159 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31284
References: <20081220100003.66511.qmail@rho.pair.com>
From: Kennita Watson <kennita@gocryo.org>
Subject: Re: "Community" or Not = Semantics
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 02:29:07 -0800

FTR: Even if we don't think of ourselves
as a community, from the outside we are
mostly "those [weirdos/kooks/godless heathens]
who want to freeze themselves", and any
attempts to dissociate ourselves just look
silly. Note that despite internecine squabbles,
Christians hang together for the sake of their
voting bloc (OK, that was unnecessarily snarky,
but it's late and I think you get the idea).

At least from the high-altitude view, we are
"the cryonics community", and it may behoove
us to act like it -- "safety in numbers",
"hang together or hang separately", "a house
divided against itself cannot stand", etc.
Our detractors will surely make use of "divide
and conquer" -- let's not do their work for
them.


Live long and prosper,
Kennita

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31341
From: Mark Plus <markplus@hotmail.com>
Subject: Marce Johnson dies, no cryosuspension(?)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:14:42 -0800

Shannon Vyff reports the sad news here:


http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=294806


"Around 2010 the world will be at a new orbit in history. . . Life expectancy
will be indefinite. Disease and disability will nonexist. Death wll be rare and
accidental -- but not permanent. We will continuously jettison our obsolescence
and grow younger." F.M. Esfandiary, "Up-Wing Priorities" (1981).
http://www.box.net/s.../ay9lub60ha.pdf


Mark Plus

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31344
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:11:06 -0700
From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer <kitty@morelife.org>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #31341: Marce Johnson dies, no cryosuspension(?) ...
References: <20090124100002.90718.qmail@rho.pair.com>

Hi Mark,

I and Paul read the thread on Imminst.org to which you provided a link,
thanks. We were very saddened to learn of the death and particularly the
non-cryopreservation, and thus the total loss, of Marce Johnson, who
Paul knew quite well from many visits to her home during the 1990s both
for cryonics meetings and for personally invited dinners in exchange for
helping her with computers. The only bright side (and it is slim in
comparison to the loss), particularly under our current financial
position, is that we will now receive back the $500 that we immediately
sent off when the appeal went out for funding her cryopreservation.

Paul would very much like to see the picture of Marce that was attached
to the major post about her on the Imminst.org thread, but neither he
nor I are members of Imminst.org or its forum and do not wish to be,
mainly because of its name. If you would place that picture somewhere
more publicly available or send it to me as an email attachment, I would
be most grateful, mainly for Paul.

Thanks in advance,

**Kitty

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Self-sovereignty, rational pursuit of optimal lifetime happiness,
individual responsibility, social preferencing & social contracting

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31345
From: "Chris Manning" <chauncy@westnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Death of Marce Johnson
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:06:49 +1100

I am sorry to read that Marce Johnson has died and been cremated.


I would like the money I donated for her cryopreservation to be now directed to
the fund for William O'Rights. Perhaps David Pizer or Mark Plus could give us an
update on the status of that fund (once they have factored in my re-directed
Marce Johnson money and any other similar donation). I will also send this email
off-list to David and Mark.


I see that William O'Rights indicated that he was happy for his fund to be
raided to make up Marce's shortfall (if enough to make a difference). Of course
he wrote that before we knew that it was too late but I think it was incredibly
generous of him.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31346
References: <20090124100002.90718.qmail@rho.pair.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Shannon <shannonvyff@yahoo.com>
Subject: Silver Lining:

--0-1645331093-1232848386=:67400

Hello all,


Marce did so much for our community and always expected to be cryo-preserved. It
is with much sadness that I've had to concede that we all did the best that we
could to help in her case, she has been cremated. Personally, I as a
Venturist--will do more in the future to help set up suspensions through our
Compassionate Care Fund.


Including now our efforts to raise enough funds to cryo-preserve William
O'Rights. Since learning of Marce's passing, 4 individuals have transferred the
money they donated for her fund to William O'Rights Fund. Everything donated
to William O'Right's fund is currently being matched by the Immortality
Institute: http://imminst.org/ I was happy to be able to transfer the $200.00
I donated to Marce and have it become $400.00 for O'Rights through the ImmInst
matching grant.


If you donated to Marce and would like your donation transferred to O'Rights it
will be doubled by The Immortality Institute and any extra funds beyond his
preservation costs will be used to seed a new Venturist Compassionate Care fund.
If you are able to transfer your donation to Marce over to William, having
your money doubled helps our cryonics community even more in the long run.
Right now William O'Rights fund is at about $22,500.00 after all the matching
donations and transfers have been calculated. I'll be finalizing with Ben Best
tonight when CI will officially take on the case, their fee is $28,000.00 and at
least a few thousand over that will be needed for the transport and suspension
costs.


The sooner you can transfer your donation to O'Rights, or make a straight
donation, the better, as his case is quite severe. He has lived beyond his
doctor's expectations, but now is in a lot of pain with the cancer tumor
effectively blocking his esophagus, he is lucky to get in two cups of water a
day. He has been having a difficult time even sleeping as his back pain is so
great he is considering morphine, but has been keeping off pain medications
valiantly far longer than most would be able. His weight is down, fluid is
filling his lungs, the cancer has spread throughout his body--there are 17 pages
of medical reports here:
http://www.imminst.o...o...3100&st=480 It is imperative
that we raise the funds if we can this week, there is not much time left.
William is taking chemo-therapy and is still fighting his cancer in various way,
I hope he lives a lot longer. We really need to get his suspension arrangements
in place
though, healthy or not everyone should have their arrangements in place ;-)


Also, times are tight right now for many and it is completely understandable if
you would like to have money you donated for Marce refunded to you, just let us
know in the email or letter you send.


If you don't recall the exact amount you donated just say, "Please transfer what
I donated to Marce, to William O'Right's fund". Or, "Please refund what I
donated, to me at: _______". Mark has the records and will be able to tell you
the amount.


Here is the contact information for transferring or refunding your donation to
Marce:

Mark Plus <markplus@hotmail.com>

or:

The Venturists
C/O The CreeksideLodge
11255 State Route 69
Mayer Arizona 86333


Thank you,

Shannon Vyff, Venturist Director, Immortality Institute Chair


PS any straight donations to William O'Rights can be made to the Venturist
google account http://www.quantium.....com/venturist/, they too will be doubled
by the Immortality Institute.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31348
From: "Jordan Sparks" <jsparks@free-dental.com>
References: <20090125100002.1896.qmail@rho.pair.com>
Subject: RE: Marce Johnson
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 07:52:27 -0800

I'm very sorry to hear about Marce Johnson. I need to point out that others
can learn a lesson from this. One way she could have survived would have
been to live in one of the 5 states that allow a person to designate who is
to be responsible for the disposition of their body. I know Oregon is one,
but I don't know the others off hand. In Oregon, it is written into our
statutes that a person can assign anyone at all to have this responsibility.
Regardless of how hostile the next of kin are, that is one area where a
deceased person in Oregon still clearly has rights. An example form is also
included in our statutes, and the hospitals and nursing homes are aware of
this. Makes things much easier.

Jordan Sparks

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31352
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:05:10 -0700
Subject: Many states give rights to decide your body's disposition
From: Finance Department <knotwiller@gmail.com>

--0016e6de17ad23b79504616ef66e

This is in reference to Message #31348 from Jordan Sparks. A simple Google
search "states that allow a person to designate who is to be responsible for
the disposition of their body" turns up a number of interesting resources,
especially:

http://www.funerals....decision-rights

There are way more than 5 states which have such provisions. Many states
also give the ability to designate one's personal preference in a will or
similar document, which the next of kin is required to honor and carry out.
Anyone making such a legal designation would not need to designate a person
to be responsible for deciding what to do.

This situation, then, is not as bad as I thought. Except, of course, for
Marce Johnson. California, where she presumably still lived, has both
provisions. The apparent reason, then, that her husband and children
successfully got her cremated is that she made no such designation in
writing. According to Mike Darwin's writings on the subject, she had no
current cryopreservation paperwork in place, and her husband ended up
refusing to sign any for her. There is of course a slim chance that (1) she
actually had an old will or other document with such designations in it, and
her family ignored it, or (2) the prior cryonics company(ies) of which she
was a member might have old records containing such a document from her. If
either of those were the case, it would further compound the magnitude of
this disaster.

No cheers today,

FD

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31369
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 21:38:00 -0700
From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer <kitty@morelife.org>
Subject: Re: #31363: Protection for cryonicists [david pizer]
References: <20090131100001.99542.qmail@rho.pair.com>



Dave,

First, most states and Canadian provinces have both Power of Attorney
(which is generally only about material assets) and Power of Attorney
for Health Care provisions. If these are done correctly, they should be
essentially incontestable (unbreakable) by any lawsuits from relatives,
even spouses.
Second, during the operation of CryoCare I and Bob Krueger (and others)
did a lot of thinking and working on a setup called the Patient Advocate
(PA). Briefly, this was a legal entity (think of it as a trust) that was
composed of trusted friends of a cryonicist and the founding document of
which contained a method of extending its existence in perpetuity by
acquiring new members of the group to replace old ones as they too were
cryopreserved. The PA's purpose was to see that the patient's wishes and
welfare, as s/he had best communicated in writing to its members, were
carried out and met. The PA would hold both types of Power of Attorney
and would assume effective control of the cryonicist if s/he became
incompetent and when s/he was cryopreserved. The PA was the legal owner
of the cryopreservation patient's human remains (rather than the
cryonics organization) and had the ability to move him/her from one long
term care service provider (currently only multiple-service cryonics
organizations) to another if necessary.

I still have records of the details that I and Bob Krueger had worked
out just before CryoCare was terminated and which, because of that and
related events, never became an official part of the CryoCare structure.
These include a very detailed agreement that the cryonicist and his/her
chosen PA members would all execute to initiate the PA, and included the
details of how the PA would be self-perpetuating until the cryonicist
was restored to life.

--Paul


**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Self-sovereignty, rational pursuit of optimal lifetime happiness,
individual responsibility, social preferencing & social contracting

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31371
From: HEYMIKE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 01:43:54 EST
Subject: Re: venturist Power of Attorney

In a message dated 1/31/09 2:00:55 AM, owner-cryonet@cryonet.org writes:


>
> Anyhow please feel free to send your comments to Cryonet,
>
> Hi David, I would welcome such a service. It wouldn't be foolproof but at

least I wouldn't be relying on fools when I was unable to manage my own affairs.
Should be fairly easy to draft a durable power of attorney for decedent
remains and medical rights decisions. People do it all the time.

Only an attorney can save us now...

Mike in L.A.

[thefirstimmortal]

Tag post 31379