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Dropping resveratrol


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#31 niner

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 05:49 AM

Niner, regarding your earlier note on the methylated or acetylated 0'4 site (sorry don't remember which it was) that maybe the reason no one is making it is because it is not naturally occurring. Is the FDA measure that of naturally occurring but synthetics are ok as long as they are the same molecule? In the paper I cited in response to that, they mentioned that some of the analogues they were looking at were naturally occurring but in smaller quanitites. If a provider were able to show the methylated/aceylated was a natural constituent couldn't they then synthesize that rather than the standard form of resv?

I think that if a substance is naturally occurring, that a synthetic version of it would be ok. Maxwatt or others might be more up on the laws than I am though. The analog in question was 4'O-acetyl resveratrol. I don't know if it occurs naturally. (probably not, but ya never know..)

As much as I like to drink alcohol I can't simply because I like it too much. I've found yogurt seems to be a good solvent. Has anyone tried some of the nutrient oils like flax or fish or even olive oil?

I like alcohol too, but oddly enough the presence of a couple grams of finely divided polyphenols really takes the enjoyment out of it for me... I think people here have tried all of the above. I looked at olive oil and it was a far worse solvent than I would have expected. Milk products seem to work, but some of us have lingering concerns about protein binding. If milk could be shown to be a good delivery system, that would be great. I think missminni reports good results with it. If you use the search option for displaying results as posts rather than threads, you could find some of these reports here. There are some crazily long threads on resveratrol here.

#32 ilanso

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 08:41 AM

As much as I like to drink alcohol I can't simply because I like it too much. I've found yogurt seems to be a good solvent. Has anyone tried some of the nutrient oils like flax or fish or even olive oil?

Here is the pointer to the flax oil recipe, which I'm still using: http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=213967

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#33 docmaas

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 10:53 AM

As much as I like to drink alcohol I can't simply because I like it too much. I've found yogurt seems to be a good solvent. Has anyone tried some of the nutrient oils like flax or fish or even olive oil?

Here is the pointer to the flax oil recipe, which I'm still using: http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=213967


thanks!

Mike

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#34 missminni

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 11:23 AM

Milk products seem to work, but some of us have lingering concerns about protein binding. If milk could be shown to be a good delivery system, that would be great. I think missminni reports good results with it. If you use the search option for displaying results as posts rather than threads, you could find some of these reports here. There are some crazily long threads on resveratrol here.

For what it's worth, I've been dissolving resveratrol in chicken soup (broth only with the fat left in) for
my dogs, and it seems to dissolve very easily. I don't know how that affects the delivery or bio-availability, but the dogs
like it better. I'm still using milk for myself.


#35 maxwatt

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 03:33 PM

Niner, regarding your earlier note on the methylated or acetylated 0'4 site (sorry don't remember which it was) that maybe the reason no one is making it is because it is not naturally occurring. Is the FDA measure that of naturally occurring but synthetics are ok as long as they are the same molecule? In the paper I cited in response to that, they mentioned that some of the analogues they were looking at were naturally occurring but in smaller quanitites. If a provider were able to show the methylated/aceylated was a natural constituent couldn't they then synthesize that rather than the standard form of resv?

I think that if a substance is naturally occurring, that a synthetic version of it would be ok. Maxwatt or others might be more up on the laws than I am though. The analog in question was 4'O-acetyl resveratrol. I don't know if it occurs naturally. (probably not, but ya never know..)

As much as I like to drink alcohol I can't simply because I like it too much. I've found yogurt seems to be a good solvent. Has anyone tried some of the nutrient oils like flax or fish or even olive oil?

I like alcohol too, but oddly enough the presence of a couple grams of finely divided polyphenols really takes the enjoyment out of it for me... I think people here have tried all of the above. I looked at olive oil and it was a far worse solvent than I would have expected. Milk products seem to work, but some of us have lingering concerns about protein binding. If milk could be shown to be a good delivery system, that would be great. I think missminni reports good results with it. If you use the search option for displaying results as posts rather than threads, you could find some of these reports here. There are some crazily long threads on resveratrol here.


I believe people were selling synthetic versions of naturally occurring compounds in the case of "prohormones". Patrick Arnold did this with things like androstenedione , -diol and others. He wasn't prosecuted for that, probably due to a lack of interest and resources by the FDA. He did go to jail, but that was for making the designer steroid in the Balco scandal. He could probably have beaten that, it wasn't on the list of steroids, but he was offered four months in jail versus millions in legal fees. It could make an interesting court case someday. You'll get away with it until they tell you to stop. Which they may never do.

Acetylated resveratrol would be interesting. Water soluble, gets in the cell, stays there pumping out resveratrol....

I was researching other Sirt1 stimulants. EGCG and Silybin. Turns out a Phosphatidyl Choline - Silybin compex is 10 times more bioavailable than Psylybin alone. Silybin has similar bioavailability problems to resveratrol. Lecithin, especially liquid lecithin, is mostly Phosphatidyl Choline. I think Luminous was on the right track, mixing with liquid lecithin, but had the proportions wrong. I think at least six to one ratio by weight, and gently heat -- perhaps a doubleboiler -- might be key. Any chemists have any suggestions?

Or one could use Silybin, a product called I think Silyphos® is ready mixed silybin and Phosphatidyl Choline..

The tastiest alcoholic resveratrol beverage I've tried was Jack Daniels and water. Vodka tastes medicinal. A pomegranate liquor was also tasty.
One person on this forum was dissolving his resveratrol in fish oil. I found it dissolves well in hemp-seed oil too,

#36 inawe

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:42 PM

It would be a mistake to think that RSV only affects Sirtuins.
Over a year ago a member of this forum came up with a thread '"500 club"
500mg of trans-resveratrol per day...'. It started an avalanche of
dose increases. Then it went to "2000 mg/day".
All the media outlets carried stories about this miracle supplement.
People had to have it, the more the better. Spent a lot of money on
RSV and couldn't pay the mortgage.
Thousands of properties were foreclosed. Banks holding the failed
mortgages could hardly sustain the losses. Some went bankrupt. The US
stock market plunged. The recession propagated to the rest of the
world.
Now, the Imminst member who originated the whole thing, started a new
thread to make public that to continue taking RSV would be a hardship
for him. Oh well, it hit pretty hard the whole world.

#37 maxwatt

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 05:07 PM

:~ Ha ha ha ha (to the tune of "Beethovens fifth")

#38 edward

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 07:58 PM

On the subject of oils and such. My latest quick and dirty resveratrol dosing routine is as follows: First take all other supplements including resveratrol "enhancers" (other polyphenols, flavonoids, piperine etc.) chase with grapefruit juice.

Then put 1 tsp fish oil and roughly 1-2 teaspoon sized chunks of coconut oil in your mouth and hold them there. (solid at room temp but will melt pretty quickly in your mouth). Next measure out your resveratrol (for me this has been 1-2 grams per dose), pop that in your mouth also and swish around using your mouth to blend like you are using mouthwash (yes its a little silly but works just fine and you don't have to bother with a blender or stirring). The coconut oil makes it all taste at least to me really good. Swallow and chase with water or your favorite fruit juice :~

The advantages of "blending" in your mouth: ease and quickness of preparation with no messy cleanup, and most of all you don't waste any resveratrol. If you blend in a cup, especially with oil you are going to lose some that coats the side of the container.

Coconut oil really works great by itself (I just throw in the fish oil because I am already taking it at the same time), if you don't use the "mouth blending" technique you will have to warm it up so it will melt which is a pain. If you do warm it up you can see how great a solvent it is for resveratrol, even the "rough" :):p Vital Prime powder I am using now has no problem completely dissolving in warm coconut oil.


advanced method: throw in a teaspoon of liquid lecithin (depending on the capacity of your mouth). I've done this a few mornings but liquid lecithin is a pain.

now that you all think I am completely nuts I will stop for now... :)

edit: gramer n' spelin n' more (too much) information

Edited by edward, 13 February 2008 - 08:07 PM.


#39 niner

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 09:19 PM

[The truth behind the subprime meltdown finally comes out...]

Major LOL!

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#40 tintinet

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 09:52 PM

Don't laugh: all is connected. Butterfly flaps wings......

#41 missminni

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 09:54 PM

The advantages of "blending" in your mouth: ease and quickness of preparation with no messy cleanup, and most of all you don't waste any resveratrol. If you blend in a cup, especially with oil you are going to lose some that coats the side of the container.


edit: gramer n' spelin n' more (too much) information

I do mouth blending too. very convenient and you can tell when it's all dissolved. I figure it's got to
be somewhat good for your gums too.


#42 health_nutty

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 10:28 PM

Don't laugh: all is connected. Butterfly flaps wings......


My bad :~
or in my best "Steve Urkel" voice: "Did *I* do that?"

#43 edward

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:47 AM

It would be a mistake to think that RSV only affects Sirtuins.
Over a year ago a member of this forum came up with a thread '"500 club"
500mg of trans-resveratrol per day...'. It started an avalanche of
dose increases. Then it went to "2000 mg/day".
All the media outlets carried stories about this miracle supplement.
People had to have it, the more the better. Spent a lot of money on
RSV and couldn't pay the mortgage.
Thousands of properties were foreclosed. Banks holding the failed
mortgages could hardly sustain the losses. Some went bankrupt. The US
stock market plunged. The recession propagated to the rest of the
world.
Now, the Imminst member who originated the whole thing, started a new
thread to make public that to continue taking RSV would be a hardship
for him. Oh well, it hit pretty hard the whole world.



:~ Ha ha ha ha (to the tune of "Beethovens fifth")


Don't laugh: all is connected. Butterfly flaps wings......


My bad :)
or in my best "Steve Urkel" voice: "Did *I* do that?"




ROFLMAO
<- And I don't use such over the top internet acronyms lightly

#44 ilanso

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 09:12 AM

Then put 1 tsp fish oil and roughly 1-2 teaspoon sized chunks of coconut oil in your mouth and hold them there. (solid at room temp but will melt pretty quickly in your mouth). Next measure out your resveratrol (for me this has been 1-2 grams per dose), pop that in your mouth also and swish around using your mouth to blend like you are using mouthwash (yes its a little silly but works just fine and you don't have to bother with a blender or stirring).

What we need now is the algorithm for "couple sharing": which spouse holds the oil, who the RSV, how long the French kiss should last, etc. :~ :)

#45 maxwatt

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 03:05 AM

I'm going to stop taking resveratrol because of cost, bioavailability issues, and lack of research. I'm convinced I would have to take huge amounts to overcome the bioavailability issue (we require 6x the equivalent rat amount). Taking with other polyphenols to enhance the bioavailabilty seems to be a crapshoot. To get the necessary quantity, I would need to switch to a purer extract (even more $$$) to avoid the emodin issue. To top it all off we haven't seen that it extends the lifespan of a rat on a normal diet. The only study showed that it allowed the high fat diet rats to live as long as the normal diet rats.

Instead, I've started doing every third day CR (50% of calories every 3 days).


Given that
1) the Nature paper, and some studies referred to in their (Sirtris) slides at theire last presentation, showed positive effects in humans on insulin resistance at 2.5 g/day, and even better at 5 grams, and positive effects were noted on fasting glucose
2) The emodin issue can be circumvented by using a 98 or 99% extract
3) the price of high-purity extracts is down to $1.5/gram and continuing to dclie
Are you likely to reconsider?

Note SRT501 now appears to be merely micronized resveratrol. The other substances (lecithin, Miralax (PEG3350) Tween-80, HPMC and DOSS) are vehicles and surfactants to improve dispersion, and many of us ave found ways to accomplish this aspect with kitchen chemistry.

I will grant that not eating is certainly cheaper than taking a supplement. I was told by one doctor who is studying the field, that even once a month 24 hour fasting is sufficient to prevent arteriosclerosis.

#46 health_nutty

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 05:49 AM

Are you likely to reconsider?

I will grant that not eating is certainly cheaper than taking a supplement. I was told by one doctor who is studying the field, that even once a month 24 hour fasting is sufficient to prevent arteriosclerosis.



Very likely to reconsider at some point (if nothing else for the endurance boost). :~

Here are some major factors:
1) When we go back to dual income (wife at home with kids). This is nothing new, but I felt selfish from time to time when we are sacrificing in other areas.
2) When other studies on rats or higher life forms show increases in maximum lifespans.
3) Price drops significantly across many vendors on 99% powder.

#47 niner

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:07 AM

Very likely to reconsider at some point (if nothing else for the endurance boost). :~

Here are some major factors:
1) When we go back to dual income (wife at home with kids). This is nothing new, but I felt selfish from time to time when we are sacrificing in other areas.
2) When other studies on rats or higher life forms show increases in maximum lifespans.
3) Price drops significantly across many vendors on 99% powder.

health_nutty, I think this is entirely reasonable. From the looks of things, prices are coming down fairly quickly. On item number 2, what if rats on a normal diet did not show increases in maximum lifespan, but did show an increase in average lifespan? I've seen people kind of sniff at that as being "just curve squaring", but, umm, I wouldn't mind getting my curve squared. It beats the alternative, for one thing, and it makes you that much more likely to reach escape velocity, if that's what you're shooting for. As you mention above, the endurance boost and/or anti-inflammatory effects alone might be worth it, at least at some price point.

#48 sUper GeNius

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:40 AM

Very likely to reconsider at some point (if nothing else for the endurance boost). :~

Here are some major factors:
1) When we go back to dual income (wife at home with kids). This is nothing new, but I felt selfish from time to time when we are sacrificing in other areas.
2) When other studies on rats or higher life forms show increases in maximum lifespans.
3) Price drops significantly across many vendors on 99% powder.

health_nutty, I think this is entirely reasonable. From the looks of things, prices are coming down fairly quickly. On item number 2, what if rats on a normal diet did not show increases in maximum lifespan, but did show an increase in average lifespan? I've seen people kind of sniff at that as being "just curve squaring", but, umm, I wouldn't mind getting my curve squared. It beats the alternative, for one thing, and it makes you that much more likely to reach escape velocity, if that's what you're shooting for. As you mention above, the endurance boost and/or anti-inflammatory effects alone might be worth it, at least at some price point.


Which begs the question. Has Sirtis released the lean mice data YET?

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 19 February 2008 - 06:41 AM.


#49 health_nutty

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:42 AM

On item number 2, what if rats on a normal diet did not show increases in maximum lifespan, but did show an increase in average lifespan? I've seen people kind of sniff at that as being "just curve squaring", but, umm, I wouldn't mind getting my curve squared. It beats the alternative, for one thing, and it makes you that much more likely to reach escape velocity, if that's what you're shooting for. As you mention above, the endurance boost and/or anti-inflammatory effects alone might be worth it, at least at some price point.


I agree with you on item 2. This is the whole rational behind my diet, exercise, and supplement routine. I definitely don't sniff at curve squaring, but it doesn't have quite as much appeal as increasing maximum lifespan.

About escape velocity. Well, that certainly would be nice, but I really don't have faith that that will happen (I have a problem with faith in general). My goal is to live the healthiest, fullest life I can. That is the best I can do. Who knows what the future will hold.

#50 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 03:23 PM

Are you likely to reconsider?

I will grant that not eating is certainly cheaper than taking a supplement. I was told by one doctor who is studying the field, that even once a month 24 hour fasting is sufficient to prevent arteriosclerosis.



Very likely to reconsider at some point (if nothing else for the endurance boost). :~

Here are some major factors:
1) When we go back to dual income (wife at home with kids). This is nothing new, but I felt selfish from time to time when we are sacrificing in other areas.
2) When other studies on rats or higher life forms show increases in maximum lifespans.
3) Price drops significantly across many vendors on 99% powder.



Hi... what price are you looking for that would start making it acceptable again for a one income family?

Just curious.
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 19 February 2008 - 03:24 PM.


#51 inawe

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 05:19 PM

Which begs the question. Has Sirtis released the lean mice data YET?

On condition of anonymity a highly placed officer of SIRTRIS Corporation revealed why it is taking so long for the clinical trials data to be published. "We didn't expect the laxative effects to be so strong" he said, " we are spending a lot of money, time and effort in cleaning the facility".

#52 Hedgehog

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 05:32 PM

Which begs the question. Has Sirtis released the lean mice data YET?

On condition of anonymity a highly placed officer of SIRTRIS Corporation revealed why it is taking so long for the clinical trials data to be published. "We didn't expect the laxative effects to be so strong" he said, " we are spending a lot of money, time and effort in cleaning the facility".

DO you have a link?

we are spending a lot of money, time and effort in cleaning the facility".


What the heck does that mean? That they didn't follow FDA-GMP guidlines? A simple answer would be is they need a better formulation (use less product = less side effects) or use a more potent molecule.

And why can't they publish data because of a laxative effect?

Edited by hedgehog_info, 19 February 2008 - 05:35 PM.


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#53 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 05:41 PM

I am pretty sure it was a joke...

#54 inawe

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:15 PM

I am pretty sure it was a joke...

Nobody that experienced the laxative effect would call it a joke

#55 health_nutty

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:27 PM

That is a good question Anthony, let me go through my story in detail and I'll try to find your answer along the way.

I originally started taking resveratrol when I thought I could get the equivalent Sinclair rat study dosage (with fat rats taking 30mg/kg) by taking 5mg/kg using a scaling factor of 1/6 between humans and rats. That would mean taking 340mg a day for me (150lbs) or $10 a month for 50% extract. Pretty cheap.

However, more data comes along and shows that we don't need 1/6 of the rat dosage, but 6x the amount. This means I need to take 180mg/kg a day or 12.24g per day. At this point I upped my dosage to a mere 800mg a day (jumping to $24 a month) and looked for ways to increase the bioavailabiltiy. With a 50% powder my choices were somewhat limited. The most effective method of increasing bioavailability seems like dissolving or micronizing the higher purtity extract and stabilizing in lecithin. I tried this with 50% powder, but was never confident that it would have any effect with a 50% powder. I also tried various polyphenols to improve the bioavailabiltiy, but we had no way of knowing if it was more effective or not (except Maxwatt's big toe shot down a couple: quercetin and luteolin). Also, at 800mg a day I was okay most of the time but would be more sensitive to foods that cause gas or a laxative effect. Also I was buying extra supplements with the sole reason to improve the resveratrol bioavailabilty (grape seed extract, silymarin, lecithin, cranberry and grapefruit juices, luteolin). My value regimine was quickly sliding down a slippery slope!

About the same time I started reading about alternate day fasting and alternate day CR. I have always been very interested in CR, but I didn't want to look like a twig. Several studies (including a human study) showed even more benefits with alternate day fasting than just CR (and while not cutting total calories). Wow, I get the benefits of CR without having to cut my total calories. Now I have a viable alternative to resveratrol that doesn't cost any money.

I guess the answer to your question is, when a high purity resveratrol gets down to $10 a month for an effective dosage I'll probably jump back in.

Edited by health_nutty, 19 February 2008 - 06:27 PM.


#56 drmz

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:42 PM

Hi... what price are you looking for that would start making it acceptable again for a one income family?

Just curious.
A



The profit margin seems to be around 50%. The profit margin is even higher if revgenetics has a profit on their wholesale products. Seems to me like a very good business.

Download for wholesale prices > Attached File  Wholesale_List.doc   752KB   58 downloads

Edited by drmz, 19 February 2008 - 06:42 PM.


#57 Athanasios

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:43 PM

Wow, I get the benefits of CR without having to cut my total calories.

Data supports only a probable avg lifespan increase and not a max, IMO. I am currently on IF for about 2 months now and will update my regimen later to reflect that. I will also go full CR at age 60 if tech hasnt advanced as fast as I expected and I need more time. I am enjoying it and think you made a smart choice. I have thought about taking a small dose of resveratrol on my fast days, however, but have not had time to measure the cost benefits out.

#58 health_nutty

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:59 PM

Wow, I get the benefits of CR without having to cut my total calories.

Data supports only a probable avg lifespan increase and not a max, IMO. I am currently on IF for about 2 months now and will update my regimen later to reflect that. I will also go full CR at age 60 if tech hasnt advanced as fast as I expected and I need more time. I am enjoying it and think you made a smart choice. I have thought about taking a small dose of resveratrol on my fast days, however, but have not had time to measure the cost benefits out.


I keep hearing this business of resveratrol + CR had a worse effect than CR alone. Do you have any links to the study? (No luck with a web search on CR and resveratrol LOL!)

#59 mikeinnaples

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 07:02 PM

$30 dollars a month per person in your family isn't unreasonable ...providing it was high quality, micronized 99% purity Resveratrol at a 1.5g per day doseage. That would be $0.67 a gram ....... the closest we have that doesn't involved a multi-kilogram purchase from Revgenetics for thousands of dollars is Vitalprime, as as far as I am concerned, its still suspect. So our current best bet is Mega-Resveratrol at the 240g mark at 1.80 a gram ...or nearly triple to what I would see as a reasonable price point for most families, especially when you multiply that by 2 or more to account for other family members. Until it comes down, it will be out of range of the average american family.



To me .....I would pay $75 each for myself and my wife ($150.00 total) for high quality, micronized 99% purity Resveratrol at a 1.5g per day doseage. That would be $1.67 / gram price point for me. Still out of range of the revgenetics product at an afforable quantity (though if I could afford to drop cash for 25 kilos, I could get it at 33% the price of the 100 gram product ...but who has 16k to throw at resv).

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#60 Athanasios

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 07:13 PM

I keep hearing this business of resveratrol + CR had a worse effect than CR alone. Do you have any links to the study? (No luck with a web search on CR and resveratrol LOL!)

The only one I have verified was one where res + CR was no better than CR alone, I dont have link on hand. I havent had proper time to look into anything more specifically, as you noticed there isnt a lot of info readily available. It will take more digging and cross analysis.




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