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The Twelve Tribes: an emerging culture?


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#1 william7

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 05:35 PM


Whenever you guys get a chance, you should checkout the videos below about how the government in Big Brotherly fashion tried to take the children from a Twelve Tribes community in Vermont back in 1984 like they did to the polygamist sect of Mormons in Texas recently. Apparently, the government's goal was to put an end to their church as is mentioned in the part 3 video.

Lately, I've been studying the Twelve Tribe website and conversing with them by telephone. I'm utterly amazed at how well they understand the Bible and are putting it into practice in such a positive way. They do admit they're not perfect yet and there's room for improvement. Notice on their web page entitled A Brand New Culture where they say:

The meals we eat together are simple and nourishing, not driven by "health fads," but simply made from whole fresh foods. We like to focus on careful preparation and serving, rather than richness of ingredients, because we know that our Father cares about what we put into our bodies. We want to live a long life so we can serve the One who saved us from death.

http://twelvetribes....ur-culture.html

I'm sure the members of Imminst can appreciate their desire to live long healthy lives on earth.

Children of the Island Pond Raid: An Emerging Culture - P.1

P.2

P.3

P.4

P.5

P.6

P.7


They do, however, have their critics.

Community or Cult

Edited by elijah3, 12 July 2008 - 05:38 PM.


#2 Brainbox

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 06:17 PM

Interesting. And scary as well.

Good to witness again the importance of an independent and secularised legal system and independent journalism. Mistakes are bound to happen, we are only human. The total chain of responsibilities should contain sufficient quality to correct even the hugest mistakes.
On a more psychological level, it's intriguing how (I suppose) individuals are able to project their own irrational fears on people or subcultures that step just a tiny bit out of "normality". Makes you wonder what happened to the initial prosecutors when they were kids.

Thanks for sharing, Elijah! ;)

#3 william7

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 08:01 PM

Glad you liked the videos SubZero. Do you think you could handle living in a Twelve Tribes community? They have a community in Germany which I believe is the closest to where you're at. The German community experienced severe persecution from the government as a result of homeschooling their children. http://twelvetribes....-to-prison.html.

Edited by elijah3, 12 July 2008 - 08:03 PM.


#4 Brainbox

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 07:03 PM

Glad you liked the videos SubZero. Do you think you could handle living in a Twelve Tribes community?

No, not interested. My point was that justice should prevail at all cost.

#5 nabashalam

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 02:12 AM

I am a ex-member of the Twelve Tribes destructive high control Christian Fundamentlist group. I lived with them for 7 years. I am now the News Editor for FACTNet which is the largest and most respected anti-cult website on the net. I encourage you research the post I ran on the similarities of both raids. http://factnet.org/?p=362

Also take a look at this site which is the best on the web speaking on the 1984 raid and telling the "other side" of the Twelve Tribes story. http://yattt.blogspo...current-tt.html

Then you can tell me how wonderful this group is...

You might also want to watch this trailer of a new DVD about the life inside the FLDS

#6 Bghead8che

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 04:18 AM

Whenever you guys get a chance, you should checkout the videos below about how the government in Big Brotherly fashion tried to take the children from a Twelve Tribes community in Vermont back in 1984 like they did to the polygamist sect of Mormons in Texas recently. Apparently, the government's goal was to put an end to their church as is mentioned in the part 3 video.

Lately, I've been studying the Twelve Tribe website and conversing with them by telephone. I'm utterly amazed at how well they understand the Bible and are putting it into practice in such a positive way. They do admit they're not perfect yet and there's room for improvement. Notice on their web page entitled A Brand New Culture where they say:

The meals we eat together are simple and nourishing, not driven by "health fads," but simply made from whole fresh foods. We like to focus on careful preparation and serving, rather than richness of ingredients, because we know that our Father cares about what we put into our bodies. We want to live a long life so we can serve the One who saved us from death.

http://twelvetribes....ur-culture.html

I'm sure the members of Imminst can appreciate their desire to live long healthy lives on earth.

Children of the Island Pond Raid: An Emerging Culture - P.1

[videos removed - see above]

They do, however, have their critics.

Community or Cult
[video removed - see above]


The sect your refer to is not "Mormon". Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are not members of the LDS church nor are they Mormon. I really hope you don't try and dispute this fact as I am confident that no Polygamists are Mormons and no Mormons are Polygamists. :-)

reason for edit: removed dupe links to videos

Edited by maestro949, 15 July 2008 - 02:48 PM.


#7 nabashalam

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 06:16 AM

The sect your refer to is not "Mormon". Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are not members of the LDS church nor are they Mormon. I really hope you don't try and dispute this fact as I am confident that no Polygamists are Mormons and no Mormons are Polygamists. :-)


Make that false confidence! Get your facts straight!

The FLDS are fundamentalist Mormons!!! Your splitting hairs!!! http://merrywives.bl...s-and-flds.html

from that link...

“The LDS Church has renounced polygamy. Anyone who believes in polygamy is ex-communicated. The LDS believes in the family unit of one man, one woman and their children.”
Correction: Polygamy is still an essential doctrine in LDS theology and is still practiced in certain forms by members of the LDS Church. While the LDS Church does not presently allow members to have more than one living spouse, the Church does allow widowers to marry again for “time and all eternity” if they so desire. For example, two current apostles, Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks, have both married a second wife for eternity. Apostle Oaks has told LDS Church members that he expects to continue marriages with both women simultaneously in heaven, and thus, according to LDS theology, he plans to procreate children with both of his wives after the resurrection. Major LDS Church authorities and theologians, such as Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, have stated that the Church will restore the full practice of polygamy after the Second Coming of Christ, if not before.



And the original focus of this thread was on the Twelve Tribes and the FLDS and the similarities between the raids! and BTW FYI the same destrcuctive high control is practiced in both of these groups.

reason for edit: added missing opening quote block

Edited by maestro949, 15 July 2008 - 02:45 PM.


#8 Bghead8che

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 04:12 PM

The sect your refer to is not "Mormon". Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are not members of the LDS church nor are they Mormon. I really hope you don't try and dispute this fact as I am confident that no Polygamists are Mormons and no Mormons are Polygamists. :-)


Make that false confidence! Get your facts straight!

The FLDS are fundamentalist Mormons!!! Your splitting hairs!!! http://merrywives.bl...s-and-flds.html

from that link...

“The LDS Church has renounced polygamy. Anyone who believes in polygamy is ex-communicated. The LDS believes in the family unit of one man, one woman and their children.”
Correction: Polygamy is still an essential doctrine in LDS theology and is still practiced in certain forms by members of the LDS Church. While the LDS Church does not presently allow members to have more than one living spouse, the Church does allow widowers to marry again for “time and all eternity” if they so desire. For example, two current apostles, Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks, have both married a second wife for eternity. Apostle Oaks has told LDS Church members that he expects to continue marriages with both women simultaneously in heaven, and thus, according to LDS theology, he plans to procreate children with both of his wives after the resurrection. Major LDS Church authorities and theologians, such as Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, have stated that the Church will restore the full practice of polygamy after the Second Coming of Christ, if not before.



And the original focus of this thread was on the Twelve Tribes and the FLDS and the similarities between the raids! and BTW FYI the same destrcuctive high control is practiced in both of these groups.

reason for edit: added missing opening quote block


Splitting hairs??

If FLDS are Mormons then by that rationale Catholics are Protestants and Protestants are Lutherans. After all they are all fundamentalist Christians right?

IMHO, the difference between "Mormons" and "Polygamists" could not be more striking. Just attend your average Sunday service for both. Oddly enough there are some "slight" differences for both being Mormon. Obviously the FLDS are a splinter group from the Mormon church (about 110 years ago) but they are not both Mormon. Also the media must of had their facts wrong in numerous cases because all coverage of the compound that I saw referred to the "FLDS" group. No one said they rounded up a bunch of "Mormons" down in Texas.

As for your choice of quotes which states a member is excommunicated for practicing Polygamy (a contradiction to your comment following) I have yet to meet a practicing Mormon that has more than one wife. To keep things simple lets stick to Mormons with wives that are alive. If you can give me one example of a member of the LDS church that has more than one wife I'll eat my shorts! :-)

-Brian

P.S. My apologies to Elijah for getting off topic I just wanted to clear up the fact that there are no Mormons running around in compounds in Texas. If there were the Mormon Church would have a lot of excommunicating to do according to the quote. ;-)

#9 nabashalam

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 07:20 PM

My apologies to Eliyah ("The Lord is my God") also...

In every major religion you will find fundies/extremest and most are destructive either to their followers or the "outsiders" or both.
And when you get to the basics your main 3, Judaism, Islam and Christianity, are all cut from the same cloth! The myth of the Old Testament/Torah, coupled with a "messiah" myth! http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Jesus-Myth

http://www.pocm.info/


http://en.wikipedia...._Thousand_Faces


The question is, which is more dangerous? The ones who are "half-assed" in their faith or the ones who live it to it's extreme?

http://www.samharris...ondon_Times.pdf

OK....I'm done... For some reason I've got a big headache... ;)


The sect your refer to is not "Mormon". Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are not members of the LDS church nor are they Mormon. I really hope you don't try and dispute this fact as I am confident that no Polygamists are Mormons and no Mormons are Polygamists. :-)


Make that false confidence! Get your facts straight!

The FLDS are fundamentalist Mormons!!! Your splitting hairs!!! http://merrywives.bl...s-and-flds.html

from that link...

"The LDS Church has renounced polygamy. Anyone who believes in polygamy is ex-communicated. The LDS believes in the family unit of one man, one woman and their children."
Correction: Polygamy is still an essential doctrine in LDS theology and is still practiced in certain forms by members of the LDS Church. While the LDS Church does not presently allow members to have more than one living spouse, the Church does allow widowers to marry again for "time and all eternity" if they so desire. For example, two current apostles, Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks, have both married a second wife for eternity. Apostle Oaks has told LDS Church members that he expects to continue marriages with both women simultaneously in heaven, and thus, according to LDS theology, he plans to procreate children with both of his wives after the resurrection. Major LDS Church authorities and theologians, such as Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, have stated that the Church will restore the full practice of polygamy after the Second Coming of Christ, if not before.



And the original focus of this thread was on the Twelve Tribes and the FLDS and the similarities between the raids! and BTW FYI the same destrcuctive high control is practiced in both of these groups.

reason for edit: added missing opening quote block


Splitting hairs??

If FLDS are Mormons then by that rationale Catholics are Protestants and Protestants are Lutherans. After all they are all fundamentalist Christians right?

IMHO, the difference between "Mormons" and "Polygamists" could not be more striking. Just attend your average Sunday service for both. Oddly enough there are some "slight" differences for both being Mormon. Obviously the FLDS are a splinter group from the Mormon church (about 110 years ago) but they are not both Mormon. Also the media must of had their facts wrong in numerous cases because all coverage of the compound that I saw referred to the "FLDS" group. No one said they rounded up a bunch of "Mormons" down in Texas.

As for your choice of quotes which states a member is excommunicated for practicing Polygamy (a contradiction to your comment following) I have yet to meet a practicing Mormon that has more than one wife. To keep things simple lets stick to Mormons with wives that are alive. If you can give me one example of a member of the LDS church that has more than one wife I'll eat my shorts! :-)

-Brian

P.S. My apologies to Elijah for getting off topic I just wanted to clear up the fact that there are no Mormons running around in compounds in Texas. If there were the Mormon Church would have a lot of excommunicating to do according to the quote. ;-)



#10 william7

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 08:47 PM

Please be patient! I'm working on a response. May be tonight or tomorrow.

#11 Bghead8che

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 09:38 PM

My apologies to Eliyah ("The Lord is my God") also...

In every major religion you will find fundies/extremest and most are destructive either to their followers or the "outsiders" or both.
And when you get to the basics your main 3, Judaism, Islam and Christianity, are all cut from the same cloth! The myth of the Old Testament/Torah, coupled with a "messiah" myth! http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Jesus-Myth

http://www.pocm.info/


http://en.wikipedia...._Thousand_Faces


The question is, which is more dangerous? The ones who are "half-assed" in their faith or the ones who live it to it's extreme?

http://www.samharris...ondon_Times.pdf

OK....I'm done... For some reason I've got a big headache... ;o)


The sect your refer to is not "Mormon". Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are not members of the LDS church nor are they Mormon. I really hope you don't try and dispute this fact as I am confident that no Polygamists are Mormons and no Mormons are Polygamists. :-)


Make that false confidence! Get your facts straight!

The FLDS are fundamentalist Mormons!!! Your splitting hairs!!! http://merrywives.bl...s-and-flds.html

from that link...

"The LDS Church has renounced polygamy. Anyone who believes in polygamy is ex-communicated. The LDS believes in the family unit of one man, one woman and their children."
Correction: Polygamy is still an essential doctrine in LDS theology and is still practiced in certain forms by members of the LDS Church. While the LDS Church does not presently allow members to have more than one living spouse, the Church does allow widowers to marry again for "time and all eternity" if they so desire. For example, two current apostles, Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks, have both married a second wife for eternity. Apostle Oaks has told LDS Church members that he expects to continue marriages with both women simultaneously in heaven, and thus, according to LDS theology, he plans to procreate children with both of his wives after the resurrection. Major LDS Church authorities and theologians, such as Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, have stated that the Church will restore the full practice of polygamy after the Second Coming of Christ, if not before.



And the original focus of this thread was on the Twelve Tribes and the FLDS and the similarities between the raids! and BTW FYI the same destrcuctive high control is practiced in both of these groups.

reason for edit: added missing opening quote block


Splitting hairs??

If FLDS are Mormons then by that rationale Catholics are Protestants and Protestants are Lutherans. After all they are all fundamentalist Christians right?

IMHO, the difference between "Mormons" and "Polygamists" could not be more striking. Just attend your average Sunday service for both. Oddly enough there are some "slight" differences for both being Mormon. Obviously the FLDS are a splinter group from the Mormon church (about 110 years ago) but they are not both Mormon. Also the media must of had their facts wrong in numerous cases because all coverage of the compound that I saw referred to the "FLDS" group. No one said they rounded up a bunch of "Mormons" down in Texas.

As for your choice of quotes which states a member is excommunicated for practicing Polygamy (a contradiction to your comment following) I have yet to meet a practicing Mormon that has more than one wife. To keep things simple lets stick to Mormons with wives that are alive. If you can give me one example of a member of the LDS church that has more than one wife I'll eat my shorts! :-)

-Brian

P.S. My apologies to Elijah for getting off topic I just wanted to clear up the fact that there are no Mormons running around in compounds in Texas. If there were the Mormon Church would have a lot of excommunicating to do according to the quote. ;-)


I do agree. Many people have done horrible things in the name of religion.

I'm also sorry to hear you had a bad experience with the Tribes. I will admit I am not too familiar with them. How many members do they have?

-Brian

#12 nabashalam

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 10:43 PM

My apologies to Eliyah ("The Lord is my God") also...

In every major religion you will find fundies/extremest and most are destructive either to their followers or the "outsiders" or both.
And when you get to the basics your main 3, Judaism, Islam and Christianity, are all cut from the same cloth! The myth of the Old Testament/Torah, coupled with a "messiah" myth! http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Jesus-Myth

http://www.pocm.info/


http://en.wikipedia...._Thousand_Faces


The question is, which is more dangerous? The ones who are "half-assed" in their faith or the ones who live it to it's extreme?

http://www.samharris...ondon_Times.pdf

OK....I'm done... For some reason I've got a big headache... ;o)


The sect your refer to is not "Mormon". Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are not members of the LDS church nor are they Mormon. I really hope you don't try and dispute this fact as I am confident that no Polygamists are Mormons and no Mormons are Polygamists. :-)


Make that false confidence! Get your facts straight!

The FLDS are fundamentalist Mormons!!! Your splitting hairs!!! http://merrywives.bl...s-and-flds.html

from that link...

"The LDS Church has renounced polygamy. Anyone who believes in polygamy is ex-communicated. The LDS believes in the family unit of one man, one woman and their children."
Correction: Polygamy is still an essential doctrine in LDS theology and is still practiced in certain forms by members of the LDS Church. While the LDS Church does not presently allow members to have more than one living spouse, the Church does allow widowers to marry again for "time and all eternity" if they so desire. For example, two current apostles, Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks, have both married a second wife for eternity. Apostle Oaks has told LDS Church members that he expects to continue marriages with both women simultaneously in heaven, and thus, according to LDS theology, he plans to procreate children with both of his wives after the resurrection. Major LDS Church authorities and theologians, such as Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, have stated that the Church will restore the full practice of polygamy after the Second Coming of Christ, if not before.



And the original focus of this thread was on the Twelve Tribes and the FLDS and the similarities between the raids! and BTW FYI the same destrcuctive high control is practiced in both of these groups.

reason for edit: added missing opening quote block


Splitting hairs??

If FLDS are Mormons then by that rationale Catholics are Protestants and Protestants are Lutherans. After all they are all fundamentalist Christians right?

IMHO, the difference between "Mormons" and "Polygamists" could not be more striking. Just attend your average Sunday service for both. Oddly enough there are some "slight" differences for both being Mormon. Obviously the FLDS are a splinter group from the Mormon church (about 110 years ago) but they are not both Mormon. Also the media must of had their facts wrong in numerous cases because all coverage of the compound that I saw referred to the "FLDS" group. No one said they rounded up a bunch of "Mormons" down in Texas.

As for your choice of quotes which states a member is excommunicated for practicing Polygamy (a contradiction to your comment following) I have yet to meet a practicing Mormon that has more than one wife. To keep things simple lets stick to Mormons with wives that are alive. If you can give me one example of a member of the LDS church that has more than one wife I'll eat my shorts! :-)

-Brian

P.S. My apologies to Elijah for getting off topic I just wanted to clear up the fact that there are no Mormons running around in compounds in Texas. If there were the Mormon Church would have a lot of excommunicating to do according to the quote. ;-)


I do agree. Many people have done horrible things in the name of religion.

I'm also sorry to hear you had a bad experience with the Tribes. I will admit I am not too familiar with them. How many members do they have?

-Brian


Thanks for caring Brian... The Twelve Tribes have been around since the 70s and now have over 30 communities with about 3000 members, 2/3rds are children. They have well established businesses and are in 9 countries...
http://www.twelvetri...com/whereweare/

scroll down for their businesses http://www.twelvetri...eare/links.html

They seem so nice and inviting on the outside and there are some wonderful loving folks caught in this delusion/trap but here lies the true underbelly of the group... http://yattt.blogspot.com/

Thing is that they have had 1000s come and go and most with scars...

Namaste! David

#13 william7

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 12:32 AM

I am a ex-member of the Twelve Tribes destructive high control Christian Fundamentlist group. I lived with them for 7 years. I am now the News Editor for FACTNet which is the largest and most respected anti-cult website on the net. I encourage you research the post I ran on the similarities of both raids. http://factnet.org/?p=362

From a constitutional standpoint, the government clearly acted illegally in both cases. That's pretty much admitted by everybody.

As far as the Twelve Tribes being a destructive control group, I tend to doubt this very much. They can't be any worse than any of your mainstream churches and government institutions like the military that can be highly destructive and overly controlling as well. Does your organization label Catholic monasteries as destructive high control cults? You would think those places would be at the top of the list for any anti-cult organization.

I guess it depends upon the mindset a person brings to these churches and what they experience while there. Did you experience any positive changes in your life when you joined the Twelve Tribes?

You should try to remember, the early Christian Church in Acts 2 and 4 was considered to be a destructive cult by the larger community and was persecuted by the authorities of that larger community.

I realize I can't speak from the vantage point of experience as you can. I hope to visit the Twelve Tribes in the future so I can see for myself. From what I was told, they do not consider themselves perfect yet. I have to admire the Twelve Tribes and Yoneg (Gene Spriggs) for making the effort at restoring the early Christian Church in Acts and living as closely to the Scriptures as they know how.

Do you continue to study the Scriptures and practice what they teach? If so, in what respects has your religious practice changed since you left the Twelve Tribes? Have you joined any new church or religion?

Also take a look at this site which is the best on the web speaking on the 1984 raid and telling the "other side" of the Twelve Tribes story. http://yattt.blogspo...current-tt.html

I've been reading from this website from time to time in the past week and a half as well as this one at http://www.twelvetribes-ex.com/. I've noticed that many people grow weary of living a highly disciplined life necessary to avoid and help others avoid sin. They begin to desire things of the world such as long hair and full bottles of wine with pizza at Christmas time with unbelieving family members like ex-member Michael Painter did. The Scriptures make it clear that men are not to wear long hair like a woman unless they're under a Nazarite vow which also includes not drinking wine or eating grapes and raisins. Numbers 6; 1 Corinthians 11:14. Christmas, Easter, and Sunday (first day of the week) are pagan holidays not to be observed by serious Christians. True believers give up everything to become a disciple of Yahshua (Jesus). Luke 14:33. This would involve giving up all pagan practices, private property and other worldly entanglements.

I was told by telephone that the Twelve Tribes tries to use positive reinforcement ("encouragement") these days before resorting to physical punishment of children and that they hold regular workshops to help parents discipline their children correctly. I believe teaching children God's law and Christ's teachings through positive reinforcement with little or no punishment to be superior. See my post, at http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=229016, on the matter.

My apologies to Eliyah ("The Lord is my God") also...

Is the Lord your God too?

#14 william7

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 03:56 PM

Below is the full length Google video of the ABC Chronicle program about the Twelve Tribes. Notice the statement by the sociologist (11 minutes 22 seconds into the video) who studies new religions saying that new religions, like the Twelve Tribes, can enrich our culture.



#15 william7

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:05 PM

Sorry I haven't been able to participate in the forums lately. ;) I've been on a long bike hike to visit the Twelve Tribes. The picture below is of me with the community at Lakeland, New York. I'm currently at the community in Rutland, Vermont. Previously, I attended a major seminar in Coxsackie, New York on the new homeschooling curriclum. Met many people from all over the world and was given much info on living communally according to the early Christian Church in Acts. I'm enjoying my stay with them and learning a lot.
Attached File  Community_20and_20I_1_.JPG   1010.21KB   3 downloads
Just to let you know I didn't put the frowning face smiley icon on this thread. Could someone remove it please? Thanks!

#16 StrangeAeons

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 04:43 AM

I haven't researched the specifics of this scenario yet. I don't make a habit of watching propaganda, and I'm inclined to think that a person of faith will give these people a little too much benefit of the doubt.
Also, the Hebrew name of Elijah is Eliyahu, aleph lamed yud hay vav. I used to be an Orthodox Jew. Anyways, I don't know whether or not the government overreacted in this particular instance, but I don't particularly care. You can argue that people have religious freedom in this country all you want, but religious freedom is more ethically complex than it seems. Raising your children in your faith is a given right, but if they are coerced or threatened into maintaining that religion, are you then denying them of their constitutional right? Of course the way I'm presenting that could lead to extreme consequences; however, I think that in modern society there is at least some level of exposure to other beliefs or the possibility of a lifestyle without the beliefs of one's upbringing. Raising children on secluded communes with romanticized ideals without ever hearing an uttered voice of skepticism (save for the rhetorical apologia that use sophistry to arrive at a foregone conclusion) you are going down the slippery slope of removing your child's ability to self-determine. Even the Amish let their children go out into the world prior to baptism. Might the government over-react? Sure. But I'm not losing any sleep over it. History has shown time and again that communes like this are prone to corruption, abuse, and death while flying under the radar.

#17 william7

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:57 PM

I haven't researched the specifics of this scenario yet.

You need to research the specifics as you say. That's what I'm currently trying to do.

I'm inclined to think that a person of faith will give these people a little too much benefit of the doubt.

Most people of self-professed faith don't like the Twelve Tribes. Their beliefs and practices are too much in line with what the Scriptures actually say. They do, however, error in some respects.

Raising your children in your faith is a given right, but if they are coerced or threatened into maintaining that religion, are you then denying them of their constitutional right?

Twelve Tribes parents are trying to keep their children away from the corrupting influences of our morden day society so they can prepare them to live in the Millennial Kingdom of God on earth ruled by Yahshua (Jesus Christ) without counterproductive distractions. They are trying to raise the children to be loving, merciful and just so they will have the ability to live in this new, emerging culture.

Raising children on secluded communes with romanticized ideals without ever hearing an uttered voice of skepticism (save for the rhetorical apologia that use sophistry to arrive at a foregone conclusion) you are going down the slippery slope of removing your child's ability to self-determine. Even the Amish let their children go out into the world prior to baptism.

Twelve Tribes children live right in the city and see a lot of what goes on in the world. They're in the cafes their parents work in frequently. The parents just don't let them interact with the world that much. The children can and do leave the communities when they become old enough.

History has shown time and again that communes like this are prone to corruption, abuse, and death while flying under the radar.

The Twelve Tribes have been around since the very early 70s and are doing fairly well. I agree there is room for improvement in biblical understanding, however. I've witnessed no corruption or abuses so far. They live and desire to live moral lives.

#18 forever freedom

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 11:35 PM

Twelve Tribes parents are trying to keep their children away from the corrupting influences of our morden day society so they can prepare them to live in the Millennial Kingdom of God on earth ruled by Yahshua (Jesus Christ) without counterproductive distractions. They are trying to raise the children to be loving, merciful and just so they will have the ability to live in this new, emerging culture.



Dear god! Poor children...

#19 william7

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:02 PM

Twelve Tribes parents are trying to keep their children away from the corrupting influences of our morden day society so they can prepare them to live in the Millennial Kingdom of God on earth ruled by Yahshua (Jesus Christ) without counterproductive distractions. They are trying to raise the children to be loving, merciful and just so they will have the ability to live in this new, emerging culture.



Dear god! Poor children...

Those children are exceptionally healthy and happy sam! I was talking to a father of 7 in the Twelve Tribes the other day and I asked him if his children had ever been in a McDonald's. He says "yeah McTiolet." I visited 5 different communities and never saw one child suffering from obesity. The children are not able to pig out on junk foods of any type and they're unable to lay around watching television or playing computer games. They are very active and enjoy simple games. The parents make sure their children participate in the twice daily religious meetings and they very much enjoy taking part in the singing and dancing that goes on. I was told there is a lower incidence of disease afflicting the children in Twelve Tribe communities than in the general population. This says a lot to me.

#20 forever freedom

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 11:04 PM

Twelve Tribes parents are trying to keep their children away from the corrupting influences of our morden day society so they can prepare them to live in the Millennial Kingdom of God on earth ruled by Yahshua (Jesus Christ) without counterproductive distractions. They are trying to raise the children to be loving, merciful and just so they will have the ability to live in this new, emerging culture.



Dear god! Poor children...

Those children are exceptionally healthy and happy sam! I was talking to a father of 7 in the Twelve Tribes the other day and I asked him if his children had ever been in a McDonald's. He says "yeah McTiolet." I visited 5 different communities and never saw one child suffering from obesity. The children are not able to pig out on junk foods of any type and they're unable to lay around watching television or playing computer games. They are very active and enjoy simple games. The parents make sure their children participate in the twice daily religious meetings and they very much enjoy taking part in the singing and dancing that goes on. I was told there is a lower incidence of disease afflicting the children in Twelve Tribe communities than in the general population. This says a lot to me.



Yes i have no doubt they're physically healthy, that's not my concern. My concern is their MENTAL HEALTH. It's clear that they're not getting a neutral education that will allow THEM to choose which belief to follow, but then again, civilization is so primitive that it doesn't bother with this problem yet; i hope it does someday. Stop brainwashing our new generations, let them THINK for themselves. One day, i hope, it will be a crime to brainwash children as they are nowadays.

Edited by sam988, 12 October 2008 - 11:07 PM.


#21 Richard Leis

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 01:40 AM

I like Shannon Vyff's approach to this with her own children (or my understanding of her approach to this based on her writing.) She introduces her children to different religions, philosophies, and beliefs, as well as non-religion, and she let's them think critically about them. My brother (an atheist) takes this approach with his son and encourages his son to explore these beliefs and make up his own mind. I assume that any parent will introduce some level of bias into their child rearing, but this can be offset by the right mental tool set.

We are not in a race to force our children into specific beliefs. We are in a race to provide our children with the right tools to become reasoning and independent individuals.

#22 forever freedom

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 03:55 PM

I like Shannon Vyff's approach to this with her own children (or my understanding of her approach to this based on her writing.) She introduces her children to different religions, philosophies, and beliefs, as well as non-religion, and she let's them think critically about them. My brother (an atheist) takes this approach with his son and encourages his son to explore these beliefs and make up his own mind. I assume that any parent will introduce some level of bias into their child rearing, but this can be offset by the right mental tool set.


That is very good, i didn't know Shannon did this, if only more people would do the same, although as you said there's still very likely going to be a bias, but it's already a start.


We are not in a race to force our children into specific beliefs. We are in a race to provide our children with the right tools to become reasoning and independent individuals.


Yes, and to do that so many of our civilization's values would have to change; this scenario is currently no more than a utopia.

#23 william7

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 12:17 AM

Yes i have no doubt they're physically healthy, that's not my concern. My concern is their MENTAL HEALTH. It's clear that they're not getting a neutral education that will allow THEM to choose which belief to follow, but then again, civilization is so primitive that it doesn't bother with this problem yet; i hope it does someday. Stop brainwashing our new generations, let them THINK for themselves. One day, i hope, it will be a crime to brainwash children as they are nowadays.

Twelve Tribes children are mentally healthy too. There is no such thing as a neutral education. There's always a slant, a bias or a deficiency to it. Allowing children to choose which belief system to follow leads to confusion, unhappiness, death and destruction in too many instances.

Many view a public school education as nothing more than brainwashing and training for life in the factory and police state that stifles creative thinking and love for fellow man. Think of the brutality, bullying and pecking order system of the public schools. Some look at public schools in the same light as prisons.

Would you rather see children subjected to the violent and sexually deviant programming from television and video games? I think the harmful effects of television and computer games on children is a scientifically established fact isn't it? I would think you would be for escaping this madness.

Public schools bring to mind Pink Floyd's song "Another brick in the Wall." :) The Twelve Tribes have the answer for escaping the wall.



#24 william7

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 01:40 AM

I like Shannon Vyff's approach to this with her own children (or my understanding of her approach to this based on her writing.) She introduces her children to different religions, philosophies, and beliefs, as well as non-religion, and she let's them think critically about them.

She must home school her children too then? I don't know where parents get the time to give their children an adequate or meaningful education in the different religions, philosophies, and beliefs you mention. Shannon must be college educated to be able to provide such an education to her children. Parents who lack the college education are unable to follow her example.

Still, the Twelve Tribes has the better solution. They give the children a solid biblical education that endures. "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it" is their motto. Proverbs 22:6. They're training their children to be servants in Yahshua's soon coming kingdom on earth, not to be slaves to sin in our dying civilization.

Hopefully, Shannon will give her children some instruction about the Twelve Tribes so they will have an opportunity to make a choice to live by the Bible and communally, as the Acts Church did, and be able to enter Yahshua's kingdom.

#25 John_Ventureville

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 04:27 AM

I don't know about the Twelve Tribes group, but the mother of a friend of mine who is a nurse told me that she used to work in a hospital near the FLDS community. And she was horrified by how many of the children suffered from birth defects. Inbreeding had definitely become a problem in their gene pool.

I agree with what Elijah says regarding the public education system. It teaches many kids about negative social pecking orders, bullying, lookism, wasted time and the reign of mediocrity. I have known a number of kids in my social circles whose parents home schooled them and they tend to be light years ahead of the average public school graduate. Quite a few of them got full scholarships, some even at Ivy League universities. I now scoff at the claim of public school administrators that you need to attend their system to learn to be a well rounded and social person. LOL

I realize not everyone (in fact most) people have the opportunity to home school. And a person in a decent school district who works hard can get a good education, but if I had kids I would not want to chance it.

John

#26 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 06:17 AM

I was alerted to this thread by a friend as my name had been mentioned and thus I may want to respond within :)

I do feel strongly about parenting as many here know. I've been to private and public schools myself, the private running from conservative christian to college prep. My own children have attended everything from immersion Japanese, private conservative christian, college prep and their regular public schools in two different state's districts.

My children learn from me as well, we watch documentaries, travel, go to speeches, science shows, festivals, watch TV, educational net etc. We talk about what we see. At our church we learn about other religions, do social action and learn about human relationships. (I heavily influence my children and those I teach at my church with my secular humanist views :) )

I've met homeschooled children that were grown up, I've been to a kibbutz, I've seen children from strict and from liberal households. I've read extensively about what makes children have high IQs or be "Talented and Gifted Identified". Over and over again, when looking at examples of humans from history that we now label as "genius" --to looking at those we hold in high esteem today--the smarter an individual, the more exposure he or she has had--exposure to education, science, history, contemporary cultures as a child. The more understanding you can give a child the smarter they will be. Studies show that young babies and toddlers who are talked to more have a higher I.Q. and vocabulary.

When I was in highschool I did a science fair project on intelligence. I took 12 baby rats and put them into 12 different cages. 3 got toys, music and handling. 3 got just music and handling. 3 had only music and 3 received nothing--they just sat in their cages. I built a maze myself with nails and wood--three foot by two feet. After three months when the rats were grown I tested them all in the maze, you can guess which group was fastest. What surprised me then, was eye opening in fact --was that all three groups that received some sort of intervention scored significantly higher than the rats that were in their twelve by six containers with nothing the whole time--even the ones with music but no handling! (By far the group with all the interventions scored the highest, but the top three were in the same ballpark with a giant gap between they and the "control" group).

The lesson was ingrained upon me, humans are no different--give them toys, give them experiences--teach them, and they'll be in the higher performing group.

So far my parenting experiments are coming out well, my 12 year old today said I was a good mom--even though we have conflict at times, it is great for me to hear her say that as many 12 year olds can't stand their parents.

I'd write more, but after a long day of taking a child to the Dr. for a minor surgical procedure, helping one bake a cake, taking two to a bounce house, helping find some videos about deep sea creatures for one's project, getting food and laundry done along with my transhumanist, PTO (for our school's board, I help to make the place better--and even teach an afterschool club about the future :) yeah they hear about it all, including cryonics :) ) work for my church... well, I need to get some sleep before the next day so I'm not tired all day as evidenced by reading over that last sentence :)

Elijah you'd like the documentary on the family with 17 children (18 now, but 17 when they filmed) they are homeschooling, no TV watching, controlled net, God loving folk. It has been very interesting for us to analyze them (was with my 12 year old today) in some ways I feel sorry for the kids who will not be up-to-speed on many things about our society. I hope all their children turn out well :)

#27 william7

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 10:45 AM

I don't know about the Twelve Tribes group, but the mother of a friend of mine who is a nurse told me that she used to work in a hospital near the FLDS community. And she was horrified by how many of the children suffered from birth defects. Inbreeding had definitely become a problem in their gene pool.

The Amish have a problem with this too. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Amish#Health. Exogamy is the solution as mentioned in the Wikipedia link.

I heard nothing about an inbreeding problem when I was with the Twelve Tribes. Their communities are too new for this to be a problem at this point. It's certainly something they need to consider as time goes on and they progress and become larger.

I agree with what Elijah says regarding the public education system. It teaches many kids about negative social pecking orders, bullying, lookism, wasted time and the reign of mediocrity. I have known a number of kids in my social circles whose parents home schooled them and they tend to be light years ahead of the average public school graduate. Quite a few of them got full scholarships, some even at Ivy League universities. I now scoff at the claim of public school administrators that you need to attend their system to learn to be a well rounded and social person. LOL

Thanks for agreeing! It's all an obvious truth. I've noticed the same thing in children attending private schools.

I realize not everyone (in fact most) people have the opportunity to home school. And a person in a decent school district who works hard can get a good education, but if I had kids I would not want to chance it.

Same here!

Edited by elijah3, 15 October 2008 - 10:47 AM.


#28 william7

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 06:22 PM

(I heavily influence my children and those I teach at my church with my secular humanist views )

I thought you educate your children in a neutral fashion? And, you do this in a church! Do they believe in God and consider the Bible the word of God at this church?

When I was in highschool I did a science fair project on intelligence. I took 12 baby rats and put them into 12 different cages. 3 got toys, music and handling. 3 got just music and handling. 3 had only music and 3 received nothing--they just sat in their cages. I built a maze myself with nails and wood--three foot by two feet. After three months when the rats were grown I tested them all in the maze, you can guess which group was fastest. What surprised me then, was eye opening in fact --was that all three groups that received some sort of intervention scored significantly higher than the rats that were in their twelve by six containers with nothing the whole time--even the ones with music but no handling! (By far the group with all the interventions scored the highest, but the top three were in the same ballpark with a giant gap between they and the "control" group).

I always liked this type of research too. It supported arguments for more humane conditions of confinement.

I'd write more, but after a long day of taking a child to the Dr. for a minor surgical procedure, helping one bake a cake, taking two to a bounce house, helping find some videos about deep sea creatures for one's project, getting food and laundry done along with my transhumanist, PTO (for our school's board, I help to make the place better--and even teach an afterschool club about the future yeah they hear about it all, including cryonics ) work for my church... well, I need to get some sleep before the next day so I'm not tired all day as evidenced by reading over that last sentence

Just think of how much more you could do with your children and for your causes if you lived communally. I noticed that parents with children had a lot of help in the Twelve Tribes communities I visited. And, everybody catches up on their sleep on the Sabbath. You need to try a weekly Sabbath rest to see how well it improves your performance. Experiment!

Elijah you'd like the documentary on the family with 17 children (18 now, but 17 when they filmed) they are homeschooling, no TV watching, controlled net, God loving folk.

Can you give me a link or more info on this documentary?

in some ways I feel sorry for the kids who will not be up-to-speed on many things about our society. I hope all their children turn out well

Living communally and by the teachings of Yahshua (Jesus) should level things out. Once such a lifestyle is mastered it will bring about children that are physically healthy and morally wise as promised in the prophecy of Isaiah. Isaiah 65:23

#29 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 04:04 AM

This is the show I've watched a few times with my 12 year old :) They are quite in line with Conservative Christian values, watch it for a while to see) http://www.duggarfamily.com/

I've been to many types of communal communities (hippy, to Jewish), and I don't need "help" with my children, I prefer to teach them. I also can cite studies that show that a child with one primary care giver has a higher I.Q. that caregiver knows what the child has been exposed to (I'm talking under age 4) and can teach them by referencing things in the child's memory from day to day.

I get enough sleep, I sleep in often and people do in all sorts of religions, socioeconomic levels, parts of the world--etc. I personally do because I feel it is best for my health, and I work it in a few times a week--whenever I can, such as when my children are at school (oh I guess that is communal ;) we do live in a world with 6.7 billion humans and growing ) but sleeping in makes me a better parent, to be more healthy, have more energy, to teach my children more--for instance when they were home today after our church dinner we learned about Dyson spheres :) (I read the Sawyer story "Star Light, Star Bright" too :) ) For parenting advice I listen to those that have raised children, who have turned out well--my elders. In fact at my church right now, one of my many hats--I'm leading a "Wisdom From Our Elders program, I'm interviewing and we are recording members in their 80's and 90's about what they've lived through, hard times and good times, etc.)

I've seen children that were raised with only Yahshua (Jesus), that are balanced--but not that "bright" or knowledgeable about the world "smart" as compared to others. I raise my children to learn about all great teachers, from Jesus to Buddha, to Mohammed, Abraham, Confucius, Dawkins etc.

There are healthy children that have been raised in all sorts of religions. Christianity which is not the world's fastest growing religions (Islam is) does not have a track record of rearing "better" people. There are good people from all religions, and even atheist households. UU kids have the highest SAT scores in the US :) (but there is much more than SAT scores into being a good person--I include with making a living-- having money to give back to society, raising one's children well, being happy--etc. and these decent people are in society right now from all sorts of backgrounds).

Do my children believe in God, you'd have to ask them :) They do score as UU's on belief net though :)

#30 william7

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:12 PM

This is the show I've watched a few times with my 12 year old They are quite in line with Conservative Christian values, watch it for a while to see) http://www.duggarfamily.com/

The parents must be wealthy to raise this many children in such a large house with all the modern conveniences. We know that what is passed off as Conservative Christian values in America today are really antichrist values. Have you listened to the podcast I posted, at http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=24956. This is something I picked up through the Sabbatarian underground. It's truth teaching par excellence in my opinion.

I've been to many types of communal communities (hippy, to Jewish), and I don't need "help" with my children, I prefer to teach them. I also can cite studies that show that a child with one primary care giver has a higher I.Q. that caregiver knows what the child has been exposed to (I'm talking under age 4) and can teach them by referencing things in the child's memory from day to day.

A high IQ in what? Technical knowledge? The ways of the world today? What about moral wisdom and biblical knowledge? What about knowledge that Yahweh would consider great? The hippy and Jewish communes were failures because they did rest on a sound foundation of biblical knowledge.

I get enough sleep. I sleep in often

You need a full days Sabbath rest once a week on the last day of the week. You also need to worship your Creator on this day. See http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/SS/.

I've seen children that were raised with only Yahshua (Jesus), that are balanced--but not that "bright" or knowledgeable about the world "smart" as compared to others. I raise my children to learn about all great teachers, from Jesus to Buddha, to Mohammed, Abraham, Confucius, Dawkins etc.

Children raised by the teachings of Yahshua are not suppose to have worldly smarts. They're suppose to have the moral wisdom to live by every word that comes from Yahweh's mouth and to live communally, sharing everything, with great love for Yahweh and their fellow man. Matthew 4:4;19:21;22:36-40; Luke 14:33; Acts 2:44-45;4:32.

There's a big difference between Yahshua's (Jesus) teachings and Charles Dawkin's teachings. You can not live by only some of what Yahshua taught. It must be the whole Word of Yahweh or nothing. He was much more than just a great moral teacher. He was the Son of Yahweh, a supernatural entity that Dawkins finds repulsive.

UU kids have the highest SAT scores in the US

What is UU kid? Beware of what passes for knowledge by todays standards. Yahweh's standards are much more stringent.




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