159 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31010
From: "Robert Newport" <theholodoc@gmail.com>
Subject: insurance funding re message #31007
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 09:54:59 -0700

Hi Everyone: Stodolsky's warning is rendered moot by the very simple
strategy of assigning ownership of the policy to the cryonic's organization.
It is Alcor's policy to seek an ownership position, however they do not
always require this. Once the policy is no longer "owned " by the member, it
is not available, nor is any of its cash value, for end of life expenses.
Dr. Robert

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31011
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 18:57:36 -0700
From: "Charles Platt" <other@platt.us>
Subject: Communitarian Thinking in Cryonics

> Is there someone who can shake loose the money to try this, or do we
> have to see many more disasters and last minute fundraising efforts?

To me this is a classic illustration of the general pattern whereby
one person's problem or misfortune provokes a proposal to
"collectivize" a system so that the misfortune can "never happen
again."

This is especially ironic since, as I understand it, William O'Rights
is not the kind of guy who is well disposed toward collectivism.

Cryonics arrangements are a contract between an individual and a
corporation. The contract may be lengthy, but the concept is simple:
If I so choose, I can try to protect my future life. Period. No one
else needs to be involved, or should be involved.

While fund-raising efforts may be well-intentioned, they greatly
confuse this simple concept by introducing the idea of "community,"
with consequences that David Stodolsky seems to like, but which I find
disturbing. As soon as we have a community we embark on a journey
toward evils such as peer pressure and guilt, encouraging us to feel a
reflexive obligation to our companions, not because we have an
individual affection for them but simply because they are "part of our
community." Worse, we may see the development of an "us and them"
mentality, with "us" being somehow more worthy than "them" outside the
community.

This leads to the usual entitlement problems. Let us suppose the
supporters of Mr. O'Rights are successful in their effort to seek
donations. Does this encourage other people to feel similarly
entitled? In other words, does it encourage people to be
irresponsible? Or let us suppose they are not successful. Will this
tragedy result in creation of an "emergency fund" of some kind? In
which case, who qualifies for this fund, and how is it controlled, and
how can we protect it from abuse? Sounds as if we need a new layer of
administration. Who appoints the administrators? How do we prevent
them from being more generous to their friends than to people whom
they happen to dislike? And so on.

The concept of community brings other mischief, such as the feeling
that people in the community who are the most fortunate, or well off,
should "give something back" to the community, even if they never took
anything from it to begin with. What this really means, of course, is
that people who regard themselves as unfortunate, or less well off,
may want other people to help them out--because, after all, they are
fellow members of our community.

I realize William O'Rights is not asking people to do anything that
they don't want to do. He's simply trying to evade mortality, and I
don't blame him. I see his well-wishers as the source of all these
problems, since they have made this a public issue instead of a
private one. In the process they have fostered the very troubling
concept that people in the "cryonics community" are somehow more
worthy than people outside it.

I have already seen discussions of Mr. O'Rights' commitment to
cryonics, as if his personal beliefs somehow make his life more
valuable. This, to me, is a short step away from cultism. If my
daughter or my significant other are not signed up for cryonics, does
this count against the value of their lives in some way?

I suggest it is unwise to put ourselves in a position where these
questions can be raised. Fund-raising of this type should best be done
on a private, person-to-person basis, and certainly not by invoking
the concept of community.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31012
From: Mark Plus <markplus@hotmail.com>
Subject: Google Checkout for William O'Rights
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 17:47:40 -0700


The Venturists have set up a Google Checkout account for accepting donations for
William O'Rights.


Just go to the Venturists' website, http://www.venturist.org and use the button
under the title "Bill O'Rights Support."


If you don't have a Google/Gmail account, email me at markplus@hotmail.com and I
can send you a form to make a donation through your email address from a
different domain name.



"Around 2010 the world will be at a new orbit in history. . . Life expectancy
will be indefinite. Disease and disability will nonexist. Death wll be rare and
accidental -- but not permanent. We will continuously jettison our obsolescence
and grow younger." F.M. Esfandiary, "Up-Wing Priorities" (1981).

Mark Plus

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31010
From: "Robert Newport" <theholodoc@gmail.com>
Subject: insurance funding re message #31007
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 09:54:59 -0700

Hi Everyone: Stodolsky's warning is rendered moot by the very simple
strategy of assigning ownership of the policy to the cryonic's organization.
It is Alcor's policy to seek an ownership position, however they do not
always require this. Once the policy is no longer "owned " by the member, it
is not available, nor is any of its cash value, for end of life expenses.
Dr. Robert

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31011
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 18:57:36 -0700
From: "Charles Platt" <other@platt.us>
Subject: Communitarian Thinking in Cryonics

> Is there someone who can shake loose the money to try this, or do we
> have to see many more disasters and last minute fundraising efforts?

To me this is a classic illustration of the general pattern whereby
one person's problem or misfortune provokes a proposal to
"collectivize" a system so that the misfortune can "never happen
again."

This is especially ironic since, as I understand it, William O'Rights
is not the kind of guy who is well disposed toward collectivism.

Cryonics arrangements are a contract between an individual and a
corporation. The contract may be lengthy, but the concept is simple:
If I so choose, I can try to protect my future life. Period. No one
else needs to be involved, or should be involved.

While fund-raising efforts may be well-intentioned, they greatly
confuse this simple concept by introducing the idea of "community,"
with consequences that David Stodolsky seems to like, but which I find
disturbing. As soon as we have a community we embark on a journey
toward evils such as peer pressure and guilt, encouraging us to feel a
reflexive obligation to our companions, not because we have an
individual affection for them but simply because they are "part of our
community." Worse, we may see the development of an "us and them"
mentality, with "us" being somehow more worthy than "them" outside the
community.

This leads to the usual entitlement problems. Let us suppose the
supporters of Mr. O'Rights are successful in their effort to seek
donations. Does this encourage other people to feel similarly
entitled? In other words, does it encourage people to be
irresponsible? Or let us suppose they are not successful. Will this
tragedy result in creation of an "emergency fund" of some kind? In
which case, who qualifies for this fund, and how is it controlled, and
how can we protect it from abuse? Sounds as if we need a new layer of
administration. Who appoints the administrators? How do we prevent
them from being more generous to their friends than to people whom
they happen to dislike? And so on.

The concept of community brings other mischief, such as the feeling
that people in the community who are the most fortunate, or well off,
should "give something back" to the community, even if they never took
anything from it to begin with. What this really means, of course, is
that people who regard themselves as unfortunate, or less well off,
may want other people to help them out--because, after all, they are
fellow members of our community.

I realize William O'Rights is not asking people to do anything that
they don't want to do. He's simply trying to evade mortality, and I
don't blame him. I see his well-wishers as the source of all these
problems, since they have made this a public issue instead of a
private one. In the process they have fostered the very troubling
concept that people in the "cryonics community" are somehow more
worthy than people outside it.

I have already seen discussions of Mr. O'Rights' commitment to
cryonics, as if his personal beliefs somehow make his life more
valuable. This, to me, is a short step away from cultism. If my
daughter or my significant other are not signed up for cryonics, does
this count against the value of their lives in some way?

I suggest it is unwise to put ourselves in a position where these
questions can be raised. Fund-raising of this type should best be done
on a private, person-to-person basis, and certainly not by invoking
the concept of community.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31012
From: Mark Plus <markplus@hotmail.com>
Subject: Google Checkout for William O'Rights
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 17:47:40 -0700


The Venturists have set up a Google Checkout account for accepting donations for
William O'Rights.


Just go to the Venturists' website, http://www.venturist.org and use the button
under the title "Bill O'Rights Support."


If you don't have a Google/Gmail account, email me at markplus@hotmail.com and I
can send you a form to make a donation through your email address from a
different domain name.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31014
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 08:59:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <pizerdavid@yahoo.com>
Subject: more reliable then paypal


Yesterday Mark Plus posted a message about the new Google Checkout system. It
is similar to paypal only as far as I know Google has not had the trouble with
the feds in handling money for 501c3 organizations and has not confiscated any
of their money.


So those who like to use paypal may I suggest google as an alternative. Also for
the rest of this year, Google is not charging us any fees like paypal does so
all of your donation will go to help Mr. O'Rights.

Marks message from yesterday is printed again below.

Best regards to all.

David Pizer

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31016
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 22:52:34 -0700
From: Gary Kline <kline@thought.org>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #31014
References: <20080904090002.55043.qmail@rho.pair.com>

On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:00:02AM -0000, CryoNet wrote:
> CryoNet - Thu 4 Sep 2008
>
> #31014: more reliable then paypal [david pizer]
>

Just a heads-up that I submitted my contribution thru Paypal
at the address given. No problem. Seemed to get thru via the
gmail account given.

Here's hoping that it helps Mr O'Right to suspension, and that in
several score years hence, all of us will be sitting around a
large circular table somewhere, having a double espresso, and
discussing this fondly.

gary kline

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31017
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:51:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Shannon <shannonvyff@yahoo.com>
Subject: Donation to William O'Rights Cryonic Preservation Fund




ImmInst will get your donation to the Venturists, do you want it going to Marce,
back to you, or to the general Venturist fund if William is unable to be
preserved?


Health, Happiness, Wisdom & Longevity :-) -- best wishes from... --Shannon
Vyff Immortality Institute Chair

Edited by Shannon Vyff, 18 April 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31018
From: RudiHoffman@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 17:33:30 EDT
Subject: Life Insurance Funding, some definitive information from Rudi...

Hello, Dear Cryoneters:

This is Rudi Hoffman from Florida. Hope you are giving your life the

maximum effort it deserves, and that your life is providing at least a
reasonable
amount of joy and satisfaction.

It has been some time since I posted on Cryonet. I just returned from a
conference/gathering in Las Vegas regarding cryonics trusts-- and solidifying

cryonics logistics-- and figuring out ways to maintain and grow wealth while in
cryonic suspension. A wonderful gathering, attended by very intelligent and
creative people. Most of them a lot smarter...and a lot richer than I am.
Congratulations to the genuine cryonicists reading this post...you are in a
group composed of some of the best educated and intelligent people on the
planet.

In catching up on cryonet postings, I noted the discussions of life
insurance.

I want to thank Finance Department and John DeRivas and others who corrected
the posting re: your life insurance cash value being at risk. The purpose
of this posting is to be precise and compelling regarding funding and life
insurance information. The following is germaine:

1. Cryonics funding life insurance is normally structured with the cryonics
organization as OWNER as well as beneficiary or partial beneficiary of the
policy. Of the hundreds of policies for funding cryonics I have personally
written over the last few years, there are less than a handful which are not
owned by the cryonics organization.

This obviously means that the policy (s) are NOT in your name, and do NOT
count as an asset for medicaid qualification purposes.

Additionally, for estate planning purposes the life insurance is generally
owned by a trust, in a so called "ILIT" or Irrevocable LIfe Insurance Trust.
This keeps the policy cash value AND the death proceeds out of the estate of
the insured, and means that the resulting proceeds are NOT subject to probate
and estate taxes. Proceeds are also generally free of income taxes, and
creditorproof.

2. The guaranteed universal life policies we normally fund suspensions with
have a relatively low cash accumulation value, as they are not designed as
"overfunded" tax free life insurance investment programs.
The cash accumulations in these policies would generally be under the
"medicaid minium" and allow the policy to remain in place.

Neglecting to buy your life insurance on the chance that you are going to be
indigent and on government dole programs and have to spend down part of your
cash value in your life insurance is just plain ridiculous.

3. Life insurance is normally, even if OWNED by the insured, PROTECTED from
creditors. This is, of course, a distinction from the concern over "spend
down from medicaid/medicare." But it is a very important and related
provision of life insurance.

The specific state by state chart showing this is referenced here:
_http://www.assetprotectionbook.com/s1_asset_protection_state_resources.htm_
(http://www.assetprot...e_resources.htm)

4. If you do not have SOLID, PROVEN funding in place to secure your

suspension, you are NOT a real cryonicist. You can call yourself an "activist"
or

anything else you want. You are not just putting your own suspension at risk.
If there are delays in your suspension due to your neglecting to "have your
act together" regarding the written and properly funded directives to put

you into suspension, there is a risk that you may give the entire enterprize of
cryonics a black eye. You make this noble effort appear amateurish and

ignorant and unscientific. Some planning, even imperfectly done, is better
than
waiting until it is too late.

5. In should be pointed out that life insurance policies with named

beneficiaries AVOID the delays and problems of probate. In other words, if
your
cryonics organization is named as beneficiary or partial beneficiary of the
policy, your proceeds will go directly to the named beneficiary upon
pronouncement of legal "death."

This information, which is accurate, supercedes and corrects some of the
disinformation that has been posted on cryonet recently.

An actual case I delivered a cryonics "death benefit" on involved an
individual whose four children were VERY unsupportive of their father being

suspended. It did not matter. Your wishes will be carried out if you have
funding

and directives set up properly. If you don't, they won't. It is that simple.

6. Folks, this is a DEADLY serious issue. Proper and solid funding for
your suspension, for the suspension of people YOU care about, is absolutely

vital. If you are unsure about some element of the cryonics process, or any of
the variables that people have legitimate concerns about, so be it. But,

please, get your funding in PLACE, make your family or loved ones or a charity

the beneficiary until you get your questions answered to your satisfaction, and
then you can always REDIRECT the beneficiary and ownership of your policy.
If you can't afford a permanent universal life policy, buy an upgradable term
policy, which locks in your insurability and your rate for a term or period
of time. Do your homework WHILE you are covered and have secured the OPTIONS
you may want for yourself and those you care about.

FUNDING is MISSION CRITICAL to your suspension. It is not something you
should be getting advice from dillatantes and cousin Billy Bob about, or even
well meaning and unevenly informed posters on cryonet.

7. Sorry if any of this sound unduly harsh or cold or unfeeling. Like most
of you, I genuinely CARE about both the realities and the perceptions about
cryonics. This lifeboat must be as secure as we can make it. My sincere
thanks go to the foresightful humans making cryonics a viable and workable
alternative to non-existence. I would be happy to be corrected if any of the
above is not accurate or precise or is incomplete or misleading in any way.
Because reality matters to folks like us.

Respectfully Submitted,

Rudi

Rudi Richard Hoffman CFP CLU ChFC

Board Member Financial Planning Association fpafla.com
Board Member Salvation Army salvationarmy.org
Member Alcor Life Extension Foundation alcor.org
Certified Financial Planner™ CFP Board of Standards
Member Libertarian Party libertarianparty.org
Member National Rifle Association nra.org
Member World Transhumanist Association http://transhumanism.org/
World's Leading Cryonics Insurance Provider rudihoffman.com

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31021
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 09:08:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <pizerdavid@yahoo.com>


Most of your probably know by now that we are trying to help terminal cryonicist
supporter William O'Rights to get suspended at his legal death.


The William O'Rights fund is growing a little every day. Some of you probably
would like to know more about Mr. O'Rights. Here is a little info on William
O'Rights:


He considers himself not courageous in his battle with cancer and his desire to
be suspended and come back in the future, just a person trying to live who wants
more life.

William recently told me the following:


"What I would like to be apart of my bio is that I am a true blue libertarian. I
live by the libertarian creed. My understanding is that there are many
libertarians in cryonics, though IaC ve not always been able to tell. Also, I
donaC t mind you listing that I was 2001 USAC World Champion. And also that I am
a Life Extensionist and a Big Fan of Bob Ettinger and Saul Kent."


"I currently am living with my friends Mom, who IaC ve known for 15 years. She
has taken care of 3 other terminal relatives.. Her father died of the same kind
of cancer I have. It is in a peaceful setting in the deep woods of Maine."


For those of you who would like to help Mr. O'Rights to receive a suspension at
his legal death you can send a contribution to the Society for Venturism for his
benefit. If we raise enough money then CI will provide a suspension for him.

Please send your contribution to:
The Venturists
C/O Creekside Lodge
11255 State Route 69
Mayer Arizona, 86333


Thanks to all who have sent in a contribution so far. It is gratifying to see
so many fellow cryoncists helping one of ours who is in need.

David Pizer

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31023
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:05:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <pizerdavid@yahoo.com>
Subject: other possible use for the money


We cryonicists (at leat most of us) probably realize that the United States (and
probably most countries similar to us) are headed for some very troubling times
in the next 1 to 10 years (and maybe longer). I don't believe which ever party
of candidates win the coming election will make much difference in the
financial problems that countries are now facing.


So I would like to begin a discussion here on Cryonet on the idea that if the
money collected for William O'Rights and Marce Johnson does not get used for
their suspensions for some reason or other, the money would be left in the bank
to be used to protect either Alcor's or CI's patients if Alcor or CI should fall
on hard times with government interference or if some private group did
something that would cost either of them all their money or put them out of
business.


This fund could be used to move the patients of either company into temporary
holding until a reorganization could be completed or some other solution created
and implemented.


I hope as, even as we all considering the economic future of the world in these
coming discussions, that both Alcor and CI are already taking steps to
accumulate large sums of money to be used in case things get really bad.


But if a judgement (or other action) from an individual or government should tie
up the assets of either CI or Alcor, or both, it would be good to have some
money in another organization that does NOT *do* cryonics. In other words, The
Society for Venturism does not fall in the same exact category as a suspension
organization like Alcor or CI and might not be attacked in the same way if the
United States goes into a depression or worse.


I have not brought this idea up to the board of directors of the Society for
Venturism yet as I wanted to see if they was cryo-public support for the idea.
If there is a lot of support for this idea I will make some kind of motion to
our board.


Of course, the contributors would have (and stil do have) the choice of having
the money they contributed to William or Marce returned to them as that is what
was promised to them when they sent it in. But some people (I suspect many)
would agree to leave it in the fund if the excess money was earmarked to protect
patients in storage in the future.

Any comments?

David Pizer

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.o...e.cgi?msg=31023

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31026
From: "Chris Manning" <chauncy@westnet.com.au>
References: <20080907090003.94568.qmail@rho.pair.com>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #31020 - #31022
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:07:00 +1000

> Message #31022
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:53:17 -0700
> From: Gary Kline <kline@thought.org>
> Subject: Re: CryoNet #31017 - #31019
> References: <20080906090004.1426.qmail@rho.pair.com>

> Seriously, Shannon, barring some "Constitutional Legislation,"
> or other such, I am > 90% certain reclaiming the suspended will be
> reality. Guessing sometime before 2050 will be the first
> successful tests of mammals. It it not only a common-sense
> issue, but also one involving pragmatic wisdom to "save" the best
> and brightest. It's a given that all people are born with equal
> rights and value; but humans, like every other complex life form,
> change according to the laws and theories of Complexity
> mathematics. Thus, "Smith" may wind up a mass murderer, while
> "Jones" may earn three Nobel prizes after conquering much
> suffering around the globe. In other words, while everyone
> enters with certain inalienable right, how we live our lives
> determines what we're each worth toward the ens.

While I of course feel more comfortable about some people being suspended
than others, I am not comfortable with some of the ideas expressed above.
Surely cryonic suspension should be available to anyone who wants it (as
long as it can be paid for) irrespective of whether they are amongst the
'best' or 'brightest' or how they have lived their lives?

And it isn't always a simple case of 'Smith' or 'Jones' as described above.
For example Australian mass murderer Mark 'Chopper' Read is also an artist
and has written a number of books.

I am not entirely sure that we ought to be publicising Mr O'Rights' views,
not because I don't agree with them but because it would seem to imply that
we need not be concerned about needy cases where the person holds views we
might disagree with.

If Mr O'Rights can't be suspended and Marce is still living, I am happy for
my donation to be re-directed to her suspension fund, and vice versa.

About raffles I got two emails off-list about the situation in the US.
Thanks to those people.

> Networking and email were just being born when I
> got my degree, so there were no undergrad classes on it. Yet
> another time-sync!

Tell me about it. :-(

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31038
References: <20080910090002.50833.qmail@rho.pair.com>
From: Kennita Watson <kennita@gocryo.org>
Subject: Re: update on William's condition
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:56:55 -0700

david pizer wrote:

> William has not been able to eat or hold down vitamins because of
> the chemo.

I'm sure everyone here knows that marijuana helps with
nausea. I also recall reading that fasting for two or
three days before chemo can make the chemo more
effective (non-proliferating cells start to shut down,
leaving the cancer cells to take up the chemo agent).

Live long and prosper,
Kennita

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31039
From: "Steve Harris" <sbharris1@earthlink.com>
References: <20080910090002.50833.qmail@rho.pair.com>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #31036 O'Rights and Radiation
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:16:18 -0700

Comment: Radiation doesn't cause nausea unless the beam hits
your gut, which today's very fine beams can be adjusted not
to do, if you like. Otherwise it's nearly without side
effect when administered to lung or bone in a narrow beam.
There is typically some redness of the skin akin to mild
sunburn, but that's all.

It would be silly to refuse it for a bad reason. It may not
change survival time, but it will shrink any tumor it's
directed at, and will help pain associated with tumor
expansion, which is the typical way that tumors generate
pain. It should also delay (but not prevent) pneumonia from
tumor blockage of lung airways.

Steve Harris

----- Original Message -----
> Message #31036
> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
> From: William O'Rights <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Dear Dad

> A The next step is supposed to be radiation treatment, but
> I may have to refuse that. I am simply not well enough to
> go thru a 3-week course that also causes nausea and
> vomiting. I donaC t have enough fat reserves for a 21 day
> Radiation treatment session. <

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31045
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:11:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: William O'Rights <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
Subject: =?utf-8?B?RGVhdGggaXMgc3RhcmluZyBhdCBtZeKApg==?=

--0-122538171-1221153094=:30889

A

IaC m getting my terminology confused. The last post I wrote, aC There were 2
letters I wrote during my first round of chemoaC|aC I said aC roundaC when I
believe I should have said, aC cycleaC . I am currently on my second cycle; the
first cycle consisted of 4 rounds, each spaced 21 days apart. Each treatment I
believe is called a round. This is the 2nd letter that was referenced in my last
post that I wrote to Bob while I was in jail during my first cycle and after my
4th round.
A
Dear Bob,

I have a little over a month to go before I am released. My 4th round of chemo
has hit me very hard, Right now I am dreadfully sick from the chemotherapy.
These treatments are awful, leaving me sick and weak, but as sick as I am from
these treatments, IaC m not taking my fate lying down. The tumor in my leg is
active again and some days I suffer in great pain, but because IaC m an
Immortalist I am able to defy the pain. No amount of pain and suffering can
diminish my hope of an eternal physical life. ThataC s all well and fine for me
but I am reminded that not everyone has the same pain threshold. Death for them
might seem like a blessing, especially if they are not planning on being
physically immortal.


While I cannot agree with such a decision I can empathize and imagine the
magnitude of such intolerable pain and the decision to put an end to oneaC s
life. I imagine that only those who have been this sick or suffered the agony of
crippling pain understand the lure and peace offered by death. I am an
Immortalist however, so no amount of suffering could deter me.


I will not accept the prognosis of my demise without a fight. I plan on beating
the odds and surviving this terminal lung cancer. I plan on fighting hard, not
because I fear death but because I so love life. Death is staring at me and IaC
m staring it right back without blinking.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31047
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: William O'Rights <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Dear Cindy

This letter was written to my Cousin Cindy in late early May.
A
Dear Cindy,

Got your card today, thank you. I will keep you posted, I am going to be
released May 21st, but that date has changed a few times. When in the summer
were you planning on going to Maine?


This week was a difficult one for me as I learned that Donald Daney my best
friend since I was 5 years old died. I was less than a month from being out; I
did not even consider the possibility that I would not see him alive.


You wrote, aC IaC m glad you have such a great attitude about everything.aC
Cindy, a terminal cancer diagnosis may be the end of the world to one person, a
time to surrender to God for another, a call to battle for yet another. For me
itaC s a challenge, it is the call to battle for life.. The primeval urge to
survive at almost any cost is at the root of my response to that challenge.


Terminal cancer is a serious crisis, but isnaC t life a matter of adapting to
one challenge after another? And even if I canaC t beat this, there is no reason
why I cannot maintain a fine quality of life during this life-threatening
crisis. A diagnosis of terminal cancer with a future date of death does not
demand that I stop living today.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31049
From: "J Coetzee MSc" <agingtheory@gmail.com>
References: <20080912090002.75771.qmail@rho.pair.com>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #31042 - #31047
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:31:13 -0400

"no amount of suffering could deter me." I don't think you have suffered
enough to know. The time will come when you will beg to be put to death. I
had a heart attack, pancreatitis, kidney stones and a hip replacement.
Cryonics will be the last thing on your mind. That is why you have to
prepare now.
I know what I am talking about.

Basie

[thefirstimmortal]

Just for you Basie.

Attached Files

•  Bike__BLTBYME___001_Accident.jpeg   135.72KB   2 downloads

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31054
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 20:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: William O'Rights <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
Subject: I beg to differ Basie

--0-1123448784-1221364493=:51856

I beg to differ Basie,

On June 7 1996 at 9:30 while driving my motorcycle on I-95 on my way to Old
Orchard Beach I lost control of my motorcycle and at speeds unknown and crashed
sideways into a guardrail snaping my right femur bone from my body, shattering
my pelvic bone and I broke two disks in my spine. The link below is a fairly
graphic picture of me in the hospital, I recommend that you enlarge it by double
clicking on the pic so you can get a closer look Basie. Note the rods jetting
out of my body in the hip region. You can see where my leg bone blasted out the
side of my muscle and skin. I have had the pleasure of looking at my bone marrow
from a leg that was attached by only my inside leg muscle. You can actually see
my leg muscle from where they could not stretch my skin back because a chunk
was missing.

http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=263212

The fourth of July this year I had a tumor encasing my heart and shutting it
down. I have had since last October bone cancer that is eating away at my left
femur and other various part of my body. I've sat here more than a few times
coughing and splattering blood over my computer screen from lung cancer.

I certainly don't want to minimize your experience with pain, but a nice neat
planned hip replacement done in a hospital setting doesn't really compare with
having it shattered against a cold hard steal guardrail on the turnpike. When I
say no amount of suffering could deter me I'm not speaking in hypothetical terms
Basie, I'm speaking from experience. I know what I am talking about.

Pain is friend and foe alike, adversary and ally. I hate its frequent
companionship and yet it challenges me. It energizes my senses, in the presence
of pain I become alert. I have learned to embrace my pain. Pain confirms that,
at my heart-core, life, not death, is the authority. The dead do not feel pain.
Pain is the affirmation of the living.

I assure you that there will NEVER come a time when I will beg to be put to
death. And I'll say it again Basie, NO AMOUNT OF SUFFERING WILL DETER ME.
Oh yeah Basie, one more thing you might want to note in that pic, I'm smiling.
Live Long and Well Basie
William O'Rights



--0-1123448784-1221364493=:51856

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31057
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: William O'Rights <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Silly and Foolish

Steve Harris
>Comment: Radiation doesn't cause nausea unless the beam hits
>your gut,

Actually Steve, Radiation therapy to the stomach, abdomen, or pelvis can often
cause nausea and vomiting. Gastrointestinal toxicity can occur following
irradiation of thoracic, abdominal, or pelvic malignancies whenever normal
gastrointestinal structures are located within the radiation therapy field.
Radiation-induced nausea and vomiting typically occur within 24 hours of
treatment, and over 80 percent of patients undergoing radiation of the upper
body will develop symptoms of nausea and vomiting. The gastrointestinal side
effects of RT include early acute toxicity, such as diarrhea and nausea, that
are experienced during or shortly after the completion of a course of therapy.

> which today's very fine beams can be adjusted not
>to do, if you like.

That assumes that one has the options such as CyberKnife, which is a
comparatively less invasive, more precise radiation technique that can deliver
concentrated and accurate beams of radiation to any site in the body. This
system combines robotics and advanced image guidance cameras to locate the
tumor's position in the body and deliver highly focused beams of radiation that
converge at the tumor, avoiding normal tissue for the most part. It is a fairly
impressive and successful method used to treat spinal tumors or tumors at other
critical locations that are not amenable to open surgery or radiation, as well
as to treat medically inoperable patients.


And of course there is Proton beam radiation therapy. This is one of the most
precise and sophisticated forms of external beam radiation therapy available
that I know of. The advantage of proton radiation therapy over x-rays is its
ability to deliver higher doses of shaped beams of radiation directly into the
tumor while minimizing the dose to normal tissues. This leads to reduced side
effects and improved survival rates.

There are not that many treatment centers worldwide for Proton beam radiation
therapy, the closest that I am aware of is the Northeast Proton Treatment Center
at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. I unfortunately live in Maine, so
these two options are equally not available to me, whether I like it or not.


I was told that the only machine available to me at the time was
Three-dimensional conformal radiation therapy (3D-CRT). 3D-CRT is a technique
that uses imaging computers to map the location of a tumor, but it old tech. It
is possible to reduce radiation damage to normal tissues surrounding the tumor
by up to 50 percent, but that's not the kind of numbers one wants to hear when
their tumor is resting up against the heart, esophagus, and lung. I was told to
expect not only Radiation-induced nausea and vomiting,but radiation issues in my
esophagus.


At the time that was written my tumor was still fairly larger. It was to later
shrink to a small 1cm, and I found out that Intensity modulated radiation
therapy (IMRT) was available for me to use. IMRT creates a shaped radiation
beam, delivering high doses of radiation to the tumor and significantly smaller
doses of radiation to the surrounding normal tissues, not as well as CyberKnife
or Proton beam radiation therapy, but good enough to blast a 1cm tumor without
too much surrounding tissue damage. Unfortunately by then, the doctors adopted a
wait and see approach, 40 days later we were back to square one with an 11.4cm
tumor.

> Otherwise it's nearly without side
>effect when administered to lung or bone in a narrow beam.
>There is typically some redness of the skin akin to mild
>sunburn, but that's all.


Actually that not quite accurate. The most selective Radiation cannot
selectively target the tumor without some damage getting there so even the most
sophisticated machines have the issue of hitting normal cells within the
radiation field, and those cell suffer damage, leading to potentially serious
side effects. Although radiation is directed at the tumor, it is inevitable that
the normal, non-cancerous tissues surrounding the tumor will also be affected
by the radiation causing damage. The radiation beam does not magically miss all
of the healthy tissue. Radiation-induced fibrosis, a serious late effect of
radiotherapy, is mainly characterized by changes in the connective tissue of the
lungs. Sort of a concern of mine. The lung is among the most radiosensitive
organs, and the risk of severe side effects seriously compromises the whole
picture. Radiation pneumonitis (inflammation of the lung) is a common acute side
effect occurring many patients

treated for lung cancer between one month and six months after radiotherapy.
Radiation therapy-induced fibrosis is associated with scarring of the lung and
typically occurs months to years after radiotherapy.

> It may not
>change survival time, but it will shrink any tumor it's
>directed at, and will help pain associated with tumor
>expansion, which is the typical way that tumors generate
>pain. It should also delay (but not prevent) pneumonia from
>tumor blockage of lung airways.


Well Steve, if it doesn't change the survival time than it is wholly irrelevant,
because that's all I really care about.

>It would be silly to refuse it for a bad reason.

And Foolish to use it for the wrong reasons;)
Live Long and Well
William O'Rights

[Solipsism]

well. I think you are honest, you are a very nice person, I applaud your fight, continue if you wish, it is greatly welcome, to inform us about the current medical procedures there in the US. Thanks for sharing this with us! I hope you will one day enter in a paradise engineered world. If you want to answer these questions here:

1) What do you want to get in your life now?
2) What will you say if you get back to life with cryonics, your first words?
3) In what conditions do you hope to return to life?
4) So far is your life finish? we all know you are not!

--Jonathan

[angelin]

Cryonics is part of the death-care industry. It's not like getting a heart transplant as Wowk has maintained. Legally, cryonics is in the death-law framework. And a cryonaut may very well be dead. My post in AU about the Shroedingers cat was erased.... even though it got good reviews.

==================

Angelinjones

Health Advisor

[thefirstimmortal]

well. I think you are honest, you are a very nice person, I applaud your fight, continue if you wish, it is greatly welcome, to inform us about the current medical procedures there in the US. Thanks for sharing this with us! I hope you will one day enter in a paradise engineered world. If you want to answer these questions here:

1) What do you want to get in your life now?
2) What will you say if you get back to life with cryonics, your first words?
3) In what conditions do you hope to return to life?
4) So far is your life finish? we all know you are not!

--Jonathan

Now Jonathan,
I told you I had you on the list after I ran down the IVVc therapy, and even at that I said I would begin the process by reading all of your past interviews. I don't have a needle in my arm pumping VC yet.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31071
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:19:33 EDT
Subject: an O'rights donation

Today (Sunday) at the Cryonics Institute annual meeting, we had the first
taker on my offer to accept a promissory note for $1,000 at $100/year, and
would immediately send the Venturist O'Rights fund the $1,000.

The donors are Mr. & Mrs. Paul Hagen.

As a reminder, my offer is for up to ten such, or $10,000 total. The note

carries no interest, and should say that if I die with a balance remaining that
balance (remaining payments) will be paid to the Cryonics Institute.

If others want to help now, I repeat my mailing address: Time is growing
short.

Robert Ettinger
35871 Larchwood
Clinton Township MI 48035

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31085
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 09:33:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <pizerdavid@yahoo.com>
Subject: what's up with the Venturists


FD asked about the Venturists: "Is its Board elected by Venturist members, or
does it follow the Alcor model? Its board members seem to be mostly from
Alcor."

DAVID:

At one time our members elected Directors. When we quit publishing our magazine
and stopped having the annual get-togethers interest in the organization went
down. We simply were not doing anything valuable to the cryonics movement at
that time. We had to switch to a Director electing system like Alcor just to
handle things because of lack of interest.


FD asked: "How many Venturist members are there, and what voting rights do they
have?"

DAVID

At one time there were well over 100 cryonicists who were signed up as Venturist
members and paying dues. Since then there have been about 100 other people who
have called themselves Venturists or gotten involved in some way or other.


But as of the last few years we have no one who wants to volunteer to keep
membership records, do billing, and such. Also we need to be championing things
that cryonicists want that the suspension organizations are not doing (to avoid
duplicaiton). I am hoping that if we can add several new members to our Board
who want to do some work that we can revitalize the organization and get enough
energy going that we can switch back to where the members elect the Directors.


We are hoping some qualified people with energy and ideas to advance the
cryonics movement in general will want to serve on our Board.


We have found a place where we can be of help in some ways lately by trying to
help to raise money to get some people suspended.

Let's see where we end up?

David

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31086
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:49:26 EDT
Subject: another O'Rights donation

CI member Guy Gipson, having already donated $200 for O'Rights directly to
CI, has authorized another $800 through my offer and has sent me his note. I
have mailed my check for $800 to the Venturists for their O'Rights fund.

R.E.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31097
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 21:30:33 -0600
From: "Finance Department" <knotwiller@gmail.com>
Subject: David Pizer, the Venturists, Alcor, and Wm O'Rights

------=_Part_24512_19120891.1223263833419
Content-Disposition: inline

Without at the time pointing out the obvious, that David Pizer's position on
the self-perpetuating Venturist Board is a bit incompatible with his
previously stated desire to change the very same thing about Alcor's
self-perpetuating Board, in an earlier post (CryoNet 31088) I challenged Mr.
Pizer to fix this glaring problem.

He answered the same way Alcor has answered about their glaring problem.
With silence.

This doesn't give me a lot of confidence in, or reason to join, the
Venturists. However, I did want to say one thing, regarding the donations
some folks have sent to the Venturists for William O'Rights'
cryopreservation. I view that as a rather separate issue from how their
Board is elected, and want to state here that I have no reason to believe
that donations earmarked for O'Rights will not be properly handled as
intended.

The Venturists is the place to go to help Bill O'Rights. Heck, I'd even say
send money to Alcor if they were collecting it for O'Rights. Just because
an organization leaves a lot to be desired in how it is structured, does not
mean the people in it won't do things right the best they can.

Help Bill out now while you can. Maybe the Ettinger plan (Cryonet 30949)
will appeal to you. The Pavlica plan (CryoNet 30952) I guess expired on
Sept 30. Both of them say they will send the money to the Venturists for
O'Rights, if you meet their stipulated conditions. Or send a check directly
to the Venturists. (The Venturists, C/O Creekside Lodge, 11255 State Route
69, Mayer Arizona, 86333)

Cheers,

FD

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31101
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:55:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <pizerdavid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Venturist Director problems.


FD pointed out that the Venturists position is similar to Alcor - on how
Directors are elected. here is a little history.


Both organizations started out with the members having more say in how the
directors are elected and then changed that for reason of lack of interest.


Both reached points where there was so little member interest in this process
that a temporary change was made so that directors elected directors with the
thinking that as the organizations grew they would change back to members doing
the electing someday. (There is some lingering question of whether that initial
change was made according to laws governing California nonprofits in the case
of Alcor).


Alcor grew and now there are enough members and enough interest that the Alcor
members can elect the directors but the directors won't let them.



Venturism did not grow that large yet. We are trying to get more people to
volunteer to apply to be Directors and then do more work to grow the
organization so that we have more active members so that we can also change back
to members electing directors. We need a couple of volunteers to:
1. Keep a current list of all the members.
2. Send out an electronic magazine to them every month.

3. Bill them and track the money every year, say $10 a year for dues to pay for
the out of pocket expenses of this.

4. Come up with new ideas for things that The Society of Venturism can do for
the cryonics movement to make membership in our organization more needed.

At present we do:
1. Fund raising to help needy cryonics supporters.

2. Supply an "Objection to Autopsy" membership care (Mike Perry's wonderful
work) which might prevent a cryoncists from having to undergo an autopsy, since
the objection is a religious one and since our organization is really recognized
under our 501c3 as being scientific, educational and RELIGIOUS in purposes.
3. We used to put out a magazine on cryonics topics.
4. We used to have annual get-togethers that were a lot of fun.
5. We have a website and discussion email site.



On O'Rights campaign, it is growing slowly. Robert Ettinger's offer to finance
donations for those who need to make them over time was a wonderful plan that
has helped get more money in. What we need now is a re-burst of enthusiasm to
get some more contributions in. We are at $10,000 total now. What we need now
is some more help getting the word out and more people wanting to help Bill get
funded.

Please send in a contribution if you support this idea.

please tell others about this, and write you thoughts and ideas up and share
them on Cryonet or elsewhere.

Please send your donation to:
The Venturists
Care of Creekside Lodge
11255 State Route 69
Mayer Az 86333


or go to our website and use the new Google (better then Paypal) option to send
in your donation.

Thanks to all who have helped so far.

David

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 31110
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:30:44 EDT
Subject: the important questions

British physicist and author Paul Davies (and many others) have named the
Main Questions thus:
The Big Four questions of existence: "Why are the laws of nature what they

are? Why does the universe consist of the things it does? How did those things
arise? How did the universe achieve its organization?"
This is not quite right. The really important questions of existence are:
"Why am I underpaid? Why am I underloved? Why do my feet hurt? Why am I under
sentence of death, and what can I about it?"
R.E.