51 replies to this topic

[davpet]

From : http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

In vivo stimulation of de novo collagen production caused by cross-linked hyaluronic acid dermal filler injections in photodamaged human skin.
Wang F, Garza LA, Kang S, Varani J, Orringer JS, Fisher GJ, Voorhees JJ.Department of Dermatology, University of Michigan Medical School, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA. frawang@umich.edu

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether endogenous synthesis of new extracellular matrix may contribute to the degree and duration of clinical benefits derived from cross-linked hyaluronic acid dermal filler injections. DESIGN: In vivo biochemical analyses after filler injections. SETTING: Academic referral center. PARTICIPANTS: Eleven healthy volunteers (mean age, 74 years) with photodamaged forearm skin. Interventions Filler and vehicle (isotonic sodium chloride) injected into forearm skin and skin biopsy specimens taken 4 and 13 weeks later. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: De novo synthesis of collagen, the major structural protein of dermal extracellular matrix, was assessed using immunohistochemical analysis, quantitative polymerase chain reaction, and electron microscopy. RESULTS: Compared with controls, immunostaining in skin receiving cross-linked hyaluronic acid injections revealed increased collagen deposition around the filler. Staining for prolyl-4-hydroxylase and the C-terminal and N-terminal epitopes of type I procollagen was enhanced at 4 and 13 weeks after treatment (P<.05). Gene expression for types I and III procollagen as well as several profibrotic growth factors was also up-regulated at 4 and 13 weeks compared with controls (P<.05). Fibroblasts in filler-injected skin demonstrated a mechanically stretched appearance and a biosynthetic phenotype. In vitro, fibroblasts did not bind the filler, suggesting that cross-linked hyaluronic acid is not directly stimulatory. CONCLUSIONS: Injection of cross-linked hyaluronic acid stimulates collagen synthesis, partially restoring dermal matrix components that are lost in photodamaged skin. We hypothesize that this stimulatory effect may be induced by mechanical stretching of the dermis, which in turn leads to stretching and activation of dermal fibroblasts. These findings imply that cross-linked hyaluronic acid may be useful for stimulating collagen production therapeutically, particularly in the setting of atrophic skin conditions.

[davpet]

From : http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Facial acne and fine lines: transforming patient outcomes with plasma skin regeneration.
Potter MJ, Harrison R, Ramsden A, Bryan B, Andrews P, Gault D.RAFT Institute of Plastic Surgery, Mount Vernon Hospital, Middlesex, UK. mattpotters@hotmail.com

BACKGROUND: A novel device for skin rejuvenation has been developed and tested. The device converts a stream of nitrogen into a plasma of ionized gas, which ablates surface tissue in a controlled manner. METHODS: Eleven patients were followed up for 6 months. The results were assessed objectively using skin molds to measure skin irregularity, as well subjectively using patient- and doctor-assessed parameters. RESULTS: Plasma skin regeneration was shown to reduce fine line wrinkles by an average of 24% at 6 months (P = 0.005, Mann-Whitney rank sum test) and to improve acne scarring by 23% at 6 months (P = 0.001, Mann-Whitney rank sum test). CONCLUSIONS: The main benefit of this system was that the patients had minimal erythema lasting only 1-6 days and no pigmentary changes. This is therefore a device with proven efficacy and limited morbidity.

[davpet]

Comparison Between Fractionated (Fraxel) and Plasmakinetic Skin Resurfacing for Periocular Wrinkles

Weinstein C, Da Silva K, Attalla M, Chen P

Presented at ASLMS, Orlando 2008

Background and Objectives: To compare the efficacy of fractionated skin resurfacing (Fraxel-Reliant Technologies) with Plasmakinetic skin resurfacing (Plasma Portrait PSR-Rhytec) for improvement of periocular wrinkles.

Materials and Methods: Two groups of 16 matched patients received either 1 treatment of Plasma Portrait PSR (Rhytec) or 4 treatments of the Fraxel (Reliant Technologies) for static periocular wrinkles. Plasma Portrait PSR group received 1 treatment at 3.0 J/cm^{2 2 passes. The Fraxel group received 4 treatment sessions, 4 weeks apart, at 125 MTZ/cm2, 12 m joules, 10 passes, total density of 1250 MTZ/cm2.}

Results: Two independent observers assessed the degree of improvement after 6 months. The Plasma Portrait group improved on average 83.2% in periocular wrinkles. The Fraxel group improved on average 36.8%. Healing time (return to work) for Plasma Portrait PSR was 5.6 days, while Fraxel was 1.4 days. Post Plasma PSR treatment erythema lasted 4.7 weeks, while Fraxel was 6.2 days. There were no cases of scarring or permanent hyperpigmentation in either group.

Conclusion: Plasmakinetic (Portrait PSR) appears to produce significantly more improvement in periocular wrinkles compared to commonly used fractionated (Fraxel) laser parameters. There was however more "down time" and post treatment erythema with the Plasma Portrait PSR compared with Fraxel laser.

[Eva Victoria]

Seriously, stop trolling. It's getting very tiresome, very quickly.

Yes this is a nice thread of nothing so far... The OP started by stating years of research (which typially means I googled around a bit) and posting a nice bulleted list of 'non-surgical facial rejuvenation' procedures, but no actual comments on them. Please commence with the bestowing of great knowledge on these already.

That said, I'll bite with a few. I searched around for a whole 20 minutes. :-) Some of these are not specifically related to facial volume, which seemed to get to be the focus in the last few posts. While improving volume is probably the most sigificant change for a youthful look, there are issues with sagging, pigmentations, scarring, etc. that may also need to be addressed. I have no experience or years of research, so I can't comment personally on these.


So how about CIT for scars and wrinkles? Specifically needling/dermaroller/Roll-CIT? I've seen them mentioned for years on acne and hair loss boards. I do know a few folks who have tried needling themselves, but with shorter needles in the 0.25mm-1.00mm "personal model" range mainly for increase penetration of topicals. The 1.5mm-3mm apparently are not generally recommended for home/personal use and are better suited for collagen induction.

Dermaroller's Weblog

The Victorian Cosmetic Institute - Skin Needling


Then for addressing sagging and reshaping the volume you have... Contour Thread Lifts are classified non-surgical, as they involve needle and thread and no scalpel. Scalpel or not, still pretty invasive. Available since around 2004, typically $3k-8k (depending on who does it and the number of zones). Good for 3-5 years:

Contour Thread Lift


Table comparing surgical treatments to non-surgical treatment (includes links only for the non-surgical treatments the site provides):

The Victorian Cosmetic Institute - Non Surgical Facial Shaping?


Lastly from that same Victorian Cosmetic website is a page about Facial Volume Loss


Edit: corrected a screwed up link... which screwed up the rest which...

Hi Frank!

What a wonderful and informative research you you have contributed with!
I loved all this new info!
Have already ordered my very own Dermaroller. Not sure that I'll dare to use it though

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Hi Frank!

What a wonderful and informative research you you have contributed with!
I loved all this new info!
Have already ordered my very own Dermaroller. Not sure that I'll dare to use it though

Hey there Eva,

My addition to the thread was just the results of a few quick searches (and remembering chats on other boards), I am not very knowledgeable on these subjects, but have an interest of course. Which dermaroller model did you purchase?

I see Davepet has posted a good bit more, so I am off to read those.

[davpet]

Hi Frank!

What a wonderful and informative research you you have contributed with!
I loved all this new info!
Have already ordered my very own Dermaroller. Not sure that I'll dare to use it though

From :http://www.lvcosmeticsurgery.com/

Q&A with plastic surgeon Dr. Julio Garcia :

any opinion on the Derma-roller? thanks Answer: yes, waste of money. JG 3.19.08



<LI>How effective do you think a dermaroller (skin needling device) coupled with a potent retinoid will be for collagen regeneration? Equivalent to fraxel? Answer: not very effective but close to a Fraxel, which I think is not very effective. JG 8.9.07


Hi Dr. Garcia. I read about a dermal roller device that sounded like a ripoff, but wanted your opinion about it. It has very tiny needles that you roll over the surface of the face to create micro channels that are supposed to help facial creams penetrate better. Is there anything to this or is it b.s.? (http://www.vivida.co...metic/index.php

Answer: save your money. JG 9.21.06

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Frank!

What a wonderful and informative research you you have contributed with!
I loved all this new info!
Have already ordered my very own Dermaroller. Not sure that I'll dare to use it though

Hey there Eva,

My addition to the thread was just the results of a few quick searches (and remembering chats on other boards), I am not very knowledgeable on these subjects, but have an interest of course. Which dermaroller model did you purchase?

I see Davepet has posted a good bit more, so I am off to read those.

I ordered the C8 model http://www.dermaroll...ermaroller.html

from this site:

http://www.dermaroll...ecareroller.php

I also liked very much your link to loss of Facial volume. Have always believed that it was fundamental to have facial volume to look young(er). Which is why I always say that protection against the sun is the best weapon we have since UVR destroys collagen and elastin fibers hence depriving the face of crucial volume.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

From :http://www.lvcosmeticsurgery.com/

Q&A with plastic surgeon Dr. Julio Garcia :

any opinion on the Derma-roller? thanks Answer: yes, waste of money. JG 3.19.08
...

Yes I'm seen that type answer from others too, so I wouldn't put too high hopes in it either. Here is another one from Dr. Garcia: "I think the effects from dermarollers is a waste of time, there is not enough of an injury to help stimulate collagen I am afraid. JG 1.5.08". Any talk of this on that SmartSkinCare forum you frequented? Most of the comments I have seen have been on vendor sites, but you would think there would be a good number of anecdotal comments on the skincare sites given how long these things have been around. Possibly are as I haven't looked too hard (will tonight). Of course the thought of rolling small needles over their face probably turned a good number of people away. That said, lots of people will endure anything for a good look as the end results.

Are you currently using anything you have posted about, such as botox?

[davpet]

Any talk of this on that SmartSkinCare forum you frequented?

I never said i frequented the SmartSkinCare forum ?

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Any talk of this on that SmartSkinCare forum you frequented?

I never said i frequented the SmartSkinCare forum ?

It is possible that the 'davpet' there is someone else, but if so they are apparently copying your posts:

New Rice Extract Stimulates Collagen Synthesis

New Rice Extract Stimulates Collagen Synthesis

[davpet]

Any talk of this on that SmartSkinCare forum you frequented?

I never said i frequented the SmartSkinCare forum ?

It is possible that the 'davpet' there is someone else, but if so they are apparently copying your posts:

New Rice Extract Stimulates Collagen Synthesis

New Rice Extract Stimulates Collagen Synthesis

I never SAID i frequented the SmartSkinCare forum ?

[Matthias]

"Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation"

Apparently there are different interpretations of it's meaning.
That's life. Stay to the topic and don't tease each other.

[Ben]

nvm

Edited by Ben - Aus, 09 July 2008 - 10:17 AM.

[Clacksberg]

Has any decent up to date research been done on micro needling/collagen induction.

I do it with 1.5mm roller. It improves skin colour. But i'd say the tightnings due to micro swelling.

 

 

[mustardseed41]

Has any decent up to date research been done on micro needling/collagen induction.

I do it with 1.5mm roller. It improves skin colour. But i'd say the tightnings due to micro swelling.

 

 

 

How often are you rolling?

Edited by mustardseed41, 26 June 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Clacksberg]

About every 2 months with 1.5mm. Have been doing it for 2 years. Yeh it's rejuvinated things a bit. But the effect was really noticable at first but now the skins become acustomed to it lol!

There's very little research on it but it's sold in clinics up and down the country!?

[Deckah]

About every 2 months with 1.5mm. Have been doing it for 2 years. Yeh it's rejuvinated things a bit. But the effect was really noticable at first but now the skins become acustomed to it lol!

There's very little research on it but it's sold in clinics up and down the country!?

What are you trying to improve (skin wise)?

You can use a 0.5mm 2-3x a week and @ the same time use the 1.5mm once every 3-4 weeks.
If you're only trying to cure a few scars here and there on your face. I would suggest a 1.5 dermastamp. They just seem more targeted and you can stamp and rotate the needles much easier to cover more ground in a particular area.

[mustardseed41]

About every 2 months with 1.5mm. Have been doing it for 2 years. Yeh it's rejuvinated things a bit. But the effect was really noticable at first but now the skins become acustomed to it lol!

There's very little research on it but it's sold in clinics up and down the country!?

 

I've rolled for almost 3 years now. I was rolling with 1.5mm-2.0mm once every 5-6 weeks for most of that time but have switched my thinking some after reading Dr. Setterfield's recommendations. He recommends rolling with a 0.5mm once every 4 weeks. After a 1 week break, work up to rolling once every day with a 0.20mm-0.30mm. I use a 0.75 roller once every 4 weeks cause I'm male and we are said to have skin around 25% thicker than female. Just my thinking outside the box theory. I am also happy not to have to use a numbing cream prior to rolling. 

 

Earlier research by Dr. Fernandez is where much of the rolling info. on the internet came from. Although much of it, including Youtube videos, shows people basically butchering their skin and rolling too damn often. The science behind rolling is so young. There is no way of absolutely knowing which protocol is best. I assume you know about the monster "Dermarolling" thread on Essentialdayspa.com? Only the last 1/4 of the posts are relevant.

 

http://barefacedtrut...roneedling-egf/

Edited by mustardseed41, 27 June 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[Clacksberg]

Dekah, Mustardseed - Thanks for that info. Yeh it seems like people a promoting much less agressive rolling - but does a 0'5mm really get the collagen going compared to 1.5mm?

Yeh i dont bother with numbing cream either - i did have a derma stamp 1.5mm and was a lot less painful.

By trial and error i've found if you make your own vit c serum as i do, that you have to mix it with very hot water otherwise it wont absorb. But they say heat destroys the vit c. Kind of a trade off..

It's cleared fine wrinkles and produced better skin tone.

Thanks for the links i'll just check them out

[mustardseed41]

I used to think that a 0.5mm was only for product penetration and not long enough for collagen. I got basically all my info from the popular forum at owndoc.com and many over at essentialdayspa.com follow her directions also. Truthfully, I'm not sure what to believe. I've rolled so long with longer needles I figured it sure can't hurt to go the other direction. Setterfierfield has current research that say's a 0.5mm will promote coillagen, etc. Finding this info. on the net seems tricky. He does have an expensive book he sells and online courses. I have read he say's that daily rolling with shorter needles does more than just enhance product penetration. Something about growth factors.

 

As far as vitamin C serum goes, there are much better way's to make it than what you are doing. There are some good recipes on essentialdayspa.com.......I make my own EXACT copy of Skinceuticals CE Ferulic from a kit I buy at lotioncrafter.com

Edited by mustardseed41, 29 June 2014 - 04:06 AM.

[gt35r]

Honestly, sunscreen is by far the single best anti-aging thing; yes even better than tretinoin.

 

AS for the OP, all those things are good and all but unfortunately only address the epidermis and some of the dermis.

 

At present, I do not know of any techniques that address the following;

-Reduction of hypo dermal fat (injection are temporary)

-Sagging and atrophy of facial muscles (face lift, but that would count as invasive)

-Bone atrophy and faulty reshaping

 

Thats my main concern with cosmetic approaches.

 

Btw, if Eva can give her opinion on way(s) to prevent (or if possible) reverse the three things I mentioned that would be awesome

 

 

Edited by gt35r, 29 June 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[Clacksberg]

The thing is, vitamins inside the body show a U shaped response curve, what i can gather on Longecity.

So an extension of this, too much vit c serum on the skin may not do anything - the balance as got to be right. Anybody now about that?