37 replies to this topic

[JackCole]

"Is religion the opiate for the masses?"

Is religion the ability to shrug off the fear of death? Does the fear of death create an after life?

Do you feel soothed knowing theres an afterlife? Does it calm a basic fear or is there a masterplan from God?

[abolitionist]

My personal opinion is that religion is a fundamental human need, and without finding a healthy avenue for its expression we deny ourselves access to what is potentially a very beautiful and powerful aspect of our humanity.

Religion (or attributional errors that serve social order) is a symptom of Darwinian design. There's nothing beautiful or powerful about being too stupid to think rationally or being addicted to lies for mental health. It's too bad we have to develop lies to cope with the realities of life and pretend that we are something that we are not.

Edited by abolitionist, 01 May 2008 - 07:03 AM.

[abolitionist]

"Is religion the opiate for the masses?"

Is religion the ability to shrug off the fear of death? Does the fear of death create an after life?

Do you feel soothed knowing theres an afterlife? Does it calm a basic fear or is there a masterplan from God?

Knowing would be comforting, theorizing doesn't really help.

[abolitionist]

My personal opinion is that religion is a fundamental human need, and without finding a healthy avenue for its expression we deny ourselves access to what is potentially a very beautiful and powerful aspect of our humanity.

Religion (or attributional errors that serve social order) is a symptom of Darwinian design. There's nothing beautiful or powerful about being too stupid to think rationally or being addicted to lies for mental health. It's too bad we have to develop lies to cope with the realities of life and pretend that we are something that we are not.

So? I see no reason to deny my biology, rather I prefer to make the best use of what I currently have. I have found that my religious practices allow me to function at a higher level in terms of the pleasure I get out of life and in terms of my intellectual pursuits. If one day another, more effective means becomes available to me then likely the less effective means will fall likely away naturally. I'm not a computer, I enjoy both poetry and mathematics; I am capable of both rational and non-rational thinking.

I bet we can get all the benefits of religious practicies without the beliefs. The mind will inevitably make convenient assumptions and create outright lies to quell cognitive dissonance whether we want it to or not.

[Cyberbrain]

"Is religion the opiate for the masses?"

Something like that.

Is religion the ability to shrug off the fear of death?

Yes.

Does the fear of death create an after life?

Yes. But sometimes, in the ancient world, the afterlife was also modeled after politics.

Do you feel soothed knowing theres an afterlife?

If I was a believer, yes.

Does it calm a basic fear or is there a masterplan from God?

The root of all fears, a human can have, is the fear of death (oblivion). This is hardwired into us from evolution.

If I was a believer, religion would calm all of my fears.

I'm not sure what you mean by "masterplan from God"?

[Brainbox]

"Is religion the opiate for the masses?"

Practically spoken, no. Opiates are forbidden substances. Furthermore, they seem to add to a state of sort of open mindedness.

Do you feel soothed knowing theres an afterlife?

Is there an afterlife then? It seems that the existence of an afterlife is a proposition in this forum contribution?

Edited by brainbox, 01 May 2008 - 09:48 PM.

[Wandering Jew]

"Is religion the opiate for the masses?"

Practically spoken, no. Opiates are forbidden substances. Furthermore, they seem to add to a state of sort of open mindedness.

Do you feel soothed knowing theres an afterlife?

Is there an afterlife then? It seems that the existence of an afterlife is a proposition in this forum contribution?

opiate maybe maybe not. I think the quote comes from Marx, lenin , or Mao . probably Lenin saying "Religion is the opium for the masses."

[niner]

opiate maybe maybe not. I think the quote comes from Marx, lenin , or Mao . probably Lenin saying "Religion is the opium for the masses."

It was Marx.

[forever freedom]

Religion is the way people find to escape from the cold reality. Most people screw their lives and must find a way to magically "fix" all that. What's better than believing that a superior being is taking care of everything around you and always wants the best for you?

[Heliotrope]

Religion is the way people find to escape from the cold reality. Most people screw their lives and must find a way to magically "fix" all that. What's better than believing that a superior being is taking care of everything around you and always wants the best for you?

yeah the superior being just like my childhood imaginary friend or my imaginary big bro who will beat up all the fat bullies for me!

[abolitionist]

Believing in a benevolent God causes cognitive dissonance - for how can you believe that when there are millions of examples to the contrary and no proof of an afterlife to justify this life.

[Brainbox]

Believing in a benevolent God causes cognitive dissonance - for how can you believe that when there are millions of examples to the contrary and no proof of an afterlife to justify this life.

It requires faith, pure faith.

Which is quite a personal achievement, although aimed at goals that are out of order in our modern society. Using personal energy in order to limit your personal development is out of this time. Although it helped formation of tribal and communital spirit and structures during pre medieval times, to create some form of structure in the chaotic "society" that existed that time.

It helped (i.e. was part of) evolution and was the basis for humanity to become what we are today. A strong society that is the basis for great things to happen.

Now is the time to move on, we need start investing our personal energy into other goals. Which will not happen in a few milliseconds, but will take significant time. The fact that we are discussing these issues in a global internet forum shows that we are growing into the right direction.

Needles to say that I'm quite positive about the future, despite certain fundamental (religious) dogmatic movements that still exist.

Edited by brainbox, 03 May 2008 - 10:36 AM.

[Brainbox]

There are so many words that address human determination to reach goals; faith, trustworthy, belief, cult, confidence, trust, etc. etc. Just like Eskimos have about 100 different words for different forms of snow. But snow is still snow.

We will need to abandon the forms of determination that come with judgement without proof. And create a better notion what proof actually is. Is there proof in religious scriptures? Or in pharmaceutical biased scientific studies that bash supplement usage? Or limited studies that claim that substance R is all we need to live longer? Or the kind of proof to that is needed to execute death penalty?

The next step in our development is to try to deal with the concept of proof in stead of avoiding it.

Come on, lets act as adults and stop calling each other names.

Edited by brainbox, 03 May 2008 - 11:07 AM.

[mentatpsi]

the quote comes from Marx taking into consideration that the bourgeois of the time used opium. Since the masses were being exploited by the bourgeois, Marx compared religion to be the opium of the masses... but Marx had a primarily economic reason (a form of deprivation theory) as to why religion occurs. According to him, if man becomes a social elite, he will vanquish religion as he is within the comforts of economic security, i'm sure many of us know this to be inaccurate. Deprivation Theory also has a "psychic" component, which is really more a psychological notion as to religion, i personally believe we just want a meaning into our suffering so that we can pursue it with fervor, losing focus on inherent inadequacies and a sense of uncertainty.

More likely atheism and agnosticism stems from the secularization of the 1st world countries and the increased value we have on science and progress; knowledge... as science begins to deteriorate conceptions of intelligent design, i think it is only natural for the more sensitive and rational people to feel like religion has outlived its uses other than being an opiate.

Still though, i think this world is quite bizarre, no matter how deterministic it may seem, you must still wonder as to underlying purposes. If all objects within this world have natural rules which govern them, and a natural tendency towards states of being (eg. entropy, equilibrium), is it not possible that even sentient beings; even with our conception of free will, have some general purpose? I doubt we will find it in the word of scriptures, but i don't know if it's a question science can answer. For the most part, any identity which asks me to escape rationality in place of faith, is asking me to follow emotions rather than constantly reforming myself to adhere to my rationality, there are too many risks in believing something with faith.

In the end i prefer open mindedness to any religious notions. It makes for better and more meaningful conversations anyways, .

Edited by mysticpsi, 03 May 2008 - 08:43 PM.

[JackCole]

When ever I think of an afterlife, I just choose someone elses.

I just say: "Well, look at the ancient greeks." We call that mythology now, but millions died believing it.

Does that mean it's true? What if one of these expired 'religions' of the past is the truth? I just think of the millions of people who have died going to the death bed with the concious thought that they're going to an afterlife, regarldess of which one. Now, we can argue which one is true, (if there is one) but..

do you get what I'm trying to say? There's been so many versions of an 'after life' - it just doesn't seem logical to me anymore.

[abolitionist]

I don't know why the God meme is associated with blissful experiences.

There's no supreme being causing these experiences or that plans/controls everything and these experiences can be had without believing in anything.

In the states you can get more social acceptance by saying the word God and that you believe in it - but the word has such a vague definition that nobody really knows what anyone is talking about.

That's why we have religion - it's a biological fact that humans tend to have these vague social belief systems to help maintain norms which are genetically predetermined.

Edited by abolitionist, 04 May 2008 - 10:28 PM.

[mentatpsi]

Believing in a benevolent God causes cognitive dissonance - for how can you believe that when there are millions of examples to the contrary and no proof of an afterlife to justify this life.

Everything I see confirms my experience of God - there is no cognitive dissonance. I fully embrace both the rational and non-rational aspects of my being. I see no reason to limit myself and my experience of the Universe.

I can't see how any experience can truly confirm a belief in god. I think Reality can neither prove nor disprove god for the mere sake of us being unable to confirm if reality itself exists and more importantly if there is any metaphysical essence at all. I personally believe our conceptions of a personal universe (e.g God), is just a way to build an emotional connection with a world that would otherwise be regarded as cold and impersonal. Any attempts to really understand a transcendental being would become a reflection of the individual's psyche and follow constraints of a biological being's thought patterns, don't you think?

Edited by mysticpsi, 11 May 2008 - 08:57 AM.

[Ben Simon]

Well... I would classify myself as a Christian. But I neither believe in God or an afterlife. A belief in God would require sufficient knowledge as would define God, which strikes me as futile, and the afterlife is seldom referred to biblically, the notion of Heaven serving the purpose of allegory and metaphor for the lifestyle Jesus (a Jew) advocated, and that would, in subsequent decades, come to be known as the breakaway Jewish sect of Christianity. Similarly the notion of Hell was applied metaphorically to the lifestyle Jesus rejected. In the centuries following Jesus' life, as christianity has evolved, a great many nonbiblical ideas have crept into the culture, most of which would be better off discarded.

I view the human mind's ability to comprehend and utilise science to be a wonderful asset, but ultimately a limited one. Is religion therefore my opiet of choice? Maybe... maybe not. It comforts me to be sure, though only some of the time. But I don't think it encourages me to embrace false truths. I don't, as a christian, lay claim to any knowledge that I would otherwise not possess. My spiritual life is not rooted in belief. It is, rather, rooted in my awareness of my own limitations, of my fragility... and finally of my shortcomings. It is in humility before the limitless unknown, standing on the edge of the abyss and looking into it (as opposed to turning my back), that I find what one may wish to refer to as 'God'. The poetry and story of Jesus' life and teachings as reflected in the gospels stirs my heart in such a way as to powerfully transform and renew me. It reminds me of what is most dear to me, convicting and encouraging me. I wrestle and I struggle with it, even as I look to it for some kind of peace.

But at no point do I endeavour to believe what I rightfully cannot. I hope, and I try to live by that hope. Belief, however, evades me. Life after death? ...It sure seems unlikely, doesn't it?

Edited by ben, 11 May 2008 - 12:42 PM.

[mentatpsi]

Well... I would classify myself as a Christian. But I neither believe in God or an afterlife. A belief in God would require sufficient knowledge as would define God, which strikes me as futile, and the afterlife is seldom referred to biblically, the notion of Heaven serving the purpose of allegory and metaphor for the lifestyle Jesus (a Jew) advocated, and that would, in subsequent decades, come to be known as the breakaway Jewish sect of Christianity. Similarly the notion of Hell was applied metaphorically to the lifestyle Jesus rejected. In the centuries following Jesus' life, as christianity has evolved, a great many nonbiblical ideas have crept into the culture, most of which would be better off discarded.

I view the human mind's ability to comprehend and utilise science to be a wonderful asset, but ultimately a limited one. Is religion therefore my opiet of choice? Maybe... maybe not. It comforts me to be sure, though only some of the time. But I don't think it encourages me to embrace false truths. I don't, as a christian, lay claim to any knowledge that I would otherwise not possess. My spiritual life is not rooted in belief. It is, rather, rooted in my awareness of my own limitations, of my fragility... and finally of my shortcomings. It is in humility before the limitless unknown, standing on the edge of the abyss and looking into it (as opposed to turning my back), that I find what one may wish to refer to as 'God'. The poetry and story of Jesus' life and teachings as reflected in the gospels stirs my heart in such a way as to powerfully transform and renew me. It reminds me of what is most dear to me, convicting and encouraging me. I wrestle and I struggle with it, even as I look to it for some kind of peace.

But at no point do I endeavour to believe what I rightfully cannot. I hope, and I try to live by that hope. Belief, however, evades me. Life after death? ...It sure seems unlikely, doesn't it?

This is the issue, no one is traditionally a true follower of a religion, it is a venture of the self and through it there comes a modification to fit the individual's own psyche. One can believe nothing to its core level because beliefs change, people change, and more importantly diversity exists. Religion has gone through such modifications over the period of secularization that i doubt the original founders of religion would even recognize it. Knowledge has brought it to a metaphoric level. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, of giving the angels residence while allowing the crowds to take his daughters, knowing full well what fate would befall them. A god who would require the capacity to sacrifice your own son to show the strength of your faith. One who tradition honors by the lives he has taken during the 10 plagues of Egypt according to religion. I can even understand when people say the god of the old testament and the new testament seem to be two entirely different entities. It becomes a reflection of collective humanity, changing through the eras.

Christianity brought compassion into the religion, but that was most likely due to the populace who had brought the religion into their hearts, and those were people who could be considered marginalized. Once Christianity gained popularity it was responsible for such blood shed (inquisition, crusades, let's not forget the people killed because of the plague), that it is impossible to recognize any original message. I do not trust the bibles because it is a book of fairy tales, if anyone wrote a book similar today, it would be listed in the fiction (or new age) section without any more thought given to it. Just look at communism; naive people are always exploited.

Can you not see this abyss of your understanding, the void of your awareness that you call god, as a mere filling of a vacuum? Personally though, i value any individual who follows his own mind and heart rather than someone who just follows without question. Given your passages i assume you're one of those people. I do however believe that one can develop nothing but nihilism when it comes to such topics, life provides no real answers and science is by far one of the greatest tools we developed to understanding the mystery of life, but even it has limits.

It is much more interesting to cast a reflection of your own psyche by figuring out where your thoughts come from, rather than to mistake the reflection for truth.

[Ben Simon]

Once Christianity gained popularity it was responsible for such blood shed (inquisition, crusades, let's not forget the people killed because of the plague), that it is impossible to recognize any original message.

You really think so? I don't find it impossible at all. One recognises the original message by reading the original texts, and by studying them in their original context. While I disagree that christianity has caused bloodshed (the idea strikes me as far too simplistic an understanding of how cultures operate - if a civilisation is barbaric it's religion will be largely barbarous - if enlightened so too its religion) the fact that it will often be misrepresented in the pursuit of violence is exactly why the original message is so important. The original message of christianity, which has been preserved in the scriptures, is one of love, equality and social justice. As long as the bible remains the central authority on christian ideology this fact will remain true, and the genuinely faithful will know it. Wars and bigotry happen, and it says something about people that they would take a cultural movement as inherently non violent as christianity and employ it in the pursuit of these ends. But it cannot say anything about the teachings of christianity as presented in the bible, which are what I think is important, and which speak wholly for themselves.

Can you not see this abyss of your understanding, the void of your awareness that you call god, as a mere filling of a vacuum?

I actually don't fill the vacuum. That's what I was trying to say. If I did it wouldn't be an abyss at all. It'd be a nice bunch of unflappable knowledge. So yes, I agree about all the unknowns. Call me a nihilistic Christian if you will. I'm not in it for the answers (as much as they would be nice)... I'm in it for a means (even if it is ultimately only poetic) of grappling with the lack of answers. And, of course, I am influenced by the moral dimension of christian teaching, which actually seems to me to be most of the point.

Edited by ben, 12 May 2008 - 01:27 AM.

[mentatpsi]

You really think so? I don't find it impossible at all. One recognises the original message by reading the original texts, and by studying them in their original context. While I disagree that christianity has caused bloodshed (the idea strikes me as far too simplistic an understanding of how cultures operate - if a civilisation is barbaric it's religion will be largely barbarous - if enlightened so too its religion) the fact that it will often be misrepresented in the pursuit of violence is exactly why the original message is so important. The original message of christianity, which has been preserved in the scriptures, is one of love, equality and social justice. As long as the bible remains the central authority on christian ideology this fact will remain true, and the genuinely faithful will know it. Wars and bigotry happen, and it says something about people that they would take a cultural movement as inherently non violent as christianity and employ it in the pursuit of these ends. But it cannot say anything about the teachings of christianity as presented in the bible, which are what I think is important, and which speak wholly for themselves.

I know where you're coming from and have shared a similar belief at one point, but religion isn't a stable construct, you said it when you stated that the usage of religion is a reflection of the civilization, be it enlightened or barbaric. One cannot separate what something becomes with what it was meant to be, the two exist simultaneously. To isolate religion from what it is capable of doing to people is a way of avoiding the various natures of religion. In the end religion can easily promote a closed-minded perspective of the world through faith. Personally, i think there is more potential in life if one escapes dogma rather than embracing it. To question everything gives rise to liberation, not just on a socio-economic or political level, but on a personal level.

I'll agree that the very foundations of Christianity is peace, love, and justice, but faith is a cohesive of beliefs that can easily blind. One cannot always be loving and peaceful, nor can one always pursue justice because all of these are double-edged swords... one must move with wisdom.

I actually don't fill the vacuum. That's what I was trying to say. If I did it wouldn't be an abyss at all. It'd be a nice bunch of unflappable knowledge. So yes, I agree about all the unknowns. Call me a nihilistic Christian if you will. I'm not in it for the answers (as much as they would be nice)... I'm in it for a means (even if it is ultimately only poetic) of grappling with the lack of answers. And, of course, I am influenced by the moral dimension of christian teaching, which actually seems to me to be most of the point.

Have you taken a look at the Eastern Philosophies? Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, just to name a few you might enjoy.

[Reeve Treaty]

Is this really important enough to make a whole topic over? Seriously people, lets see some real spiritual discussions in the future, okay? Whether the idea of an afterlife is the opiate of the masses or not will not change whether or not there is an afterlife. Lets talk about that please. Without a poll this time, okay?

[Alex Libman]

Religion is the opiate for the masses, but the religion pushed by the originator of this quote is probably the #1 worst religion in human history!

And self-owning adults do have the right to poison their minds with whatever opiates they wish, as long as they don't force it on others.

Also, I've met a lot of highly religious people who were otherwise much more rational in all other aspects of their lives than all of the socialist atheists I've ever met!

[forever freedom]

Also, I've met a lot of highly religious people who were otherwise much more rational in all other aspects of their lives than all of the socialist atheists I've ever met!

Amen to that. Some people pride themselves in being supremely rational and basing their beliefs in nothing but evidence yet can't handle reality in their day to day lives.

[chris w]

Also, I've met a lot of highly religious people who were otherwise much more rational in all other aspects of their lives than all of the socialist atheists I've ever met!

Amen to that. Some people pride themselves in being supremely rational and basing their beliefs in nothing but evidence yet can't handle reality in their day to day lives.

Perhaps being supremely rational is one of the reasons they cannot handle day to day reality, try being an opium addict and then stopping it - reality makes you wanna go back there sometimes.

Edited by chris w, 18 April 2010 - 03:26 PM.

[Alex Libman]

Being "supremely rational" is not the problem, the problem comes from many people (including some very gullible ones) replacing the religion that survived thousands of years of sociocultural evolution with a new belief system that may still have plenty of gaps in it. The "fear of death" issue is one of them, and the potential of immortality through science (which likely will still be out of reach when they'll need it) could even do more harm than good (i.e. "false hope"). Atheists are more prone to depression, procrastination / work avoidance / socialism, addiction, unsafe sex, and other self-destructive behavior. The biggest general drawback of modern atheist cultures seems to be very low fertility rates, and that can have very dangerous consequences for society as a whole.