44 replies to this topic

[Heliotrope]

After reading a few books like Organ Farm, Organ Replacements/backups, and watched the clone-farm movie The Island, I was interested in the clones or organ-farms that can replace our organs when the vital organs are about to fail. So when you have a heart disease, then simply take the clone's heart or the cloned heart from the fridge, and do a heart transplant and voila! no immune system attacks or rejections. new heart, new liver, new kidneys , etc that will continue to function well for another human lifetime.

BUT THE THING IS: immortalists already take good care of their health and may never need an organ transplant in their abdomenal and thoractic chambers. The brain however, is usually the last organ to fail. Most people get sucked to death by some other organ failure and diseases. What if they reach 85 years old and everything in the body, heart , liver, etc are all old and frail like the rest of the body but our brains are still okay, why not just grow a "brainless clone ", then open the head of the clone and tranplant our brain in? brain is an organ afterall, can't be that much harder than a heart transplant. Then the old 85 year old brain will be in 20 year old body, in a new cloned adult body/shell. This scheme can be used and tranferred for centuries through many clone bodies. this will buy more time for mind uploading, cryo, nano techs etc

As a safety net in case the surgery goes wrong, have the Alcor , CI people stand-by when the brain tranplant process occurs, then they can take over and ice the brain if the surgeons mess up, take the brain/"you" to Arizona and do the neuro-preservation, then soak it in cold liquid nitrogen in Dewar & wait for revival , OR keep brain on warm life-support to wait for growth of a 2nd empty cloned body/"home".

Edited by HYP86, 12 July 2008 - 06:44 PM.

[manofsan]

I'm imagining that we could regrow a whole new body for you, minus the brain.
It would be fully functional, with only a brain stem to keep its heart beating.

We'd then sedate you, and hook up a direct blood supply to your brain.

Then we transplant your brain into the new body, and attach its blood supply to your brain.

I think that hooking your brain to the extended nervous system of the new body is the hardest part.

[dr_chaos]

because you rip of the hypophysis when removing the brain from the skull.
its sitting firmly below the sella turcica in the fossa hypophysalis.
ok. maybe you could work around that problem by usig an endoscope or so. it's to late to think about it now.

[niner]

I think a brain could be harder than a heart transplant, and probably is. I agree that the neural connections are probably the trickiest part. What if you could take a clone with a brain, scoop out a large amount of brain tissue where your memories were stored, and implanted the "core" of your brain into the clone? I'm hypothesizing that the billions of diffuse neural connections would grow back together relatively seamlessly, and that this would work better than trying to splice a bunch of nerves. It would definitely get into weirder ethical territory though, as you would have to grow a clone with a brain. You would need to do something to prevent formation of a consciousness in the clone. Bioluddites would have a field day with this.

[cyborgdreamer]

You could do a head transplant (I think they've done it in a monkey). However, a brain has the consistency of jello so, if you tried to take it out of someone's skull, you'd squash it.

[John Schloendorn]

The brain however, is usually the last organ to fail

There is no last organ to fail. Only a first. Unfortunately in fact the brain does fail first with quite average frequency. I don't see much reason to believe that it would outlast all other organs by a lot. If it could, then there would not be a evolutionary advantage to maintain it as well as it gets maintained, and its maintenance should come down within a few generations. When it starts failing first, selection would kick in, and stabilitze that exact maintenance level. How can this not have already happened?

[VictorBjoerk]

The history of Jeanne Calment's brain shows that although she was physically frail her brain was very sharp and similar in structure to a 60-year old.So at least the brain can keep perfectly functional without pathologies for 122 years....

[VictorBjoerk]

Read

Karen Ritchie, "Mental Status Examination of an Exceptional Case of Longevity J. C. Aged 118 Years," British Journal of Psychiatry , Vol. 166, pp. 229-235 (1995)

[peterh78]

This is definitely an interesting thing. Surgeries like that definitely could be done by now I guess.

[Heliotrope]

to someone (cyborgdreamer) who said the brain has the consistency of jello and would jiggle and squash , that's not really true. the brain has approximately the consistency of hard-boiled eggs! If the surgeon is careful and doesn't drop, splash, and break the brain to pieces, everything should be alright!

to the above post: yes I believe surgeries like that could be feasible even now. Think about it, in mid 20th century (1960s i believe) the first successful heart transplant occured and the person lived for an additional two (2!) years after that heart transplant in South Africa. Ripping the whole brain out sounds scary and all and there's an ethics/moral hurdle to be jumped. Maybe it's easier to get a "headless"/unconscious clone, and then do a head- transplant, then you'd only have to connect the neck parts, spinal column etc, and not have to take out the entire brain. Like someone said, people already did headtransplants in monkeys

[caston]

What about growing a second body attached to your first?

http://spanishdancer...-conjoined.html

[elwalvador]

I had this idea a few years back, the main obsticle in doing this would be the bans against cloning and then figuring out how to create a brainless clone that wouldn't completely atrophe while we wait for its skull to get big enough for an adult brain. That or create a clone that matures to adulthood faster and then stop aging.

[forever freedom]

It's a very interesting idea. But most people's brains wouldn't last much longer even if they had a brand new body. Not that we couldn't deal with finding ways to keep the brain younger. The main problem is indeed the morals involved in this research field involving human cloning. The damned luddites would go crazy.

[Anthony_Loera]

We are getting there...
http://query.nytimes...755C0A964948260

damn those mice get the coolest medical coverage...

A

[cyborgdreamer]

It's a very interesting idea. But most people's brains wouldn't last much longer even if they had a brand new body. Not that we couldn't deal with finding ways to keep the brain younger.

I wonder if being attached to a younger immune system might keep the brain alive longer.

[forever freedom]

We are getting there...
http://query.nytimes...755C0A964948260

damn those mice get the coolest medical coverage...

A

Did you guys see the date when the article was published? "Published: June 18, 1982"


Apparently there hasn't been much research on this area lately...

Edited by sam988, 14 July 2008 - 05:23 AM.

[John Schloendorn]

Not that we couldn't deal with finding ways to keep the brain younger.

There are three main things that the brain dies from -- atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration and cancer. But if you can reliably cure those three in one organ, then you're probably well on the way to cure aging in the rest of the body anyway. So the question is, what's easier, figure out how to grow a headless clone and transplant a brain, or cure aging under the assumption that you already have the unbelievable biotechnological power to cure atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration and cancer. I don't know what the answer is, and luckily nobody needs to make up their mind before they can cure those three.

[elwalvador]

I think the proper term for this would be a "Whole body transplant"

[VictorBjoerk]

We are getting there...
http://query.nytimes...755C0A964948260

damn those mice get the coolest medical coverage...

A

Did you guys see the date when the article was published? "Published: June 18, 1982"


Apparently there hasn't been much research on this area lately...

Why hasn't any more research been done about this?

[caston]

Not that we couldn't deal with finding ways to keep the brain younger.

There are three main things that the brain dies from -- atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration and cancer.

What category is it when the myelin sheaths are in a state of dissrepair due to the oligodendrocytes being attacked by immune cells?

Edited by caston, 15 July 2008 - 09:18 AM.

[Heliotrope]

I think the proper term for this would be a "Whole body transplant"

depends on your frame of reference, a brain transplant is basically the same thing as "Whole body transplant", because you'd be getting a new and unused body at the Peak of its young "adulthood"

Edited by HYP86, 16 July 2008 - 07:41 PM.

[rodentman]

Not that we couldn't deal with finding ways to keep the brain younger.

There are three main things that the brain dies from -- atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration and cancer. But if you can reliably cure those three in one organ, then you're probably well on the way to cure aging in the rest of the body anyway. So the question is, what's easier, figure out how to grow a headless clone and transplant a brain, or cure aging under the assumption that you already have the unbelievable biotechnological power to cure atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration and cancer. I don't know what the answer is, and luckily nobody needs to make up their mind before they can cure those three.

I agree. The most depressing part of aging... isnt lack of energy, mobillity, being wrinkled, or weakened senses, its losing ones mental faculties. The total body transplant would be a nice way to fix several things at once... but I'm hoping that neurdegeneration is reversed will before this happens.

[Heliotrope]

Not that we couldn't deal with finding ways to keep the brain younger.

There are three main things that the brain dies from -- atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration and cancer. But if you can reliably cure those three in one organ, then you're probably well on the way to cure aging in the rest of the body anyway. So the question is, what's easier, figure out how to grow a headless clone and transplant a brain, or cure aging under the assumption that you already have the unbelievable biotechnological power to cure atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration and cancer. I don't know what the answer is, and luckily nobody needs to make up their mind before they can cure those three.

I agree. The most depressing part of aging... isnt lack of energy, mobillity, being wrinkled, or weakened senses, its losing ones mental faculties. The total body transplant would be a nice way to fix several things at once... but I'm hoping that neurdegeneration is reversed will before this happens.

if neurodegeneration is completely prevented or reversed in some way, then may not even be necessary to do whole body transplant. there're defintely big risks and liabilities of ripping a brain out and put it in a new body, riskier than transplanting small body parts. i still think brain-transplant can be a huge leap toward human biological immortality tho, if we cure all the neurodegenerative diseases, brain cancers etc first hand, and find more ways to protect the brain.

[basho]

There have been plenty of head transplant experiments, and even a patent for a device to keep the head & brain alive for an extended period after being discorporated (what a great term).

Device for perfusing an animal head

• www.bpmlegal.com/whead.html
• v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US4666425&F=0

The Russians actually experimented with discorporated dog heads kept alive, and seemingly conscious, with such devices. Note: Don't watch the following YouTube clip if you are sensitive about severed, living dogs heads:

In 1954 Vladimir Demikhov conducted created a two-headed dog by grafting a puppy's head to a full-grown animal. Again, don't watch if you are disturbed with two-headed dogs:

In the West experiments with primate head transplants were carried out:
www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/stranger-than-fiction/head-transplant.html

For an America in the grip of cold-war paranoia, the prospect of Russian two-headed dogs was too much to ignore. The United States would soon begin it's own head-transplant programme.

In 1960, the US Government, eager to stay ahead of the Russians in all aspects of medical science, helped White establish a specialist laboratory at the County Hospital in Cleveland, Ohio. Here he set about creating a world-leading brain research centre.

By day, White operated on patients with all kinds of brain injuries and illnesses. His surgical skills were renowned. But, as a scientist, it was the mysteries of the brain he wanted to unlock. His ambition was to be the first person, in the world, to isolate the brain. To take it out of the skull, to study it, and to keep it alive throughout.

Robert White decided that if he could transplant a head from one monkey to another, then it would be apparent of the brain activity represented awareness. It took him three years to plan the surgery. He knew that this would be, to some, morally offensive.

The monkey was conscious after the transplant:

A word of caution though, don't try this at home or PETA will be over to have a few words.

Edited by basho, 01 September 2008 - 11:52 AM.

[Nova]

Clone to grow up it is possible but there will be chronic illnesses. To replace a brain it is possible but the cerebellum and a hypophysis will be old and it is illness of heart of fermental glands.



If there will be operations on change of a bark of a brain is an immortality.

[Neurosail]

Q: How, exactly, will neuropreservation patients be recovered? A: In the future medicine will learn to master growth and development programs within the human body. Cells will be reprogrammed to heal severed spinal cords, regrow lost limbs, and even regenerate new organs. This kind of tissue regeneration already occurs naturally in children that lose fingertips, and in organs such as the liver. Extending these regenerative capabilities will be a matter of uncovering old programs that may still be dormant in our genes, and eventually writing new programs. In cases of severe injury, it is possible to imagine placing patients in a fluid support environment in which blood is artificially circulated to maintain life until vital organs are regenerated and all injuries healed. Such a healing process could theoretically start with just a brain. Programming a brain to regrow a new body may seem incredible, but nature already does things that are even more incredible. The body you have right now is the product of a growth program that started from a single cell.

Rather than making a clone and transferring the brain, simply regrow the body around the brain.

[eternaltraveler]

Rather than making a clone and transferring the brain, simply regrow the body around the brain.

yes, simply.....