106 replies to this topic

[JLL]

I think he's saying that 20% off 2,400 kcal may not count as calorie restriction in the sense that would extend lifespan. That'd be like saying that "I used to eat 4,000 kcal, now I only eat 3,000 kcal, therefore I'm on CR".

That said, this whole calculation thing with CR never made sense to me. I don't see how you could calculate any kind of "calorie intake set point" in humans.

[forever freedom]

I think he's saying that 20% off 2,400 kcal may not count as calorie restriction in the sense that would extend lifespan. That'd be like saying that "I used to eat 4,000 kcal, now I only eat 3,000 kcal, therefore I'm on CR".

That said, this whole calculation thing with CR never made sense to me. I don't see how you could calculate any kind of "calorie intake set point" in humans.

Well how doesn't it make sense? If a set amount of daily calories keeps my weight stable, and if all other conditions remain equal, if i restrict this amount, then i am going to lose weight and will be practicing calorie restriction.

[Brain_Ischemia]

Does this makes thing a bit clearer or am i the one completely misunderstanding everything?

Makes sense.

[JLL]

Well how doesn't it make sense? If a set amount of daily calories keeps my weight stable, and if all other conditions remain equal, if i restrict this amount, then i am going to lose weight

Yes.

and will be practicing calorie restriction.

Maybe.

What about if 5,000 kcal per day keeps your weight stable (overweight, but still stable), and then you cut back all the way down to 3,000 kcal? That's a 40% reduction, but would you really call this 40% CR? I wouldn't. It just means you ate way too much to begin with. This then brings us to the question of what would be an accetable starting weight (the "set point") from which to start calculating CR -- and there doesn't seem to be any good answer.

I don't refute that CR might very well work in humans, I just think this whole calculation business makes very little sense. And anything above 2,000 kcal doesn't seem like CR to me.

[forever freedom]

If a set amount of daily calories keeps my weight stable, and if all other conditions remain equal, if i restrict this amount, then i [...] will be practicing calorie restriction.

Maybe.

What about if 5,000 kcal per day keeps your weight stable (overweight, but still stable), and then you cut back all the way down to 3,000 kcal? That's a 40% reduction, but would you really call this 40% CR? ... I just think this whole calculation business makes very little sense. And anything above 2,000 kcal doesn't seem like CR to me.

I get your point. Anyways, i'm keeping an eye on the weight loss; considering i'm not overweight to start with, that's reliable and tells me if i'm restricting enough calories.

Edited by Michael, 06 September 2010 - 09:07 PM.
Trim quotes

[FNC]

1700 to 1900, an educated guess, don't count though :-)

[erzebet]

1400-1700 calories. I tried to increase the number of calories some years ago to gain weight and after some days of 2000 calories it was enough for me.
even in my junk food periods i still couldn't eat 2000 calories, 2 hamburgers per day(700 calories) and some vegetables at home were enough for me. i do have a better diet now, because my income got less so i needed more bang for the buck, and i'm glad it did- vegetables are really wonderful and i feel better.

about my weight, my bmi was mainly 17.5-18.5 all my life. i am now 18.7 since i gave up junk food.

[neue regel]

1400-1700 for my 68 kilos. I can't go lower, I am concerned about undernutrition.

[tunt01]

1750 per day. about 58 kg / 128 lbs., height 5'8".

i do 2-3 miles of cardiovascular work (HIIT, jogging, stairmaster) and do resistance training 5 days a week.
my 2 rest days per week, i just walk like 4-5 miles. maybe jog 1 mile and walk 4. pretty light though.

[Forever21]

Aug 2010

1000-1300 calories.

[Sillewater]

Aug 2010

1000-1300 calories.

How tall are you? Weight? That's not a lot of calories.

[Forever21]

Aug 2010

1000-1300 calories.

How tall are you? Weight? That's not a lot of calories.

5'7
130lbs (60kg)
I'm following recipes from a book ....for now.

[JLL]

How is it possible to weigh 60 kg while eating only 1000-1300 kcal? That doesn't make sense to me. I eat ~2,000 kcal and I'm at 62 kg.

[Forever21]

pages 292 - 305 of the book i mentioned above.

[leha]

I used both Taurus' calculator and just BMI (and a goal of BMI = 20) to calculate my calories for CR based on a recent period of time when I knew exactly how much I was consuming, had stable weight, performed a very stable exercise routine, and had a stable BMI of 20.4.

The result? Practically the same: according to BMI alone, I need 1000 kcals/day to maintain a 20.0 BMI. According to the calculator, which factored in my activity level, I need 965 kcals/day to do CR. This is a CR of around 52% as compared to my calculated "twin."

I think this proves a couple of things. One is that metabolism can vary greatly from one individual to the next (I already knew that, because I know so many people who eat so much more than I do and maintain roughly the same body shape). Another is that activity level really does not matter, even though it might seem like it should. Why not? Because it cancels itself out. Your BMI, combined with your calorie consumption, is already telling the whole story. You can factor in your activity level, but you will only be factoring it back out later, and it actually creates any opportunity to introduce errors (I'm pretty sure 1000 kcal/day would do it for me and I don't need to drop the other 35).

What does matter, though, is that you have a way to accurately measure your own personal BMR, and the only way I know of to do this at home is to carefully monitor your caloric intake and BMI over a period when they are both fixed and pretty close to "normal" (BMI is somewhere in the 20 to 25 range).

This would then have to be repeated periodically, because your metabolism can and will change as you both restrict calories and grow older. If you are like me, you may find that the longer you do both, the less calories you end up needing (to a point, anyway). I got this crazy (but very efficient) metabolism from doing CR on and off my whole life of 51 years.

[Sillewater]

5'7
130lbs (60kg)
I'm following recipes from a book ....for now.

Cool, that makes sense probably around 40% CR depending on your activity levels (the 1000 calories). Do you have a more accurate measurement, like a weekly average?

(I know that determining maintenance calories in humans are very hard but it works for me and a lot of people I know: Katch-Mcardle Equation [w/ 10% margin of error])

[Forever21]

August
(60kg)

September
(58kg)

October
(62kg)


i just binge for a week last week.

[Ace of Zardoz]

I currently consume 1900 calories at a height of 6 feet (183 cm). I am still rather new to CRON (4 months on CRON)though Ive studied it for years before attempting it. I started at 1750 calories but it didnt feel like enough and I wasnt meeting my nutritional goals so it was slowly increased to 1900 calories. I lift weights once a week now with a HIT style workout. I exercise most days of the week at a moderate pace (65% of MHR) 30 to 60 min. I started out at 249 lbs (113 kilos) and dropped to 213 lbs (96.5 kilos). The whole last month my weight bounces up and down between 213 and 214, so relatively the same although my body fat percentage is slowly dropping.

This whole time Ive gained muscle and strength at a good pace. Ive also been quite strongly muscled and have a wider/heavier frame than most at my height.

I dont think I could ever achieve much below the BMI of 24 to 25. Even when I was in my teen years and was vegan while participating in sports and activities 4 hours daily I was still around the 24 to 25 BMI range but looked quite anorexic and bony at even 80 kilos and never dropped below that despite eating only very low calorie density foods.

I think at best I could only aim for about 24 BMI. Jack Lalanne has a BMI of 24 and is 96 years old and extremely healthy so Im not too concerned about BMI. I dont think BMI is very accurate for large framed or naturally heavily muscled body types.

Throughout the whole cron experience so far I have lost little muscle mass and mostly fat weight. I seem to gain muscle and strength very easily no matter what I do.

My recent blood tests have shown great improvements across the board on the limited panels I had done recently as part of a checkup.

[Ichoose2live]

CALORIES: 1773,5.

Foods:
Breakfast
- 180g Apple
- 250 ml, nonfat milk
- 1½, cup, Cereal Vector
- 2000 IU, Vitamin D-3
Dinner
- 300g, White potatoes
- 250 ml, Red kidney beans
- 1 extra large banana
- 100g, Yogourt yoplait

Natural Whey protein, Post-workout
Supper
- 1¼ cup, Brown Rice
- 1 large Carrot
- 200 ml, Spinach

http://nutritiondata.self.com/

Edited by Ichoose2live, 21 February 2011 - 04:57 AM.

[Dorho]

pea soup with small onion chopped in = 400 + 30
2 crisp breads with "butterine" (butter+canola oil) and tomato pyré = 130
a few walnuts = 200?
spirulina + chlorella = 30?
small apple= 77
brewer's yeast = 20
canned mackerel = 225
2 crisp breads with butterine and tomato pyré = 130
large orange = 86

=1330 kcal

Edited by Dorho, 28 February 2011 - 06:46 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Reading some of this and taking stock of my diet, I am pretty darn close to CR without trying specifically with the exception being the days I lift weights. I am averaging about 1750 calories on a normal day and 2000 or so on workout days. As of this morning, I am 6'1 @ 189. Posting BMI is worthless for me due to muscle (besides you can run the calc yourself if you want), but my most recent body fat% came in at 7.2%.

Personally, I feel I am at the absolute minimum calorie intake I can be at and still maintain my activities. Do you really think for me, dropping from 1750 calories to 1600 or so and from 2000 to 1600 on my workout days would affect my performance, muscles, endurance, etc? This has always been my first and foremost concern with CR. I absolutely have been haunting this subforum for a while reading posts by various people......

[Moonlitnight]

I am 5.8" and have somewhere between 1200 and 1400 daily. Any less and I get severe migraines. I also take LEF's CR Mimetic Longevity formula. I am 59, a medical/consumer health journalist by profesion, and people think I'm 39 or younger. It's more than calorie restriction, I live a lifestyle that's geared (read obsessed) with retarding/reversing aging. I also take carboxy alkyl esters for enhanced DNA repair (they have recently come on the supplement market).

[scottknl]

I'm 6'2" , 155 lbs. 1630 - 1730 calories per day. Breakfast is oatmeal, beans, fo-ti, huang qi, raisins, quinoa, nuts, cocoa powder. Lunch is vegetable soup, spinach& coleslaw, berries, nuts. Dinner is.
vegetable soup again. Peanut butter on flax bread is optional.

[mikeinnaples]

I'm 6'2" , 155 lbs. 1630 - 1730 calories per day. Breakfast is oatmeal, beans, fo-ti, huang qi, raisins, quinoa, nuts, cocoa powder. Lunch is vegetable soup, spinach& coleslaw, berries, nuts. Dinner is.
vegetable soup again. Peanut butter on flax bread is optional.

Scott,

Wow .... within an inch of my height but 34 lbs lighter. I am not sure where I could lose 34lbs from even if I stopped exercising all together. This amazes me even more because that is approximately the weight my grandfather was at, at your height after he spent close to a year wasting away from cancer prior to his death.

Because of my preconception, I have to ask: Do you have honestly have the energy and strength to perform difficult physical activity and exercise at that height/weight? This is the biggest thing scaring me away from CR. If I cant jog on the beach, surf effectively, etc. ....then the sacrifice for a few extra years is worthless to me.

[scottknl]

Hi mike, I'm currently running a rowing challenge that has me rowing at a daily fast pace for 1 hr each day. In summer I run 1 hr 10 km 3x per week. I used to be 205 lbs and bench 255, but now probably only 160. Traded strength and mass for longevity and speed. My limit is about 2.5 hrs then I run out of energy. My health is fantastic now as usual for CR. Before CR it sucked with IBS, high cholesterol. My opinion is lean Functional mass is better than strong with no stamina.

Edited by scottknl, 10 March 2011 - 04:53 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Hi mike, I'm currently running a rowing challenge that has me rowing at a daily fast pace for 1 hr each day. In summer I run 1 hr 10 km 3x per week. I used to be 205 lbs and bench 255, but now probably only 160. Traded strength and mass for longevity andrea speed. My health is fantastic now as usual for CR. Before CR it sucked with IBS, high cholesterol. My opinion is lean
Functional mass is better than strong with no stamina.

Ok, wow ...you and I both have the same philosophy on lean/functional muscle. Activities like surfing usually have me going at it hard for 4+ hours without break during a good swell, so I am definately with you on the stamina issue. Honestly though, I am not sure where I could drop that kind of weight and still function (maybe our frames are different?). At 189, I can bench 265 ...but I dont lift weights anymore for the purpose of size. I am progressively trying to cut back my weight/size while maintaining as much strength as possible. I guess there is a point where your calorie intake wont support your muscle mass and you start to lose it. I am trying to walk that line as much as possible. Anyways ...thanks for the response, it gives me more to consider.

[karen]

At 6', my goal eating target is 1610 net per day. I keep track of exercise (though probably do more than what's recorded) and the food I eat with the Loseit! iPhone app.

It shows I'm getting about 25% fats, 65% carbs, 10% protein on a vegan (totally non-fascist vegan BTW ).

The last few weeks I've been having green smoothies for breakfast, and evening snack consisting at least 8 servings of fruit and 8 cups of green leafy vegetables per day.

Last I checked my BMI is 18.8

[scottknl]

At 6', my goal eating target is 1610 net per day. I keep track of exercise (though probably do more than what's recorded) and the food I eat with the Loseit! iPhone app.

It shows I'm getting about 25% fats, 65% carbs, 10% protein on a vegan (totally non-fascist vegan BTW ).

The last few weeks I've been having green smoothies for breakfast, and evening snack consisting at least 8 servings of fruit and 8 cups of green leafy vegetables per day.

Last I checked my BMI is 18.8

Hi Karen, I'm doing a vegan version of CR too for the last year and a half. About 2 years of CR total. I've been trying to balance my protein intake 1/3 from tofu, 1/3 from beans and spinach/broccoli, and 1/3 from quorn, beancurd sheet & misc.
My protein is 15%, 34% fats, 61% carbs. What are your protein sources?

[karen]

Mostly beans and vegetables now. I once ate a lot of soy, but I'm leaning against it.

[sapentia]

Reading some of this and taking stock of my diet, I am pretty darn close to CR without trying specifically with the exception being the days I lift weights. I am averaging about 1750 calories on a normal day and 2000 or so on workout days. As of this morning, I am 6'1 @ 189. Posting BMI is worthless for me due to muscle (besides you can run the calc yourself if you want), but my most recent body fat% came in at 7.2%.

Personally, I feel I am at the absolute minimum calorie intake I can be at and still maintain my activities. Do you really think for me, dropping from 1750 calories to 1600 or so and from 2000 to 1600 on my workout days would affect my performance, muscles, endurance, etc? This has always been my first and foremost concern with CR. I absolutely have been haunting this subforum for a while reading posts by various people......

I too have considered CR but the muscle wasting mindset has prohibited me from adopting it as a lifestyle. Interestingly though, during my cutting periods I take in roughly 1800 kcal/day. Strangely, I actually enjoy having to eat less. In the past when I've had to eat 3600 kcal/day it became very difficult and unenjoyable. From my observations, everything in our bodies that triggers an anabolic response inversely relates to longevity. I'm a hair under 5'-10", 170 lbs. at approximately 10% bf. I don't want to gain anymore bodyweight but would prefer to remain 170 at around 7% bodyfat. My strength is okay for my size at 255 for bench and 315 for squats. I will probably experiment with protracted periods of lower calorie intake while closely observing my strength and bodyweight/bodyfat. I do incorporate carb refeeds in order to raise leptin levels; this doesn't necessarily mean eating more calories, just increasing the percentage of carbohydrates while lowering fat since carbs trigger leptin release. I consider myself in a perpetual state of learning with regards to these issues as well as other areas of supplementation with the end goal being an enhanced body/mind preserved as long as possible.