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Do you think he's telling the truth about praying to God?


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#61 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:38 AM

Yeah, I know about preference utilitarianism. In fact I shared a faculty with Singer at one time, though we rarely crossed paths. I happen to disagree with the philosophy (I think it's logically flawed), but this is not really the point. If in fact you are attempting to assert the utilitarian viewpoint, I think you do so in a way which makes baseness of the philosophy. This of course is a criticism that people often enough level against utilitarians, but one that I tend to think of as being unfair.

Perhaps I too am being unfair, but I took the meaning of your comments to be that what is moral is derived from what people want, as opposed to their actual preferences. Preferences in my opinion are different from wants, if only subtly so. We might say that a persons preferences are what they need. A person may have contradictory wants, but they will presumably not have contradictory preferences.


Preferences may not be exactly equivalent to wants but they are, at least, based on wants. The fact that we get so little of what we want proves that God fails by preference utilitarian standards.

Besides, though you may be a preference utilitarian, I fail once again to see why this would mean God ought to be as well. In fact preference utilitarianism runs wholly against the grain of the idea of God doesn't it? God's morality would seem to be the objective standard... preference utilitarianism deals in subjective ends. All the same, I would still wish to assert that God would (if he exists) know our true preferences better than we would.


Athough preference utilitarianism is based on subjective preferences, I do see it as an objectively true philosophy. If you (or God) would like to try and reason otherwise, I'd be willing to listen. However, even if God existed, He couldn't arbitrarily define morality to be whatever He wanted. Could God suddenly decide that it was moral to stab people?

#62 william7

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:46 AM

If He were really omnipotent, He could create a Utopain world instantly.

I personally believe that God is not all powerful or all knowing and is subject to laws or limitations on how He does things. This is why its taking as long as it is - by our standard of reckoning time - to bring about His Utopian Kingdom on earth.


so why does god lie to us in the bible saying he is omnipotent and omniscient? pure self marketing, i suppose?

He's never said He could create a Utopian world instantly. He's a creator God who has to work within certain time constraints. And when His work is finished He needs to rest too. Exodus 20:11.

#63 Ben Simon

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:59 AM

Athough preference utilitarianism is based on subjective preferences, I do see it as an objectively true philosophy. If you (or God) would like to try and reason otherwise, I'd be willing to listen. However, even if God existed, He couldn't arbitrarily define morality to be whatever He wanted. Could God suddenly decide that it was moral to stab people?


This is where we run the risk of getting kind of convoluted, as we are arguing the finer points of a 'being' that I assume neither one of us believes in.

Suffice to say that as I conceive of God, he would not arbitrarily define morality in the way you describe. It's not a matter of his opinion. Rather he has created the moral laws in the same way as he has created the physical laws. The whole complex system of life gives rise to objective moral truths. For him to suddenly make it right to do wrong is paradoxical and contradictory.

As for your assertion that preference utilitarianism is underpinned by an objective truth, this is probably my main problem with it. As with many relativistic moral ideas, it is hypocritical to say all morality is subjective, except for this one principle which ties our subjectivism together. If we accept that one principle can be objectively true, then it follows that others might be also. This is why I view preference utilitarianism, like moral relativism, to be self defeating. It's fundamental principle contradicts its fundamental principle. One could go further of course and remove that principle, in which case ones moral philosophy becomes a mere product of socialisation. This would be perfectly acceptable, but I'm not sure it would qualify as preference utilitarianism anymore.

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#64 eternaltraveler

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 01:11 AM

As with many relativistic moral ideas, it is hypocritical to say all morality is subjective


You're right. Morals tend to be defined as being based on an objective (absolute) standard. No such standard exists.

We'll have to make due with ethics, which are more honest and don't require convoluted reasoning to justify.

#65 william7

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 03:05 PM

No such standard exists.


What about the Ten Commandments? If properly interpreted and applied according to Jesus Christ's teachings, the Ten Commandments are the perfect law for building and maintaining a Utopian world where the people are living exceptionally long lifespans.

Can You find a proven source for lasting standards and values? God revealed the heart of His standards—the Ten Commandments—long ago at Mount Sinai. But what sets them apart from man-made rules and guidelines? What do they reveal about nature of God Himself. In this booklet you'll discover the answers to these questions and more.

http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/TC/

The need for religion and a Sabbath rest for maintaining good health habits was recently recognized in the article below about Blue Zones.

Blue Zones finds places where people live longest
By JEFF BAENEN, Associated Press Writer
Mon May 19, 8:52 AM ET

MINNEAPOLIS - If you are looking for a Fountain of Youth, forget pills and diet supplements. Adventurer Dan Buettner has visited four spots on the globe where people live into their 90s and 100s and outlines how they add years of good life in his new book, "The Blue Zones."

The answer, Buettner says, includes smaller food portions, an active lifestyle and moderate drinking.

"If someone tells you they have a pill or hormone (that extends life), you're about to lose money," Buettner says.

Buettner identifies four hot spots of longevity: the mountainous Barbagia region of Sardinia, an island off the coast of Italy; the Japanese island of Okinawa; a community of Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, Calif., about 60 miles east of Los Angeles; and the Nicoya Peninsula of Costa Rica, in Central America. (The term "Blue Zones" takes its name from the blue ink Belgian demographer Michel Poulain used to circle an area of long-living Sardinians on a map.)

What Buettner found in his seven years of research and travel were common denominators among the vigorous super-elderly — close family relationships, a sense of purpose, healthy eating habits. He distills them into what he calls the Power Nine that readers can use to create their own Blue Zone.

"Picking half a dozen things off of this al a carte menu, and sticking to it, is probably worth eight to 10 (extra) years for the average American. And you'll look younger and feel younger on the way," says Buettner, a tall and lean 48-year-old who says he hopes to live until at least 100.

Buettner turned to probing the secrets of the longest-living cultures after leading three long-distance bicycle expeditions — from the tip of North America to the tip of South America; across the United States, Europe and the Soviet Union; and across Africa — in the 1980s and 1990s. He also used the Internet to take classrooms on interactive quests to solve everything from the collapse of ancient Mayan civilization to human origins in Africa.

Buettner made his first expedition to Okinawa in 2000 and eventually wrote a National Geographic cover story, "The Secrets of Long Life," in November 2005. That led to National Geographic publishing "The Blue Zones" this March. The book debuted at No. 15 on The New York Times' list of advice book best sellers but has since dropped off.

Living long — even forever — is a human desire throughout history, says Dr. Robert Butler, president and CEO of the International Longevity Center-USA in New York. But Butler says he's skeptical of claims of places of long-living people.

"There's always been these rumors but they've always turned out to be inaccurate," said Butler, who appears in "The Blue Zones" but has not read it.

Buettner is aware of the skepticism, but says he and his team of demographers, which included Poulain, scrupulously checked birth and death records and vetted the ages of Blue Zone residents in his book.

"We have the numerical data that shows that these places (in 'The Blue Zones') are living longer. It's not just anecdotal," Buettner said.

While ranking populations by average life expectancy is nothing new, Buettner has "done a nice job putting faces to it and looking at some of the special characteristics — be it diet or happiness — that typify some of these regions," said Dr. Thomas T. Perls, director of the New England Centenarian Study and an associate professor of medicine at the Boston University School of Medicine. Perls also appears in the book.

Because of obesity and smoking, Americans are living about 10 years less than they should be, said Perls, co-author of the book "Living to 100." He said if Americans embraced the healthy habits advocated by Buettner, the impact on public health "would be huge."

Buettner found long-lived people have a sense of purpose and a strong support network. In Okinawa, women gather in social networks known as moais.

"Even at age 100, they're all getting together in their moai ... at 5 o'clock every day. They sit around, they drink a couple glasses of sake, they gossip, they talk about sex. If one doesn't show up to the afternoon gathering, the other four sort of hobble over to see if she's fallen down or if she needs help," Buettner said.

Women in Okinawa also tend to be spiritual leaders, which imbues them with a sense of purpose, or "ikigai," Buettner said.

Regular attendance at religious services also is a factor, Buettner said. Seventh-day Adventists observe the Sabbath on Saturday, which gives them a weekly break from stress.

"There's no question but having a spiritual sense — a sense of belonging, a sense of personal value — enhances a person's ability to follow good health habits. Out of that arises the longevity," said Dr. Richard Hart, president and CEO of Loma Linda University Adventist Health Sciences Center.


Limiting food intake and eating healthy also are key, Buettner said. Elderly Okinawans follow a maxim to eat only until their stomachs are 80 percent full, Buettner said. Centenarians in Sardinia, Okinawa and Nicoya rarely ate meat, and some Adventists stick only to a plant-based diet. Adventists frequently eat nuts while Okinawans eat tofu.

Drinking in moderation can help, Buettner said. Sardinians drink a dark red wine that's loaded with antioxidants, he said.

Exposure to sun — a source of vitamin D — also is common in Blue Zones, where the residents are tan, Buettner said.

"We shouldn't be burning ourselves, we shouldn't be frying. But 20 minutes a day, in the climates or the latitudes that have quality sunshine, it's probably a good takeaway," he said.

Buettner also advocates low-intensity physical activity. After years of biking, Buettner has switched to yoga for his main exercise. He lives on Lake of the Isles in Minneapolis, where he can skate around the lake in the summer and cross-country ski across it in the winter.

"You identify what you like to do, and you do it, because you're likely to do that over the long run," Buettner said.

Buettner also recommends "de-conveniencing" your home — getting rid of the TV remote or the power lawnmower. Buettner moved up to the third floor of his spacious home "so every time I need a shirt I walk three flights of stairs."

Modern life is threatening the Blue Zones' reputation for longevity, Buettner said. Obesity rates have soared in Sardinia, where young people are eating chips and drinking soda pop, he said.

"The phenomena of longevity is disappearing in all places, except for maybe among the Adventists, and the purpose of this book was to capture it and observe it before it disappeared, and measure it," Buettner said.

http://news.yahoo.co...book_blue_zones

#66 forever freedom

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:02 PM

elijah, it's the "sense of belonging" that increases the propensity of the person to live longer and not the religion. A sense of belonging is one of the benefits of religion, no doubt about it, but you can get this sense of belonging in other places. Religion isn't a must, to live longer.

#67 william7

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 10:23 PM

elijah, it's the "sense of belonging" that increases the propensity of the person to live longer and not the religion. A sense of belonging is one of the benefits of religion, no doubt about it, but you can get this sense of belonging in other places. Religion isn't a must, to live longer.

It is a must if you want to live a very, very long time instead of just a little longer than usual. Where are you going to find a nonreligious organization that will do all the following:

1) Give you both a sense of belonging and a sense of God's providence in your life;

2) Encourage you to live an ascetic lifestyle, eat a vegetarian diet and fast regularly;

3) Encourage you to live peaceably with your neighbor;

4) Encourage you to live communally without money;

5) Strengthen and support a monogamous marriage;

6) Give you a law that can be taught to your children through positive reinforcement;

7) Give you a law that can be instilled in the heart and mind so well it will replace the need for after the fact punishment;

8) Fully supports living long and healthy and conquering aging and death.

#68 Cyberbrain

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 10:45 PM

It is a must if you want to live a very, very long time instead of just a little longer than usual. Where are you going to find a nonreligious organization that will do all the following:

1) Give you a sense of belonging;

I already have a sense of belonging in my diverse community. I also have a sense of belonging by my friends, family and by online communities such as the WTA and Imminst.

2) Encourage you to live an ascetic lifestyle, eat a vegetarian diet and fast regularly;

Friends, family and doctors encourage me to go on a diet, and longevity communities such as Imminst give me reason to eventually go on a calorie restriction diet.

3) Encourage you to live peaceably with your neighbor;

We all have an innate ability to be good neighbors with one another.

Those who need religion as an excuse to be a good neighbor are weak minded.

4) Encourage you to live communally without money;

Who said money is bad?

Either way, we're heading towards the world of Star Trek.

And once our consciousness's are all linked together, money will become obsolete.

5) Strengthen and support a monogamous marriage;

As long as romance and love exists, civil unions will also exist as a symbol of commitment.

6) Give you a law that can be taught to your children through positive reinforcement;

The only laws I'll be teaching to my children are scientific laws.

7) Give you a law that can be instilled in the heart and mind so well it will replace the need for after the fact punishment;

I believe altruism is natural. We don't need a law reinforcing it. Only weak minded need such laws.

8) Fully supports living long and healthy and conquering aging and death.

As far as I can tell there seems to be a pretty large longevity community.

#69 william7

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 01:15 AM

1) Give you a sense of belonging;

I already have a sense of belonging in my diverse community. I also have a sense of belonging by my friends, family and by online communities such as the WTA and Imminst

I noticed you left out "a sense of God's providence in your life" for #1. Certainly none of the organizations you mention can supply that for you.

#70 Cyberbrain

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 01:49 AM

1) Give you a sense of belonging;

I already have a sense of belonging in my diverse community. I also have a sense of belonging by my friends, family and by online communities such as the WTA and Imminst

I noticed you left out "a sense of God's providence in your life" for #1. Certainly none of the organizations you mention can supply that for you.

Nope they don't. Well there are some churches in my town, but they don't bother me.

I left out God, because I was trying to prove that you don't need God to be happy or to live a long, healthy, loving and meaningful life.

Most people need God because they're either desperate, scared, have miserable lives, or are conditioned (brain washed) to believe in him.

I have no problem with people believing in God as long as they are happy, healthy, keep their spiritual beliefs to themselves (ie they don't try to convert others), and as long as they don't abstract scientific advancement and the peace.

Edited by Kostas, 22 May 2008 - 01:49 AM.


#71 forever freedom

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 08:21 PM

1) Give you a sense of belonging;

I already have a sense of belonging in my diverse community. I also have a sense of belonging by my friends, family and by online communities such as the WTA and Imminst

I noticed you left out "a sense of God's providence in your life" for #1. Certainly none of the organizations you mention can supply that for you.



When will you understand that not all people have that "void in their lives that is only filled by God" (aka a degree of unhappiness/unfulfillment/"not belonging") as you religious people like to call it? We DON'T NEED GOD to make our lives "have a meaning". My life already has more "meaning" than i can handle, and i don't feel ANY, as small as it may be, need for god.

But i'm sure you'll not understand it. I believe this is because people are wired differently from birth (yes, i think it comes down to genetics, at least that's the conclusion i draw from my experience). Some people are more predisposed to accept religion, because it "fills the gap they have", while others never had this "gap" in the first place so they see no need in the comforting view that a superior being is taking care of them and only wants their best. Of course, people from this second group, for various reasons, will still become religious if the environment heavily bombards them with viral memes.

#72 braz

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 08:20 AM



Watch the girl Erika from the second part of the video. Notice that when she is scared, she starts praying to god, crying for him to save her from this terrible experience. And guess what. It turns out to be a prank! That surely must have convinced her that God helped her in this situation, perhaps just taught her a lesson of some sort. I think that an elaborate religious explanation was constructed in her mind after this incident.

Elijah, do you really think that God had anything to do in this situation? It was just a coincidence, a confusing combination of circumstances. Same thing applies to the gun-jamming experience and the guy praying to God.

#73 william7

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 03:01 PM



Watch the girl Erika from the second part of the video. Notice that when she is scared, she starts praying to god, crying for him to save her from this terrible experience. And guess what. It turns out to be a prank! That surely must have convinced her that God helped her in this situation, perhaps just taught her a lesson of some sort. I think that an elaborate religious explanation was constructed in her mind after this incident.

Elijah, do you really think that God had anything to do in this situation? It was just a coincidence, a confusing combination of circumstances. Same thing applies to the gun-jamming experience and the guy praying to God.

That was a very interesting video Braz. I, however, believe the attractive young women were warned in advance. What if one of those girls was carrying a weapon of some sort because of fears of sexual assault and let the troll have it. That would've been a real mess.

I can't believe anybody would be foolish enough to scare unsuspecting women with a faked suicide. I think that would open the pranksters up for an intentional infliction of mental or emotional distress lawsuit.

The situation in the video I posted was quite a bit different. The young man was subjected to a real assault with intent to commit murder. He had solid Christian character as shown in the subsequent interview which leads me to believe he sincerely prayed that his life be spared and God answered the prayer.

#74 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 03:22 PM

Elijah, do you understand how operant conditioning works?

If so, given a desired operant behavior (taught by parents) where a positive stimulus might be received ~20% of the time (the same frequency as not performing the operant behavior at all), how likely do you think it is that people would get stuck in a local optimum?

Also take note that the teacher of this operant behavior instills a feeling of guilt and or hopelessness in the subject if the operant behavior isn't performed.

I really do think that if you understand this mechanism you'll see why praying to a deity is no better than praying to a can of tuna.

#75 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 03:24 PM

Braz. I, however, believe the attractive young women were warned in advance.

Elijah, quit with your excuses. Take the video for what it is, as we have done for yours.

#76 william7

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 02:04 AM

Elijah, do you understand how operant conditioning works?

Yeah, I use to self-study B. F. Skinner's behavioral psychology back in the late 1970s and 80s.

If so, given a desired operant behavior (taught by parents) where a positive stimulus might be received ~20% of the time (the same frequency as not performing the operant behavior at all), how likely do you think it is that people would get stuck in a local optimum?

Also take note that the teacher of this operant behavior instills a feeling of guilt and or hopelessness in the subject if the operant behavior isn't performed.

I really do think that if you understand this mechanism you'll see why praying to a deity is no better than praying to a can of tuna.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Are you trying to say parents instill religious beliefs and practices through positive reinforcement and they become so well ingrained in the character that it becomes very difficult to break away from such beliefs and practices?

#77 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 02:29 AM

Yeah, I use to self-study B. F. Skinner's behavioral psychology back in the late 1970s and 80s.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Are you trying to say parents instill religious beliefs and practices through positive reinforcement and they become so well ingrained in the character that it becomes very difficult to break away from such beliefs and practices?

Good, then what do you make of it in the context of this discussion? Don't you think that it might be possible that since said children are brought up with the mentality of: This is the only way, and if You pray hard and often enough it will come true they might feel kind of uncomfortable letting go of that 20% accurate prayer system? (e.g. their local optimum), they are more likely to be better off constructively working towards their goals rather than hoping and pleading the outcome is in their best interest?

Elijah, I guess my main question to you is: Why is it so inconceivable that the gun jammed due improper care/cleaning or a faulty part?

Why are you so quick to invoke the divine?

If your car (I think you've mentioned you don't have one) broke down, would you blame/credit it to god?

What about a blender? a toaster? a dish-washing machine?

Could it be maybe that you just don't understand how the machines work well enough to offer a mechanical explanation so you just pull god out of your ass?

Also, what about other convenience store clerks who weren't so lucky? Did they bleed to death crying in agony because it was part of god's plan? If you say yes... You are a sick twisted freak. If you say no, your god is a worthless piece of shit.

#78 Ben Simon

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 02:53 AM

If you say yes... You are a sick twisted freak. If you say no, your god is a worthless piece of shit.


...Oh dear.

#79 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 03:17 AM

If you say yes... You are a sick twisted freak. If you say no, your god is a worthless piece of shit.


...Oh dear.


Harsh language is warranted when dealing with idiocy like this.

#80 Cyberbrain

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 03:33 AM

Talking to Christians and Theists is like talking to a mule:



#81 forever freedom

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 06:06 AM

If you say yes... You are a sick twisted freak. If you say no, your god is a worthless piece of shit.


...Oh dear.


Harsh language is warranted when dealing with idiocy like this.



yea.. unfortunately with harsh language or not.. nothing is changing most religious people's minds. rationality has nothing to do with it.

#82 zoolander

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 07:29 AM

this thread = Unrelated to Life Extension

Moved

#83 william7

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 03:12 PM

Talking to Christians and Theists is like talking to a mule:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...bEzBhQAA&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Must be a Republican sponsored video. :-D

#84 william7

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:39 AM

Good, then what do you make of it in the context of this discussion? Don't you think that it might be possible that since said children are brought up with the mentality of: This is the only way, and if You pray hard and often enough it will come true they might feel kind of uncomfortable letting go of that 20% accurate prayer system? (e.g. their local optimum), they are more likely to be better off constructively working towards their goals rather than hoping and pleading the outcome is in their best interest?

Let me meditate on this one for awhile. I just got back from along bicycle ride. I'm beat!


Elijah, I guess my main question to you is: Why is it so inconceivable that the gun jammed due improper care/cleaning or a faulty part?

True, I don't know for certain it was divine intervention. But, because the young man in the video displayed exemplary Christian character and reasoning, I'm persuaded it was an act of God he was spared.

Why are you so quick to invoke the divine?

I'm a serious believer in God and the Bible. I believe God works in the lives of men and women today.


If your car (I think you've mentioned you don't have one) broke down, would you blame/credit it to god?

I might credit it to God if I missed being in an accident as a result. No, I don't have a car but I recently started driving and have a temporary drivers permit until I take the test.

What about a blender? a toaster? a dish-washing machine?

Again, if I missed suffering sometype of serious harm, I might believe God had intervened.

Also, what about other convenience store clerks who weren't so lucky? Did they bleed to death crying in agony because it was part of god's plan? If you say yes... You are a sick twisted freak. If you say no, your god is a worthless piece of shit.

God does not intervene in every case. He picks them as He sees them. God allows suffering for a reason. Checkout this free booklet Why Does God Allows Suffering?, at http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/AS/.




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