104 replies to this topic

[AgeVivo]

Action:

METHUSELAH FOUNDATION POLL TO SEARCH FOR SERIOUS VOLUNTEERS:
http://www.mfoundation.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1368

Please answer there, especially if you have already voted here!!

[AgeVivo]

...why have so few people answered the MF poll so far?

[AgeVivo]

larger water bottle: (...) i think it must be at least 20 Lbs [for when] we take vacations [, if] we have 5 mice per cage

i think i had made a mistake with unit conversions: 20 Lbs is huge ;-)
With the summer [or new bottle tip, or age or methylene blue] the water level goes down a bit faster than i previously saw: with 5 mice per cage that would be 850ml (= 30 fl oz) every other week. With some margin that makes 2 Lbs or 1 liter.

Edited by AgeVivo, 23 June 2009 - 09:51 AM.

[Hagazussa]

Well I am an occultist not a scientist, but yes I am trying out my methods on my small short lived pets. Science I know nothing about, but I have no problem testing something on an animal as long as it is beneficial to them, if however it is painful, and the animal is used as a use and toss item then I have a huge problem with it. How can we work towards longer life, even stopping aging if we do not respect life. At least that is my take on it.

[AgeVivo]

I am trying out my methods on my small short lived pets

what do you have: dogs? mice? other?

Edited by AgeVivo, 23 June 2009 - 03:34 PM.

[Hagazussa]

Miniature hamsters, they live for about 2 to 2 and a half years, are generally healthy, small and the best of all I am not allergic to them as I am many rodents. For now I am doing nothing organized. I have one at the time and try to see if I can make them live longer than the maximum lifespan.

[AgeVivo]

nice. Do they exercise or eat special things then?

[AgeVivo]

METHUSELAH FOUNDATION POLL TO SEARCH FOR SERIOUS VOLUNTEERS:
http://www.mfoundation.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1368

Please answer there, especially if you have already voted here!!

* BUMP *

Please answer there or post your answer here.
If we are less than 8 there is no point to try MPrize @ home

[AgeVivo]

METHUSELAH FOUNDATION POLL TO SEARCH FOR SERIOUS VOLUNTEERS:
http://www.mfoundation.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1368

If it is too much asking for you to vote there, answer here the following test:

How good a MPrize@home participant would you be?

• i am interested (in raising mice) [post why, and degree of certainty]
• i think i would take good care of the mice (eg not forget them) [post why]
• i think i will not mix treatments (treatment A and mice A go to cage A) [post why]
• i think i would report the experiment correctly (including mistakes) [post why]
• i think i would handle 2 cages of 5 mice correctly [post why or specify]
• i might be a good participant, but not soon [post why/when]
• i think i can help MPrize@home in another way [post how]

If you don't answer, say what the trouble is with this test!
Celebrities are dying, millions of people are dying, my mice are already quite old, ... are you dead already? Don't be passive, React!: participate, or discuss here, help MPrize @ home take place. I want to beat the reaper and i need you!

Edited by AgeVivo, 30 June 2009 - 02:50 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Why don't you go to a petshop to first see ?

[didierc]

Hello AgeVivo,

It is a great idea. It will probably be possible for me. I think that a very important aspect is the "double blind" question. It should be prohibited to communicate about which group receives what. And it is also very important that the people working at home cannot see the difference between the products (the same color for example).

Another positive thing with mice is what they sometimes call in Dutch "Aaibaarheidsfactor" (how much you want to stroke an animal). The mice are sympathetic animals (at least as long as they stay in their cage!). So it makes this work more attractive than with flies or fish.

Didier

[AgeVivo]

Hello AgeVivo,

It is a great idea. It will probably be possible for me.

Great! With you we would be at least 4 now.
When you have time please fill the MF poll : http://www.mfoundati...read.php?p=6961
or answer here are directly to longevity#agevivo.com (#=@)

I think that a very important aspect is the "double blind" question. It should be prohibited to communicate about which group receives what.

Yes, s123 proposed to be the one who sends the treatments and controls, so he will be the one who will use letter A for the treatment and B for the control for some "mouse raisers", and letter B for the treatment and A for the control for other "mouse raisers". The list of who receives treatment as A and who receives treatment as B will be kept secret by s123 and will also be in a security place (to define). As you know and as some SENS, MF and imminst leaders know, s123 is someone whose integrity we can fully trust.

And it is also very important that the people working at home cannot see the difference between the products (the same color for example).

Yes, this is smthg product dependant of course. In the case of Methylene Blue, this is something we have been discussing with s123, he already has methylene blue and chemical tools to prepare things correctly. Then, there is always the risk that a chemist participates and finds out what he receives exactly, but such risks may happen with all blind research tests.

Another positive thing with mice is what they sometimes call in Dutch "Aaibaarheidsfactor" (how much you want to stroke an animal). The mice are sympathetic animals (at least as long as they stay in their cage!). So it makes this work more attractive than with flies or fish.

yes, indeed, mice are nice

[AgeVivo]

If you don't live in a cavern you have probably seen that rapamycin extends mouse lifespan... under specific pathogen free conditions (http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=31286). Everyone is wondering whether it would work in humans because... rapamycin is a immuno-suppressant.

Indeed usual mouse lifespan tests are done in quasi-sterile conditions, but not MPrize at home!
MPrize at home is done under 'NORMAL' conditions: our houses: modern human conditions!
Therefore i'd be quite interested in testing rapamycin in MPrize at home?

[AgeVivo]

A update from http://mfoundation.o...amp;postcount=2:

Environment
Cages
Buy 2 plastic (plexiglass) cages in your local petstore (one cage= 20€ to 30$) or online (post further below). For example a blue paradisio natura. Buy also a large water bottle (<=1 L) and litter (straw;not wood chips). Adavantage of the petstore: you get advice and meet people who might be interested in participating.
Cages with metal bars: mice would spill things out. Glass cages: good quality but heavy, breakable, toys and drinking water are difficult to install). Only warning with plexiglass (plastic) cages: mice tend to enlarge existing holes so if your cage comes with such holes you'll have to find a trick to hide the holes.
Mice
Start with 2 young and cheap petstore mice to get hands on. Later, to really start, we will probably give them back and buy 10 C57BL6male breeders (eg from Harlan) of the same age, the oldest you can (9 months, 1y if they have?). C57BL6 is the most used strain in science, from which much knowledge and mutants are derived. Hybrid mice could be better in some ways. Petstore mice are young (hence long experiment) and often don't have birth certificates.
Handling
Put the cages above your cupboards in the kitchen. Change them (litter,water,food) once a week or every other week. Mice are pets. Having them in your appartment/home provides some garantie that they will have correct living conditions. Encaged mice require much less work than a cat or a dog. If you don't feel at ease, go to a petstore to be reassured, and ask to touch one and hold it by the tail close to the body. If not sufficient, start with one mouse from a petstore. If at some time you decide to interrupt the experiment, say it: known survival up to that date is important knowledge; and you may give the mice back to the petstore: mice are often buy as food for pet snakes
How many?/Cost
2 cages of 5 mice per person = around 100$ or 400$ initially (petstore mice or C57BL6 mice), plus <=10$ per month, including everything (animals, cages, food, etc). At least 8 such persons are needed for a single experiment (compound versus control), in order to have good statistics. More persons allow more experiments
Experiments
Scientifically valid?
In some sense, yes.
- distributed environments: many homes and few mice per home rather than one place with many mice. it can tests if a life extension is robust in the sense of working accross many places. This can be important as the Intervention Testing Program several times reported that results vary from one place to another
- at home experiment: it can test if a life-extending strategy works in "normal, modern-human conditions" rather than a standardized lab (12h light per day; virtually no season, no cold, no stress). This can be important for example as the immunosuppressant rapamycin might only extend lifespan in quasi-sterile conditions
What shall we test first?
Methylene blue (large safety logs at the dose to use, and many beneficial effects reported in various models). For easy handling animals should have more food than necessary (ad libitum): caloric restriction will not be considered. Later, to discuss: proof of concept or new strategies or combination? rapamycin, methionine restriction, benagene, methylene blue, clioquinol, aspirin & NDGA, curcuma, lithium, resveratrol, other; or mutants (dward, Igf1, pepck, other)?
What shall we measure?
Lifespan is great and sufficient. Pictures & behavior if you wish. We are not considering: weight, length, size of belly, body temperature, blood glucose, ketones in urine, autopsy: limit secondary time-consuming things to take care of your mice...and your life
When do we start?
First we need to be sufficient (PM me if you are interested; for now we are 5) and to check that we all feel confident (i now have 5 mice; in 2 weeks i will take another cage, so that i pre-test everything before). Then, as soon as we feel we have sufficient answers to those questions. I'd say by the end of 2009

Edited by AgeVivo, 09 August 2009 - 06:04 PM.

[Destiny's Equation]

Has a combination of optimal nutritional supplementation and electromagnetic stimulation already been tried?

I am referring to TMS-style electromagnetic stimulation (fields that rapidly switch on and off), not the constant electromagnetic radiation that comes from household electronics etc.

If no one has done it before, what species would be best to test on?