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Gemstones to help with Immortality?


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#1 orangeray21

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 06:58 AM


Is there any scientific basis for the use of gemstones for healing? I seem to feel better with the use of certain ones, particularly in spherical form, but does anyone know how gemstones may affect the body for healing?" Here is a quote from a gem website "Already, quartz crystals help propel data around the globe, while rubies and sapphires make delicate laser surgery possible. As doctors, athletes, and trainers are discovering the versatile power of gemstones, clinical evidence continues to indicate that therapeutic Green Tourmaline enhances human performance."
Peace

(edited by Matthias: thread moved to: Society & Philosophy » Other Conversations, personal data removed)

Edited by Matthias, 26 May 2010 - 06:48 PM.

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#2 zoolander

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 07:06 AM

Yes Yes. I am afraid you might have hippies. You better see someone about that.
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#3 Matthias

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:31 PM

At first, I thought we should delete it as spam, but maybe it's even better to create a "Snake Oil" subforum especially for

gemstones, magnetic rings, immortality spells and stuff.

Edited by Matthias, 14 July 2008 - 03:41 PM.


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#4 orangeray21

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 06:24 AM

Yes Yes. I am afraid you might have hippies. You better see someone about that.


Come on guys. Did you even look at the link? The people there who use these tools certainly aren't hippies. These are olympic athletes. How about taking a closer look. If crystals are used in watches, computers, and lasers; perhaps this is because its specialized mineral matrix gives it certain energetic qualities. Aren't we largely created of minerals? What if minerals affect us by some type of field they have. Perhaps ingestion isn't the only way....?

#5 Mind

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 07:00 AM

If gemstones had any real scientific backing they would be used in every clinic and hospital in the world. Since gemstones have been around as long as humans have, you would think the health benefits would be obvious, but they are not.
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#6 zoolander

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 07:00 AM

Have you looked at the link? The olympians you speak of are still training for the 2004 olympics. I hope they get there.

Now....haven't you got a John Butler Trio CD to listen to.

#7 orangeray21

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 04:24 PM

If gemstones had any real scientific backing they would be used in every clinic and hospital in the world. Since gemstones have been around as long as humans have, you would think the health benefits would be obvious, but they are not.


If you've already made up your minds, that is fine. But I will just add a little more here. The knowledge of the effects of spherical gemstones has only been around a few years. There are clinics around the world that are using them, with several full time gemstone therapists. They are also in chiropractic offices, as well as spas. The main problem with acceptibility has been that there is currently no machine that I am aware of besides the human body that can measure the energy that they produce. Although I have heard the term scalar mentioned. I just know, they were hard for me to accept too. But I can tell you, there are some gemstones such as aquamarine and green tourmaline that I can only wear for a short time because they are too powerful for me. On the other hand orange carnelian makes me feel good and I wear it everyday. More and more people are wearing these. We're not all crazy hippies.
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#8 Mind

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 05:08 PM

Remember the placebo effect. If you told people that they could use doorknobs to give them healing energy and you did a controlled test of doorknob energy, 33% of people would report positive effects simply due to the placebo effect. This happens all the time in controlled studies. People take sugar pills and report real effects.

As far as I am aware there have been no controlled studies showing any significant health benefits from any gemstone. A red flag for any treatment is when it is claimed "that the healing energy cannot be measured". That is a pretty sure sign that you are wasting your money on something mystical and unproven.
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#9 Mixter

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 07:19 PM

PM me for magic doorknobs, starting as low as $139.95 ;)
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#10 Traclo

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 08:44 PM

The main problem with acceptibility has been that there is currently no machine that I am aware of besides the human body that can measure the energy that they produce.


Hmm.
First if there is no machine that can measures something, but somehow you can 'feel' it, then the simplest answer is there is really nothing at all. It's just in your head.
Second what is this about producing energy? I certainly hope you don't mean that in the thermodynamically impossible way.
Thirdly, saying that some gemstones are too powerful to wear is inane because if that were true you'd think people would've noticed by now and started investigating?

Also what is this about spherical being better for mega gemstone therapy? Care to offer a non crazy possible explanation?

Anyway,
I just hate people believing in things that will no doubt set back the progress (wasted money) and credibility of our cause. Bring me studies or take this somewhere else.

Edited by Traclo, 15 July 2008 - 08:46 PM.


#11 orangeray21

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 09:47 PM

The main problem with acceptibility has been that there is currently no machine that I am aware of besides the human body that can measure the energy that they produce.


Hmm.
First if there is no machine that can measures something, but somehow you can 'feel' it, then the simplest answer is there is really nothing at all. It's just in your head.
Second what is this about producing energy? I certainly hope you don't mean that in the thermodynamically impossible way.
Thirdly, saying that some gemstones are too powerful to wear is inane because if that were true you'd think people would've noticed by now and started investigating?

Also what is this about spherical being better for mega gemstone therapy? Care to offer a non crazy possible explanation?

Anyway,
I just hate people believing in things that will no doubt set back the progress (wasted money) and credibility of our cause. Bring me studies or take this somewhere else.


Man, you guys are tough. I am not a scientist, and as you know, many things do not get into a study due to cost, etc. I do have friend in Los Angeles who is a degreed scientist working in a chemical lab that feels there is something to this, just to let you know and he is very critical. Both him and I would like scientific proof for the very reasons you all bring up. This is bleeding edge science. And if you want to give up, I understand. But have you thought how this might work? We know that there is such a thing as color therapy. And if you would look up the impact of light on the body and its many spectrums you would find the effects are substantial. There was a study, for instance, of rats with purposely damaged retinas exposed to infrared light, that in nearly every case were 90% healed. Also, we all know the presence of different fields have various effects. We know that at an atomic level every thing is vibrating, and colors are just vibrations of different frequencies. We also know that there is such a thing as sympathetic resonance. You may see where I am going with this, but if a field is vibrating (gemstone in this case) in near proximity to the body long enough, perhaps the body responds by resonating. I believe the body is sensitive to certain energies that cannot be measured with our current science, isn't this true of dreams? Do you know a machine that can record dreams besides our mind? I appreciate your skepticism. Yet if you want to live forever, you will probably run into people from other planets eventually (even Einstein said, "It is scarcely possible to think that life on other planets does not exist") and discover technologies that don't make sense. We have much to learn. "Imagination is more important than knowledge" he also said. I read that Einstein got a lot of his ideas by imagining, not by necessarily always looking at studies, because a lot of what he realized was new to the world at the time. So perhaps in this case, it may be appropriate, since this is very new ground. And finally, here is a quote from a medical director from www.gemisphere.com : I use Green Tourmaline and other gems on a regular basis. The bottom line is that the gemstones do make a difference--although sometimes I have a difficult time believing it myself!

Rashid A. Buttar, D.O., FAAPM, FACAM, FAAIM
Medical Director, Advanced Concepts in Medicine

I am looking for answers just like all of you. And I will continue to try and discover why spherical gemstones have the effect they do on me. I have also limited use with crystals. If you want to try and experiment, put a quartz crystal in a glass of drinking water for an hour. Drink this water daily for a few days. Then stop drinking it. Notice Anything?

And to answer the question about spherical gems versus crystals. The crystals apparently focus its vibration in a pointed way, just as it shape implies. It has a base and a point. Whereas the sphere provides a nuetral (undirected) vibration.





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#12 treonsverdery

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 10:35 PM

fairies might like pretty things then visit the humans near the pretty things

happy visiting

#13 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 12:35 AM

But have you thought how this might work? We know that there is such a thing as color therapy. And if you would look up the impact of light on the body and its many spectrums you would find the effects are substantial.


Electromagnetic radiation does affect the body, but in the case of visible light rays, I'd wonder if it isn't all psycological. It might not be, but even then, white light carries all of the visible wave lengths so it wouldn't matter whether you carry a colored object.

There was a study, for instance, of rats with purposely damaged retinas exposed to infrared light, that in nearly every case were 90% healed.


How well did the rats heal without the light?

Also, we all know the presence of different fields have various effects. We know that at an atomic level every thing is vibrating, and colors are just vibrations of different frequencies.


Not exactly. Everything does vibrate but that's from heat not light waves. Infrared light can be converted into heat, but that's about it.

We also know that there is such a thing as sympathetic resonance. You may see where I am going with this, but if a field is vibrating (gemstone in this case) in near proximity to the body long enough, perhaps the body responds by resonating. I believe the body is sensitive to certain energies that cannot be measured with our current science, isn't this true of dreams? Do you know a machine that can record dreams besides our mind?


A functional MRI could record your brain activity while you dream (though it would be pretty hard to fall asleep in the machine). Due to our limited understanding of the human brain, you can't interpret the brain activity but you can record it.

I appreciate your skepticism. Yet if you want to live forever, you will probably run into people from other planets eventually (even Einstein said, "It is scarcely possible to think that life on other planets does not exist") and discover technologies that don't make sense. We have much to learn. "Imagination is more important than knowledge" he also said. I read that Einstein got a lot of his ideas by imagining, not by necessarily always looking at studies, because a lot of what he realized was new to the world at the time. So perhaps in this case, it may be appropriate, since this is very new ground. And finally, here is a quote from a medical director from www.gemisphere.com : I use Green Tourmaline and other gems on a regular basis. The bottom line is that the gemstones do make a difference--although sometimes I have a difficult time believing it myself!

Rashid A. Buttar, D.O., FAAPM, FACAM, FAAIM
Medical Director, Advanced Concepts in Medicine


There are certainly things we don't know about the universe. But we have to look at the evidence to see what is and isn't likely. Anything's possible but that doesn't make it plausible. So with the lack of supporting evidence, it's more likely that the gem stones are just placebos.

I am looking for answers just like all of you. And I will continue to try and discover why spherical gemstones have the effect they do on me. I have also limited use with crystals. If you want to try and experiment, put a quartz crystal in a glass of drinking water for an hour. Drink this water daily for a few days. Then stop drinking it. Notice Anything?


Again, there's no reason to think that a quartz crystal would affect the water. However, if you wanted to do a controlled study you would have to do it so that the person wouldn't know whether their water was exposed to quartz or not. That way, you could control for the placebo effect.

#14 Shepard

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 02:37 AM



#15 Mind

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 07:01 AM

There are many things that improve measures of health. Many people here discuss supplements, exercise, CR, etc... In the case of CR, many mammals have gone through testing. CR mammals live longer than the ones who eat as much as they want. This result has been proven over and over again. I am unsure of any animal testing using gemstones - even though such a study would be very easy to implement.
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#16 Live Forever

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 07:10 AM

Great show!

#17 orangeray21

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 07:14 AM

But have you thought how this might work? We know that there is such a thing as color therapy. And if you would look up the impact of light on the body and its many spectrums you would find the effects are substantial.


Electromagnetic radiation does affect the body, but in the case of visible light rays, I'd wonder if it isn't all psycological. It might not be, but even then, white light carries all of the visible wave lengths so it wouldn't matter whether you carry a colored object.

There was a study, for instance, of rats with purposely damaged retinas exposed to infrared light, that in nearly every case were 90% healed.


How well did the rats heal without the light?

Also, we all know the presence of different fields have various effects. We know that at an atomic level every thing is vibrating, and colors are just vibrations of different frequencies.


Not exactly. Everything does vibrate but that's from heat not light waves. Infrared light can be converted into heat, but that's about it.

We also know that there is such a thing as sympathetic resonance. You may see where I am going with this, but if a field is vibrating (gemstone in this case) in near proximity to the body long enough, perhaps the body responds by resonating. I believe the body is sensitive to certain energies that cannot be measured with our current science, isn't this true of dreams? Do you know a machine that can record dreams besides our mind?


A functional MRI could record your brain activity while you dream (though it would be pretty hard to fall asleep in the machine). Due to our limited understanding of the human brain, you can't interpret the brain activity but you can record it.

I appreciate your skepticism. Yet if you want to live forever, you will probably run into people from other planets eventually (even Einstein said, "It is scarcely possible to think that life on other planets does not exist") and discover technologies that don't make sense. We have much to learn. "Imagination is more important than knowledge" he also said. I read that Einstein got a lot of his ideas by imagining, not by necessarily always looking at studies, because a lot of what he realized was new to the world at the time. So perhaps in this case, it may be appropriate, since this is very new ground. And finally, here is a quote from a medical director from www.gemisphere.com : I use Green Tourmaline and other gems on a regular basis. The bottom line is that the gemstones do make a difference--although sometimes I have a difficult time believing it myself!

Rashid A. Buttar, D.O., FAAPM, FACAM, FAAIM
Medical Director, Advanced Concepts in Medicine


There are certainly things we don't know about the universe. But we have to look at the evidence to see what is and isn't likely. Anything's possible but that doesn't make it plausible. So with the lack of supporting evidence, it's more likely that the gem stones are just placebos.

I am looking for answers just like all of you. And I will continue to try and discover why spherical gemstones have the effect they do on me. I have also limited use with crystals. If you want to try and experiment, put a quartz crystal in a glass of drinking water for an hour. Drink this water daily for a few days. Then stop drinking it. Notice Anything?


Again, there's no reason to think that a quartz crystal would affect the water. However, if you wanted to do a controlled study you would have to do it so that the person wouldn't know whether their water was exposed to quartz or not. That way, you could control for the placebo effect.


I wanted to answer cyborgdreamer about the rat study. Unfortunately, I can't find it, I'll keep trying. But I did find this regarding infrared light healing. Thought you may want to take a look: http://www.medicalne...icles/95334.php

#18 sentinel

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 07:57 AM

Just as a quick aside, I would like to complement you orangeray21 on the way that you have conducted yourself on this forum, given the overt sarcasm that has been put your way. I don't go along with your ideas but that doesn't make you a bad person and I wouldn't like you to leave Imminst thinking we're just a bunch of smug, sniggering geeks.

#19 Shepard

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 01:20 PM

I wouldn't like you to leave Imminst thinking we're just a bunch of smug, sniggering geeks.


I am known far and wide for my smugness.

To get back on topic, it's not unheard of for some athletes to wear things like this to improve athletic performance. But, they are often a superstitious bunch that do a lot of odd things. There was some company in the bodybuilding community that came out with some type of rock fairly recently that will give you the skills to pay the bills.
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#20 zoolander

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 03:24 PM

I have heard of one case where an athlete was banned from their sport for gemstone doping. I can't quite find the reference at the moment.

They not only used rocks I think they smoked rocks as well....Josh Rogan

Posted Image

Edited by zoolander, 16 July 2008 - 03:25 PM.


#21 Shepard

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 06:08 PM

I have heard of one case where an athlete was banned from their sport for gemstone doping. I can't quite find the reference at the moment.

They not only used rocks I think they smoked rocks as well....Josh Rogan


Sadly, it's got to be in suppository form to get past the Olympic drug-screenings.

#22 orangeray21

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 08:12 PM

Just as a quick aside, I would like to complement you orangeray21 on the way that you have conducted yourself on this forum, given the overt sarcasm that has been put your way. I don't go along with your ideas but that doesn't make you a bad person and I wouldn't like you to leave Imminst thinking we're just a bunch of smug, sniggering geeks.


Thank you Sentinel. Today I found out that in England gemstone therapy is covered by health insurance. Ofcourse I don't know how much credence this has, as they may cover all alternative treatments. Still looking. I also requested from gemisphere their most complete scientific studies, etc. to date. I should have whatever they have in my hands by early next week. I'll leave you all with this, a quote that is not an official study with placebo controls, nonetheless this doctor has seen results in his department:

"From the Chinese medicine perspective, it is not surprising that therapeutic gemstones have such powerful effects. For me, holistic medicine is vibrational medicine--meaning that any therapeutic substance is effective primarily because of its vibration. I have seen the gemstones produce a very strong vibrational response."

Heiner Fruehauf, Ph.D., L.Ac.
Chair, Chinese Medicine Department
National College of Naturopathic Medicine


Edited by Mind, 16 July 2008 - 09:10 PM.


#23 Mind

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 09:09 PM

I'll speculate as to why there are not many (if any at all) animal studies regarding gemstones....because animals cannot be convinced of the "healing vibrational power" beforehand, thus no placebo affect.

#24 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:07 PM

I wanted to answer cyborgdreamer about the rat study. Unfortunately, I can't find it, I'll keep trying. But I did find this regarding infrared light healing. Thought you may want to take a look: http://www.medicalne...icles/95334.php


That's interesting but they didn't mention the science behind their claim.

Edited by cyborgdreamer, 16 July 2008 - 10:20 PM.


#25 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:20 PM

Just as a quick aside, I would like to complement you orangeray21 on the way that you have conducted yourself on this forum, given the overt sarcasm that has been put your way. I don't go along with your ideas but that doesn't make you a bad person and I wouldn't like you to leave Imminst thinking we're just a bunch of smug, sniggering geeks.


Thank you Sentinel. Today I found out that in England gemstone therapy is covered by health insurance. Ofcourse I don't know how much credence this has, as they may cover all alternative treatments. Still looking. I also requested from gemisphere their most complete scientific studies, etc. to date. I should have whatever they have in my hands by early next week. I'll leave you all with this, a quote that is not an official study with placebo controls, nonetheless this doctor has seen results in his department:

"From the Chinese medicine perspective, it is not surprising that therapeutic gemstones have such powerful effects. For me, holistic medicine is vibrational medicine--meaning that any therapeutic substance is effective primarily because of its vibration. I have seen the gemstones produce a very strong vibrational response."

Heiner Fruehauf, Ph.D., L.Ac.
Chair, Chinese Medicine Department
National College of Naturopathic Medicine


But the gemstones really don't vibrate more than any other piece of matter.

#26 PWAIN

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:41 AM

But I can tell you, there are some gemstones such as aquamarine and green tourmaline that I can only wear for a short time because they are too powerful for me. On the other hand orange carnelian makes me feel good and I wear it everyday.



Here is an experiment that you can do:

Get a large number of aquamarine and green tourmaline and some orange carnelian and place in black felt pouches and seal them up. They should all look exactly the same.

Give them all to a friend and every day, get them to give you one of the pouches (mixed up and randomly selected) to wear. At the end of each day, return it to your friend and make the comment either you felt good or bad (no inbetween). Your friend should pin a note to this bag and store it seperately. After about 3 months, get your friend to give you all the bags with pinned notes, open them up and note whether accurate or not and if less than 90% accurate, move on. If greater than 90% accurate, you may be on to something.

There is a web site out there somewhere where the guy challenges people like yourself to prove your theory. If you are able to prove it, he will give you a very big lump of money. He has NEVER had to pay up so far.

That said, crystals are cool and really nice to look at and play with. Just don't get too excited about some supposed "effects". We have looked at crystals with SEMS (ie. at the very atoms they are made from) and nothing unexpected has been found.

#27 orangeray21

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 06:01 AM

Just as a quick aside, I would like to complement you orangeray21 on the way that you have conducted yourself on this forum, given the overt sarcasm that has been put your way. I don't go along with your ideas but that doesn't make you a bad person and I wouldn't like you to leave Imminst thinking we're just a bunch of smug, sniggering geeks.


Thank you Sentinel. Today I found out that in England gemstone therapy is covered by health insurance. Ofcourse I don't know how much credence this has, as they may cover all alternative treatments. Still looking. I also requested from gemisphere their most complete scientific studies, etc. to date. I should have whatever they have in my hands by early next week. I'll leave you all with this, a quote that is not an official study with placebo controls, nonetheless this doctor has seen results in his department:

"From the Chinese medicine perspective, it is not surprising that therapeutic gemstones have such powerful effects. For me, holistic medicine is vibrational medicine--meaning that any therapeutic substance is effective primarily because of its vibration. I have seen the gemstones produce a very strong vibrational response."

Heiner Fruehauf, Ph.D., L.Ac.
Chair, Chinese Medicine Department
National College of Naturopathic Medicine


But the gemstones really don't vibrate more than any other piece of matter.


Going back to sympathetic resonance, do you think the piezo effect may yield some understanding of why gemstones may work? http://en.wikipedia....i/Piezoelectric According to this, mechanical pressure creates one effect and an electrical field creates the converse effect. Isn't the human body an electrical field? I have read that all cells have a positive and negative polarity, and that even our bones have a piezo effect and to a greater degree when we say, go jogging. It is interesting that gemstones have formed slowly under great pressure in the earth. It is as if that great force becomes usable to us when we unlock their strong (various hardness ofcourse) crystalline structure?

#28 orangeray21

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 07:50 AM

I wanted to answer cyborgdreamer about the rat study. Unfortunately, I can't find it, I'll keep trying. But I did find this regarding infrared light healing. Thought you may want to take a look: http://www.medicalne...icles/95334.php


That's interesting but they didn't mention the science behind their claim.


Here is a bit more on the healing light therapies: http://www.restoreli...improvement.php

Edited by orangeray21, 17 July 2008 - 07:52 AM.

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#29 zoolander

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 09:44 AM

Thread moved to unrelated to life extension

Reason: Lacks serious scientific merit
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#30 Mind

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 07:56 PM

There are many things that are formed with heat and pressure within the earth. No one wears coal or granite because....because it is cheap and plentiful...you can't make money off of it.

Primates (including humans) are know to have an evolved attraction to shiny sparkly things and thus gold and gemstones are very valuable and perhaps more easily assigned vague healing powers.




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