113 replies to this topic

[mentatpsi]

I was kinda of curious the statistic of stances towards the operation of the Large Hadron Collider. Having just watched a program on it, I myself am beginning to lean more towards uncertainty since it has equal weight in both pros and cons.

Anyways, for those willing, give your reasoning.

[modelcadet]

I was kinda of curious the statistic of stances towards the operation of the Large Hadron Collider. Having just watched a program on it, I myself am beginning to lean more towards uncertainty since it has equal weight in both pros and cons.

Anyways, for those willing, give your reasoning.

Yes for the $10 Billion sunk cost. We're not gonna get sucked into a black hole, guys.

[Cyberbrain]

Yeah, I don't see any reason not to run it. Unless someone can point me to a valid list of arguments not to.

[Live Forever]

For as much time, effort, and money that has been put into the thing, they better run it.

[mentatpsi]

I'm just wondering what do you guys think are some of the potential uses we have with this knowledge.

Anyways, thanks again for anyone who took/takes the time to elaborate .

Edited by mysticpsi, 03 June 2008 - 07:45 PM.

[Shoe]

Of course they should accelerate dem particles! When is the premiere?

OT: Anyone other than me who's always reading the name as "Large Hardon Collider"?

[forever freedom]

Just run the damn thing! There's no evidence that we will create a giant black hole (aren't we overestimating ourselves too much here?), so endless and illogical worry for every new tech that comes will do no good.

[Brainbox]

If they do not run it quickly, we will be struck by a big meteor before we are even able to slip into a tiny black hole.

[jerpoint]

If we don't start running it, we will be forced to sit and wonder what would happen if we did.

As for the potential knowledge gained, I believe modern civilizations don't advance technologically unless they are willing to make progress in science.

[cyborgdreamer]

I think I saw a documentary on Large Hadron Collider once. If I remember correctly, they said that any black hole it produced would be so small that it would evaporate into Hawking radiation before it could absorb any of the matter around it.

[Luna]

Just keep a box full of anti-matter near by

[freethinker]

There is no mechanism by which the LHC could create a stable black hole that would accrete the earth before the sun destroys it in approximately 5 billion years. Based on observational evidence (neutron stars), it is very very very unlikely that a destructive black hole will be created by the LHC, even if hawking radiation and quantum mechanics are wrong.

[mentatpsi]

There is no mechanism by which the LHC could create a stable black hole that would accrete the earth before the sun destroys it in approximately 5 billion years. Based on observational evidence (neutron stars), it is very very very unlikely that a destructive black hole will be created by the LHC, even if hawking radiation and quantum mechanics are wrong.

What is the probability of such a collision within a neutron star? If it is extremely low yet still possible, it could account for certain black holes. Plus if this experiment is to be taking place constantly, then won't over a period of time the probability bring certain events into a more realistic setting. I'm sure these aren't great arguments, hence why i'm not strongly against it. Black holes have always scared me a bit, suppose it's that primitive fear of unknown manifestation, or more importantly that spaghetti goodness going in .

I'm still wondering what potential uses we'll have for these discovery (or a better understanding of the big bang), since there's always a border between theoretical and practical physics. Perhaps a ripple effect will take place to illuminate other areas? I don't know too much, but i'm interested where you guys think this stuff will take us.

[freethinker]

If you go to your google browser and type "LSAG CERN", you get, as the very first link, the following presentation:

http://lhc2008.web.c...uments/LSAG.pdf

This is a presentation by Michelangelo Mangano of the LSAG. You can read through the arguments presented right there.

They are paying attention to the absolute worst case scenarios that you all have posited, and have concluded that there is no credible or reasonable threat.

Summary of Reasons:
1) If black holes are produced at the LHC in any meaningful way, in order to be stable, then quantum mechanics is incorrect. This is aside from the blackbody radiation from Hawking radiation. Therefore, for a black hole to be stable, both Hawking radiation must be false, and quantum mechanics must be false. The odds of this are very very low.

2) There is absolutely no guarantee of black hole production at CERN to begin with.

3) Even IF black holes are stable (i.e. quantum mechanics are incorrect and Hawking radiation is false... already extraordinarily unlikely), there is a study ongoing to deal explicitly with this absolute worst case scenario to allay your fears. The heart of the study relies on proving that microscopic black holes will be captured by neutron stars, and given the assumption that the LHC will produce them at all, one can predict the number of these things that would be flying around our neighborhood of the universe. Since neutron stars are very very very dense, they will attract any doomsday black holes. The preliminary results from this study show that the time that a neutron star would take to attract such a doomsday black hole is about 100 million years, which is less than the lifetimes of actual neutron stars observed. They will be finalizing their calculation and publishing their results, however at this point it is completely unreasonable to expect that the LHC will result in any credible danger to anyone.

I hope that you send the $500 to Michelangelo and the rest of the LSAG, maybe they can get some nice champagne for our collaborations to drink when the first beams collide in August or September.

http://www.lhcconcer...r...p?f=2&t=129

[edward]

Run it! I say, reality, space time what have you needs a little shaking up

Seriously though seems a lot of waste not to run the thing.

[edward]

What is the projected date for collisions to actually begin. August? I need to know so I can be on the look out for time travelers and strange phenomena.

[JonesGuy]

If you're watching documentaries which make you nervous about the LHC, you're watching the wrong type of documentaries and your BS detector isn't working.

[mentatpsi]

If you're watching documentaries which make you nervous about the LHC, you're watching the wrong type of documentaries and your BS detector isn't working.

sometimes the BS detector requires some more specific knowledge. but a common sense BS detecting question would be; why would a major majority of scientists feel confident experimenting with a potentially globally devastating experiment?

Anyways, what do you guys hope is discovered with the LHC? What implications will it have on our understanding?

[JonesGuy]

Holy Smokes, that last post of mind looks so rude now. Sorry about the tone!

[mentatpsi]

Holy Smokes, that last post of mind looks so rude now. Sorry about the tone!

haha, not really... was direct and to the point lol

[Liquidus]

There's no real justifiable reason why it shouldn't be run. People who believe it's going to create a black hole that will swallow our universe are likely the same people who believe Jesus is coming to see us soon, the possibilities are so remotely low that they're not even considerable.

Ask the thousands of scientists itching to get this thing started and the billions of dollars it's cost to build, this is just the next step in human potential.

Edited by G Snake, 07 June 2008 - 04:16 AM.

[mentatpsi]

There's no real justifiable reason why it shouldn't be run. People who believe it's going to create a black hole that will swallow our universe are likely the same people who believe Jesus is coming to see us soon, the possibilities are so remotely low that they're not even considerable.

Ask the thousands of scientists itching to get this thing started and the billions of dollars it's cost to build, this is just the next step in human potential.

stop saying jesus won't come back... he's my health insurance damn it... lol i'm jk...

ok, it's the next step, but what are some things we'll develop from it, i'm just curious...

[forever freedom]

There's no real justifiable reason why it shouldn't be run. People who believe it's going to create a black hole that will swallow our universe are likely the same people who believe Jesus is coming to see us soon, the possibilities are so remotely low that they're not even considerable.

Ask the thousands of scientists itching to get this thing started and the billions of dollars it's cost to build, this is just the next step in human potential.

stop saying jesus won't come back... he's my health insurance damn it... lol i'm jk...

ok, it's the next step, but what are some things we'll develop from it, i'm just curious...

yea i don't know either. not much of a physics wiz. all i know is that it's going to increase our knowledge of the higgs bosons thing and that will increase our knowledge of the subatomic world. i'm all for anything that increases our scientific knowledge.

[ikaros]

What is the projected date for collisions to actually begin. August? I need to know so I can be on the look out for time travelers and strange phenomena.

Yes. Anybody know the date? Need to make me some popcorn and start watching some spacetime freakshow.

[forever freedom]

What is the projected date for collisions to actually begin. August? I need to know so I can be on the look out for time travelers and strange phenomena.

Yes. Anybody know the date? Need to make me some popcorn and start watching some spacetime freakshow.

It will be activated in, as of now, 19 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes, and 44 secs (of course now its less lol).

Large Hadron Collider Countdown

[mentatpsi]

this is awesome... the dramatic upbeat music i'm listening to right now is making this countdown rather exciting lol .

Edited by mysticpsi, 18 June 2008 - 08:10 PM.

[freethinker]

All, the official LSAG safety report has been published and is now accessible:

* http://public.web.ce.../Safety-en.html (Summary)
* http://lsag.web.cern...LSAG-Report.pdf (Review of the Safety of LHC Collisions)
* http://lsag.web.cern...TH_2008-025.pdf (Official Report)

All immortalists, rejoice!!!!

[VictorBjoerk]

Great!

[Live Forever]

Just a little more than 5 days now, according to http://www.lhcountdown.com/ !!

[mentatpsi]

Just a little more than 5 days now, according to http://www.lhcountdown.com/ !!

great, i almost forgot about this thing. We should host a "yay, the earth is not a black hole" day right after. Who's in?