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Religion and Society


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37 replies to this topic

Poll: Religion: Opiate for the masses? (49 member(s) have cast votes)

"Is religion the opiate for the masses?"

  1. Yes. (37 votes [75.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.51%

  2. No. (12 votes [24.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.49%

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#31 thughes

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 06:09 PM

Being "supremely rational" is not the problem, the problem comes from many people (including some very gullible ones) replacing the religion that survived thousands of years of sociocultural evolution with a new belief system that may still have plenty of gaps in it. The "fear of death" issue is one of them, and the potential of immortality through science (which likely will still be out of reach when they'll need it) could even do more harm than good (i.e. "false hope"). Atheists are more prone to depression, procrastination / work avoidance / socialism, addiction, unsafe sex, and other self-destructive behavior. The biggest general drawback of modern atheist cultures seems to be very low fertility rates, and that can have very dangerous consequences for society as a whole.


Abandonment of the religion(s) that survived thousands of years of sociocultural evolution likely involved its (their) severe drawbacks, especially for certain (in some cases large) marginalized groups. Evolution may tend towards stable solutions, but doesn't always tend towards optimal solutions. (Plus, I'm sure it has a lot to do with the huge advances in human knowledge. The simple solutions we were stuck with thousands of years ago no longer suffice for everyone.) I see no worth in going backwards here, even if there is a certain cost to moving forwards. Plus, we really don't need the religions of our ancestors dividing us as they now do, the cost to society of that will only increase, given the reaches of modern technology. The cost of that probably far outweighs any transient cost to adapting to life with less religion.

In the end, religious bred resistance to biological life extension will kill. Its that simple. The virus is becoming fatal.

Very low fertility rates are certainly a drawback of modern advanced cultures, I doubt there's a solid link with atheism though. I suspect its more of a (loose) link with prosperity and health. There's no longer a huge driving need to have many children so some survive to care for you in old age.

In the short term, its a problem for sure. But its not a problem society is incapable of dealing with. Plus, this will eventually be a very very big advantage, not a drawback. Biological immortality may not come in our lifetimes, but it will come.

As to self destructive behaviour, I can see how removing the easy solutions of our ancestors could cause more existential angst... but those solutions come at such a high cost I'd rather see society work through that. Besides, you really have to weigh the costs on both sides. People have made a good case for the less religious societies in Europe having lower crime rates, lower teenage pregnancy rates, etc. Atheists divorce far less than members of certain large common religious groups, etc. So there are clear benefits to go along with the costs.

- Tracy

#32 Dorho

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 06:15 PM

Being "supremely rational" is not the problem, the problem comes from many people (including some very gullible ones) replacing the religion that survived thousands of years of sociocultural evolution with a new belief system that may still have plenty of gaps in it. The "fear of death" issue is one of them, and the potential of immortality through science (which likely will still be out of reach when they'll need it) could even do more harm than good (i.e. "false hope"). Atheists are more prone to depression, procrastination / work avoidance / socialism, addiction, unsafe sex, and other self-destructive behavior. The biggest general drawback of modern atheist cultures seems to be very low fertility rates, and that can have very dangerous consequences for society as a whole.

Atheists may not be the most rational of people. I would say the most rational people are highly immune to the crippling effects of their emotions, and thus stable, plus their lifestyle choices usually promote mental health. When one sees the power in pursuing truth, the meaning of life can be easily derived from the pursuit, as is the case for myself. I'm an agnostic, which is the polar opposite of religiousness, not atheism as is usually promoted.

Low fertility rate is the only socially acceptable way to save the world from overpopulation, socialism is the only way to effectively secure the wellbeing of poor people (remember the statistics on homeless peple in US?).

As for 'self-destructive behavior' and beliefs, religiousness correlates with high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide:
http://www.timesonli...ticle571206.ece

#33 Alex Libman

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:41 PM

Interesting post, Thughes. I don't really have anything articular to add or contradict at this time, except the points I'll also make in replying to Dorho below.


I would say the most rational people are highly immune to the crippling effects of their emotions, and thus stable, plus their lifestyle choices usually promote mental health.


I've known a lot of very rational people who also had substantial emotional issues. It almost seems as if the two might correlate... (I'm not claiming that as fact, just my possibly-coincidental observation.)


I'm an agnostic, which is the polar opposite of religiousness, not atheism as is usually promoted.


(See my post on thread.)


Low fertility rate is the only socially acceptable way to save the world from overpopulation, socialism is the only way to effectively secure the wellbeing of poor people (remember the statistics on homeless peple in US?).


That's very short-term-oriented and economically inaccurate thinking. The human population will peak around the 2040s (and the projections for this point in time keep being revised to be sooner rather than later) and then begin its decline, with no known mechanisms short of downright government-dictated fascism that will be able to bring the fertility rates back up again. Very low fertility among the highest-educated populations also exacerbates the dysgenic effect of some backward people still having a dozen kids (with infant mortality rates now being next to zero due to the trickle-down benefits from the first world, with technology spreading faster than cultural values).

An aging and shrinking society is a much worse catastrophe than we can presently imagine. This phenomenon is being downplayed in explaining Japan's dismal economic performance over the past ~15 years, but it is a very large factor, in spite of Japan merely importing the needed labor from other countries (more through outsourcing and importation of goods than immigration). When all of Earth will have this problem, there won't be another planet filled with people who can buy our goods / services and replenish our labor force.

An aging society means high cost of labor (and thus a higher cost of food and other goods), ever-higher taxes on an ever-shrinking work-force, less innovation (older workers don't pick up new ideas as quickly), and countless other disadvantages, including possible conflicts between "younger" countries like in Africa / South Asia and "older" countries like in Europe / East Asia. There are also political implications as well - a society that has higher fertility rates will have stronger family and other voluntary institutions, and thus less need for the welfare state, which in spite of all its intentions can bring economic growth to a screeching halt.

It might not seem like a terrible crisis, because technology will continue to advance somewhat and per-worker productivity will continue to increase, but it would be a huge net loss of potential nonetheless. A hypothetical divergence between 3% total global economic growth and 5% over several decades is a huge difference that can be the deciding factor between many wonderful technologies being invented and not being invented in time to benefit and extend your lifespan. In order there to be a scientist to cure your cancer when you're 80, to perform a full digestive system replacement when you're 120, and to preserve your brain when you're 200, etc that scientist first needs to be born, and the same applies to the millions of supporting jobs in the economy that are necessary for that scientist to operate.


As for 'self-destructive behavior' and beliefs, religiousness correlates with high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide:
http://www.timesonli...ticle571206.ece


I think this simply compares U.S. to Western Europe, which isn't a meaningful comparison for dozens of reasons I've already listed on other threads, with the main reason actually being a negative side-effect of the generally beneficial statistic I talked about in the previous paragraphs - America's higher fertility rates. Isn't it obvious, for example, that a country with more young people will also have more abortions?

America and Europe are also a result of hundreds of years of natural selection: the most aggressive Europeans were the ones who sailed for the New World. Then you have issues like America's remaining racial problems, militarism, population density differences, etc, etc, etc...

And finally you have the issue of freedom - Europe used more government force to brainwash its population out of the old religion and into the new one than America has, but is that really a good thing?

Edited by Alex Libman, 19 April 2010 - 08:55 PM.


#34 Dorho

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 05:44 PM

I would say the most rational people are highly immune to the crippling effects of their emotions, and thus stable, plus their lifestyle choices usually promote mental health.


I've known a lot of very rational people who also had substantial emotional issues. It almost seems as if the two might correlate... (I'm not claiming that as fact, just my possibly-coincidental observation.)

Perhaps emotional burden for some rational people might arise from the disrespect they get? Time after time, I see irrational people acting like, well, bloody irrationally, only to be forgiven shortly afterwards. Good examples would be the pedofilia scandal in catholic church and the recent sex scandal in the French soccer team. If scientists would get caught doing similar evil, there would be years and years of brimstone raining on top of them, because people subconsciously identify themselves as irrational and are able to relate to the starting points of other irrationals.


An aging and shrinking society is a much worse catastrophe than we can presently imagine.
<snip>

I really don't see a major problem in aging socities IF the medical establishment would promote preventative health care. Prolonged health spans are in many ways a positive change, even for the economy.


As for 'self-destructive behavior' and beliefs, religiousness correlates with high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide:
http://www.timesonli...ticle571206.ece


I think this simply compares U.S. to Western Europe, which isn't a meaningful comparison for dozens of reasons I've already listed on other threads, with the main reason actually being a negative side-effect of the generally beneficial statistic I talked about in the previous paragraphs - America's higher fertility rates. Isn't it obvious, for example, that a country with more young people will also have more abortions?

I think the abortion rates etc. are adjusted for demographic characteristics. If not, it's sloppy science.

Religious societies are in many ways focused on reproduction, which can be interpreted as part of the 'survival strategy' of the meme complex that is religion. Abortions and sexual promiscuity may be direct results of that focus. One other issue which I already touched is the all-forgiving attitude of religious people. It's particularly saddening to see many American women respecting religious murderers more than non-religious law obiding citizens (as seen on TV). Religious or not, some women seem to be attracted to evil pigs by their nature, but at least Western Europeans don't take the religiousness excuse as seriously as you do.

ADDITION: As much as there is scientific and technical knowledge in the US, many of the common Americans seem to display hostility towards the scientific principle. Being a foreign man, I may notice things you have grown blind to, or alternatively I'm just arrogant, but I really think that the way common Americans see some fundamental concepts of reality is totally f'ed up in the USA. As an example, there's the issue of 'scientific' creationism. People in the US just say casually "evolution or creation, it's a matter of faith", without really thinking what the differences in the acquiry of information are between the two systems that they represent. The relative approach you take to truth seeking has really gained lift from the evolution vs. creation controversy and it has spread to other places, such as crazy conspiracy theories, the rhethorics of men such as Glenn Beck, and even some of your News broadcasters. It's already gone past the point of being potentially dangerous, and for that I'm a bit worried.

Edited by Dorho, 20 April 2010 - 07:50 PM.


#35 thughes

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 06:31 PM

The human population will peak around the 2040s (and the projections for this point in time keep being revised to be sooner rather than later) and then begin its decline, with no known mechanisms short of downright government-dictated fascism that will be able to bring the fertility rates back up again


First, all the better reason to get working on healthy life extension, which will at least delay this issue, giving us time for more healthy life extension which will delay it further. The whole escape velocity reasoning works economically as well as medically.

Second, I can envision mechanisms besides fascism that can help with the birth rate, so I challenge your "no known mechanisms".

For example, I suspect, but cannot prove, that people want to have more kids, but there is a time and money issue here. Governments can choose to support parents (should this be necessary for the economic survival of the country) through things like more tax breaks for parents, more legal protection for maternity leave, longer maternity leave, subsidized daycare, etc. (I do realize that longer maternity leave has not been a very successful solution, since its been attempted, but its only one part of the problem of the cost of having kids...). Extended healthy lifespan also will help the issue, not just through delayed senescence, but through making the career cost of having young children (for at least half the population) not as extreme. A 10 year delay to have a couple kids and stay home while they are not school age isn't as bad if you have 30 more productive working years than you used to. This may help women to choose to have children earlier, when they are more fertile.

Another drawback to having kids is the physical cost to the woman. Some clever person (I forget who) once suggested developing the technology to incubate in cows. I like that idea..! At any rate, greater medical advances to make childbirth less debilitating and reduce the risk of long term effects would be worthwhile to increasing voluntary childbirth.

Yet another medical advance that would help: any improvements in safe fertility (by safe I mean, with ways to prevent the greater incidence of certain genetic conditions) for older women and men, who have more time and money to have kids.

There are things to try to fix the problem before we achieve long term life extension (at which point it becomes moot). No point predicting doom yet.

Very low fertility among the highest-educated populations also exacerbates the dysgenic effect of some backward people still having a dozen kid


True, but if you view evolution as at the gene level rather than at the individual level, its no longer so frightening. Those people still carry many of your genes. Plus, the reasons for people being backwards are often cultural, not genetic. This can be overcome.

a society that has higher fertility rates will have stronger family and other voluntary institutions, and thus less need for the welfare state


Haven't seen this born out in practice. Right now higher fertility rates generally relate to poorer countries, so I suspect the lack of a social safety net is more cash related. Higher fertility rates in the States seems to relate to immigration, and is likely not linked to your smaller (compared to Europe) social safety net. Just a guess here.

It might not seem like a terrible crisis, because technology will continue to advance somewhat and per-worker productivity will continue to increase, but it would be a huge net loss of potential nonetheless.


Do you have a solution that does not involve oppressing half your population? I honestly don't think we deserve to survive as a society if this is what we have to do.

And yes, strictly depending on the timing involved, we could get ourselves into a real problem here if the easy ways to encourage childbirth do not outpace the decline, and extreme life extension does not come fast enough. So I see the fear of fascism. But religious oppression is just another form of fascism so uh... six of one, you know. Might as well have the government do it if someone has to, it has less chance of sticking around past its "best before" date. Besides, religion generally fails at overcoming the effects of prosperity in producing more children, so its not even that simple. Birth rates in some heavily Catholic countries are low. Not as low as Japan, but low.

If necessary we could all *pay* women to have children I guess. Really extreme there, so we'd have to be truly desperate, but beats forcing them by an order of magnitude.

Isn't it obvious, for example, that a country with more young people will also have more abortions?


Not if the comparisons are per capita, which they usually are. For example, you can see a *per capita* chart of teenage birth rates here:

http://en.wikipedia...._Chart_2006.jpg

Source is: United Nations Demographic Yearbooks

Same idea for crime. The relevant comparisons are per capita.

However, I buy the Freakonomics hypothesis that unwanted children lead to greater crime rates (by said unwanted children), so crime in comparison to other Western nations may be partially due to cultural acceptance of abortion, which is less in the States.

And finally you have the issue of freedom - Europe used more government force to brainwash its population out of the old religion and into the new one than America has, but is that really a good thing?


I think all the religious nuts sailed over here, so I'm not sure brainwashing was even necessary =) Aside from the formerly Soviet states, I'm not sure much brainwashing was going on over there. Plus, the religions over there are very old (with a few exceptions like Wicca). New religions is more of a new world phenomenon: Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventists, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses... they are all American, right?

- Tracy

#36 Alex Libman

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 03:31 AM

Perhaps emotional burden for some rational people might arise from the disrespect they get?


Could be - and that especially applies to my standards of rationality, which also involve political atheism (libertarianism), economic atheism (free market capitalism), and cultural atheism (individualism), in addition to atheism in the field of religion.


I really don't see a major problem in aging socities IF the medical establishment would promote preventative health care. Prolonged health spans are in many ways a positive change, even for the economy.


You should do more research on this issue - it is far more serious a pending crisis than the bogus hype over "global warming" or "peak oil"! Low fertility rates might actually translate to shorter life expectancy as economic growth decelerates, taxes and prices skyrocket, and health care has to be rationed very strictly by a corrupt government-controlled bureaucracy that is anything but meritocratic.


One other issue which I already touched is the all-forgiving attitude of religious people.


That only applies to some flavors of Christianity, Buddhism, and possibly Hinduism (not sure about the last). Some sects of Protestantism, Judaism, and Islam aren't like that.


As much as there is scientific and technical knowledge in the US, many of the common Americans seem to display hostility towards the scientific principle.


The theory of evolution and science in general does not require anybody's approval, and people do have a Right to optimize their lives for their personal happiness, even if it involves some fairy tales that have been the foundation of their family's culture for thousands of years.

I've known a lot of religious people here in America (I've "studied" with Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, and the religion of my ancestors, Judaism, mostly because my mother wanted someone to socialize with and learn English from after we moved to the isolation of suburban America and those religious people came a-knockin'), and they were all very good people. Sure, religion was a major factor in almost everything they did, but I found them to be very intelligent in their home economics (which can be quite difficult when you have a large family), businesses, careers, etc. One of the best programmers I've worked with was an Orthodox Jew. Many of the world's greatest scientists (and I do mean hard sciences, like physics) were very religious. Etc. The point is that religion can be more of an asset than a liability to a lot of people, and no one can choose what makes an individual happy except that individual himself.

#37 Cameron

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 06:12 AM

Being "supremely rational" is not the problem, the problem comes from many people (including some very gullible ones) replacing the religion that survived thousands of years of sociocultural evolution with a new belief system that may still have plenty of gaps in it. The "fear of death" issue is one of them, and the potential of immortality through science (which likely will still be out of reach when they'll need it) could even do more harm than good (i.e. "false hope"). Atheists are more prone to depression, procrastination / work avoidance / socialism, addiction, unsafe sex, and other self-destructive behavior. The biggest general drawback of modern atheist cultures seems to be very low fertility rates, and that can have very dangerous consequences for society as a whole.


To be honest low reproduction is only worrisome if progress on artificial minds is greatly delayed or halts. If artificial minds that surpass human capacity do come into existence in a few decades, I doubt they'll hold on to primitive superstitions. These free thinking minds are likely to drastically out-compete even the most vigorously reproducing believers in terms of reproductive capacity. In the end this extreme reproductive capacity will ensure that the largest population of conscious entities becomes non-bio-human in a short period of time.

#38 the_colossus

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:12 PM

I've known a lot of religious people here in America (I've "studied" with Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, and the religion of my ancestors, Judaism, mostly because my mother wanted someone to socialize with and learn English from after we moved to the isolation of suburban America and those religious people came a-knockin'), and they were all very good people. Sure, religion was a major factor in almost everything they did, but I found them to be very intelligent in their home economics (which can be quite difficult when you have a large family), businesses, careers, etc. One of the best programmers I've worked with was an Orthodox Jew. Many of the world's greatest scientists (and I do mean hard sciences, like physics) were very religious. Etc. The point is that religion can be more of an asset than a liability to a lot of people, and no one can choose what makes an individual happy except that individual himself.


Good point.

Do you think it was the values of their religions that governed them or they chose their religion because the values agreed with them?

Does an individual choose what makes them happy or do they natural have certain things that do and they try to find out what those are?




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