Hewlett Packard is up to two
years away from starting to
build a "central nervous
system for the Earth",
known as CeNSE.
Read More: http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/7520706.stm
Posted 25 July 2008 - 09:19 PM
Posted 26 July 2008 - 03:06 PM
The man leading this ambitious project is Dr Stan Williams, who runs HP's Information and Quantum Systems Laboratory. "The motivation for this work is realising and understanding the planet is sick and the disease is us," he told BBC News.
Posted 26 July 2008 - 03:27 PM
Agreed. I think it are calvinism and total depravity that casts a shade on our current civilisation. The paradox however is that religion itself is a product of evolution.... We just have to deal with it I guess.The man leading this ambitious project is Dr Stan Williams, who runs HP's Information and Quantum Systems Laboratory. "The motivation for this work is realising and understanding the planet is sick and the disease is us," he told BBC News.
I don't like this attitude and I hate to see people of prominence diminishing the value of humans. There are enough monsters on this planet doing this already, we don't need scientists doing it as well.
We are part of this planet and a product of evolution. Was the earth sick when prokaryotes and ukaryotes oxygenated the atmosphere? Was the planet sick when plants colonized the land? These transformations of the earth were enormous and dwarf anything that humans are doing today, yet we are the "disease".
Posted 26 July 2008 - 03:45 PM
Posted 26 July 2008 - 03:54 PM
Edited by SubZero, 26 July 2008 - 03:55 PM.
Posted 26 July 2008 - 04:30 PM
Edited by lightowl, 26 July 2008 - 04:40 PM.
Posted 26 July 2008 - 05:05 PM
Posted 26 July 2008 - 05:13 PM
Posted 26 July 2008 - 05:29 PM
Ha, I'm realy in reply mode today. Doesn't happen often.I don't object to CeNSE, or to protecting the environment, or even to surveillance (as long as it is open-source and public - not "big brother"), but I do object to calling the human race a "disease" or "cancer". There is a big difference between saying a single person is wasteful, doesn't care, or is a polluting bastard, and claiming the entire race is a "disease". This implies that the entire race needs to be eradicated - wiped out - that the earth needs to be cleansed of them.
Do a thought experiment. Let us say a huge asteroid is headed for the planet - big enough to blast it apart in many pieces. Who is going to save the planet? All the beautiful trees? The polar bear? The whole of nature in all it's peaceful balanced perfect existence? No. It is only the "disease" that can stop the destruction of the entire planet by the enormous asteroid. The "cancer of the planet" is the only thing capable of caring for and protecting the earth as a whole, and we should.
Posted 26 July 2008 - 05:56 PM
As an analogy it is flawed in a sense, I agree. But its still fitting on a global scale. As other "diseases" we have the ability to destroy our host almost completely. I don't agree that it implies a solution would be to eradicate humans. That would be an extreme interpretation. Its still just an analogy.but I do object to calling the human race a "disease" or "cancer".
I definitely don't agree with this. Outrage should be expressed with anger, IMO. Its the best way to show you really mean it.I think it's essential indeed that issues like this should be addressed as neutral and objective as possible. And with a positive in stead of this distasteful negative inclination.
Edited by lightowl, 26 July 2008 - 05:58 PM.
Posted 26 July 2008 - 06:03 PM
Edited by bobscrachy, 26 July 2008 - 06:04 PM.
Posted 26 July 2008 - 06:12 PM
This is true, and it makes the analogy of a disease better. Earth would need time to recover from the disease. This is assuming of course we consider biological diversity a good state of affairs.We could completely destroy ourselves with whatever weapons or policies available and the earth would be business as usual 3 million years later.
Edited by lightowl, 26 July 2008 - 06:32 PM.
Posted 26 July 2008 - 07:56 PM
Posted 26 July 2008 - 09:04 PM
Not even as an analogy with the CeNSE describes as a nervous system? I don't see how its so ridiculous. Its obvious the way we use the resources of the earth currently is not sustainable and I'm not talking about global warming. We are polluting fresh drinking water to a point where millions must live of sewage water, cutting down huge areas of precious forest without replacement, burning off massive amounts of oil without replacement, dumping huge amounts of toxic waste into the oceans, aggressively overfishing the oceans to the point of depletion in many areas. At the same time we can only sustain relatively decent living standards for less than half the human population. If this continues without radical improvement (which is in the pipe) we would destroy our own means of survival. Global warming is peanuts compared to these problems.I can't believe a person could say something like that and be serious about it.
Edited by lightowl, 26 July 2008 - 09:10 PM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 01:12 AM
Posted 27 July 2008 - 01:17 AM
Posted 27 July 2008 - 02:14 AM
Yep, that was me, and I argue it because someone said it was a bad analogy. I think its rather fitting, not that I think the human race is a disease, but the analogy fits in this context.I wasn't talking about the idea of the project. I never said that at all, Lightowl. It's just ridiculous to say that the human race is a disease. I don't think you were the one who said that either. Well, idk, maybe you agreed? I was referring to a comment up higher. Someone said that the human race is a disease to the world. The way it was being described, he sounded like some goth kid who hated the world.
Global warming is a problem, but its not the biggest problem. If poverty was not so widespread today, global warming would not be a problem for a long time, if ever. Those mostly affected by any natural disaster is the poor in this world. We who can afford to buy or rent secure homes and buy our clean water in the stores wont feel the direct effects. But we will surely start noticing the many poor desperate people knocking at our doors begging for help. Its sad really and unfair. I wish more people would share what they have.The reason I mentioned Global Warming is because I figured people could relate to that being a problem humans helped cause, and a reason to a person who thinks the human race is a "DISEASE". And it's definitely not penuts compared to anything. Global Warming is a huge problem.
Yep, I'm not disputing that. And I'm definitely an optimist when it comes to technological possibilities. I just wish it wouldn't take a disaster for things to get moving in many cases. I doubt global warming will be limited because of the problems it is causing poor people. I think the price of fossil fuels will probably have a bigger impact in the short term, until we have alternatives readily available through technological advances.But with innovation, comes sacrifice. The sacrifice being that we needed energy, and didn't realize the side affects it was causing until years later when looking at the affects on Venus from the greenhouse affect. But guess what? The world is trying to cut back right now and stop things from getting worse.
Right, this is where the analogy is weak, but still. Some people still don't know when to stop, or don't want to stop, or don't care to stop. Hopefully democracy will keep those people out of power. But where they to gain power, the analogy would stand on that point too. Also, an analogy doesnt have to be complete correct on all aspects of a comparison. That's the beauty of analogies. They can be used to describe similarities without absolute equality.A "disease" doesn't know when to stop.
Edited by lightowl, 27 July 2008 - 02:32 AM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 02:24 AM
"The motivation for this work is realising and understanding the planet is sick and the disease is us,"
"As information technology people, we are not going to be the ones who prescribe and administer the cure but we should be the people who provide the information required to do proper diagnosis and treatment."
...
And just as a doctor would use a barrage of tests to find out what ails a patient, so Dr Williams believes he and HP can do the same in finding out what is going wrong with our environment and offering solutions to problems before they turn into disasters.
Dr Williams suggested that, instead of wielding a stethoscope, HP would use trillions of sensors to monitor the health of the Earth and use the information to head off natural calamities such as large scale flooding or wildfires.
Edited by lightowl, 27 July 2008 - 02:29 AM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 04:28 AM
Posted 27 July 2008 - 06:23 AM
Edited by Cody, 27 July 2008 - 07:15 AM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 08:03 AM
Edited by bobscrachy, 27 July 2008 - 08:06 AM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 03:52 PM
I think they pretty much left that up to what is physically possible. Obviously biology has created many excellent receptors that could be used to detect toxicity.I thought the Earth's nervous system was the Internet. These HP things are more like receptors. It would have been nice if they'd given us a little better sense of what they could do; that was pretty much left blank. Can they sense all kinds of chemical species? Ions, small molecules, nucleotides, peptides..?
Yea, I have been waiting for that for a long time now. I know they are starting to ship toilets from Japan that monitor ones urine and makes suggestions on how to change your diet. In the not so distant future, we will be able to buy hand held blood analyzers to help us diagnose and preempt disease, just like we can buy blood pressure readers today. The market is already booming with various kinds of strips to measure all kinds of biological indicators in our blood and urine. The problem is mainly that they are not repeatable tests, and still too expensive to use regularly.Could I have them implanted in my body to give me a constant readout of all pertinent chemistry? Then we'd really be talking.
In a sense that would be true, but I suspect one reason for the progress boom is the large number of people on the earth today, combined with access to education and the occasional war to provide government incentive to develop new technology and educate their people. If the 10% people you talk about where to be equally distributed between richer and poorer, the overall effect would probably be slower progress in the short term. In any case its hypothetical, because, just like with aging, the solution to let people die is morally not an option.We'd all be better off if the Earth had about one tenth the people it has now.
I think what he was talking about was the system as a whole, with the receptors as one part of the nervous system, and their software (in combination with the Internet) as another part.The "disease" analogy isn't that bad, although it kind of reeks of Gaia-ism. It's no worse than the "nervous system" analogy, which is also pretty stupid.
I think he might have had success using that analogy when explaining the system to laymen. That's probably why he used it in the interview. I don't think it was such a dumb thing to say. Perhaps if some of us here where his only audience.I doubt the guy really meant that humanity is the disease, as though we should all be killed. But it was a pretty dumb thing to say.
How do you think that food gets to the store for you to buy? Gas.
Exactly. This is why the peek oil gloom is unlikely. We will always have the ability to revert to other technologies that are less expensive. The interesting thing, I think, about why oil is so expensive today, is that all the cheap oil was coming from less problematic parts of the world. Now that that oil is coming to an end, or getting much harder to get our hands on, we are forced to buy it from people who don't like us. That's a problem, but eventually they will undermine their own business by forcing us to develop new sustainable technologies. Nuclear power, for example, uses resources that are plentiful in Canada and other western countries. With new reactors like the French "rapid reactors" we can eventually use most of the energy in the fuel, only being left over with waste to store for about 100-500 years. In that time-span, I am quite confident we will be able to develop technology to further limit that storage period. I'm quite optimistic that the worlds energy problems will be solved within the next 20-50 years. Hopefully when we have enough energy we can start giving it away to poor people, so they can get clean water (from condensation) and heating/cooling. And that's only nuclear energy. Massively distributed solar energy will do much to better living standards for poor people in third world countries, provided theirs and our governments lets them use the technology freely.Oil prices are breaking the worlds dependence. $5 oil means electric cars, and energy advancements from every viable direction.
Edited by lightowl, 27 July 2008 - 03:56 PM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:50 PM
Oil prices are breaking the worlds dependence. $5 oil means electric cars, and energy advancements from every viable direction. If you were truly worried about greenhouse gases causing environmental problems you would pray night and day for higher fuel prices.
Edited by Cody, 27 July 2008 - 07:53 PM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 08:48 PM
Oh my god, I can't even tell you how much I disagree with that. We're getting more and more efficient at using EVERY source of energy. Including oil. The entire world is beginning to cut back on carbon dioxide levles. What you believe is that the ENTIRE world has to be brought to their knees!? I should be praying for higher gas prices??? Oh my god. Definitely a democrat influenced belief. Besides, we're gonna begin using natural gas instead.
Edited by bobscrachy, 27 July 2008 - 08:50 PM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 09:02 PM
Oh my god, I can't even tell you how much I disagree with that. We're getting more and more efficient at using EVERY source of energy. Including oil. The entire world is beginning to cut back on carbon dioxide levles. What you believe is that the ENTIRE world has to be brought to their knees!? I should be praying for higher gas prices??? Oh my god. Definitely a democrat influenced belief. Besides, we're gonna begin using natural gas instead.
Look at the proof. JUST $4 gas has driven up the demand for hybrids, electrics, bio disel, wind and solar. T bone pickens even wants to spend billions to lobby the government into placing windmills up the center of the nation. Disagree with me all you want, facts speak for themselves.
Just to let you know, I am registered as a republican. But, sorting your opinions based on two very broad political ideologies is akin to being herded like a sheep.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:09 PM
Edited by cyborgdreamer, 27 July 2008 - 11:19 PM.
Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:45 PM
Well yeah, what do you expect? THEIR KILLING THE COUNTRY. Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you. I don't care what you say though, doing this to people is wrong. Your wrong in my opinion. So don't act like you are god and that there is NO WAY to dispute the things you say.
What are you talking about? You don't even know me.
Posted 28 July 2008 - 02:49 AM
Well yeah, what do you expect? THEIR KILLING THE COUNTRY. Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you. I don't care what you say though, doing this to people is wrong. Your wrong in my opinion. So don't act like you are god and that there is NO WAY to dispute the things you say.
What are you talking about? You don't even know me.
Drugs are bad champ.
Posted 28 July 2008 - 03:22 AM
Cody, bobscrachy just handed you a collection of facts, which I bolded above. Those things are true to the best of my knowledge. If you want to dispute them, then present the evidence necessary. Don't accuse people of acting like god just because you don't believe the facts they present.Oh my god, I can't even tell you how much I disagree with that. We're getting more and more efficient at using EVERY source of energy. Including oil. The entire world is beginning to cut back on carbon dioxide levles. What you believe is that the ENTIRE world has to be brought to their knees!? I should be praying for higher gas prices??? Oh my god. Definitely a democrat influenced belief. Besides, we're gonna begin using natural gas instead.
Look at the proof. JUST $4 gas has driven up the demand for hybrids, electrics, bio disel, wind and solar. T bone pickens even wants to spend billions to lobby the government into placing windmills up the center of the nation. Disagree with me all you want, facts speak for themselves.
Just to let you know, I am registered as a republican. But, sorting your opinions based on two very broad political ideologies is akin to being herded like a sheep.
Well yeah, what do you expect? THEIR KILLING THE COUNTRY. Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you. I don't care what you say though, doing this to people is wrong. Your wrong in my opinion. So don't act like you are god and that there is NO WAY to dispute the things you say.
What are you talking about? You don't even know me.
Posted 28 July 2008 - 03:31 AM
Cody, bobscrachy just handed you a collection of facts, which I bolded above. Those things are true to the best of my knowledge. If you want to dispute them, then present the evidence necessary. Don't accuse people of acting like god just because you don't believe the facts they present.Oh my god, I can't even tell you how much I disagree with that. We're getting more and more efficient at using EVERY source of energy. Including oil. The entire world is beginning to cut back on carbon dioxide levles. What you believe is that the ENTIRE world has to be brought to their knees!? I should be praying for higher gas prices??? Oh my god. Definitely a democrat influenced belief. Besides, we're gonna begin using natural gas instead.
Look at the proof. JUST $4 gas has driven up the demand for hybrids, electrics, bio disel, wind and solar. T bone pickens even wants to spend billions to lobby the government into placing windmills up the center of the nation. Disagree with me all you want, facts speak for themselves.
Just to let you know, I am registered as a republican. But, sorting your opinions based on two very broad political ideologies is akin to being herded like a sheep.
Well yeah, what do you expect? THEIR KILLING THE COUNTRY. Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you. I don't care what you say though, doing this to people is wrong. Your wrong in my opinion. So don't act like you are god and that there is NO WAY to dispute the things you say.
What are you talking about? You don't even know me.
Edited by Cody, 28 July 2008 - 03:47 AM.
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