58 replies to this topic

[VictorBjoerk]

Like Leonard Hayflick

One may wonder why

[Heliotrope]

Like Leonard Hayflick

One may wonder why

And Like Leon Kass, President's Council on Bio ethics something or other..


I wonder why! Did Bush tell him we shoulder lower the populatin and save social security money???!

[PWAIN]

We have not seen great strides in (strong) AI in the past five decades, so what is the source of your optimism?

I was thinking along the same lines as you about AI. it seems to be a technology we are just not ready to produce. Lots of promises but no delivery.

Then I found out about Blue Brain. I now believe that we may see an artificial brain with human level abilities within about 20 years. After that, massive acceleration.

[Ben Simon]

Similar things can happen when you speak about immortality to others.They turn it into a laughing matter although they may fear aging themselves.

come on , fear of aging is a fear of death! fear of death is a fear of oblivion . fear of oblivion is a fear of nonexistance.


Fear of aging = fear of nonexistance


MAY WELL BE THAT THEY ALL FEAR AGING, even the fundies. makes me wonder though, don't ya think the vast majority of ppl on earth, who by the way are religious folks, have gotten some secret information over us? Maybe most of the crowd got it, that in fact that we need to accept god or his son in order to have good life after we all die.

Ya think 99.9999% of PEOPLE know something that we don't? Who knows?? maybe that's the only way to eternal life? you know what they say , "there re plenty of mansions in my Father's house " so We can all fit in! they don't run out of room there. "no one comes to my father /heaven but through me" yada yada blah blah blah. the only way, the oNLY Way. . .

i mean who doesn't want to keep on existing? who'd like oblivion and be perished forever? who likes to be thrown into lakes of fire? Maybe they REALLY KNOW the truth . LOL they'll probably be up there laughing down on us poor lost souls trying to do the impossible :(


:(



excuse the lang, but they Know we're fucked , dont they? That may be why the fundies try to convert us , bring the prodigal son back to the father

...I have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Edited by ben, 13 May 2008 - 01:20 AM.

[VictorBjoerk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Kass

I actually feel scared of this man.He is dangerous to humanity....

[forever freedom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Kass

I actually feel scared of this man.He is dangerous to humanity....

Yea. This guy needs to retire from every activity that influences people. Since he values death so much, isn't he already old enough to throw the towel?

[Heliotrope]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Kass

I actually feel scared of this man.He is dangerous to humanity....

Yea. This guy needs to retire from every activity that influences people. Since he values death so much, isn't he already old enough to throw the towel?

he scares me too. . . very scared of his views and policies

[renton]

I think the biggest reason people fear transhumanist ideas is simply because it all seems incredibly foreign to their experience. I have a friend that openly hates transhumanist ideas - he thinks the notion of using technology and innovation to solve some problems we have is perverse and narcissistic and we should be focusing on using "people-centred" solutions to solve our problems.

He's right in the sense we can't use technology to solve every problem we have when it comes to human aging and health, but the notion of, say, nanotechnology or life extension methodologies really scares him (there's a certain irony in that this guy is also a bit of an international development ideologue and thinks developing robotics to help humanity extend life is wrong, when international development involves deployment of life-extending generic antiretrovirals as just one example, but I digress).

Other thing: I'll say the media has done a great job at putting people into thinking anything that transcends our biology as bad. Consider movies like The Matrix or The Terminator. Fear is a powerful weapon to use against the public to keep order. If you scare people enough into thinking nanotechnology = grey goo, or cryonics = B.S. quackery, you limit the terms of the debate to very binary positions. On one hand, you have "US" (the normal job-commuting, pill-popping conventional majority) and the "OTHER" (the visionary, possibly insane zealots who talk about transhumanism in the minority). It's really very easy to keep people ignorant of a situation if you make the debate polarized and inflexible. American politics and media does this all the time.

Bottom line: some people are scared of change. Some people think change involves bad things happening. That may be true sometimes, but informing yourself about a topic is the best antidote to reactionary nonsense.

[Nihilated]

Why don't you tell your friend to go join the Amish society instead? There, he won't find any technology.

[Ben Simon]

Nice one Rents,

Did you tell him that in a thousand years, there will be no men and women, just wankers, and that's fine by you?

No but seriously, good post. Fear mongering is an interesting thing. In terms of film it makes perfect sense of course. Who wants to watch a movie where the future is the blissful and we live in harmony with the t-1000?

Not me. But it still obviously has an impact on the public consciousness.

PS. If in fact your screen name has nothing to do with the movie Trainspotting then my opening question to you will make no sense whatsoever.

Edited by ben, 15 May 2008 - 12:40 AM.

[abolitionist]

the mind has a powerful rationalization mechanism - and we become addicted to the memes created through rationalization

speaking in neurological terms, rationalization may best be described as the spindle neurons resolving cognitive dissonance... just a thought

-------

when the technologies are in front of their ape faces humans will gobble them up, we just need to get the research done and ensure political support

fuck the stupid masses - if they are so stupid maybe they aren't worth saving

[VictorBjoerk]

I like Aubrey De Grey's description of a pro-aging trance....

[renton]

Why don't you tell your friend to go join the Amish society instead? There, he won't find any technology.

Hey Nihilated,

It's funny, this guy uses MSN, email, web sites, digital recorders and lots of consumer technology very readily. Strangely though, he's very anti-Facebook, anti-social media, anti-online shopping, and obviously anti-transhumanism. I don't know, he's very complicated...

[renton]

Nice one Rents,

Did you tell him that in a thousand years, there will be no men and women, just wankers, and that's fine by you?

No but seriously, good post. Fear mongering is an interesting thing. In terms of film it makes perfect sense of course. Who wants to watch a movie where the future is the blissful and we live in harmony with the t-1000?

Not me. But it still obviously has an impact on the public consciousness.

PS. If in fact your screen name has nothing to do with the movie Trainspotting then my opening question to you will make no sense whatsoever.

Ben,

Oh, my name is all about Trainspotting.

My feeling on this is that once robotics as a consumer technology enters the mainstream (albeit gradually, given how paranoid the average "man-ape" is about anything outside their daily experience), it will start to become easier for people to accept bigger changes in terms of transhumanist tech.

[Nihilated]

Why don't you tell your friend to go join the Amish society instead? There, he won't find any technology.

Hey Nihilated,

It's funny, this guy uses MSN, email, web sites, digital recorders and lots of consumer technology very readily. Strangely though, he's very anti-Facebook, anti-social media, anti-online shopping, and obviously anti-transhumanism. I don't know, he's very complicated...

I have friends like this too. I would call it an identity-crisis.

[affinity]

There is a time and a place and a way for informing and teaching someone. People mature through life with different experiences. You're probably not going to have an effect on them unless you know them intimately.

[Nihilated]

There should be a huge database of FAQ to answer their questions.

[tous]

I think most people distrust of this type of idea steps from the train of thought that you can separate a person from his or her body without destroying it/just making a copy.

There is something almost religious about the belief that you can separate a person from their body/brain. That you could extract their being/mind/errrr I dont wanna say it... the S word.... ryhmes with mole. In this way I think the people who are the most apposed to this type of belief are those most grounded in the present, and very probably those most fundamentally apposed to religion.

In addition, the human mind is one of the most complex and least understood things in the universe today. Technological singularity would require a complete 100% understanding of the brain down to the most minute detail. To assume that something like this is a distinct possibility, especially in our lifetimes, to the point where you would ridicule those who don't follow the same train of thought as you, using a word like ignorant, which would imply a lack of knowledge and understanding of reality, when the very thing your defending is only a possibility at best is in most peoples view a wild leap of faith with no grounding in reality.

People always talk about the technological progress we have made in the last 100 years... what do we really have? A slightly better understanding of the universe? a sufficient understand to harness various basic forms of energy like sound, light and electricity? 20 years from now we may just be ending our major use of fossil fuels(in developed countries), 20 years from now we may have some basic bionic linked to the brain emerging, such as bionic limbs that can be clumsily controlled by the brain, maby(but im doubtfull) bionic eyes/ears OR alternativley toward the end of the 20 years start to see wide spread lab grown organs being transplanted into people who loose/detroy body parts, 20 years from now the worlds space programs will come back into swing(revig down atm) and we may see colonies on the moon, or possibley mars.... etc etc These are my opinions, only 20 years time will tell us one way or the other. But I'll bet you a nickel Lets meet back here in 20 years to see(yes we will still have websites in 20 years Im sure of it!)

[forever freedom]

I think most people distrust of this type of idea steps from the train of thought that you can separate a person from his or her body without destroying it/just making a copy.

There is something almost religious about the belief that you can separate a person from their body/brain. That you could extract their being/mind/errrr I dont wanna say it... the S word.... ryhmes with mole. In this way I think the people who are the most apposed to this type of belief are those most grounded in the present, and very probably those most fundamentally apposed to religion.

In addition, the human mind is one of the most complex and least understood things in the universe today. Technological singularity would require a complete 100% understanding of the brain down to the most minute detail. To assume that something like this is a distinct possibility, especially in our lifetimes, to the point where you would ridicule those who don't follow the same train of thought as you, using a word like ignorant, which would imply a lack of knowledge and understanding of reality, when the very thing your defending is only a possibility at best is in most peoples view a wild leap of faith with no grounding in reality.

People always talk about the technological progress we have made in the last 100 years... what do we really have? A slightly better understanding of the universe? a sufficient understand to harness various basic forms of energy like sound, light and electricity? 20 years from now we may just be ending our major use of fossil fuels(in developed countries), 20 years from now we may have some basic bionic linked to the brain emerging, such as bionic limbs that can be clumsily controlled by the brain, maby(but im doubtfull) bionic eyes/ears OR alternativley toward the end of the 20 years start to see wide spread lab grown organs being transplanted into people who loose/detroy body parts, 20 years from now the worlds space programs will come back into swing(revig down atm) and we may see colonies on the moon, or possibley mars.... etc etc These are my opinions, only 20 years time will tell us one way or the other. But I'll bet you a nickel Lets meet back here in 20 years to see(yes we will still have websites in 20 years Im sure of it!)

You may not have studied history very well... you really think that we didn't advance much technologically from 100 ago until now?

My view is completely different from yours. If we advance as much in 100 years as we advanced in the last 100 years, god, that will be an incredible ride.
And that's not even considering the law of accelerating returns -the more we advance, the faster we advance; it is exponential not linear-.

[bacopa]

On the topic of trying to explain the Singularity why don't you just show your prof's Kurzweil's book on the Singularity? He's a reputable scientist who many many people believe in. Plus I think you should take some of the suggestions from your imminst peers on how to better word it. Let's put it this way if humans believe and want to believe that they have been abducted by aliens, and a huge percentage believe that aliens may have vistited, than why wouldn't people believe in the Singularity? People may be terribly ignorant in some ways, and believe you me it frustrates me to no end, but people are also incredibly open minded to amazing things such as the Singularity. You just have to engage them and make them interested than they may start believing you.

[bacopa]

On the topic of ignorance I also have a friend who is incredibly religious. Whenever I try talking about my Transhumanist ideas she shuts down. It pisses me off that she accepts crazy ideas of an imaginary God that will take away all her troubles when she doesn't even believe in science the very thing that is probably saving her life right now! Also she rejects space exploration as science fiction and thinks that there are no alien life forms out there. She is so ego centric I want to punch her in the face literally. Tell me how do you get through to these people? I mean she's intimate enough with me as a friend that I think if anyone could get through to her I should. What should I say? Is it futile? Also how do we ween people slowly off of religion? I think religion is one of the leading causes of regression in this world.

Do we preach to them our imminst goals and beliefs? Or do we let these knuckleheads find out for themselves? Sometimes I dream of yelling at people listen! There is no God! It's all in your head! I mean isn't it obvious with all the progress we've made in science and understanding of the universe especially pertaining to evolution that there absolutely can't be a God? I mean we share 98% of our DNA with monkeys so we are practically monkeys ourselves. But no self respecting Christian would believe that monkeys go to monkey heaven! Sometimes I get so angry at people's ignorance that I want to scream or take some action. It must be part of our human DNA to become so stubborn and set in our ways like stupid children.

[Healthy Skeptic]

I don't think the general populace is hostile to immortalism or transhumanism specifically, just radical changes in technology and lifestyle in general. If you told a lay person in the nineteenth century that his descendants would travel in crowded metal cylinders flying miles above the ground I doubt they would have been too thrilled.

You just have to break down the promises of LE and transhumanism into bite sized pieces and people will accept it. Ask them if they would like to live another 15 years, or remain healthy enough to retain their independence until they are near death instead of spending their twilight years hobbling around in an assisted living home. Or a big one: look younger longer. You probably can't sell someone on cyborg bodies or the singularity, but you can give them a little nudge that makes them think about how long they want to live and the quality of life they want to have.

Edited by Healthy Skeptic, 06 October 2008 - 05:43 AM.

[RighteousReason]

I think most people distrust of this type of idea steps from the train of thought that you can separate a person from his or her body without destroying it/just making a copy.

See this.

There are a lot of dopes out there. 50% of people have a two-digit IQ.

that's a very good point.

[RighteousReason]

Whenever I try to explain the technological singularity and its possible scenarios to people on other forums, they usually turn it into a laughing matter. Most common responses are:

1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
3. A computer can't feel emotions.
4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!

What do you think will happen in the next 2 decades, do you think they will even care? Sometimes it feels lonely to be a transhumanist...

Well I will give you my answers, maybe it will give you some ideas, although I am also perplexed on how to persuade people.


1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
A: So you don't get killed when you are 80~ and still want to live.

You are a machine already

[tous]

I was referring more so to uploading and things of that nature, rather then replacing your brain with artificial neurons, which would in no way seperate the body from the mind.

In regards to that comment though, I do not see how replacing all the neurons in your brain makes it digital in any way.... artificial yes, but how is it digital? You just have a brain that is not made of biological components(a reasonable proposal though, a good idea for treating very neural dissorters, ranging from brain damage to tumors).

Also to make artificial neurons that could connect up/substitute for the biological neurons they would have to be fundamentally similar to the biological neurons their replacing, ei carbon based, same physical, chemical, and electrical makeup. Therefore wouldn't they have the same inherent problems and break down in a similar faction and require constant replacement? All material breaks down over time, admittedly some more then others.

Back toward the topic tho, I am a believer in technological singularity, and other types of singularities for that matter, I just don't think we are going to get the same things out of it as many here believe(assuming humanity could even survive a singularity growth period), Additionally I don't think the tipping point will be in any of our lifetimes, unless we find some way to expand our life a fair bit first without the assistance of a singularity growth period.

[immortallight]

There is no good answer to why people are so ignorant.Many are borned that way,and the rest is just plain lazy to take the pains to research and find out things about the subject ,because the easiest way in their mind is to just into the wrong conclusion about it. The leaders in this world are the culprits who will do anything they can to keep the masses ignorant and misguided and under control by them. Low intelligent and people with stupidity mentality!,you find them everywhere especially in forums.They misunderstand what they see,read and jump to the wrong conclusion immediately. An example is this threat of censureship that is being imposed by an immatured domineering little forum dictator.


POSTED UNDER THE THREAT OF CENSURESHIP!
by six6

[brokenportal]

One of the problems I think, is that it can be hard for us to escape our inside points of reference, even if we try. We know that we are in a grass roots, working to bring this idea fully to life type of position, but they all dont know that.

and so, one key to escaping the typical responses you site, is to go into the discussion by hyping up the substance that is already there in the life extension cause, but not in an informational type, "Im telling you this" tone, but in more of a "ya of course this is all happening, as I assume you know" type of tone. It makes them feel like, you know, its psycological, it will make them feel like maybe they should know about that, and you wont have to fight from a secular person point it out position, youll be able to explain it from a broad foundation that you have just caused them to assume is true position.

I dont know how to explain this exactly, but I think you know what I mean. This kind of technique and a lot of others have been working for me.

[RighteousReason]

I was referring more so to uploading and things of that nature, rather then replacing your brain with artificial neurons, which would in no way seperate the body from the mind.

In regards to that comment though, I do not see how replacing all the neurons in your brain makes it digital in any way.... artificial yes, but how is it digital? You just have a brain that is not made of biological components(a reasonable proposal though, a good idea for treating very neural dissorters, ranging from brain damage to tumors).

Also to make artificial neurons that could connect up/substitute for the biological neurons they would have to be fundamentally similar to the biological neurons their replacing, ei carbon based, same physical, chemical, and electrical makeup. Therefore wouldn't they have the same inherent problems and break down in a similar faction and require constant replacement? All material breaks down over time, admittedly some more then others.

Well, once you have all that stuff replaced with artificial components, you could stick a wireless reciever in your head and just run everything from a giant remote server somewhere.

I don't know if you have ever used something like SSH, but basically its like opening a command prompt on your home computer from a remote computer. You can use that remote shell to interface with your home operating system, but you can export whatever code you are running to a remote location.

Though I do agree with your basic point that this kind of stuff is too shocking to approach rationally for most people.

See Future Shock Levels.

Edited by Savage, 08 October 2008 - 01:29 PM.

[abolitionist]

knowledge is pain and ignorance is bliss

we aren't motivated to obtain truth but instead to evolve in order to dominate subjective context

the inherent context is determined almost wholely by our genes

ants have a completely different context and different truths