?


Did you?

#5 bixbyte

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:08 PM

I'm going to stop taking resveratrol because of cost, bioavailability issues, and lack of research. I'm convinced I would have to take huge amounts to overcome the bioavailability issue (we require 6x the equivalent rat amount). Taking with other polyphenols to enhance the bioavailabilty seems to be a crapshoot. To get the necessary quantity, I would need to switch to a purer extract (even more $$$) to avoid the emodin issue. To top it all off we haven't seen that it extends the lifespan of a rat on a normal diet. The only study showed that it allowed the high fat diet rats to live as long as the normal diet rats.

Instead, I've started doing every third day CR (50% of calories every 3 days).


I don't blame you, stop Res and practice CR.
Problem is I have a couple pounds of Res.


See slide 16 of the SIRT Conference Call Today.
SRT501 is not the same exact formula says it is Reformulated SRT 501 is 5X greater exposure as compared to Resveratrol?


link for CC:

http://phx.corporate...eventID=1752469

see if the CC and slides are still available (see slide 16)


Also if you listen to the Conference Call

He said that SRT-501 is "micronized" resveratrol

Edited by bixbyte, 12 February 2008 - 09:51 PM.


#6 mikeinnaples

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:12 PM

Did you sit in on the Sirtris call today?


Did you?



Yeah I did. From sitting in on the actual call, it seemed to me that SRT501 was micronized resveratrol mixed with something like what we are seeing people on the boards here use. This is what they are claiming is increasing the bioavailability 5x.

#7 health_nutty

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:13 PM

Did you sit in on the Sirtris call today?


No.

#8 mikeinnaples

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:13 PM

As far as clinical results and safety ...I think the results are there without a doubt.

#9 mikeinnaples

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:14 PM

health_nutty ....go to their web site and listen to the webcast from the call today before dropping resv. Then make your decision.

#10 health_nutty

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:17 PM

As far as clinical results and safety ...I think the results are there without a doubt.


It seems very safe (otherwise I wouldn't have started taking it in the first place). The clinical results do show benefit. But for me to justify the price, resveratrol will have to extend life in humans. What clinical studies are you refering to?

#11 missminni

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:18 PM

I'm going to stop taking resveratrol because of cost, bioavailability issues, and lack of research. I'm convinced I would have to take huge amounts to overcome the bioavailability issue (we require 6x the equivalent rat amount). Taking with other polyphenols to enhance the bioavailabilty seems to be a crapshoot. To get the necessary quantity, I would need to switch to a purer extract (even more $$$) to avoid the emodin issue. To top it all off we haven't seen that it extends the lifespan of a rat on a normal diet. The only study showed that it allowed the high fat diet rats to live as long as the normal diet rats.

Instead, I've started doing every third day CR (50% of calories every 3 days).


It's expensive, but I think, from my own experience, it is very effective, regardless of the
bio-availability issue. At 1.5 to 2 grams a day, I've had excellent results with the alleviation of Mortons nueroma (that was years of pain I no longer have), reduction of knee elbow pain, and disappearance of spider veins.
My dogs ear infection has diminished considerably and continues to get better since I increased his dose, Although I am using huge doses to get that affect, my other choice is Baytril in mega doses, which is just as expensive. When you say we require 6x the equiv. of the rat amount...do you mean 6x as much resveratrol per kg of body weight? Also, have you considered getting the Vitalprime Res. It was
only 63cents a gram, and tested as good as any of the others according to hedgehog.




#12 health_nutty

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:20 PM

health_nutty ....go to their web site and listen to the webcast from the call today before dropping resv. Then make your decision.


I don't have the ability to listen in here at work, what was so compelling about the call?

#13 health_nutty

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:27 PM

It's expensive, but I think, from my own experience, it is very effective, regardless of the
bio-availability issue. At 1.5 to 2 grams a day, I've had excellent results with the alleviation of Mortons nueroma (that was years of pain I no longer have), reduction of knee elbow pain, and disappearance of spider veins.
My dogs ear infection has diminished considerably and continues to get better since I increased his dose, Although I am using huge doses to get that affect, my other choice is Baytril in mega doses, which is just as expensive. When you say we require 6x the equiv. of the rat amount...do you mean 6x as much resveratrol per kg of body weight? Also, have you considered getting the Vitalprime Res. It was
only 63cents a gram, and tested as good as any of the others according to hedgehog.


Agreed, at 1.5 to 2 grams per day res does have seem to have very positive effects (especially good anti-inflammatory). I'm very happy it is working for you, your dad, and your dog. I don't have such issues and I don't see any evidence that it extends lifespan in higher forms of life. I just can't justify the cost even of the 600-800mg a day I was taking. The vital prime is cheaper, I'm just wary of a new company that has ridiculously lower prices compared to everyone else. When everyone's price is that low or lower and new evidence presents itself I may jump on the bandwagon again.

And yes, by 6x I mean 6x of res per kg.

#14 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:30 PM

Might start giving it to my tropical fish. Those things are expensive!

#15 stephen_b

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:36 PM

Might start giving it to my tropical fish. Those things are expensive!

You should try astaxanthin supplementation. It really brings out the colors in tropical fish.

healthnutty, at 31 years of age and in excellent health, I don't think waiting a few more years is necessarily a bad idea.

Stephen

#16 missminni

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:51 PM

And yes, by 6x I mean 6x of res per kg.


how many g per kg did they give the rats?
also, I agree at your age resveratrol is unnecessary. I didn't know you were only 31.


#17 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:57 PM

And yes, by 6x I mean 6x of res per kg.


how many g per kg did they give the rats?
also, I agree at your age resveratrol is unnecessary. I didn't know you were only 31.


Have to disagree. Age 31 might be prime time to start. The rubber band stretches further when you stretch the middle rather than the ends.

#18 health_nutty

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 07:06 PM

And yes, by 6x I mean 6x of res per kg.


how many g per kg did they give the rats?
also, I agree at your age resveratrol is unnecessary. I didn't know you were only 31.


It varied from 5mg/kg to 200mg/kg. For me 5mg/kg is about 3.5g per day (x 6 = 21g) per day. We used to think the scaling
factor was 1/6, but from comparing human to rat studies we see it is 6x.

#19 edward

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 07:15 PM

I'm surprised healthnutty, I thought you were one of the "faithful", I think we need to reconvert you. Seriously though as far as the cost is concerned I agree with you that it is expensive, but on that front, order some from Vital Prime, it tested out as 99%? Its cheap, yes its "rough" not very fine, but dissolving it in oil or what have you, should eliminate most of the problems IMHO. Its a lot cheaper then the BAC you have been using (and anything 99% no matter how rough will absorb better than a 50% extract with a bunch of plant matter). Personally I have been amazed at your dosage of the BAC 50%. Over 400 mg (200 mg of t-res) from 50% has me running to the bathroom all day long.

If I were you I would consider maybe just keeping your dose stable until more research comes out wrt bioavailability and such. There seem to be benefits even at small doses. I personally have had, and I think you have mentioned to, increases in your endurance because of T-Res. That has to be a good thing as it points to positive effects on the cardiovascular system, disease of which is the number one killer of people in developed countries.

Edited by edward, 12 February 2008 - 07:18 PM.


#20 drmz

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 07:16 PM

I'm going to stop taking resveratrol because of cost, bioavailability issues, and lack of research. I'm convinced I would have to take huge amounts to overcome the bioavailability issue (we require 6x the equivalent rat amount). Taking with other polyphenols to enhance the bioavailabilty seems to be a crapshoot. To get the necessary quantity, I would need to switch to a purer extract (even more $$$) to avoid the emodin issue. To top it all off we haven't seen that it extends the lifespan of a rat on a normal diet. The only study showed that it allowed the high fat diet rats to live as long as the normal diet rats.

Instead, I've started doing every third day CR (50% of calories every 3 days).



I stopped because of the same reasons. Instead i use my money for buying quality food. Maybe i will start using it when more independent in vivo research comes out.

#21 luminous

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 01:10 AM

I've been listening to the webcast. Sounds like the speaker is saying that taking resveratrol alone is almost futile because you can't get enough and because it's not bioavailable enough. I know he's pushing "SRT501", but do any of his claims about alleged ineffectiveness of run-of-the-mill resveratrol have merit?

#22 bixbyte

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 01:27 AM

I've been listening to the webcast. Sounds like the speaker is saying that taking resveratrol alone is almost futile because you can't get enough and because it's not bioavailable enough. I know he's pushing "SRT501", but do any of his claims about alleged ineffectiveness of run-of-the-mill resveratrol have merit?


I listened and read the entire presentation more than once and took some fast notes.

This is paraphrased since I am not a steno.

He said 501 is just micronized resveratrol.
That they gave it to the test subjects in a liquid as well as powder form depending on the dosage.
501 is not a very good molecule. They have better ones.
501 synergizes very well with metformin.

sounds like to me,
Apparently they are doing an about face on 501 and now saying that since doing further R&D they have other better class Sirtuins they identify as NCEs that have not been tested yet and are the future direction for Sirtris.

#23 luminous

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 01:40 AM

I've been listening to the webcast. Sounds like the speaker is saying that taking resveratrol alone is almost futile because you can't get enough and because it's not bioavailable enough. I know he's pushing "SRT501", but do any of his claims about alleged ineffectiveness of run-of-the-mill resveratrol have merit?


I listened and read the entire presentation more than once and took some fast notes.

This is paraphrased since I am not a steno.

He said 501 is just micronized resveratrol.
That they gave it to the test subjects in a liquid as well as powder form depending on the dosage.
501 is not a very good molecule. They have better ones.
501 synergizes very well with metformin.

sounds like to me,
Apparently they are doing an about face on 501 and now saying that since doing further R&D they have other better class Sirtuins they identify as NCEs that have not been tested yet and are the future direction for Sirtris.

Thanks bixbyte. Hmmm...I don't know whether my resveratrol is micronized or not.

And still I wonder if there is any truth to the claim that you just can't get enough or that it's just not bio-available enough in humans. If only I were a rat. Or better yet, yeast.

#24 edward

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 02:08 AM

Sounds like they are trying to distinguish themselves from and distance themselves from plain old high dose resveratrol. Which makes perfect business sense. Who wants to buy an expensive product when you could get the same effects with a generic solution... unless insurance was paying

I am erring on the side of not believing them 100% as I am sure that a good part of what they are saying is serving a marketing agenda.

#25 missminni

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 02:21 AM

Sounds like they are trying to distinguish themselves from and distance themselves from plain old high dose resveratrol. Which makes perfect business sense. Who wants to buy an expensive product when you could get the same effects with a generic solution... unless insurance was paying

I am erring on the side of not believing them 100% as I am sure that a good part of what they are saying is serving a marketing agenda.

That's exactly what I thought.

#26 niner

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 03:39 AM

And yes, by 6x I mean 6x of res per kg.

how many g per kg did they give the rats?
also, I agree at your age resveratrol is unnecessary. I didn't know you were only 31.

It varied from 5mg/kg to 200mg/kg. For me 5mg/kg is about 3.5g per day (x 6 = 21g) per day. We used to think the scaling factor was 1/6, but from comparing human to rat studies we see it is 6x.

Whoa! You weigh 1540 lbs? health_nutty, I think the CR is a good choice. Or you might have slipped a decimal point...

#27 Hedgehog

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 03:44 AM

He said 501 is just micronized resveratrol.
That they gave it to the test subjects in a liquid as well as powder form depending on the dosage.
501 is not a very good molecule. They have better ones.
501 synergizes very well with metformin.


He also stated it is combined with stabilizing excipients :~

#28 niner

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:04 AM

I've been listening to the webcast. Sounds like the speaker is saying that taking resveratrol alone is almost futile because you can't get enough and because it's not bioavailable enough. I know he's pushing "SRT501", but do any of his claims about alleged ineffectiveness of run-of-the-mill resveratrol have merit?


I listened and read the entire presentation more than once and took some fast notes.

This is paraphrased since I am not a steno.

He said 501 is just micronized resveratrol.
That they gave it to the test subjects in a liquid as well as powder form depending on the dosage.
501 is not a very good molecule. They have better ones.
501 synergizes very well with metformin.

sounds like to me,
Apparently they are doing an about face on 501 and now saying that since doing further R&D they have other better class Sirtuins they identify as NCEs that have not been tested yet and are the future direction for Sirtris.

It would certainly be in their business interest to push the NCEs, because without them, they're competing with the supplement industry. I'm sure that Christian Westphal doesn't relish having to get into flamewars with James and Anthony... :~

Health_nutty, I guess we will have to send out The Enforcers from The Cult of Resveratrol to reel you back in, but I don't think that a little CR or IF is a bad idea as an alternative. I think you have time to wait for more data and for the price of resveratrol to come down. It looks to me like clean resveratrol at less than a dollar a gram is probably in our future, given the existence of fermentation methods, synthetic methods, and extraction from a ubiquitous weed.

Edited by niner, 13 February 2008 - 04:06 AM.


#29 bixbyte

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:39 AM

He said 501 is just micronized resveratrol.
That they gave it to the test subjects in a liquid as well as powder form depending on the dosage.
501 is not a very good molecule. They have better ones.
501 synergizes very well with metformin.


He also stated it is combined with stabilizing excipients :~



And a smiley face too! You are having fun with us, Please allow us to know?
In the micronized process what other processes they use on their 501?
Miralax?

Edited by bixbyte, 13 February 2008 - 04:40 AM.


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#30 docmaas

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:53 AM

I've been listening to the webcast. Sounds like the speaker is saying that taking resveratrol alone is almost futile because you can't get enough and because it's not bioavailable enough. I know he's pushing "SRT501", but do any of his claims about alleged ineffectiveness of run-of-the-mill resveratrol have merit?


I listened and read the entire presentation more than once and took some fast notes.

This is paraphrased since I am not a steno.

He said 501 is just micronized resveratrol.
That they gave it to the test subjects in a liquid as well as powder form depending on the dosage.
501 is not a very good molecule. They have better ones.
501 synergizes very well with metformin.

sounds like to me,
Apparently they are doing an about face on 501 and now saying that since doing further R&D they have other better class Sirtuins they identify as NCEs that have not been tested yet and are the future direction for Sirtris.

It would certainly be in their business interest to push the NCEs, because without them, they're competing with the supplement industry. I'm sure that Christian Westphal doesn't relish having to get into flamewars with James and Anthony... :~

LOL

Health_nutty, I guess we will have to send out The Enforcers from The Cult of Resveratrol to reel you back in, but I don't think that a little CR or IF is a bad idea as an alternative. I think you have time to wait for more data and for the price of resveratrol to come down. It looks to me like clean resveratrol at less than a dollar a gram is probably in our future, given the existence of fermentation methods, synthetic methods, and extraction from a ubiquitous weed.


What I got was the thing about excipients, that it was given as both a solid powder and a liquid that the doses were 0,2.5 and 5 grams. Despite his downplaying of the effectiveness the experiments show pretty impressive results. Sure it would be better to have more specific formulation with the same activity but not the drawback of being shortstopped by the liver but it seems likely given the 90% overlap he cited of effects between resveratrol and calorie restriction and the fact that the two are not additive indicates that there is a ceiling of activity that should be determinable by looking back at the prior experiments.

Niner, regarding your earlier note on the methylated or acetylated 0'4 site (sorry don't remember which it was) that maybe the reason no one is making it is because it is not naturally occurring. Is the FDA measure that of naturally occurring but synthetics are ok as long as they are the same molecule? In the paper I cited in response to that, they mentioned that some of the analogues they were looking at were naturally occurring but in smaller quanitites. If a provider were able to show the methylated/aceylated was a natural constituent couldn't they then synthesize that rather than the standard form of resv?

As much as I like to drink alcohol I can't simply because I like it too much. I've found yogurt seems to be a good solvent. Has anyone tried some of the nutrient oils like flax or fish or even olive oil?

Hedge, are you interested in continuing your research here? If so we might consider creating a funding pool to help with the expenses. If the suspected particle size differences are shown to be correct via the sample you should be getting from me this week one of the first tests would be to see if the activity or plasma levels differ according to particle size. We could test the swamping theory, the dmso route, parenteral injections (I don't see how they could be any less safe than dmso), maybe even IM injections. (not IV though!) I'm tempted to do the parenteral myself just need to think of a good solvent. Anyone know what injectable b12 uses?

A lot for one post.

Mike





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