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Lithium Orotate


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33 replies to this topic

#1 meursault

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 07:59 AM


I'm interested in taking a lithium orotate supplement once a day. My father was bi-polar for most of his life and my sister suffered a bout of depression in college, so I was thinking that maybe "5mg elemental" daily might be a safe preventative measure. Unfortunately, the research for lithium orotate is fairly limited (from what I've seen), and AOR's removal from their Orthocore formulation makes me curious.

Edited by czukles, 08 August 2008 - 07:59 AM.


#2 s123

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 09:21 AM

I take 53mg lithiumcarbonate (10mg elemental lithium) a day. I haven't experienced any side effects yet.

Nematode worms treated with lithium showed an astonishing 46 percent increase in lifespan, raising the tantalizing question of whether humans taking the bipolar treatment are also taking an anti-aging medication.



Source: http://www.scienceag...trunc_sys.shtml

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#3 DukeNukem

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 08:40 PM

Just added lithium to my program, 10mg daily. What finally pushed me over-the-top on this one? Suzanne Summers newest book, Breakthrough. Note, this book is really a series of interviews with respected doctors who've embraced and practice non-pharmaceutical solutions (in addition to conventional medicine).


Edited by DukeNukem, 01 October 2008 - 08:41 PM.


#4 spaceistheplace

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 09:11 PM

I believe lithium orotate is usually prescribed as an anti-psychotic.

After trying it for a short duration I found that it reduced my capacity to think, feel, and perform physically and was left in a stupor much of the time.

Edited by spaceistheplace, 01 October 2008 - 09:12 PM.


#5 DukeNukem

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 09:44 PM

I believe lithium orotate is usually prescribed as an anti-psychotic.

After trying it for a short duration I found that it reduced my capacity to think, feel, and perform physically and was left in a stupor much of the time.


How much were you taking? Typically, people taking it for bipolar or other issues take 150mg +.

#6 sdxl

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 09:45 PM

I believe lithium orotate is usually prescribed as an anti-psychotic.

The typical lithium that is prescribed is usually the carbonate or citrate and is used at higher dosages than a supplement. The orotate is only used in supplements as far as I've seen.
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#7 Ben

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:33 AM

Just added lithium to my program, 10mg daily. What finally pushed me over-the-top on this one? Suzanne Summers newest book, Breakthrough. Note, this book is really a series of interviews with respected doctors who've embraced and practice non-pharmaceutical solutions (in addition to conventional medicine).



A paraphrased quote from the interview:

"Diet soda literally excites the neurons of your brain to death four hours after drinking it. Look at all your hair it's all gone from all the diet soda you drink".

Bit of a nut, no?
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#8 yoyo

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:20 AM

I take 20mg elemental a day. It is neuroprotective, and through the same pathway, protective of hair follicles.

#9 simon007

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 10:40 AM

Which brand of lithium do you guys use?

I found this on Iherb http://www.iherb.com...c...d=6766&at=0.
It's got 5 mg lithium per tablet, was thinking about starting to use this twice a day(morning evening)

Cheers,

Simon

#10 Mixter

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 11:35 AM

If you take anything, then the orotate. It's much more
bioavailable so it already has an effect at 5mg.

Lithium does get toxic at doses far exceeding 150mg, and
it's not healthy long-term, unless you take an orotate from
which you only take 5-10mg per day (and not for bipolar disorder).

It's labelled as nootropic and life extension but I don't know
what to think of it. Didn't notice immediate effects and didn't
expect to, and didn't try it for long b/c of fearing cognitive
impairment from lithium. if anyone has studies proving nootropic
and antiaging properties please post some PMID's ;)

In any case, healthy people should NOT take high doses of
non-orotate lithium, not even for prevention of psychological problems.

#11 simon007

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 05:49 PM

Which brand of lithium do you guys use?

I found this on Iherb http://www.iherb.com...c...d=6766&at=0.
It's got 5 mg lithium per tablet, was thinking about starting to use this twice a day(morning evening)

Cheers,

Simon


Please note, with 5 mg lithium I mean 5 mg of lithium orotate.

Edited by chrono, 26 September 2010 - 02:33 PM.
fixed quote tag


#12 simon007

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 07:24 PM

Here's some recent research http://www.jbc.org/c...ct/M705028200v1

#13 yoyo

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 07:28 PM

This study if availible for free:
http://stroke.ahajou...keaha;34/5/1287
indicating even small amounts of lithium possess strong antiapoptotic properties.

Read this study, also availible for free, on the pathways lithium works on
http://bentham.org/c...ar4-1/003AT.pdf

anther free paper that reviews the evidence:
http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1949906

#14 100YearsToGo

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 07:50 PM

Some of the effects of lithium is because it depletes inositol from the cells. Be carefull don't use too much.
It definitely has good life extension properties as it induces autophagy which clears up the junk from within the cell. This is propably why it protects agains neurodegenerative disorders like HD. t clears the unhealyh HD proteins. I posted about this here. http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=24729

I'm thinking of using a very small amount 5mg together with trehalose (1 or 2 tea spoons in my Colombian Chocolate)

#15 malcasid

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 01:12 AM

Some of the effects of lithium is because it depletes inositol from the cells. Be carefull don't use too much.
It definitely has good life extension properties as it induces autophagy which clears up the junk from within the cell. This is propably why it protects agains neurodegenerative disorders like HD. t clears the unhealyh HD proteins. I posted about this here. http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=24729

I'm thinking of using a very small amount 5mg together with trehalose (1 or 2 tea spoons in my Colombian Chocolate)


What do you use the trehalose for? I did a google search and found that it boosts memory. Is this true?

#16 100YearsToGo

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 01:25 PM

Some of the effects of lithium is because it depletes inositol from the cells. Be carefull don't use too much.
It definitely has good life extension properties as it induces autophagy which clears up the junk from within the cell. This is propably why it protects agains neurodegenerative disorders like HD. t clears the unhealyh HD proteins. I posted about this here. http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=24729

I'm thinking of using a very small amount 5mg together with trehalose (1 or 2 tea spoons in my Colombian Chocolate)


What do you use the trehalose for? I did a google search and found that it boosts memory. Is this true?


I use trehalose because it has autopghagy inducing properties just like lithium. In fact it acts in a similar way as lithium without the inositol depleting effect.:

The following has been showed in studies:

(1) It inhibit lipid and protein misfolding in the cell (Singer and Lindquist 1998)
(2) It clears up allready misfolded lipids and proteins. This improves your condition if you allready have a neuro desease. (autophagy Rubinsztein 2007, 2008)
(3) studies shows it not only work to aid or clear up misfolding proteins in the brain but also in other type of cells, like in occulopharyngeal muscular dystrophy (OPMD). (Davies et al. 2006)

One of the reasons we age according to Aubrey the Grey is that our body fails to clear up the junk inside the cells leading to a host of deseases that breaks us down.
According to rubinsztein Lithium, trehalose and other components may help with this. His studies were limited to neuro deseases but I believe this stuff works in other cells too. I would like to see a study on the liver. If you you want to know more about trehalose I suggest to start another topic.

#17 Mouser

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 07:12 PM

Does anyone have anything to say about orotate vs aspartate?

#18 ramon25

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:20 AM

Has anyone noticed a drop in libido from low doses of lithium? I know in high doses it does but what about lower ones? I am very interested in it but libido is a big one for me.

#19 niner

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 03:44 AM

Which brand of lithium do you guys use?

I found this on Iherb http://www.iherb.com...c...d=6766&at=0.
It's got 5 mg lithium per tablet, was thinking about starting to use this twice a day(morning evening)

Cheers,

Simon

Please note, with 5 mg lithium I mean 5 mg of lithium orotate.

No, you were right the first time. It's 5 mg of elemental lithium, which corresponds to over a hundred mg of lithium orotate. Lithium is very light, orotate is heavy.

#20 niner

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 03:48 AM

If you take anything, then the orotate. It's much more
bioavailable so it already has an effect at 5mg.

Lithium does get toxic at doses far exceeding 150mg, and
it's not healthy long-term, unless you take an orotate from
which you only take 5-10mg per day (and not for bipolar disorder).

Are you sure that the bioavailability of orotate is really any better than carbonate? Lithium toxicity is a function of the concentration of the lithium ion; any of the salt forms could be used safely at low doses- it doesn't have to be orotate.

#21 rwac

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 04:25 AM

Are you sure that the bioavailability of orotate is really any better than carbonate? Lithium toxicity is a function of the concentration of the lithium ion; any of the salt forms could be used safely at low doses- it doesn't have to be orotate.



.<h1 class="title">Rat brain and serum lithium concentrations after acute injections of lithium carbonate and orotate.</h1>Kling MA, Manowitz P, Pollack IW.

Eight hours after intraperitoneal injections of 1.0, 2.0, and 4.0m equiv Li kg-1, the serum and brain lithium concentrations of rats were significantly greater after lithium orotate than after lithium carbonate. While little serum lithium remained at 24 h after injection of 2.0 m equiv kg-1 lithium carbonate, two-thirds of the 2 h serum lithium concentration was present 24h after lithium orotate. Furthermore, the 24 h brain concentration of lithium after lithium orotate was approximately three times greater than that after lithium carbonate. These data suggest the possibility that lower doses of lithium orotate than lithium carbonate may achieve therapeutic brain lithium concentrations and relatively stable serum concentrations.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/pubmed/26768

But this one found no difference

<h1 class="title">Lithium orotate, carbonate and chloride: pharmacokinetics, polyuria in rats.</h1>Smith DF.

1 The pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion administered as lithium orotate were studied in rats. Parallel studies were carried out with lithium carbonate and lithium chloride. 2 No differences in the uptake, distribution and excretion of the lithium ion were observed between lithium orotate, lithium carbonate and lithium chloride after single intraperitoneal, subcutaneous or intragastric injections (0.5-1.0 mEq lithium/kg) or after administration of the lithium salts for 20 days in the food. 3 The findings oppose the notion that the pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion given as lithium orotate differ from lithium chloride or lithium carbonate. 4 Polyuria and polydipsia developed more slowly in rats given lithium orotate than in those given lithium carbonate or lithium chloride, perhaps due to an effect of the orotate anion.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....9?dopt=Abstract

#22 niner

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 04:57 AM

Are you sure that the bioavailability of orotate is really any better than carbonate? Lithium toxicity is a function of the concentration of the lithium ion; any of the salt forms could be used safely at low doses- it doesn't have to be orotate.

.<h1 class="title">Rat brain and serum lithium concentrations after acute injections of lithium carbonate and orotate.</h1>Kling MA, Manowitz P, Pollack IW.

Eight hours after intraperitoneal injections of 1.0, 2.0, and 4.0m equiv Li kg-1, the serum and brain lithium concentrations of rats were significantly greater after lithium orotate than after lithium carbonate. While little serum lithium remained at 24 h after injection of 2.0 m equiv kg-1 lithium carbonate, two-thirds of the 2 h serum lithium concentration was present 24h after lithium orotate. Furthermore, the 24 h brain concentration of lithium after lithium orotate was approximately three times greater than that after lithium carbonate. These data suggest the possibility that lower doses of lithium orotate than lithium carbonate may achieve therapeutic brain lithium concentrations and relatively stable serum concentrations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/pubmed/26768

But this one found no difference

<h1 class="title">Lithium orotate, carbonate and chloride: pharmacokinetics, polyuria in rats.</h1>Smith DF.

1 The pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion administered as lithium orotate were studied in rats. Parallel studies were carried out with lithium carbonate and lithium chloride. 2 No differences in the uptake, distribution and excretion of the lithium ion were observed between lithium orotate, lithium carbonate and lithium chloride after single intraperitoneal, subcutaneous or intragastric injections (0.5-1.0 mEq lithium/kg) or after administration of the lithium salts for 20 days in the food. 3 The findings oppose the notion that the pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion given as lithium orotate differ from lithium chloride or lithium carbonate. 4 Polyuria and polydipsia developed more slowly in rats given lithium orotate than in those given lithium carbonate or lithium chloride, perhaps due to an effect of the orotate anion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....9?dopt=Abstract

The first was only intraperitoneal, and used larger doses than the second. The intraperitoneal route has some similarity to transdermal dosing, where a more hydrophobic counterion like orotate would help the lithium get in. However, I would expect that for a small oral dose (and maybe even a large one), you wouldn't see much difference between forms due to ionization in the stomach. The first study looked at brain concentration, while it isn't clear that the second one did, but I'd guess not. The brain concentration is a pretty compelling argument for orotate, if the effect actually occurs with oral dosing. OTOH, too much orotate may be harmful. I cut back on my mag orotate after reading a report on orotate from European regulators. "Too much" was six grams, IIRC. A 5mg elemental dose of Li would be far less than that, but if someone wanted to take a really large dose of lithium, they might get into trouble with orotate. For example, 500mg elemental lithium would need over 11 grams of orotate counterion! Lithium is a really weird element. We aren't used to metals that weigh less per mole than most gasses.

Edited by niner, 20 March 2010 - 03:24 AM.

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#23 MooPuck

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 07:06 PM

I have been prescribed 1200mg Lithium Carbonate for sever bipolar disorder (mostly the mania, I don't suffer much from the depressive side). I am years into my therapy now and have recently started taking Lithium Orotate INSTEAD of my Lithium Carbonate. I slowly weaned myself from the Carbonate (replacing it with its elemental Lithium Equiv at half the dose, i.e. 1200 MG Lithium Carbonate = + / - 120 mg of elemental Lithium. Replaced That with 1250 MG of Lithium Orotate = 50 MG of elemental Lithium)

Note: I am using Doctor's Best brand at 125mg lithium orotate (5mg elemental lithium per tab)

Doing our math has me at 10 tabs a day. Believe it or not (and those of you who are extreme's, like I am, may have more trouble believing than those who are interested in neuro protectives or minor mood stabilization) I am completely free of my prescription and able to take natural, OTC medication instead.

I am grateful that it is available, but am not sure if I am pushing the limit for toxicity. I have been on it for months now and have no complaints but have also not been in for lithium levels, so I am planning on doing so in the near future.

I have no complaints at all (not saying that I am issue free, I just don't notice anything to complain about) and can report no side-effects. There are sites that claim NO SIDE EFFECTS WHATSOEVER, but until that is verifiable, I would work with your physician.

If you are not chronically medicated, you may not be able to appreciate the freedom of not having to go in for regular labs, and repeated "so how are you feeling" visits that, if you don't attend, you don't get your RX renewed. This is available at Amazon and I am stocked up for a year!

thnx for your time
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#24 maggieW

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:35 AM

my brother swears by lithium orotate. he's bipolar and it is really the only thing that's really helped stabilize his moods. he reacted badly to the carbonate form

#25 Logic

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:38 PM

I have experimented with 1mg/day (orotate?) , 2mg/day (morning-night), 4mg/day (morning-night),
1: for a week: Noticed nothing.
2: Perhaps less compulsive and more relaxed.
4: I only tried for a day and noticed no difference to 2.


I wish there were more studies on the dosage best for neuroprotection?

#26 Justchill

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:38 AM

I have experimented with 1mg/day (orotate?) , 2mg/day (morning-night), 4mg/day (morning-night),
1: for a week: Noticed nothing.
2: Perhaps less compulsive and more relaxed.
4: I only tried for a day and noticed no difference to 2.


I wish there were more studies on the dosage best for neuroprotection?


2. more relaxed yes... also a bit dizzy after higher dosage

#27 blood

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:51 PM

Is it possible that there could be a detrimental interaction between lithium and metformin?

After two weeks of metformin, I noticed an uncomfortable feeling in my body (a vague pain in roughly the area I assume my kidneys are located) which occurred in the evening sometime after I'd taken my 'before bed' supplements. This went on for a week or so until I dropped my evening time supplements, and the problem went away.

Things I was taking in the late evening include: lithium orotate, sam-e, venlafaxine, various herbs/ polyphenols.

http://spectrum.diab...t/19/4/202.full

Metformin is a cationic (positively charged) molecule and may compete with other cationic drugs for renal secretion through organic cation transporters in the kidneys.



Does lithium qualify as a cationic molecule? I can't find any advice against mixing the two, though.

I was also taking a bit of propranolol at the time (supposedly not ideal to mix it with metformin).

Edited by blood, 07 August 2013 - 12:55 PM.


#28 FocusPocus

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 04:23 PM

I've always been apprehensive of Li prescription pills as a mood stabilizer, since i believe it will slow me down. (im mild bipolar 2)

Did any of you guys taking low dose Li orotate supplements find any decrease in cognition/edge/intuition?

Edited by FocusPocus, 16 August 2013 - 04:23 PM.


#29 hani

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:50 AM

For me, I found an increase in cognition/memory. Lithium orotate has helped me sleep better, even if my anxiety levels are high.

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#30 FocusPocus

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:37 AM

Thanks for the reply. Were you diagnosed with bipolar disease anytime?

im bipolar 2 and i dont want to lose my hypomanic edge, and i was wondering if Li orotate would negate the only "benefit" that im experiencing from this disease, if i used it for the calming effects.




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