72 replies to this topic

[Ben Simon]

Yeah, I believe in a resurrection of the dead. There's the first resurrection of the dead at Christ's Second Coming ...We believe when the dead are resurrected they will reign with Christ on earth and not in heaven... So far only Jesus Christ has been resurrected from the dead and He resides in heaven with the Father.

You're seriously deluded, dear elijah3. I suggest you to watch another video. Is it preposterous too?

That's two for two b0gger.

I really resent this kind of post.

For one thing, Elijah, while you may disagree with him, is always respectful as far as I can see, and has done no more than express his beliefs in the spirit of a mutual exchange of ideas.

I don't believe the things Elijah believes, but unlike you I hope I would always speak to him respectfully. Your willingness to just spit accusations of being deluded at him is troubling, as is your insistence on posting irrelevant youtube clips. The first clip was idiotic. It was to informed atheism what fundamentalist dogma is to christian scholarship. The second clip is almost worse, merely by virtue of it's complete irrelevance to this discussion. Yes, a group of christians are taking tours through a museum indoctrinating children into a life of anti-scientific nonsense. This is very, very troubling. But it's not reflective of anything other than their own ignorance. What does this have to do with Elijah? Surely you aren't suggesting that somehow because a small group of people who profess to be of the same or similar religion would behave in this way, somehow this is any reflection on him? Are you?

...Your willingness to group all christian people together and tar them with the anti-evolutionist brush is pure prejudice, worthy of contempt.

Edited by ben, 26 May 2008 - 12:23 AM.

[PWAIN]

Elijah,

My understanding is that Christ died and came back to life - this event proved that he was the son of God. No other person can return from the dead.

Now prior to finding out some facts, you believed that this person returned from the dead. Does this mean that you believed that this person was part of the holy trininty? If not then you would have to acknowledge that the resurection was nothing special and that the supposed proof of Christ that comes from the resurection is nothing of the sort. Effectivly, any resurection from the dead would nullify the supposed uniqueness of the Christ resurection.

Would you consider someone revived from a cryonic state to be back from the dead ie. resurected?

[Ben Simon]

Elijah,

My understanding is that Christ died and came back to life - this event proved that he was the son of God. No other person can return from the dead.

Now prior to finding out some facts, you believed that this person returned from the dead. Does this mean that you believed that this person was part of the holy trininty? If not then you would have to acknowledge that the resurection was nothing special and that the supposed proof of Christ that comes from the resurection is nothing of the sort. Effectivly, any resurection from the dead would nullify the supposed uniqueness of the Christ resurection.

No. This is incorrect.

There are other examples of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. Lazarus is one... the sick girl Christ raised is another. There may be others, I don't know. The point is that Jesus is said to have risen by his own authority, not merely that he was raised.

[b0gger]

That's two for two b0gger.

I really resent this kind of post.

For one thing, Elijah, while you may disagree with him, is always respectful as far as I can see, and has done no more than express his beliefs in the spirit of a mutual exchange of ideas.

I don't believe the things Elijah believes, but unlike you I hope I would always speak to him respectfully. Your willingness to just spit accusations of being deluded at him is troubling, as is your insistence on posting irrelevant youtube clips. The first clip was idiotic. It was to informed atheism what fundamentalist dogma is to christian scholarship. The second clip is almost worse, merely by virtue of it's complete irrelevance to this discussion. Yes, a group of christians are taking tours through a museum indoctrinating children into a life of anti-scientific nonsense. This is very, very troubling. But it's not reflective of anything other than their own ignorance. What does this have to do with Elijah? Surely you aren't suggesting that somehow because a small group of people who profess to be of the same or similar religion would behave in this way, somehow this is any reflection on him? Are you?

...Your willingness to group all christian people together and tar them with the anti-evolutionist brush is pure prejudice, worthy of contempt.

Your accusations have no common ground with the reality. You no need to get offended with me, naming white color a white color. Calling my links idiotic, you will not make them so. Try and prove they are. These videos were relevant, because Elijah is a christian, and yes, I'm putting all religious people in one group, what is wrong with that anyway. Btw it's possible to measure faith, yet another great video.

[zoolander]

Whilst this thread is very very loosely related to life extension I'm moving it to the Unrelated forum. Miracles have nothing to do with the scientific quest for Life Extension/immortality.

[william7]

Elijah,

My understanding is that Christ died and came back to life - this event proved that he was the son of God. No other person can return from the dead.

Now prior to finding out some facts, you believed that this person returned from the dead. Does this mean that you believed that this person was part of the holy trininty? If not then you would have to acknowledge that the resurection was nothing special and that the supposed proof of Christ that comes from the resurection is nothing of the sort. Effectivly, any resurection from the dead would nullify the supposed uniqueness of the Christ resurection.

No. This is incorrect.

There are other examples of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. Lazarus is one... the sick girl Christ raised is another. There may be others, I don't know. The point is that Jesus is said to have risen by his own authority, not merely that he was raised.

I agree with this except Jesus said the girl was not dead, only asleep. Matthew 9:24. Compare that with John 11:14 where Jesus point blank says Lazarus is dead. From this I must deduce that God has set criteria for when a person must be considered dead and not revivable except through divine intervention.

I suspect that if Jesus would've came upon the woman in the video I posted, He would've said she was not dead, only asleep.

[william7]

My understanding is that Christ died and came back to life - this event proved that he was the son of God.

The resurrection was just one of many signs Jesus was the Messiah. There were other miracles and signs that He was the Son of God.

Jesus also fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 5:17. This was a big sign He was the Messiah too.

Does this mean that you believed that this person was part of the holy trininty?

I associate and worship with Sabbatarian Christians. We believe the trinity idea to be unbiblical and that the Holy Spirit is not a person or individual. We believe the Holy Spirit to be a manifestation of God's power.

Checkout the links below for more on the trinity doctrine and its origins.

http://www.gnmagazin...usion_power.htm

http://www.gnmagazin...godatrinity.htm

http://www.gnmagazin...ormingpower.asp

http://www.gnmagazin...itydoctrine.asp

If not then you would have to acknowledge that the resurection was nothing special

I believe Jesus Christ's resurrection was something special. Not only was it a sign He was God's chosen one, it also was an example of death being conquered. It's in God the Father's plan for the future to finally put an end to death and suffering. Revelation 21:1-4.

Would you consider someone revived from a cryonic state to be back from the dead ie. resurected?

It would depend on how bad of shape the body was in before it was preserved. If it's just severed bits and pieces collected from the battlefield or is seriously decomposed, I would have to believe the person was resurrected from the dead.

I guess it ultimately depends on what God considers death to be. I don't know very much about cryonics, but I think I read somewhere that they don't believe they're resurrecting the dead or infringing on God's prerogative in this area. It wouldn't be very good for business if they did.

[william7]

Miracles have nothing to do with the scientific quest for Life Extension/immortality.

I protest! You're smoking that crap again Zoo.

Edited by elijah3, 26 May 2008 - 03:09 PM.

[dr_chaos]

Vincent: I guess it's when God makes the impossible possible.

So if only one person( the one you call god) is able to do something you call it impossible and everytime he does it you call it a miracle. Nice. May I inform you that the post you read at the moment is a miracle, too, because I am the only one who's got the password to my account and therefore it is impossible for anyone else to post under this nick. End of discussion. Miracles exist.

[bgwowk]

From this I must deduce that God has set criteria for when a person must be considered dead and not revivable except through divine intervention.

I think you just put your finger on the key issue of defining death. If a violation of the laws of physics (aka divine intervention) is required to bring someone back, that's resurrection from the dead. If advanced technology alone can do it, that's resuscitation from a coma.

We often assign the label "dead" to people when there is nothing more that we can do for them, not because they are really beyond resuscitation by any technology. The truth that people slowly slip away after their heart stops while there is nothing that can be done is too unpleasant to think about.

[Mind]

I protest! You're smoking that crap again Zoo.

Made me laugh.


I would say this case was miraculous, but it didn't take divine intervention. I would like to know how her body handled the long period of apparent stasis at room temperature. Could be useful.

[PWAIN]

If not then you would have to acknowledge that the resurection was nothing special

I believe Jesus Christ's resurrection was something special. Not only was it a sign He was God's chosen one, it also was an example of death being conquered. It's in God the Father's plan for the future to finally put an end to death and suffering. Revelation 21:1-4.

But since it is not a unique event (Lazarus) then it has no special significance other that what Christ (and his followers) chose to ascribe to it. All the rest is just words so we are left with relying on believing Chists words ie. faith. There is therefore no evidence of a miracle.

Would you consider someone revived from a cryonic state to be back from the dead ie. resurected?

It would depend on how bad of shape the body was in before it was preserved. If it's just severed bits and pieces collected from the battlefield or is seriously decomposed, I would have to believe the person was resurrected from the dead.

I guess it ultimately depends on what God considers death to be. I don't know very much about cryonics, but I think I read somewhere that they don't believe they're resurrecting the dead or infringing on God's prerogative in this area. It wouldn't be very good for business if they did.

Ok, since this is imminst, how about these scenarios:

1. Sub atomic level scan of a living person, person dies and body rots or is cut up or both. new body created using scanned information - person revived and appears happily alive.

2. Sub atomic level scan of a living person, person dies and body is destroyed, new material used to create replacement body using scanned information - person revived and appears happily alive.

3. Sub atomic level scan of a living person, person dies and body is destroyed, new material used to create multiple replacement bodys using scanned information - persons are revived and appears happily alive.

4. No scan performed, person dies and body rots, technology used to look back in time and analyse persons at sub atomic level at the time they were alive. Replacement created using this information - person revived and appears happily alive.

If none of these can be a miracle, what is the defining criteria? Information loss? Well if that is the case then there can never be a miracle as long as Einstein is correct about relativity, since it does not rule out time travel. This means that information is never truely lost so the miracle cannot truely happen.

[affinity]

Why is it always god sending people back, what about satan sending someone back to take names and kick ass?
Seriously. Watch that old lady around your children.

Edite: [/sarcasm]

Edited by affinity, 28 May 2008 - 10:54 PM.