24 replies to this topic

[VictorBjoerk]

Just speculating when thinking about how the CR effect works in humans.
Let's say we have 2 twins of average size.One consumes the average 3000 calories a day while the other is a obese binge-eater who consumes in the range of 5000-7000 calories a day.However he has good genes and luckily escapes the killers like heart disease etc (just like in the case of the king of Tonga who lived to the age of 88 although weighing over 400 lbs for large parts of his life and never under 300.Wouldn't they have similar lifespans and let's say die of organ failure due to generalized old age weakness or whatever people die of in nursing homes.
Obesity causes a lot of damage as far as I understand but it doesn't "accelerate aging" after all so that you end up frail and wrinkly in nursing homes in your 50's.And since the one eating 3000 calories a day doesn't activate any potential longevity enhancing activities due to cr he would also age normally.
As far as I understand CR works due to the body's response to upgrade itself for maintenance when calories are low and therefore I conclude that an athlete of the same size eating 5000 calories a day during all his life and exercising would live just as long if not even longer than the person eating 3000 calories a day but being sedentary.

Am I thinking right?Comments would be appreciated

[niner]

Am I thinking right?Comments would be appreciated

Yeah, I think you have it basically right. If the obese person develops type 2 diabetes, then they might see a form of accelerated aging.

[forever freedom]

It's hard to imagine that a meak skinny looking person (in CR diet) is very likely to outlive another person with a very athletic shape. It really goes against "common sense".

[niner]

It's hard to imagine that a meak skinny looking person (in CR diet) is very likely to outlive another person with a very athletic shape. It really goes against "common sense".

Common sense fails again...

[Shepard]

Why does it go against common sense?

BTW, muscular shape isn't always the same as athletic shape.

[forever freedom]

Why does it go against common sense?

I said "common sense" not common sense

By "common sense" i mean what most people will think. They see someone with an athletic shape and compare him to a skinny meak person and they will obviously think that the one with the athletic shape is in better health and will possibly live longer.

Most women won't be attracted to the skinny guy who is going to live longer and has a better health. They are attracted to the "guy with a hot shape". So "common sense" could also mean what evolution made us think of as the "healthy athletic role model".

BTW, muscular shape isn't always the same as athletic shape.

Yea i know. But hey ain't that a cool pic.

Edited by sam988, 20 May 2008 - 04:13 AM.

[eldar]

Just speculating when thinking about how the CR effect works in humans.
Let's say we have 2 twins of average size.One consumes the average 3000 calories a day while the other is a obese binge-eater who consumes in the range of 5000-7000 calories a day.However he has good genes and luckily escapes the killers like heart disease etc (just like in the case of the king of Tonga who lived to the age of 88 although weighing over 400 lbs for large parts of his life and never under 300.Wouldn't they have similar lifespans and let's say die of organ failure due to generalized old age weakness or whatever people die of in nursing homes.
Obesity causes a lot of damage as far as I understand but it doesn't "accelerate aging" after all so that you end up frail and wrinkly in nursing homes in your 50's.And since the one eating 3000 calories a day doesn't activate any potential longevity enhancing activities due to cr he would also age normally.
As far as I understand CR works due to the body's response to upgrade itself for maintenance when calories are low and therefore I conclude that an athlete of the same size eating 5000 calories a day during all his life and exercising would live just as long if not even longer than the person eating 3000 calories a day but being sedentary.

Am I thinking right?Comments would be appreciated

Yes, I think the athlete, getting the benefits from exercise, would probably live longer. But you would have to do a lot of exercising to account for the 5000 calories per day.
The second person, eating 3000 calories, would probably end up obese, since that is quite a lot of calories per day if you are sedentary.

But I don't really see what this all has to do with the benefits(pay-off) of CR?

Edited by ceth, 20 May 2008 - 09:38 AM.

[Matt]

what has other peoples opinions, or attractiveness have anything to do with the pay off of Calorie Restriction on Longevity ? LOL

I actually think Michael looks very young for his age (hes around 37-38?). In fact, he doesn't look much older than a lot of my friends who are my age.

Edited by Matt, 20 May 2008 - 12:57 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

But looks maybe doesn't predict very much about longevity.Up to a certain age maybe about 40 people tend to look younger when they are thinner but after that they can actually look older when staying thin.The "healthy athletic role model" is of course the one women are genetically programmed to like since they could dominate other men and provide the woman with lots of children due to their stamina.

A little offtopic,Why do many women prefer fat guys rather than skinny?Are fat men more fertile than skinny or something?Being very skinny for a man seems to be a turnoff for many women.Except in the EMO subculture of course.

[Matt]

But looks maybe doesn't predict very much about longevity.Up to a certain age maybe about 40 people tend to look younger when they are thinner but after that they can actually look older when staying thin.The "healthy athletic role model" is of course the one women are genetically programmed to like since they could dominate other men and provide the woman with lots of children due to their stamina.

A little offtopic,Why do many women prefer fat guys rather than skinny?Are fat men more fertile than skinny or something?Being very skinny for a man seems to be a turnoff for many women.Except in the EMO subculture of course.

This Okinawan Guy looks quite thin, but decades younger (IMO) than his age, hes around 90 years old in this photo. But it isn't only looking younger that most long term CRONies have is it? THey also have extremely good health, hearts that function like a person 20 years younger... among the lowest possible disease risk profiles you can get.

Also don't forget that peoples perception of what is 'normal' has drastically changed simply because the general population are very much used to being around people who have an average BMI of 25-26.




You can watch the videos here:
http://ngm.nationalg.../daily_vid.html

Edited by Matt, 21 May 2008 - 12:13 AM.

[Heliotrope]

It's hard to imagine that a meak skinny looking person (in CR diet) is very likely to outlive another person with a very athletic shape. It really goes against "common sense".

if this is the ancient primitive world's survival of the fittest, the muscular guy can take on that couple above and can certainly eliminate them physically if there is ever a competition for resources.

i'd like to be somewhat muscular too, has its benefits too, it'd boost confidence, since i'm tall and skinny looking (6 ft 2 , 160 to 170 lbs or so and feel physically weak). more confidence , attract more girls , likely a bit more happiness , may all add a couple of years to life. i must have a fast metabolism because i certainly eat more than 3,000 cals per day, sometimes consume as much as 5,000 cal and i don't seem to gain a lot of weight, still in this normal weight range. Hope it's not a hidden disease or parasite.

Edited by HYP86, 21 May 2008 - 03:50 AM.

[forever freedom]

i'd like to be somewhat muscular too, has its benefits too, it'd boost confidence, since i'm tall and skinny looking (6 ft 2 , 160 to 170 lbs or so and feel physically weak). more confidence , attract more girls , likely a bit more happiness , may all add a couple of years to life. i must have a fast metabolism because i certainly eat more than 3,000 cals per day, sometimes consume as much as 5,000 cal and i don't seem to gain a lot of weight, still in this normal weight range.

Since you're already skinny, this may be an advantage for you to start and adapt to CR. People wouldn't go like "what happened to you? are you dying" sort of stuff. I think that the biggest obstacle for me to start CR is that i'm afraid my looks would so much change. I've always had athletic shape and with CR if i lost some 8kg (10% of my weight) (yea no pounds in my country, now YOU translate! ) i would look much "weaker".

I think that females have the easiest time with CR since thin is a compliment for them. And all that talk about eating mostly vegetables is culturally more accepted for women than for men that would be seen as ...dunno/forgot a word in english....


But i disagree that women prefer fat guys to skinny guys. If the skinny guy is "cool", then he can have his score of chicks without problem. Actually a "cool" fat guy also could get his score. Considerating that they do have a couple of other qualities of course.

[VictorBjoerk]

But looks maybe doesn't predict very much about longevity.Up to a certain age maybe about 40 people tend to look younger when they are thinner but after that they can actually look older when staying thin.The "healthy athletic role model" is of course the one women are genetically programmed to like since they could dominate other men and provide the woman with lots of children due to their stamina.

A little offtopic,Why do many women prefer fat guys rather than skinny?Are fat men more fertile than skinny or something?Being very skinny for a man seems to be a turnoff for many women.Except in the EMO subculture of course.

This Okinawan Guy looks quite thin, but decades younger (IMO) than his age, hes around 90 years old in this photo. But it isn't only looking younger that most long term CRONies have is it? THey also have extremely good health, hearts that function like a person 20 years younger... among the lowest possible disease risk profiles you can get.

Also don't forget that peoples perception of what is 'normal' has drastically changed simply because the general population are very much used to being around people who have an average BMI of 25-26.




You can watch the videos here:
http://ngm.nationalg.../daily_vid.html

He seems in fantastic shape for such a age,I wonder however if it will translate into a exceptional lifespan of 110 or so.If he reaches that age it would be clear to me that cr really manipulates maximum life span and not just make people healthier during the time they live.

[eldar]

He seems in fantastic shape for such a age,I wonder however if it will translate into a exceptional lifespan of 110 or so.If he reaches that age it would be clear to me that cr really manipulates maximum life span and not just make people healthier during the time they live.

Even if all CR did, was to make people healthier during the time they live, it would still be worth doing. That is, because it would increase your odds of making it to old age, without dying young for some reason or another. You really should not take the 80 years or so as guaranteed, but instead strive to do everything possible to increase the likelihood of making it to old age. That is, if you wish to be around when real anti-aging therapies start showing up. If not, then do as you wish.

Since you're already skinny, this may be an advantage for you to start and adapt to CR. People wouldn't go like "what happened to you? are you dying" sort of stuff. I think that the biggest obstacle for me to start CR is that i'm afraid my looks would so much change. I've always had athletic shape and with CR if i lost some 8kg (10% of my weight) (yea no pounds in my country, now YOU translate! shifty.jpg) i would look much "weaker".

I am/was in the same situation. I've been lifting weights for many years now and have a moderate muscle mass, yet couple months ago I decided I will start CR. I know I will lose most of my muscle mass, but it is a trade off I'm willing to make. I have to admit it was a hard decision, and took me a year or more to make, but now that I've made it, I know that it is the only choice I could have made. Vanity and appearance just aren't worth risking your life for.

Edited by ceth, 21 May 2008 - 08:23 AM.

[Heliotrope]

if i do CR, i'd be even more skinny looking and lose what little muscle i have , in the eventuality that i'm confronted by attackers/ muggers etc, may need some muscles to flight or flight instead of dying at some robber's gun or dagger

[VictorBjoerk]

if i do CR, i'd be even more skinny looking and lose what little muscle i have , in the eventuality that i'm confronted by attackers/ muggers etc, may need some muscles to flight or flight instead of dying at some robber's gun or dagger

160 pounds at 6'2 isn't particularly skinny.If you would do CR to the same degree as the serious practioners you would at that height weigh 120-130...Now THAT would be skinny

[LaRose]

Re: guys who are afraid of CR because they think women like muscular guys...

1. I am female and can't count the times that the subject of "Mr. Universe" - type bodybuilders comes up, with the universal female reaction of "Ewwwwwwwwww!" The vast, vast majority of women can't stand that overdeveloped look! And I am not alone in my attraction to skinny skinny guys. Besides, a number of women don't care all that much about looks, anyway. Just dress decently, be cool, and you'll have no trouble.

It amuses me how men want to get buff and women want to look like fashion models, and neither sex is particularly attracted to either look. Most women have no problem whatsoever with a skinny guy, and most men don't mind a few extra pounds on a gal or even prefer it.

2. If you want to live a long time via CR, surely you want to hook up with a CR woman and not some soft, curvy dame who will kick the bucket at 60. A CR woman surely isn't looking for some beefy guy.

[LaRose]

I'm surprised anyone in this forum thinks the guy in the bottom picture on post #3 looks "healthy." I think he looks like he's going to explode. I can just see his heart struggling. The thin guy in the top photo looks MUCH healthier, and, in my opinion, much more attractive.

[VictorBjoerk]

I don't think many people here really thinks he looks healthy.Bodybuilding isn't very healthy according to many doctors btw. And yes the skinny guy Michael Rae is probably one of the healthiest people in the world for his age.

Anyhow there seems to be many women who would prefer fat men before really skinny ones....

Edited by Shonghow, 01 June 2008 - 09:42 PM.

[LaRose]

>The "healthy athletic role model" is of course the one women are genetically programmed to like since they could dominate other men

A recent study showed that women prefer leaner men as long-term mates. One hypothesis is that big, beefy guys are more of a drain on resources; require more food to sustain.

[VictorBjoerk]

maybe long-term mates but not love at first glance...

[Shepard]

A recent study showed that women prefer leaner men as long-term mates. One hypothesis is that big, beefy guys are more of a drain on resources; require more food to sustain.

If it's what I saw, it was lean...not skinny. Meaning, there was a muscular base, but not excessive in either direction.

Bodybuilding isn't very healthy according to many doctors btw.

"Bodybuilding" is an extremely vague term. What do you mean?

[VictorBjoerk]

competitive bodybuilding

[Shepard]

competitive bodybuilding

Still quite vague. I won't press the point since I highly doubt the reasoning of whatever doctors you're talking about.

[LaRose]

Definition of "bodybuilding"

IMO, working out with weights to the point of adding considerable muscle tissue rather than toning up what you already have.