61 replies to this topic

[Nihilated]

Is it possible to sustain the universe's existence through the use of technology?

[Cyberbrain]

Maybe. Some predict if we ever reach a type III civilization, we'll be able to save our universe, or create a new. We might also be able to exist as pan dimensional beings in the metaverse (see m-theory).

Edited by Kostas, 13 June 2008 - 04:15 AM.

[Luna]

Yes, physics.

[VictorBjoerk]

difficult question to speculate about...........

[forever freedom]

I think it is, but only time will tell.

[ben_f]

Hypothetical if we could live forever then the sun would become a problem


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The" blazing ball of hot hydrogen that warms our planet and provides energy for life won't be around forever. But how long will the sun last?Stars, including the sun, have a clear life cycle - a birth, childhood, adulthood and death.Stars come in many sizes, temperatures and shades of brightness and color. Scientists give them names such as yellow dwarfs, red giants and pulsars.Stars are born from wispy clouds of dust and debris floating in the space between other stars. By the attraction of gravity, scattered atoms are drawn together. As the dust gets closer and closer, it forms a star.Tightly packed atoms create a pressure inside the star ball so high that it starts an atomic reaction. Under this great pressure, groups of four hydrogen atoms fuse together into one helium atom, and it gives off energy.

This energy produces the warmth and brightness of the sunshine that falls on us.Our sun, a yellow-dwarf star, was formed, and its fires started, about 5 billion years ago.Stars the size of our sun have enough hydrogen to burn for about 10 billion years. Our sun already has used up half its fuel.In 5 billion years more, our sun will have converted its hydrogen to helium. It will grow larger but cooler, and it will become a red giant. It will be as big as the orbits of Earth or Mars. (Mercury and Venus, which are closer to the sun than Earth, will be burned up completely.)


Earth will have a larger orbit than it does now, but the red-giant sun will still be hot enough to bake everything on Earth into brick.Our red-giant sun will begin to burn its helium atoms, and they will fuse into atoms of carbon. After many millions of years, the helium will be completely used up.The sun will blow part of its carbon remains into space as a powerful wind. The remaining electrons will collapse into a white dwarf, a star as small as Earth but much heavier and brighter.As the white-dwarf sun cools, it will turn Earth into an icy globe. Since all this will take billions of years, we don't need to worry about the sun failing in our lifetime. There will be warmth and energy for ages to come

Edited by ben_f, 30 June 2008 - 10:25 AM.

[VictorBjoerk]

I think that there is no doubt that this problem could be solved in such a enormous time...........

[Forever21]

I forgot the name of the show I saw on TV but in it an astrophysicist said yes universe will end but advanced beings can generate/create a new universe. Others say we can just move to another universe or dimension.

Edited by Forever21, 30 June 2008 - 01:29 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

yes, but we may start a new one (read 'Year Million: Science at the Far Edge of Knowledge' for some current views on the issue) ultimately though, as Sam989 said, "Only time will tell"

[Heliotrope]

i think it'll end, everything that has a beginning most likely has an end, but we may save it with technology or transfer to another "place" , dimension etc.


But that's got be at least billions up billions of years away, we've time and if you really live that long, you can worry about it then , by then i suppose living after billions of years would SEEM like you've lived for countless lives and spent an eternity, very small chance the person does not die before then , die by accident, disease, murder or the choice of suicide

[DukeNukem]

We have bigger fish to fry before worrying about saving the universe. ;-)

However, if we live long enough then it might be possible for us to create a lifeboat universe. For example, let's say we have the knowledge to do this in 200 years, we should do it asap, and possible tune it to have the exact best parameters to serve our needs. (It might be that duplicating the conditions of our own universe is the best approach, or we might make tweaks that lead to even better conditions.) Once we've created a lifeboat universe, it will need billions of years to evolve before we can take up residence on newly formed star systems with planets.

Anyway, for now good science fiction.

[Heliotrope]

Hey nice idea dukenukem, a lifeboat universe!

However, some problems with the idea may be that there is no where else to create it now except inside our very own universe! there's no space elsewhere, even after we created it, like a mini-universe within our normal universe (analogous to an island within another island; like if Australia is our universe, maybe we can create a man-made island where the island=baby universe on a huge lake in Australia),

so Australia = parent universe
island on buffer lake zone= baby universe or lifeboat universe

then when the parent universe dies, the daughter universe likely will die with the parent. If we throw it out of our universe somehow and let it evolve for billions of years to get ready, we'd need find a way to leap-frog from our dying universe to that lifeboat. But I guess when Australia is destroyed, the artificial island is destroyed too.

I read in magazines that we possibly live in a multi-verse with many so called universes like ours (but w/ different sets of laws of Physics and matter) sort of connected to our universe in a way. then we can tunnel from one to the other , from the older dying one to a young one next to us until we run out of UNIVERSE then we're dead! May have to deal with different laws of physics though

Edited by HYP86, 01 July 2008 - 03:21 AM.

[Shannon Vyff]

Dukenukem--great to see you! Love your idea too, similar ideas are in 'Year Million'-- it is a fascinating read.

[cyborgdreamer]

Do you think it will ever be possible to build a universe where it's phyically impossible for conscious beings to die against their will?

[Heliotrope]

to cyborgdreamer, i think it's possible!

back to the Australia=Universe analogy i used two posts above, if we build a universe, the greatest problem is not to let it die like the parent universe or sucked in by the whirlpool of death generated by the death of Our Current Universe. It's also easier to use an existing universe if there IS one. We can leap-frog and island-hop to New Zealand for example, and in that little universe, the diff set of laws of physics may make it phyically impossible for conscious beings to die against their will! If our luck is not so good, we'd tunnel to Antarctica and freeze to death and only few of us will survive in the uninhabitable new universe.

Dukenukem's lifeboat universe will have to grow tremendously or we'd be lost in the voidy voidy vaccuum sea! it's very difficult to even to create a new island , so we'd have to make the lifeboat universe bigger and bigger, from a boat to sea-stead to sealand to island to continent , all the while making sure it does not spontaneously combust or endanger parent universe

Edited by HYP86, 02 July 2008 - 12:39 AM.

[jCole]

One of the current, widely accepted theories, is that dark energy (which is expanding the universe) will win out over gravity in the end, and expand the universe til it dies a cold death.

We're talking trillions upon trillions of years from now tho.

Edited by jCole, 22 August 2008 - 05:04 PM.

[Luna]

One of the current, widely accepted theories, is that dark energy (which is expanding the universe) will win out over gravity in the end, and expand the universe til it dies a cold death.

We're talking trillions upon trillions of years from now tho.

I don't think trillions upon trillions of years is comforting anyone.

But what is, the fact that if the universe is expanding rather than collapsing, as long as you can keep one galaxy or at least your own planet together (as they did say it will not cause the result known as the big rip), then it is not a problem.
But you do need a refreshable energy source and maintenance.

[Heliotrope]

One of the current, widely accepted theories, is that dark energy (which is expanding the universe) will win out over gravity in the end, and expand the universe til it dies a cold death.

We're talking trillions upon trillions of years from now tho.

I don't think trillions upon trillions of years is comforting anyone.

But what is, the fact that if the universe is expanding rather than collapsing, as long as you can keep one galaxy or at least your own planet together (as they did say it will not cause the result known as the big rip), then it is not a problem.
But you do need a refreshable energy source and maintenance.

i can't even imagine the length of trillions of years, nevermind living that long. If i get to live to be trillions years old, then it's comforting for me, practically immortal , even if die in the cold death of univerrse

[forever freedom]

One of the current, widely accepted theories, is that dark energy (which is expanding the universe) will win out over gravity in the end, and expand the universe til it dies a cold death.

We're talking trillions upon trillions of years from now tho.

I don't think trillions upon trillions of years is comforting anyone.

But what is, the fact that if the universe is expanding rather than collapsing, as long as you can keep one galaxy or at least your own planet together (as they did say it will not cause the result known as the big rip), then it is not a problem.
But you do need a refreshable energy source and maintenance.

i can't even imagine the length of trillions of years, nevermind living that long. If i get to live to be trillions years old, then it's comforting for me, practically immortal , even if die in the cold death of univerrse

trillions of years... if we survive until then i really don't think that anything could be a significant threat to us, other than we destroying ourselves.

[vyntager]

i can't even imagine the length of trillions of years, nevermind living that long. If i get to live to be trillions years old, then it's comforting for me, practically immortal , even if die in the cold death of univerrse

Sure is long. Actually, 70 years seems pretty long too when you think about it, and many people sure think that way.

Same question, whether for 70 or a trillion trillion years : once it's done, are you going to have any regrets for the last day of your life ?

One of the current, widely accepted theories, is that dark energy (which is expanding the universe) will win out over gravity in the end, and expand the universe til it dies a cold death.

We're talking trillions upon trillions of years from now tho.

I don't think trillions upon trillions of years is comforting anyone.

But what is, the fact that if the universe is expanding rather than collapsing, as long as you can keep one galaxy or at least your own planet together (as they did say it will not cause the result known as the big rip), then it is not a problem.
But you do need a refreshable energy source and maintenance.

Well then it is a problem, isn't it ? A galaxy can only live on for as long as its last star, or maybe till the last bit of matter has been converted into energy through the use of micro black holes. If you only have a limited supply of stars, or mass-energy, you can't survive your fuel. An open universe makes it more likely for us to die eventually.

Or did you mean that we just don't need to worry about our own matter, or even atoms being ripped apart by the expansion of the universe, eventually ? Or decaying, for that matter.

[Mind]

i think it'll end, everything that has a beginning most likely has an end

I am of the mindset that there was no true beginning and thus there will be no permanent end. The universe (everything) has existed forever and will continue doing so. Of course, this kind-of philosophical treatment leads to the conclusion that everything that will happen in the future has already occurred at some time in the past (in fact, everything, every event, has occurred over and over, etc). Hard to come to grips with.

[jackinbox]

What you don't get is that WE are the universe. As Carl Sagan said, "we are a way for the universe to understand itself". I like the idea developed in Scott Adams's book, God's Debris. Even if it's not mean to be serious, I find the idea compelling.

[Heliotrope]

What you don't get is that WE are the universe. As Carl Sagan said, "we are a way for the universe to understand itself". I like the idea developed in Scott Adams's book, God's Debris. Even if it's not mean to be serious, I find the idea compelling.

agreed, we're at least part of the universe. I think another quote is "We are the universe becoming conscious of itself" "We are the universe becoming aware of itself" great conscious/awareness shall commence

it brings up questions though. do we MUST die when universe dies? Will universe die? I think it'll likely end and begin again, but there should be ways to escape the end!!

Edited by HYP86, 30 August 2008 - 03:16 AM.

[Eternal]

What you don't get is that WE are the universe. As Carl Sagan said, "we are a way for the universe to understand itself". I like the idea developed in Scott Adams's book, God's Debris. Even if it's not mean to be serious, I find the idea compelling.

agreed, we're at least part of the universe. I think another quote is "We are the universe becoming conscious of itself" "We are the universe becoming aware of itself" great conscious/awareness shall commence

it brings up questions though. do we MUST die when universe dies? Will universe die? I think it'll likely end and begin again, but there should be ways to escape the end!!

Well science and the universe has shown itself many times to be stranger than fiction. So who's to say that the more conscious beings that continue to extend there life, don't automatically prolong it's end? Actually I more think that's it's completely ignorant that were even pressuring ourselves in the slightest to stop it from ending. Not only because of the rediculous amount of time it is before this happens but also because the universe is so big that I say it's %100 likely that some other intelligent life out there already knows how to prolong it for eternity and will put it in action when the time comes.

[Luna]

What you don't get is that WE are the universe. As Carl Sagan said, "we are a way for the universe to understand itself". I like the idea developed in Scott Adams's book, God's Debris. Even if it's not mean to be serious, I find the idea compelling.

agreed, we're at least part of the universe. I think another quote is "We are the universe becoming conscious of itself" "We are the universe becoming aware of itself" great conscious/awareness shall commence

it brings up questions though. do we MUST die when universe dies? Will universe die? I think it'll likely end and begin again, but there should be ways to escape the end!!

Well science and the universe has shown itself many times to be stranger than fiction. So who's to say that the more conscious beings that continue to extend there life, don't automatically prolong it's end? Actually I more think that's it's completely ignorant that were even pressuring ourselves in the slightest to stop it from ending. Not only because of the rediculous amount of time it is before this happens but also because the universe is so big that I say it's %100 likely that some other intelligent life out there already knows how to prolong it for eternity and will put it in action when the time comes.

You must realize species such as us, immortals, cannot just sit up quietly, even when they are yet to be able to do anything.

[DukeNukem]

i think it'll end, everything that has a beginning most likely has an end

I am of the mindset that there was no true beginning and thus there will be no permanent end. The universe (everything) has existed forever and will continue doing so. Of course, this kind-of philosophical treatment leads to the conclusion that everything that will happen in the future has already occurred at some time in the past (in fact, everything, every event, has occurred over and over, etc). Hard to come to grips with.

Mind, nothing has existed forever. In fact, if I had to bet, I'd bet that time itself isn't a fundamental feature of nature, and therefore the concept of forever is meaningless. I suspect we'll never discover a time particle nor a time field. Time as we call it is really just a stand-in for the word change. Things change, and we call it time. It's entirely natural for us to invent the concept of time, because we have a "past" and we know there's a "future." But, I suspect that as far as nature is concerned, there is no past and future, only a now. We have broken down the day/night changing cycle into 24 hours, and invented machinery to measure time. But in reality, we're just measuring change.

When you come to realize that time is a human expression of change, it really makes a lot of sense. For many people I've talked to about this, though, it's too hard of a concept to grasp. Once grasped, it makes absolute sense. Even Einstein himself talked about the non-existence of time within a few years of his death, clearly coming to realize it might not actually exist.

Why have time travelers from our future never visited us? Because there is no future, and there's no time to travel through. What we perceive as time is merely change. The universe has changed and continues to change. But time plays no role in the universe.

When an object is in a strong gravitational field, for example, time does not slow down -- but the object experiences change to a lesser degree.

Anyway, this is a big subject, and there are numerous respected physicists who also strong suspect time is a human concept.

[Luna]

i think it'll end, everything that has a beginning most likely has an end

I am of the mindset that there was no true beginning and thus there will be no permanent end. The universe (everything) has existed forever and will continue doing so. Of course, this kind-of philosophical treatment leads to the conclusion that everything that will happen in the future has already occurred at some time in the past (in fact, everything, every event, has occurred over and over, etc). Hard to come to grips with.

Mind, nothing has existed forever. In fact, if I had to bet, I'd bet that time itself isn't a fundamental feature of nature, and therefore the concept of forever is meaningless. I suspect we'll never discover a time particle nor a time field. Time as we call it is really just a stand-in for the word change. Things change, and we call it time. It's entirely natural for us to invent the concept of time, because we have a "past" and we know there's a "future." But, I suspect that as far as nature is concerned, there is no past and future, only a now. We have broken down the day/night changing cycle into 24 hours, and invented machinery to measure time. But in reality, we're just measuring change.

When you come to realize that time is a human expression of change, it really makes a lot of sense. For many people I've talked to about this, though, it's too hard of a concept to grasp. Once grasped, it makes absolute sense. Even Einstein himself talked about the non-existence of time within a few years of his death, clearly coming to realize it might not actually exist.

Why have time travelers from our future never visited us? Because there is no future, and there's no time to travel through. What we perceive as time is merely change. The universe has changed and continues to change. But time plays no role in the universe.

When an object is in a strong gravitational field, for example, time does not slow down -- but the object experiences change to a lesser degree.

Anyway, this is a big subject, and there are numerous respected physicists who also strong suspect time is a human concept.

Finally someone who agrees time does not exist

[Eternal]

i think it'll end, everything that has a beginning most likely has an end

I am of the mindset that there was no true beginning and thus there will be no permanent end. The universe (everything) has existed forever and will continue doing so. Of course, this kind-of philosophical treatment leads to the conclusion that everything that will happen in the future has already occurred at some time in the past (in fact, everything, every event, has occurred over and over, etc). Hard to come to grips with.

Mind, nothing has existed forever. In fact, if I had to bet, I'd bet that time itself isn't a fundamental feature of nature, and therefore the concept of forever is meaningless. I suspect we'll never discover a time particle nor a time field. Time as we call it is really just a stand-in for the word change. Things change, and we call it time. It's entirely natural for us to invent the concept of time, because we have a "past" and we know there's a "future." But, I suspect that as far as nature is concerned, there is no past and future, only a now. We have broken down the day/night changing cycle into 24 hours, and invented machinery to measure time. But in reality, we're just measuring change.

When you come to realize that time is a human expression of change, it really makes a lot of sense. For many people I've talked to about this, though, it's too hard of a concept to grasp. Once grasped, it makes absolute sense. Even Einstein himself talked about the non-existence of time within a few years of his death, clearly coming to realize it might not actually exist.

Why have time travelers from our future never visited us? Because there is no future, and there's no time to travel through. What we perceive as time is merely change. The universe has changed and continues to change. But time plays no role in the universe.

When an object is in a strong gravitational field, for example, time does not slow down -- but the object experiences change to a lesser degree.

Anyway, this is a big subject, and there are numerous respected physicists who also strong suspect time is a human concept.

Finally someone who agrees time does not exist

No, I too agree that time does not exist, like of course it doesn't as a physical entity but it does exist as a concept but it's entirely voluntary.

[DukeNukem]

Time is much like god. We'd still create the concept whether or not it really existed.

Basically, both are concepts from the past used to explain the world, and they've stuck in present times. Time is even more intuitive than god, though, because we are born, grow older, and die. The world changes. We have a past and a future. We call all of this ongoing change time. And it makes 100% sense. Yet, just because we perceive time doesn't mean that it exists as a fundamental feature of the universe.

[Luna]

Time is much like god. We'd still create the concept whether or not it really existed.

Basically, both are concepts from the past used to explain the world, and they've stuck in present times. Time is even more intuitive than god, though, because we are born, grow older, and die. The world changes. We have a past and a future. We call all of this ongoing change time. And it makes 100% sense. Yet, just because we perceive time doesn't mean that it exists as a fundamental feature of the universe.

Though it would be more accurate to say what we perceive is change, and change is a part of the universe.
Yet, there is a big difference between time and change.